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Manager v Head Coach


Spellczech

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Spellczech

Looking forward to next season, I'm a bit concerned about a bit of noise I've heard about Neilson acting as a manager last season and taking an hands-off approach during the week and letting his coaches do the training, then he comes in and picks the team...Is this the case?

 

It sounds very similar to what Levein was doing, and could well be why it took us until match day 23 of 27 to find a formation that suited the squad? 

 

It really doesn't take Einstein to understand that doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different outcome is not the way forward...

 

Robbie was a very good Head Coach - we all saw the benefits of his triple-sessions and the superior fitness this generated. I have to say that the last thing the club needs is another manager who is hands-off and aloof from the squad...

 

I've said previously that if Budge is to have a purpose for staying on then she must demonstrate that she's learned at least something about football in the last 7 years...Are we at risk of going into another season blind with a manager who was a far better Head Coach and a bunch of Rangers-y banter merchants doing to the day-to-day?

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Vlad Magic

So you thought you would start a thread based on nothing but hearsay?

 

Sounds sensible to me.

Edited by Vlad Magic
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He mentioned it on the open goal podcast - where he spoke very well I thought.  He was asked if he takes all the training sessions and he replied that he is aware that if he was taking every session, talking to the players constantly, that when he has to say something important - during or before a game - the players may not listen as carefully as if he talks less by letting the coaches take more of the sessions.

 

The interview was a good insight into RN's approach.  He spoke openly and came across as a decent guy, humble, and articulate.  It didn't strike me as anything to worry about.

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P.s. Savage talked about working at Norwich and Preston on a podcast recently. Apparently Alex Neil does very little im delivering sessions. He leaves it to a coach - who I think now has the Preston job.

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Generally a pretty normal way to operate, hard to picture Sir Alex in his tracky bottoms leading the beep test

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Vlad Magic

I’m actually impressed at the number of contentious subjects the OP managed to cram into a few paragraphs!!

 

Robbie not taking every training session. Albeit hearsay.

 

Very similar to Levein. Always good for an argument that one.

 

Chuck in a sneaky “never works out doing the same thing twice”. Based on no factual evidence.

 

Robbie now “hands off” in his management style. Only took a few paragraphs for this to be passed off as fact.

 

Finish off with a good old prediction of doom with a “hearts run by the Bears” for good measure.

 

Bit of its Budges fault just to mix it all up good and proper.

 

Congratulations Spell Czech!!!

 

Worst OP this year.

 

 

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Did Robbie not come out last week snd say as such?

The players are bored of him, he is going to be around less at training etc etc

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Howdy Doody Jambo

So Robbie will only be as good as his staff, it's all about the results 

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lost in space
33 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

P.s. Savage talked about working at Norwich and Preston on a podcast recently. Apparently Alex Neil does very little im delivering sessions. He leaves it to a coach - who I think now has the Preston job.

So Neill left coach to do the training sessions - and Neill got sacked with coach now doing the manager/ head coach job.

Neilson going to take a less hands-on approach with coach doing Neilsons job.

I like the way this is going.

Except the one smart thing Neilson has done is appoint 2 coaches (Crawford and now McCulloch) who appear to be totally unable to take on head coach/ manager job.

I am not sure if Neilson is just very poor at picking assistants or deliberately picking talentless assistants.

Difficult to know...........

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The delegation model depends on the quality of coaches though. Hasn't been particularly great this season has it? Did Neilson take training in the lead up to the Brora game I wonder.

 

Stendel was committed and worked directly with the players to try bring the best out of them - and he did with Bozanic and Moore as examples (goalkeeper story aside). Whether you liked Stendel doesn't matter, he was shouting from the touch line what he wanted and the players knew because he told and showed them in training.

 

We'll see how the start of this season goes and if it is a familiar story.

 

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2 minutes ago, lost in space said:

So Neill left coach to do the training sessions - and Neill got sacked with coach now doing the manager/ head coach job.

Neilson going to take a less hands-on approach with coach doing Neilsons job.

