FOH priorities - Reform in Scottish Football?

[Toronto Jambo]

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Toronto Jambo

[Nookie Bear]

Interesting topic 👍🏻
 

I have no answers tbh but, having seen what happened last year and also the way the old firm have bulldozed their way into the Lowland Leagues despite their clear agenda for doing so, I think the government needs to step in and carry out a proper review of the game. 

They should have done this when they loaned/provided money last year to help. 
 

I am usually against government involvement in sport but this is our national game and should be treated as a national asset, not as a front for Old Firm plc

 

And if not government help then the clubs need to resign en masse away from the old firm and start again, because the game up here is ******. 

[Mikey1874]

Outside getting Rangers and Celtic Colts into the league, and even that looks doomed there is no appetite for change. 

 

Look after ourselves and set an example. 

[Toronto Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Outside getting Rangers and Celtic Colts into the league, and even that looks doomed there is no appetite for change. 

 

Look after ourselves and set an example. 

 

Looking after ourselves really isn't sufficient anymore. Not unless our ambitions are 3rd place.

 

Only way to change is to work with other clubs and authorities (SFA, league, government). If authorities don't show interest, then we carry on and they lose their voice at the table.

[merrymac]

16 minutes ago, Toronto Jambo said:

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

I like your thinking, but it is doomed to fail. Too many lickspittle clubs and chairmen doing the bidding of the Uglies.

The only hope, and I have wanted this for years is if the OF move to another league.

WE would be left with exactly what you are talking about, a competitive league with a number of  clubs with an opportunity for success.

Crowds would improve with fewer meaningless games. We might struggle to get a decent tv deal initially, but as things improved I think the TV companies would up their game.

And definitely no OF  B teams in this league thank you

[Turkishcap]

Good thread, good points raised.

Let's re visit in 10 years and see what's what.

[merrymac]

1 minute ago, Turkishcap said:

Good thread, good points raised.

Let's re visit in 10 years and see what's what.

I will guess nothing has changed  

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

I completely disagree re the Cheeks leaving the Scottish system.  If this ever happens, I can see the remaining Scottish leagues ending up about on a par with the Welsh League.

Are the same two sides going to win the welsh league for as long as the league lasts. 

[Toronto Jambo]

9 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

I completely disagree re the Cheeks leaving the Scottish system.  If this ever happens, I can see the remaining Scottish leagues ending up about on a par with the Welsh League.

 

Not even a risk. Where are they going to go if they leave? No one wants them, the ESL idea was just crushed.

 

Push for reform and they can play in a reworked Scottish league or have an exclusive OF league with a derby every weekend. Their choice

Edited May 12, 2021 by Toronto Jambo

[Pasquale for King]

43 minutes ago, Toronto Jambo said:

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

Great post. 
I do believe though that the FoH reps and our new CEO who seems to be largely invisible are unlikely to do anything radical. 
So we need to have an in house shake up before we start on the establishment. 

[martoon]

Good op and points well made but Scottish football is terminal.

 

As others have suggested there simply isn't any desire to change anything. Neither at the SPFL, SFA or, not including the OF, around 38 clubs who are content to be also rans.

 

Third place, woohoo.

 

Only Hearts and Aberdeen have shown any desire to challenge the duopoly since 1986.

 

The rest haven't and don't really seem to mind that they haven't.

[Des Lynam]

48 minutes ago, Toronto Jambo said:

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

The lack of competition in the league is certainly a problem. Personally I’m not sure the old firm should take all the blame. The lack of ingenuity from the other clubs to change this is poor. Everyone has accepted that third place is only achievable and seem happy for this as a target. 

[Toronto Jambo]

10 minutes ago, martoon said:

Good op and points well made but Scottish football is terminal.

 

As others have suggested there simply isn't any desire to change anything. Neither at the SPFL, SFA or, not including the OF, around 38 clubs who are content to be also rans.

 

Third place, woohoo.

 

Only Hearts and Aberdeen have shown any desire to challenge the duopoly since 1986.

 

The rest haven't and don't really seem to mind that they haven't.

