The Dambusters

[Maple Leaf]

Seventy eight years ago tonight, May 16/17 1943, Bomber Command conducted the most daring raid in the history of the RAF.  

 

Nineteen four-engine Lancasters, each carrying a crew of seven, attacked three large hydro-electric dams in central Germany, code name Operation Chastise.  The youngest crewman was 19 years-old, the oldest in his mid-20s. It was an extremely hazardous mission. The round trip took seven hours and it was flown in complete darkness, at treetop level, over heavily defended territory.

 

Fully one-third of the crewman were from Commonwealth countries ... 29 Canadians (14 killed), 13 Australians (5 killed), and 2 New Zealanders.  There was also one American.

 

Eight of the Lancasters were lost, a calamitous loss rate.  Of the 56 crew on the downed aircraft, 53 were killed and 3 taken prisoner.  Two of the aircraft crashed when they struck power lines.  Another crashed after the pilot was blinded by a searchlight blasting into the cockpit.  Only two aircraft were lost over the dams, the others lost either on the way to the target or on the return journey.  Barnes Wallis, the engineer who conceived of the idea and designed the bouncing bombs, was devastated by the deaths of so many young man, and felt guilt for the rest of his life.

 

Two of the dams were breached, the third slightly damaged.  Whether the damage caused to the enemy was worth the cost in precious lives and aircraft has been hotly debated, but the raid was a huge boost to Allied morale.

 

A few months later, the same 617 squadron (with replacements) attacked the Dortmund-Ems canal, once again at nighttime and at low level.  Casualties were even higher this time, with 6 of 9 aircraft crashed or shot down.  The RAF abandoned low level nighttime attacks after that raid.

 

Only 4 of the 19 crews who took part in the Dambuster raid survived the war.

 

Per ardua ad astra.

[The Real Maroonblood]

A real shame that Barnes Wallis felt guilty for the rest of his about the tragedy of loss of life because him designing the bouncing bomb.

[Spellczech]

Always felt the loss of N***** the black Lab was the saddest part of the film...

[Francis Albert]

I was told once that the average numbers of sorties by Lancaster crew before they were killed was 6. 

Of course they did not devise the to some controversial area bombing strategy (Obviously the dambuster raid was not part of that) and it is shameful that the monument on Piccadilly near Hyde Park corner is regularly defaced by protesters.

[My half sister]

Thanks for posting that - we should never forget the sacrifices these young people made for the our benefit. 
 

 

[Francis Albert]

19 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Always felt the loss of N***** the black Lab was the saddest part of the film...

Really?

[Weakened Offender]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I was told once that the average numbers of sorties by Lancaster crew before they were killed was 6. 

Of course they did not devise the to some controversial area bombing strategy (Obviously the dambuster raid was not part of that) and it is shameful that the monument on Piccadilly near Hyde Park corner is regularly defaced by protesters.

 

Controversial area bombing strategy? 

 

Dresden was one of the worst atrocities of WW2. 

[Spellczech]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Really?

Yep you never really got to know the characters of the flyers who crashed. The featured ones made it back.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Controversial area bombing strategy? 

 

Dresden was one of the worst atrocities of WW2. 

 Yes. Controversial. The alternative of strategic bombing was a failure because the technology for targeting bombs to specific targets did not work and so it had minimal effect on the German war effort. The RAF took the war to Germany in the only way it could be done at the time. It's impact is debatable and it probably like the Blitz did more to improve civilian support for the war than damage it. But apparently when news of Dresden filtered  through to the inhabitants of Auschwitz it gave some cheer to them.

Whatever your view defacing a monument to those in Bomber Command who died I find offensive.

[highlandjambo3]

Would make a good film….very sad but very real how these people ricked their life.

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Yep you never really got to know the characters of the flyers who crashed. The featured ones made it back.

Ok it is a long time since I saw the film and not being a dog lover it did not impact on me.

[Tazio]

Just now, highlandjambo3 said:

Would make a good film…

[highlandjambo3]

2 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I am….why do you think I’m not?

 

I used to be a member of the Mohnesee dam sailing club…..some site:

 

 

[Tazio]

4 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

I am….why do you think I’m not?

 

I used to be a member of the Mohnesee dam sailing club…..some site:

 

 

Just the fact it’s one of the most famous war films ever made already. 

[highlandjambo3]

2 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Just the fact it’s one of the most famous war films ever made already. 

Flash Gordon used to be a decent space watch…..until star-trek came along, star-trek was an upgrade……the original was good…..an upgrade would also be good…..just my opinion of course.

[felix]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 Yes. Controversial. The alternative of strategic bombing was a failure because the technology for targeting bombs to specific targets did not work and so it had minimal effect on the German war effort. The RAF took the war to Germany in the only way it could be done at the time. It's impact is debatable and it probably like the Blitz did more to improve civilian support for the war than damage it. But apparently when news of Dresden filtered  through to the inhabitants of Auschwitz it gave some cheer to them.