I like the way this is going.

Except the one smart thing Neilson has done is appoint 2 coaches (Crawford and now McCulloch) who appear to be totally unable to take on head coach/ manager job.

I am not sure if Neilson is just very poor at picking assistants or deliberately picking talentless assistants.

Difficult to know...........

 

Some great assistants and coaches do not make great managers, nothing mindblowing about that.

 

My comment on Neil was to provide an example of a manager not taking the training sessions. Neil had some success with Norwich as far as I'm aware.  There have probably been many successful managers using this model.

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lost in space
33 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

 

Some great assistants and coaches do not make great managers, nothing mindblowing about that.

 

My comment on Neil was to provide an example of a manager not taking the training sessions. Neil had some success with Norwich as far as I'm aware.  There have probably been many successful managers using this model.

Yes, I certainly accept all of your points.

 

Perhaps though, Neill allowed a talented assistant coach to take over an important role and the club realised that maybe it was the talented assistant who should take the club forward.

What I don't know is whether Neilson has selected talentless assistants because he is poor at selecting OR whether Neilson has selected them because he knows they have not the ability to replace him.

 

As I said, difficult to know...........

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10 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Yes, I certainly accept all of your points.

 

Perhaps though, Neill allowed a talented assistant coach to take over an important role and the club realised that maybe it was the talented assistant who should take the club forward.

What I don't know is whether Neilson has selected talentless assistants because he is poor at selecting OR whether Neilson has selected them because he knows they have not the ability to replace him.

 

As I said, difficult to know...........


Some amount of reaching going on with this post imo

Edited by BigAlim
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lost in space
1 minute ago, Rave MacPherson said:

How do you know the coaches are talentless? 

Are you asking re Crawford who could hardly string a sentence together in interviews and was sacked/released from Dunfermline after signing Wighton and losing to Raith Rovers?

OR

Are you asking about McCulloch, who likes to play the clown who let's face it, isn't going to win Mastermind and hasn't been allowed in front of a camera?

 

Neilson must have known that Crawford would never replace him and that McCulloch (who may be a decent coach but is a long way from being a head coach in Prem) is hardly likely to soon.

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Byyy The Light
13 minutes ago, lost in space said:

Are you asking re Crawford who could hardly string a sentence together in interviews and was sacked/released from Dunfermline after signing Wighton and losing to Raith Rovers?

OR

Are you asking about McCulloch, who likes to play the clown who let's face it, isn't going to win Mastermind and hasn't been allowed in front of a camera?

 

Neilson must have known that Crawford would never replace him and that McCulloch (who may be a decent coach but is a long way from being a head coach in Prem) is hardly likely to soon.


Crawford resigned due to circumstances in his personal life. 

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lost in space
5 minutes ago, Rave MacPherson said:

I don't know which coaches you are referring to. You are the one that stated Neilson had selected talentless assistants, i just wanted to know why you suggested they are talentless.

I've never been to a training session to see how the coaches handle it, i take it you must have been to a few? 

I shall clarify for you.

What I am saying is that Neilson has selected 2 assistants at Hearts, neither of whom seem capable of stepping up to Head Caoch at this time (or possibly ever).

As assistant coaches they may be okay but they don't have the talent to take Neilsons job.

Maybe part of the reason he selected them.

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lost in space
4 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:


Crawford resigned due to circumstances in his personal life. 

If that is the case, I am very sorry to hear it. I wish him well.

It doesn't change my opinion on Neilsons possible selection of assistants.

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lost in space
2 minutes ago, Rave MacPherson said:

Ok so i will ask again, how do you know they don't have the talent to take his job? 

Because, like Cathro, many coaches don't have the EXTRA talents required (man management/ media handling etc). More is required of a head coach.

Actually, don't think Neilson has all of the talents either.........

 

 

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DalryJambo

Jeffries only really turned up to training on Fridays or if the media were there. Billy Brown did all the coaching. 

