Sash and case windows

[Morgan]

Good afternoon,

 

some of you may recall a thread I started back on the 2nd of April about mold in a bathroom?  I received several very helpful replies and, in part due to this, we won our dispute.

 

I have another question.  

 

We’ve spent some time on Google but are unable to come up with any kind of definitive answer so I thought I would ask on here, in the hope that someone may have knowledge, or indeed expertise, on these types of windows.

 

Basically, what we are trying to find out is:

 

1. How long (roughly) would it take for the window to deteriorate enough for the glass to loosen itself from the frame?

 

2. Would there have been signs, well in advance, that this was going to happen?

 

3. Could condensation and lack of ventilation cause the window frame to rot and the paint to flake away?

 

The window was classed as ‘in very good condition’ and then, some months later was deemed as ‘needing replaced’.

 

We’re pretty sure this didn’t just happen overnight!

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[TheOak88]

Have the window seals broken? Is that what is causing the glass to loosen from the frame?

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

Have the window seals broken? Is that what is causing the glass to loosen from the frame?

Not that we know of.

 

We don’t live there and are having to go by an inspection report we had done.

 

Thanks for your reply. 👍

[ri Alban]

I take it the radiators are on permanently. 

[felix]

39 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Good afternoon,

 

some of you may recall a thread I started back on the 2nd of April about mold in a bathroom?  I received several very helpful replies and, in part due to this, we won our dispute.

 

I have another question.  

 

We’ve spent some time on Google but are unable to come up with any kind of definitive answer so I thought I would ask on here, in the hope that someone may have knowledge, or indeed expertise, on these types of windows.

 

Basically, what we are trying to find out is:

 

1. How long (roughly) would it take for the window to deteriorate enough for the glass to loosen itself from the frame? Depends. Take it the wood's rotten ? I'm sure the New Town's full of original sash/case frames 200 years old..if treated/maintained..10 yrs if untreated/non-maiuntained and consitently wet.

 

2. Would there have been signs, well in advance, that this was going to happen? Yes

 

3. Could condensation and lack of ventilation cause the window frame to rot and the paint to flake away? Yes - on  inside of course.

 

The window was classed as ‘in very good condition’ and then, some months later was deemed as ‘needing replaced’. Months is too soon for a good window to become bad. Something not right .

NB If the glass is loose;  might be just the beads or mouldings that are rotten . They hold the glass in place in traditional windows Easily replcaed, but just guessing. Put up or pm a photo.

 

We’re pretty sure this didn’t just happen overnight!

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Morgan]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I take it the radiators are on permanently. 

We can only guess so, ri.

 

We don’t live there but the tenants have already damaged the bathroom with mold due to lack of ventilation and excess  heat, so we think they must like the warmth!

[merrymac]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

We can only guess so, ri.

 

We don’t live there but the tenants have already damaged the bathroom with mold due to lack of ventilation and excess  heat, so we think they must like the warmth!

Probably growing cannabis Morgan.

Happened to me in a property that i used to let out.

disappeared leaving a massive lecy bill, and the only trace was abandoned industrial size air fresheners😨

[Morgan]

2 hours ago, felix said:

 

Thanks for your very comprehensive and insightful post, Felix.

 

I will download the photos from our inspection report and post them/PM them later this evening.

 

Much appreciated, I am indebted to you.

 

Morgan

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, merrymac said:

Probably growing cannabis Morgan.

Happened to me in a property that i used to let out.

disappeared leaving a massive lecy bill, and the only trace was abandoned industrial size air fresheners😨

That did cross my mind, Mac.  

[merrymac]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

That did cross my mind, Mac.  

Hot damp conditions is what is required.

A lot more common than you might think

[Morgan]

7 minutes ago, merrymac said:

Hot damp conditions is what is required.

A lot more common than you might think

We’re going to get these b@stards!

[Morgan]

2 hours ago, felix said:

 

Here we are:

 

 

[merrymac]

24 minutes ago, Morgan said:

We’re going to get these b@stards!

Get in there Morgan

[maroondevo52]

Some big birds eaten all the putty.

[Sooperstar]

2 hours ago, Morgan said:

Here we are:

 

 

That's worse than Murrayburn Primary School 1993.

[Janbo1874]

10 minutes ago, maroondevo52 said:

Some big birds eaten all the putty.

Not only eaten the putty but got the taste for the wood too.

Seriously if that window was passed as in good condition in recent memory then Peter Rachman is still alive.

It may have been filled up at sometime but I dread to think what the outside looks like.

Replace and hope the others aren't in the same nick.

[Janbo1874]

4 hours ago, Sooperstar said:

That's worse than Murrayburn Primary School 1993.

I went to Murrayburn in the early seventies and the windows were not hanging like that.

The girls were ...never mind the bogs...