 

It makes you wonder what the conversations are behind the scenes? Any reform would mean funds more equitably distributed. Are there clubs who say, "not only do we not want to win the league, but we don't want any additional funding." Should be an easy sell.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Toronto Jambo

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Probably just one side, TNS.  But they can win it as many times as they like, they might be Welsh Champions but they can never call themselves the best team in Wales.  Which is why few people outside Wales care.

 

Anyway, I was simply responding to a point in this thread.  Neither Celtic nor Rangers are going anywhere so it's all hypothetical.  It's been done to death on here many times over.

Yep, it’s just chit chat. As you say, they’re going nowhere. 

[merrymac]

22 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

I completely disagree re the Cheeks leaving the Scottish system.  If this ever happens, I can see the remaining Scottish leagues ending up about on a par with the Welsh League.

Why?

If you had a league with Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell maybe even The Hobos and others  fighting it out for the title, I think people would want to see that. A league where the outcome is not decided after about 10 games?

Clubs would be keener to invest knowing they had a chance to win.

Even if the standard was the welsh league it would be preferable to what we have now

This fear and cow towing to the Cheeks is what keeps the rest of us back.

Happy to see the back of their bile and sectarianism

[Gambo]

I'd rather FoH concentrated all their efforts on us.

 

 

[Toronto Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Gambo said:

I'd rather FoH concentrated all their efforts on us.

 

 

 

Why do you think this wouldn't benefit us? This is certainly about self-interest and just happens to collectively also benefit the rest of the clubs in the country.

[merrymac]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

 

Because the winners of the Scottish League would not be the best team in Scotland, so it would be meaningless.  It wouldn't matter how competitive it was, because it would be like bald men fighting over a comb.

 

Anybody who believes that there would be a better TV deal without Rangers and Celtic, just because the remaining league is more competitive, is mistaken, I'm afraid.

You did not read my post.

At no point did I say there would be a better TV deal?? so I don't know what your point is.?

What I actually said was we might struggle to get a decent TV deal initially

They have wanted out the league for years so why not give them their wish?

If you are happy fighting over the crumbs then that's your choice .

Any way my reply to a post at the start of the thread gives my realistic take👍

 

[merrymac]

Just now, sassenach said:

 

The OP mentioned TV deals.

Ok sorry

But you were replying to my post, and I also mentioned TV deals, so natural mistake.

[Byyy The Light]

1 hour ago, Toronto Jambo said:

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

Good topic and some good points.

 

Love talking about things that can be done to improve the game here but it will never ever happen. Too many clubs with Stockholm syndrome.

 

Sadly it’s a waste of time even discussing it. 

[Toronto Jambo]

1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

Good topic and some good points.

 

Love talking about things that can be done to improve the game here but it will never ever happen. Too many clubs with Stockholm syndrome.

 

Sadly it’s a waste of time even discussing it. 

 

I agree that it would be a challenge, but is it possible that these conversations have only been exhausted in the pub?

 

Fan ownership should allow us to escalate them into the boardroom and in the club's discussions with other clubs and governing authorities. It's worth a go

[Byyy The Light]

2 minutes ago, Toronto Jambo said:

 

I agree that it would be a challenge, but is it possible that these conversations have only been exhausted in the pub?

 

Fan ownership should allow us to escalate them into the boardroom and in the club's discussions with other clubs and governing authorities. It's worth a go

I genuinely love your optimism but the set up means everything is stacked against proper change.  
 

Too many part time clubs like Brechin/Albion Rovers etc have the same weight of vote as us. The first port of call should be to scrap that and restructure so we have 2 genuine professional leagues.  These clubs are never going to vote for something like that.  Due to the numbers required it also makes a rebel breakaway unlikely.

 

 

[SomethingAboutObua]

The OF repeatedly strong armed negotiations for bringing their colts into the SPFL and werent told to stop by the SPFL, until eventually settling for the LL, who despite marketing themselves as being local and community focused, invited in the 2 most problematic, corporate and least local fan bases in the country in. That's the problem right there, the league bodies themselves don't stand up to them, and when the club's do theres still a majority of the part timers and some pro that are in need of the trickle down cash from them.