 

Jeffries did however travel all over the place scouting players and making contact with agents. That worked out well for him as well. 

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lost in space
9 minutes ago, Rave MacPherson said:

We aren't talking about cathro or about many coaches though, are we. We are talking about specific coaches that you have deemed talentless but yet cannot or will not say why. 

I was trying to make it simple for you. I will try again.

I mentioned Cathro as an obvious example of someone who did not have the talents to be a head coach.

It was obvious to most that he did not have what was required for that job.

I do not believe the other 2 presently have ALL the talents for the head coach of a Prem team. 

You may disagree - fine.

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lost in space
Just now, Rave MacPherson said:

Thanks for making it simple for me. Thats much appreciated 👍🏻

Now, if possible, could you explain why you labelled our coaches as talentless? Do you understand what I'm asking you? I'm sorry, i tried to make the question easier for you to understand but its fairly basic as it is. 

 

I have explained more than once.

I did try to explain using simple words.

I have given examples of why I don't think the 2 assistants have the talents to be - or will be head coaches any time soon.

If you still can't understand, please get somebody else to explain to you.

 

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lost in space
4 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Takes the plaudits if we win. Hides behind his assistants if we don't. Very clever Mr. Nielsen. 

He's not that clever. To be fair he doesn't blame assistants. But he is not likely to be replaced by them either.

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lost in space
1 minute ago, Rave MacPherson said:

No you haven't. Nowhere have you backed up your theory that our coaches are talentless. You've mentioned cathro a couple of times, for no apparent reason. 

 

 

I don't think I can help you any further.

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that either could be head coach at Hearts??

If so - ask a few Hearts fans if they agree.

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Spellczech
10 hours ago, Rave MacPherson said:

No, i haven't suggested anything, seriously or otherwise.

I am asking you to explain why you stated our coaches were talentless. What made you reach that conclusion? 

Why can you not answer that question? 

I guess we can only judge the coaches on the last season where the players didn't look like they really knew what they were meant to be doing, which wasn't good for the largest and best paid squad in the league. They didn't look comfortable or confident and seemed happier passing the ball backwards than forwards. They didn't look as fit as the squad which walked a Championship containing Rangers and Hibs...They lost to Alloa and Brora Rangers in the cups...I wouldn't say they are talentless, but I'm not convinced that having banter merchants doing the day to day is as good as having the likes of Billy Brown working the squad...

 

I've not been as impressed with Robbie 2.0 as I was first time round, despite the fact he communicates better with the press- he speaks rather than mutters and makes eye contact now, but what he says doesn't actually tie in with what we saw on the pitch...it did first time round, even if he looked like he was squirming when he said it.

 

 

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Rick James

Think Robbie might've been a bit too keen to impress when he came back last summer hence why he rolled his sleeves up and got stuck in with everything.

 

Forrest and McCulloch seem highly rated as coaches, and we paid money to bring them in, so I fully support his decision to delegate training to them, allowing for Robbie to focus more on team selection, preparation for matchdays etc. 

 

Problem with Levein doing it, was he delegated training to McPhee etc. While he was overseeing other departments of the club as DoF. Neilson is still very much manager, and I've no doubt will be shadowing every training session, even getting involved if he has to.

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Bazzas right boot
7 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I guess we can only judge the coaches on the last season where the players didn't look like they really knew what they were meant to be doing, which wasn't good for the largest and best paid squad in the league. They didn't look comfortable or confident and seemed happier passing the ball backwards than forwards. They didn't look as fit as the squad which walked a Championship containing Rangers and Hibs...They lost to Alloa and Brora Rangers in the cups...I wouldn't say they are talentless, but I'm not convinced that having banter merchants doing the day to day is as good as having the likes of Billy Brown working the squad...

 

I've not been as impressed with Robbie 2.0 as I was first time round, despite the fact he communicates better with the press- he speaks rather than mutters and makes eye contact now, but what he says doesn't actually tie in with what we saw on the pitch...it did first time round, even if he looked like he was squirming when he said it.