Whatever your view defacing a monument to those in Bomber Command who died I find offensive.

 

I doubt bombing Dresden cheered up Aushwitz inmates. They'd have known when Dresden was firebombed - it was home to thousands of  refugees , fleeing west from the Red Army, and they'd also likely be aware it was indiscriminate bombing, targetting  innocent civilians, possibly related to those inside the camp.

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, felix said:

 

I doubt bombing Dresden cheered up Aushwitz inmates. They'd have known when Dresden was firebombed - it was home to thousands of  refugees , fleeing west from the Red Army, and they'd also likely be aware it was indiscriminate bombing, targetting  innocent civilians, possibly related to those inside the camp.

I doubt that many civilians in Dresden were related to those in Auschwitz at the time. Or that those in Auschwitz would be offended by indiscriminate bombing of a German city. Anyway the cheers were reported by inmates of Auschwitz.

[Francis Albert]

33 minutes ago, felix said:

 

I doubt bombing Dresden cheered up Aushwitz inmates. They'd have known when Dresden was firebombed - it was home to thousands of  refugees , fleeing west from the Red Army, and they'd also likely be aware it was indiscriminate bombing, targetting  innocent civilians, possibly related to those inside the camp.

Sorry to come back again but you do realise that refugees fleeing the advance of the Red Army were largely ethic Germans or Nazi sympathisers or collaberators And that the only hope of survival of inmates of Auschwitz at the time was the Red Army ... which in the end freed those that were still alive.

 

 

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Controversial area bombing strategy? 

 

Dresden was one of the worst atrocities of WW2. 

 The indiscriminate bombing of London was not really a strong showing of class. Many dead, mainly because the men were already away at war many women and children victims. Prior to WW1 war was pretty much seen as two armies facing each other while citizens watched from various viewpoints. The introduction of aircraft into the situation was the start of air warfare, and developed into the indiscriminate bombings by all sides of non serving citizens. Just like the space thread one can see the large steps that air tactics have taken over the years. Flight by man was such a blessing in many ways, but as man can do he has made it also a source of doom.

[Weakened Offender]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

 The indiscriminate bombing of London was not really a strong showing of class. Many dead, mainly because the men were already away at war many women and children victims. Prior to WW1 war was pretty much seen as two armies facing each other while citizens watched from various viewpoints. The introduction of aircraft into the situation was the start of air warfare, and developed into the indiscriminate bombings by all sides of non serving citizens. Just like the space thread one can see the large steps that air tactics have taken over the years. Flight by man was such a blessing in many ways, but as man can do he has made it also a source of doom.

 

Totally agree. It must have been terrifying living through the Blitz. Unimaginable. 

[jack D and coke]

4 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

Seventy eight years ago tonight, May 16/17 1943, Bomber Command conducted the most daring raid in the history of the RAF.  

 

Nineteen four-engine Lancasters, each carrying a crew of seven, attacked three large hydro-electric dams in central Germany, code name Operation Chastise.  The youngest crewman was 19 years-old, the oldest in his mid-20s. It was an extremely hazardous mission. The round trip took seven hours and it was flown in complete darkness, at treetop level, over heavily defended territory.

 

Fully one-third of the crewman were from Commonwealth countries ... 29 Canadians (14 killed), 13 Australians (5 killed), and 2 New Zealanders.  There was also one American.

 

Eight of the Lancasters were lost, a calamitous loss rate.  Of the 56 crew on the downed aircraft, 53 were killed and 3 taken prisoner.  Two of the aircraft crashed when they struck power lines.  Another crashed after the pilot was blinded by a searchlight blasting into the cockpit.  Only two aircraft were lost over the dams, the others lost either on the way to the target or on the return journey.  Barnes Wallis, the engineer who conceived of the idea and designed the bouncing bombs, was devastated by the deaths of so many young man, and felt guilt for the rest of his life.

 

Two of the dams were breached, the third slightly damaged.  Whether the damage caused to the enemy was worth the cost in precious lives and aircraft has been hotly debated, but the raid was a huge boost to Allied morale.

 

A few months later, the same 617 squadron (with replacements) attacked the Dortmund-Ems canal, once again at nighttime and at low level.  Casualties were even higher this time, with 6 of 9 aircraft crashed or shot down.  The RAF abandoned low level nighttime attacks after that raid.

 

Only 4 of the 19 crews who took part in the Dambuster raid survived the war.

 

Per ardua ad astra.

Absolutely incredible bravery. We don’t know we’re fecking born nowadays. 

[Sharpie]

Just now, Weakened Offender said:

 

Totally agree. It must have been terrifying living through the Blitz. Unimaginable. 