 

I think without another breakaway league set up by the non OF Pro sides (which I'm for), the best way for teams to collectively make a difference is agreeing to do things like actually punishing the OF for things like ripping up your seats and toilets, collectively reduce their away allocations in response, report them to the league body when you hear hullo hullo, report yourself when you hear it in your own crowd, agree as a group that you will all do this. Come to an agreement that no one will give away more than 45% of their stadium to OF away fans, agree to try and become sustainable without the OF payday (would never happen) and vote to change the ****ing prize money allocations. Imo Hearts and Hibs could be setting up a joint city centre team shop, or go in with the SRU too, they should be getting JD Sports and Sports Direct to sell their kits too in Lothian shops or something like that. Might be far fetched but why not try it. There's all these things that teams could look into but they don't.

 

I don't think there's a realistic answer tbh, the quickest and easiest way to change league winners and where the moneys going is a playoff format, but the pant wetting over the meer thought of that is unbelievable. Football's the only major sport that doesn't use the playoff format, but apparently it would never work/is too American. 

 

I still think the best route for now is another full league break away (again, no chance if its not OF lead). I'd really really like us to do the crazy idea of setting up competent professional league set up, for only the professional teams

 

 

[Rogue Daddy]

1 hour ago, Toronto Jambo said:

 

Not even a risk. Where are they going to go if they leave? No one wants them, the ESL idea was just crushed.

 

Push for reform and they can play in a reworked Scottish league or have an exclusive OF league with a derby every weekend. Their choice

I completely agree with this. The sooner clubs realise the OF actually need them more than the rest of us need the OF, the better. The problem is short sighted (and sometimes, OF loving) chairmen care more about the ‘scraps’ (that are thrown to them once the OF get their share) than the greater good of game. 
 

[Byyy The Light]

14 minutes ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

The OF repeatedly strong armed negotiations for bringing their colts into the SPFL and werent told to stop by the SPFL, until eventually settling for the LL, who despite marketing themselves as being local and community focused, invited in the 2 most problematic, corporate and least local fan bases in the country in. That's the problem right there, the league bodies themselves don't stand up to them, and when the club's do theres still a majority of the part timers and some pro that are in need of the trickle down cash from them.

 

I think without another breakaway league set up by the non OF Pro sides (which I'm for), the best way for teams to collectively make a difference is agreeing to do things like actually punishing the OF for things like ripping up your seats and toilets, collectively reduce their away allocations in response, report them to the league body when you hear hullo hullo, report yourself when you hear it in your own crowd, agree as a group that you will all do this. Come to an agreement that no one will give away more than 45% of their stadium to OF away fans, agree to try and become sustainable without the OF payday (would never happen) and vote to change the ****ing prize money allocations. Imo Hearts and Hibs could be setting up a joint city centre team shop, or go in with the SRU too, they should be getting JD Sports and Sports Direct to sell their kits too in Lothian shops or something like that. Might be far fetched but why not try it. There's all these things that teams could look into but they don't.

 

I don't think there's a realistic answer tbh, the quickest and easiest way to change league winners and where the moneys going is a playoff format, but the pant wetting over the meer thought of that is unbelievable. Football's the only major sport that doesn't use the playoff format, but apparently it would never work/is too American. 

 

I still think the best route for now is another full league break away (again, no chance if its not OF lead). I'd really really like us to do the crazy idea of setting up competent professional league set up, for only the professional teams

 

 

In a league of 16 you could award a season winner for a Champions league spot (after 30 games) then have a rugby league format play off to be crowned Champions and get the other spot.

 

The OF would ultimately be trying to win both to be undisputed Champions but gives  teams like us an outside chance. It also means there is likely to be more than 2 OF games which would work for tv. 

[Rogue Daddy]

1 hour ago, Toronto Jambo said:

 

It makes you wonder what the conversations are behind the scenes? Any reform would mean funds more equitably distributed. Are there clubs who say, "not only do we not want to win the league, but we don't want any additional funding." Should be an easy sell.

This is where I would like to see our benefactor and his colleagues get involved. Even as a sponsor (remember league sponsors…. they were great!) 

Anyhoo, if (as a sponsor) I wonder if they they might have a say on how their offerings would be distributed- if the funding was to be of a generous amount compared to what’s went before, they may get away with adding some ‘fairer’ strings. 🤷‍♂️ It would be a start. 