 

 

 

 

The players didn't know what they were doing but won the league and were 2 penalties from winning the SC?

 

 

 

 

 

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Bazzas right boot
11 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Takes the plaudits if we win. Hides behind his assistants if we don't. Very clever Mr. Nielsen. 

 

When has he done this?

 

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Bazzas right boot
14 hours ago, Rave MacPherson said:

I heard he just picks the names out of a hat 10 mins before kick off. 

Not sure if this is true, just what i heard. 

 

 

Utter shite.

 

 

He reads the JKB massive comments on the matchday thread then picks the complete opposite. 

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Bazzas right boot
13 hours ago, kila said:

The delegation model depends on the quality of coaches though. Hasn't been particularly great this season has it? Did Neilson take training in the lead up to the Brora game I wonder.

 

Stendel was committed and worked directly with the players to try bring the best out of them - and he did with Bozanic and Moore as examples (goalkeeper story aside). Whether you liked Stendel doesn't matter, he was shouting from the touch line what he wanted and the players knew because he told and showed them in training.

 

We'll see how the start of this season goes and if it is a familiar story.

 

 

You can't be hinting that Robbie's way  wasn't great but Stendels way worked......

 

In what world is a method that takes a Hearts team from 10th to 12th and  4 points adrift at the bottom of the the league good?

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, kila said:

The delegation model depends on the quality of coaches though. Hasn't been particularly great this season has it? Did Neilson take training in the lead up to the Brora game I wonder.

 

Stendel was committed and worked directly with the players to try bring the best out of them - and he did with Bozanic and Moore as examples (goalkeeper story aside). Whether you liked Stendel doesn't matter, he was shouting from the touch line what he wanted and the players knew because he told and showed them in training.

 

We'll see how the start of this season goes and if it is a familiar story.

 

I think there’s a balance.  A manager needs to be present on training days to take it all in. I’d imagine the best managers worked that way by standing in the background and taking it all in, interjecting when need be. 
 

Like you say, it’s also about surrounding yourself with coaches and assistants on the same page and who know what they are doing themselves by implementing what the manager wants players to work at. 
 

There’s no way a manager can’t be present. On the odd occasion, of course he won’t be. There’ll be times he lets his coaches have time on their own with the players.   

Edited by Debut 4
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A_A wehatethehibs

Doing the coaching and making the decisions about squads and team selection etc are 2 separate jobs basically. 
 

But both are so important to get right. The buck stops with the manager, gets the blame even if it’s the coaching side that’s gone wrong, ultimately he’s responsible for overseeing it. 
 

It seems every great manager is often standing on the shoulders of a great coach behind the scenes.
 

So one of the concerns is, are we convinced if Lee McCulloch that man? Is he good as a coach? Is he inspiring the players creativity and helping their confidence improving their skills day to day? No idea what his reputation is like. Certainly it doesn’t really seem like many players have improved much this year, though there were some improvements late in the season. Or Gordon Forrest, with his background in the MLS. Is he top top quality as a coach? It’s not just about Neilson in isolation, it’s his whole staff and the dynamic there. 
 

OP is right to say, from 2014-17 our squad was fit as butchers dogs and very hard working, indicating they were being coached well by Neilson and Crawford. We were never outworked in any games and only ever lost by the odd goal, winning a hell of lot more games than losing. Though the same can basically be said last season. 
 

End of the day it’s next season where all the judgement will take place. There is no wiggle room for poor performances or failure in cup competitions. The pressure from the fans is immense this group of coaches led by Neilson have got to get a real good team together to get the fans back on side. Seriously good. 

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Rogue Daddy
15 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Looking forward to next season, I'm a bit concerned about a bit of noise I've heard about Neilson acting as a manager last season and taking an hands-off approach during the week and letting his coaches do the training, then he comes in and picks the team...Is this the case?

 

It sounds very similar to what Levein was doing, and could well be why it took us until match day 23 of 27 to find a formation that suited the squad? 