 We in Edinburgh had it so easy air raid ways, a siren you could go to the shelter in our backgreen, but we just stayed in the kitchen, my mother in her highland wisdom considered that as we were on the bottom flat we were safe because the bombs would be worn out by the time they got to us. So she and my sister and I ,with my father out doing nightshift ARP duty just stayed in bed all three of us in the same bed in the bed recess in the kitchen. My greatest air raid near death experience was in bed where I lay with my head at the bottom of the bed and my mother and sister lay in the normal place. One night my sister got one of her muckle big feet on my throat and pushed until I woke up choking. Fortunately mother woke up and told her to stop, as she my sister had awakened her. I guess I was considered for the sake of sleep and comfort disposable.

[Weakened Offender]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

 We in Edinburgh had it so easy air raid ways, a siren you could go to the shelter in our backgreen, but we just stayed in the kitchen, my mother in her highland wisdom considered that as we were on the bottom flat we were safe because the bombs would be worn out by the time they got to us. So she and my sister and I ,with my father out doing nightshift ARP duty just stayed in bed all three of us in the same bed in the bed recess in the kitchen. My greatest air raid near death experience was in bed where I lay with my head at the bottom of the bed and my mother and sister lay in the normal place. One night my sister got one of her muckle big feet on my throat and pushed until I woke up choking. Fortunately mother woke up and told her to stop, as she my sister had awakened her. I guess I was considered for the sake of sleep and comfort disposable.

 

😁

 

My granny told me they could tell if the aircraft above was friend or foe by the rumble of the engines. 

[Maple Leaf]

20 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

😁

 

My granny told me they could tell if the aircraft above was friend or foe by the rumble of the engines. 

 

My dad served with the British army in North Africa and Greece.  He said the same thing; German aeroplane engines had a different sound.  The troops didn't need to look up when they heard a plane approaching. 

[John Findlay]

My late father's 1st memory is of seeing his tenement building in Second Avenue Clydebank being obliterated by the Luftwaffe during the Clydebank blitz over two nights in March 1941. My father was 3 and a half years old at the time.

All through his life his in joke was that his first flit was always courtesy of Hitler's removal company.

The family got evacuated to Coatbridge. It took them 15 years to move back to Clydebank.

[Sharpie]

52 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

😁

 

My granny told me they could tell if the aircraft above was friend or foe by the rumble of the engines. 

Yes the German bombers seemed to miss a beat in their engine noise. As a wee boy six or seven, would go out and watch the German bombers flying home from bombing Glasgow, I think that was actually where the bombs that fell on Edinburgh came from. Didn't usually watch them going in, as it was usually at night. My father drove an ambulance to Glasgow to help with the many casualties from the bombing. When I think of it apart from his strange upbringing as a child of a second marriage, due to the death of my grandfathers first wife, the poor man was drafted at eighteen and sent to France and the trenches, and later in life with two kids to raise was again going into danger to deal with injuries caused by war.Again he lost as in the first war an excllent place of employment.  I could never understand why he had such a prejudice against my joining the army, but now I understand why. Its fine for these politicians et al to prove how tough they are sending their young men and women to war, to die and be maimed for life by injury physical or mental. We may have our political opinions  about the Israelis and Palestinians, but it is  people just like ourselves who are dying with no ability to stop or end the conflicts politicians have started.

[felix]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Sorry to come back again but you do realise that refugees fleeing the advance of the Red Army were largely ethic Germans or Nazi sympathisers or collaberators And that the only hope of survival of inmates of Auschwitz at the time was the Red Army ... which in the end freed those that were still alive.

 

 

You could be right. Given most in Auchwitwz were Poles, and Dresden casualties mostly German, that could have offered some cheer.

[JFK-1]

13 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

I was told once that the average numbers of sorties by Lancaster crew before they were killed was 6. 

Of course they did not devise the to some controversial area bombing strategy (Obviously the dambuster raid was not part of that) and it is shameful that the monument on Piccadilly near Hyde Park corner is regularly defaced by protesters.

 

Casualty rates among bomber crews were absolutely horrific. Far higher than that among ground troops which I believe was around 10%.
 

Quote

Bomber Command aircrews suffered a high casualty rate: of a total of 125,000 aircrew, 57,205 were killed (a 46 percent death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war.

Therefore, a total of 75,446 airmen (60 percent of operational airmen) were killed, wounded or taken prisoner.

 

Think what that must have done to the head every time they set out on a mission knowing there's at least an even chance  I wont come back from this or be badly wounded at best.

[JFK-1]

This is what Jews in hiding far less those in Auschwitz thought of the bombing campaign. Basically the more bombers they send the quicker this can be over and we may survive.

Only one person featured in this video survived the war. All the others died in the camps after their hiding place was discovered.

Credit to the Dutch who risked their lives trying to hide these people.
 