 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Whoever did the survey on the windows seen you coming you could get a second opinion 

The frames and glass looks like they have seperated maybe by force of opening and closing too hard 

 

1- it would take a good number of years to deteriorate 

 

2- yes, some weathered signs to beg with 

 

3- Yes but it would have to be severe over many

years without any protection on the frame's 

You could try filling the gaps with putty or sealant for a temporary fix yourself to keep them watertight at a fraction of the cost to replace them 

I'm neither up nor down on windows 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by The Maroon Pound

[merrymac]

1 hour ago, The Maroon Pound said:

Whoever did the survey on the windows seen you coming you could get a second opinion 

The frames and glass looks like they have seperated maybe by force of opening and closing too hard 

 

1- it would take a good number of years to deteriorate 

 

2- yes, some weathered signs to beg with 

 

3- Yes but it would have to be severe over many

years without any protection on the frame's 

You could try filling the gaps with putty or sealant for a temporary fix yourself to keep them watertight at a fraction of the cost to replace them 

I'm neither up nor down on windows 

 

 

I know i'm the same - they can be a  right pane sometimes though. (or a left one ) 

[Cruyff]

I honestly don't think that damage has been caused by condensation Morgan, because it is just the bottom rail that is knackered, if it were condensation, the astragals above would have been all flaky too as would the internal cill.

 

That damage is most likely from water ingress, probably due to the putty going around the glazing and water has been sitting on that bottom rail. 

 

That window should be restored, it doesn't look like it needs to be fully replaced. 

[felix]

15 hours ago, Morgan said:

Thanks for your very comprehensive and insightful post, Felix.

 

I will download the photos from our inspection report and post them/PM them later this evening.

 

Much appreciated, I am indebted to you.

 

Morgan

 

No worries.

From the photos, it looks like a condensation/water problem, over time.

The bottom rail  has been covered up with a moulding, now removed, to reveal the rot you can see. You can tell this from the paint line on the glass, and would maybe explain why someone thought the window was ok.  Now stripped, it's clearly not .  

Having said that, it looks repairable. If damaage is confined to the bottom rail only, wouldn't have thought new window required. 

[TheOak88]

Would love to know who inspected those windows and claimed they are in good condition 

[Morgan]

15 hours ago, Janbo1874 said:

Not only eaten the putty but got the taste for the wood too.

Seriously if that window was passed as in good condition in recent memory then Peter Rachman is still alive.

It may have been filled up at sometime but I dread to think what the outside looks like.

Replace and hope the others aren't in the same nick.

 

4 hours ago, The Maroon Pound said:

Whoever did the survey on the windows seen you coming you could get a second opinion 

The frames and glass looks like they have seperated maybe by force of opening and closing too hard 

 

1- it would take a good number of years to deteriorate 

 

2- yes, some weathered signs to beg with 

 

3- Yes but it would have to be severe over many

years without any protection on the frame's 

You could try filling the gaps with putty or sealant for a temporary fix yourself to keep them watertight at a fraction of the cost to replace them 

I'm neither up nor down on windows 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I honestly don't think that damage has been caused by condensation Morgan, because it is just the bottom rail that is knackered, if it were condensation, the astragals above would have been all flaky too as would the internal cill.

 

That damage is most likely from water ingress, probably due to the putty going around the glazing and water has been sitting on that bottom rail. 

 

That window should be restored, it doesn't look like it needs to be fully replaced. 

 

1 hour ago, felix said:

 

No worries.

From the photos, it looks like a condensation/water problem, over time.

The bottom rail  has been covered up with a moulding, now removed, to reveal the rot you can see. You can tell this from the paint line on the glass, and would maybe explain why someone thought the window was ok.  Now stripped, it's clearly not .  

Having said that, it looks repairable. If damaage is confined to the bottom rail only, wouldn't have thought new window required. 

 

1 hour ago, TheOak88 said:

Would love to know who inspected those windows and claimed they are in good condition 

Many thanks for your helpful posts, lads.  👍

 

We have taken your comments on board and will be approaching both the company that said it definitely needed replaced, and our property managers who inspected it and said it was in ‘really good condition’.

 

As I said to Felix yesterday, I am indebted to you all and will let you know what the eventual outcome is.

 

Cheers,

 

Morgs

[Alex]

Can I jump on this thread and ask a vaguely related question.  I stay in a tenament flat,  I know that roof repairs are shared between all the flats, but if it's leaks coming into the top flat skylight and roof exit boiler flue, would that still be a communal repair?

[ri Alban]

On 06/06/2021 at 12:43, TheOak88 said:

Would love to know who inspected those windows and claimed they are in good condition 

Morgan.

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

Can I jump on this thread and ask a vaguely related question.  I stay in a tenament flat,  I know that roof repairs are shared between all the flats, but if it's leaks coming into the top flat skylight and roof exit boiler flue, would that still be a communal repair?

All depends what the factor says. Probably better getting it done yourself for good neighbourly relations. 👍

 

Skylight, community 

Your boiler, solo. But it probably all comes under communal. 

 

[Harry Potter]

On 06/06/2021 at 12:43, TheOak88 said:

Would love to know who inspected those windows and claimed they are in good condition 

Had better windows in the Flour mill prior to getting knocked down.

[Governor Tarkin]

46 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

All depends what the factor says. Probably better getting it done yourself for good neighbourly relations. 👍

 

Skylight, community 

Your boiler, solo. But it probably all comes under communal. 