 

It really doesn't take Einstein to understand that doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different outcome is not the way forward...

 

Robbie was a very good Head Coach - we all saw the benefits of his triple-sessions and the superior fitness this generated. I have to say that the last thing the club needs is another manager who is hands-off and aloof from the squad...

 

I've said previously that if Budge is to have a purpose for staying on then she must demonstrate that she's learned at least something about football in the last 7 years...Are we at risk of going into another season blind with a manager who was a far better Head Coach and a bunch of Rangers-y banter merchants doing to the day-to-day?

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/sport/football/robbie-neilson-taking-hearts-coaching-20644583 👍

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Bazzas right boot
5 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

When will he? First time we lose. 

 

So you are just making up shite.

Good that you clarified that.

 

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2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

So you are just making up shite.

Good that you clarified that.

 

Step back from the smell!

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Spellczech
1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

The players didn't know what they were doing but won the league and were 2 penalties from winning the SC?

 

 

 

 

 

You keep banging on about how close we came to winning that SC, but truth is that we weren't in that game until we were out of it!...

 

The first half was dreadful. WE all knew Celtic were vulnerable and all the talk before the match was that it was now or never - if we go at their ropey defence, they could well crack. We didn't though, not until we'd tried to keep the first half tight and surrendered 2 soft goals ourselves. Only then did we chuck Robbie's Plan A (inherited from the playbook of a certain C Levein I suspect) out of the window and get at them, which is what Robbie would've done in his first year as an Head Coach (ironically)

 

The league, well we managed to pretty much split the points with the teams in 2nd, 3rd and 4th and because they all surrendered soft points to the lower down teams and slit each others' throats, our consistency against the lesser teams was telling. It certainly wasn't as convincing as last time round - yes we dished out a few hammerings, but we were better the year Hibs and Rangers were in the Championship with us...

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Bazzas right boot
16 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

You keep banging on about how close we came to winning that SC, but truth is that we weren't in that game until we were out of it!...

 

The first half was dreadful. WE all knew Celtic were vulnerable and all the talk before the match was that it was now or never - if we go at their ropey defence, they could well crack. We didn't though, not until we'd tried to keep the first half tight and surrendered 2 soft goals ourselves. Only then did we chuck Robbie's Plan A (inherited from the playbook of a certain C Levein I suspect) out of the window and get at them, which is what Robbie would've done in his first year as an Head Coach (ironically)

 

The league, well we managed to pretty much split the points with the teams in 2nd, 3rd and 4th and because they all surrendered soft points to the lower down teams and slit each others' throats, our consistency against the lesser teams was telling. It certainly wasn't as convincing as last time round - yes we dished out a few hammerings, but we were better the year Hibs and Rangers were in the Championship with us...

 

Doesn't answer the question in regards to a "team that Didnt know what they were doing" tho? 

 

How does a team like that do as they done-

 

Win the league and promotion. 

Go unbeaten in 120 v 2/3 of the, best teams in the country?

 

Maybe you're having a bit of a drama morning? 

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16 hours ago, Rave MacPherson said:

I heard he just picks the names out of a hat 10 mins before kick off. 

Not sure if this is true, just what i heard. 

 

Damour's name doesn't go in though.

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Spellczech
14 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Doesn't answer the question in regards to a "team that Didnt know what they were doing" tho? 

 

How does a team like that do as they done-

 

Win the league and promotion. 

Go unbeaten in 120 v 2/3 of the, best teams in the country?

 

Maybe you're having a bit of a drama morning? 

I'd already said it in previous posts - For Hibs, read Alloa, for Celtic read Brora Rangers...

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Bazzas right boot
36 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I'd already said it in previous posts - For Hibs, read Alloa, for Celtic read Brora Rangers...

 

So you agree,  it was a team that had poor results and has room for improvement, not one that didn't know what it was doing?

It was one that was by far the most consistent in the league , had 1 good cup result, 1 unlucky 1, 1 poor one and one very shite cup result.

 

 

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