 

[SectionDJambo]

My mother was German and in her late teens during the war. She met my father there, who was serving in the British Army during and just after the war. She came to Edinburgh in 1947, by train, on her own because my father was still serving but due to be demobbed soon.  She was met by my father's uncle at Waverley station, who took her to his family home.

I asked her what her first impressions and thoughts were when she got to Edinburgh. She said that when they got out of the station and onto Princes Street the immediate thought was that all of the buildings were still standing. Germany had been flattened.

Unless you were around in Europe during the war, we can't imagine what it was like to live in fear of planes dropping hign explosives on you night after night. I recently watched a programme about the Clydebank blitz. How anyone could survive those days and nights without permanent mental scarring is beyond me. My generation has been fortunate to live in better and safer times, albeit still with plenty of nutters around to cause threat.

[John Findlay]

15 hours ago, Sharpie said:

Yes the German bombers seemed to miss a beat in their engine noise. As a wee boy six or seven, would go out and watch the German bombers flying home from bombing Glasgow, I think that was actually where the bombs that fell on Edinburgh came from. Didn't usually watch them going in, as it was usually at night. My father drove an ambulance to Glasgow to help with the many casualties from the bombing. When I think of it apart from his strange upbringing as a child of a second marriage, due to the death of my grandfathers first wife, the poor man was drafted at eighteen and sent to France and the trenches, and later in life with two kids to raise was again going into danger to deal with injuries caused by war.Again he lost as in the first war an excllent place of employment.  I could never understand why he had such a prejudice against my joining the army, but now I understand why. Its fine for these politicians et al to prove how tough they are sending their young men and women to war, to die and be maimed for life by injury physical or mental. We may have our political opinions  about the Israelis and Palestinians, but it is  people just like ourselves who are dying with no ability to stop or end the conflicts politicians have started.

The old cliche Bob. If politicians had to fight wars instead of starting them. Then there wouldnt be any wars at all.

[Fxxx the SPFL]

my late father went to the no longer there David Kilpatrick's school in Leith i'm sure a bomb was dropped on it but didn't explode jettisoned on the way back my memory could be wrong.

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, **** the SPFL said:

my late father went to the no longer there David Kilpatrick's school in Leith i'm sure a bomb was dropped on it but didn't explode jettisoned on the way back my memory could be wrong.

 

The infant annexe of the David Kilpatrick was destroyed by a mine in 1941: https://www.scotsman.com/news/they-say-leith-got-lightly-theyre-wrong-2463991 (an interesting article on the German bombing of Edinburgh).

[Fxxx the SPFL]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

The infant annexe of the David Kilpatrick was destroyed by a mine in 1941: https://www.scotsman.com/news/they-say-leith-got-lightly-theyre-wrong-2463991 (an interesting article on the German bombing of Edinburgh).

thanks for that Red a good read my dad was at DK's from 1939-1945 so he would have been there at the time although he never really spoke of it other than once when i was a teenager doing some project at Tynie School re the war and he just off the cuff mentioned that a bomb had been dropped on his primary school and said no more. cheers.

[Maple Leaf]

23 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

 Yes. Controversial. The alternative of strategic bombing was a failure because the technology for targeting bombs to specific targets did not work and so it had minimal effect on the German war effort. The RAF took the war to Germany in the only way it could be done at the time. It's impact is debatable and it probably like the Blitz did more to improve civilian support for the war than damage it. But apparently when news of Dresden filtered  through to the inhabitants of Auschwitz it gave some cheer to them.

Whatever your view defacing a monument to those in Bomber Command who died I find offensive.

 

I've had the privilege of meeting several RAF veterans of WWII, including a pilot who had completed two tours of duty, 30 ops in a Wellington bomber (which was designed by Barnes Wallis), and a second tour of 30 ops in a Lancaster.

 

He didn't talk about the war much, preferring to talk about his post-war experiences as one of the pilots in the Queen's employ, and later as a helicopter pilot in Canada's remote north.

 

But I did talk to him once on the topic I've highlighted in your post.  He was adamant that he was assigned a military target as an aiming point on every mission, even if they were attacking a large city like Hamburg.  The problem was, as you say, aiming at something from 20,000 feet and actually hitting it were two different things.  He said that smoke, flames, and cloud frequently obscured the aiming point, plus the small matter of dodging flak, searchlights and night fighters made accurate aiming somewhat problematic.  If necessary, rather than bring their bombs back (which would be absurd), they lobbed them in the general direction of the target and hoped for the best.

 

As an aside, I also very briefly met Tony Bethell.  He was one of the RAF prisoners who broke out of Stalag Luft III, in the so called "Great Escape".  He was one of the lucky ones who wasn't shot by the Gestapo.  He was a quiet, unassuming man, and we didn't get a chance to speak.  He died in 2004 about an hour's drive north of Toronto.