 

 

It depends, ri. Some of the old tenement loft spaces have been taken over by the top floor flat, so the skylight may be the responsibility of the top flat owner.

I looked into it briefly a number of years ago, and I'm sure the deal was that if you took on the roof space with the agreement of the other flat owners and the council, the roof above became the sole responsibility of the top flat.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It depends, ri. Some of the old tenement loft spaces have been taken over by the top floor flat, so the skylight may be the responsibility of the top flat owner.

I looked into it briefly a number of years ago, and I'm sure the deal was that if you took on the roof space with the agreement of the other flat owners and the council, the roof above became the sole responsibility of the top flat.

Agreed. It was just he said skylight, now if its velux or similar, that's definitely theirs. 

[Governor Tarkin]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Agreed. It was just he said skylight, now if its velux or similar, that's definitely theirs. 

 

👍

[the general]

As a slight aside I found that Georgian Windows in Edinburgh are very good for installing or fixing sash and case windows

Reasonable prices too

[Morgan]

8 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Morgan.

I wouldn’t know a window from a feckin door, ri.

 

[Ribble]

Just fix it yourself using the below handy guide

 

https://fb.watch/68xr2BFFg0/

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Morgan said:

I wouldn’t know a window from a feckin door, ri.

 

[Alex]

Cheers for the replies, it's definitely a skylight rather than the main cupola (sp?)  I'm not in the top flat. that's managed by an agency who are generally a complete pain in the arse and rather than getting a couple of quotes as the stair usually does, they have "their guy" booked in before even consulting the rest of us. The quote was submitted by text so it's all just seems deliberately vague. I'll dig my heels in for a bit yet to get more info.

[Governor Tarkin]

3 hours ago, Alex said:

Cheers for the replies, it's definitely a skylight rather than the main cupola (sp?)  I'm not in the top flat. that's managed by an agency who are generally a complete pain in the arse and rather than getting a couple of quotes as the stair usually does, they have "their guy" booked in before even consulting the rest of us. The quote was submitted by text so it's all just seems deliberately vague. I'll dig my heels in for a bit yet to get more info.

 

Sometimes the agencies get preferential rates from the tradesmen they regularly employ, so they might actually work out the cheapest - and any savings from organising it yourself can be minimal by the time you split it between all the flats in the block. Getting folk to stump up can be a ballache too. Probably worth looking into it anyway, though.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Sometimes the agencies get preferential rates from the tradesmen they regularly employ, so they might actually work out the cheapest - and any savings from organising it yourself can be minimal by the time you split it between all the flats in the block. Getting folk to stump up can be a ballache too. Probably worth looking into it anyway, though.

 

I think that's what's annoying me, they've refused to pay for stuff in the past and it's been easier just to pay their share myself than argue the toss whether it's the owner/agency or the tenant that's responsible.

[Morgan]

On 05/06/2021 at 19:07, felix said:

 

Hi Felix,

 

I’m still on about this!

 

First of all, before I bore you with all the details, do you actually work with windows and window renovations?

 

Thanks, Morgan

 

 

[felix]

12 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Hi Felix,

 

I’m still on about this!

 

First of all, before I bore you with all the details, do you actually work with windows and window renovations?

 

Thanks, Morgan

 

 

No worries Morgan.

I've been involved in some sash & case window refurbishment projects on historic buildings - more from a project management/architectural side, but it involves surveying & reporting on damage, and decribing repairs/replacement; so may be able to offer a broad view.

Send a pm if it's too niche for a messageboard.

[Morgan]

42 minutes ago, felix said:

No worries Morgan.

I've been involved in some sash & case window refurbishment projects on historic buildings - more from a project management/architectural side, but it involves surveying & reporting on damage, and decribing repairs/replacement; so may be able to offer a broad view.

Send a pm if it's too niche for a messageboard.

Thanks.

 

I’ll send you a PM in a wee while.

[Alex]

Just bumping this to see if anyone has any recommendations for the best undercoat/primer and paint for painting exterior wooden window frames?

 

Looking online Dulux Weathershield seems to get good reviews.

 

Cheers

 

PS for anyone that's interested I didn't hear any more from the agency about the roof repair after I asked why they were trying to split the bill between two flats and not the 8 in the stair.

[maroondevo52]

 

8 hours ago, Alex said:

Just bumping this to see if anyone has any recommendations for the best undercoat/primer and paint for painting exterior wooden window frames?

 

Looking online Dulux Weathershield seems to get good reviews.

Dulux Weathershield is good but over the past few years I've been using Jotun Demi Dekk (Ultimate) and can honestly say it's the best and easiest to apply exterior paint I've ever used, I got mine from the Paint Shed in Edinburgh but would imagine most good trade retailers will be able to get it for you.

[Alex]

22 hours ago, maroondevo52 said:

 

Dulux Weathershield is good but over the past few years I've been using Jotun Demi Dekk (Ultimate) and can honestly say it's the best and easiest to apply exterior paint I've ever used, I got mine from the Paint Shed in Edinburgh but would imagine most good trade retailers will be able to get it for you.

Great, cheers, I'll look into that one.