[Cut The Crap]

1 hour ago, Gambo said:

I'd rather FoH concentrated all their efforts on us.

 

 

Indeed.

[Cruickshankforscotland]

This is an interesting topic. Maybe a lot more interesting as fan ownership comes into place. The only way there will be any change in Scottish football  is if the clubs take some action to make it happen. Obviously the clubs have not had the will to even try to effect change. Is it now up to Hearts to try and drive forward attempts at change? Could we try to work with other clubs for change? If other clubs are not interested or willing to act, then should Hearts take it on themselves?

If so, how could we do that? One obvious target to attack for change is the ridiculous 11-1 voting structure. Hearts could challenge that and campaign for a change to the voting structure. This would force the hands of the other clubs. Do they back the call for change or do they let themselves be seen as falling in line with the old firm, thereby protecting them. Of course, the old firm would stand against change an the voting structure would protect as them, as it’s designed to do so. 
Could Hearts then, say a year later, propose the change again, and hopefully embarrass everyone in Scottish football. Hopefully someone would need to try to justify the total farce of the voting set up. 
Would FOH and/or HMFC be willing to take this on? At the moment probably not. But, in the future can we as fans/FOH members call on, or even “instruct” them to take up such a campaign? Can a majority of members “impose” this on FOH, who then as majority shareholder can vote this through onto the club?

There will be other areas of the way the game is run that Hearts could challenge. Whatever that aspect of the game may be the same principle could apply, in that it can be  fans that identify it and start the campaign.

[Rogue Daddy]

14 minutes ago, Cruickshankforscotland said:

This is an interesting topic. Maybe a lot more interesting as fan ownership comes into place. The only way there will be any change in Scottish football  is if the clubs take some action to make it happen. Obviously the clubs have not had the will to even try to effect change. Is it now up to Hearts to try and drive forward attempts at change? Could we try to work with other clubs for change? If other clubs are not interested or willing to act, then should Hearts take it on themselves?

If so, how could we do that? One obvious target to attack for change is the ridiculous 11-1 voting structure. Hearts could challenge that and campaign for a change to the voting structure. This would force the hands of the other clubs. Do they back the call for change or do they let themselves be seen as falling in line with the old firm, thereby protecting them. Of course, the old firm would stand against change an the voting structure would protect as them, as it’s designed to do so. 
Could Hearts then, say a year later, propose the change again, and hopefully embarrass everyone in Scottish football. Hopefully someone would need to try to justify the total farce of the voting set up. 
Would FOH and/or HMFC be willing to take this on? At the moment probably not. But, in the future can we as fans/FOH members call on, or even “instruct” them to take up such a campaign? Can a majority of members “impose” this on FOH, who then as majority shareholder can vote this through onto the club?

There will be other areas of the way the game is run that Hearts could challenge. Whatever that aspect of the game may be the same principle could apply, in that it can be  fans that identify it and start the campaign.

I think Hearts can absolutely lead the way of change, but as I said above, would require the help of our benefactors and their affluent chums. 
For instance, if JA and friends were to come out and say something like “we’ll sponsor the Scottish League for the next 5 years at 20 mill per year, but we want league reconstruction and a revamp of the voting structure”, I’m sure the clubs that, at present, rely on the OF gates for funding, would potentially come on side. 
Outside of Us, sheep, hobos and the well (?) the rest vote with/for the OF pound at present - money is king to them, and it’s what’s required to get them to think beyond the current crappy set up that’s suits only 2 clubs. 

[davemclaren]

The SPL without the OF would be like the EPL without the ‘big 4 or 5’…much diminished commercially with less interest but more open for the lesser teams left behind. 

[Hearts1975]

Love the sentiment but practically, it just ain’t going to happen 

 

Everyone knows we would need an overwhelming majority to agree on the change (whatever that maybe) 

 

The Old Firm have monopolised nearly every single club in Scotland, whereby if the same said club threatens, or goes against the OF, they then retract back in their shell when working out the financial implications - All these clubs, right down, all want money first and the OF has set it up this way so they can’t be challenged/overruled - it’s shite, but it has been this way for a long long time 

 

Anyway, Lets not trust a number of clubs where just recently we have been in the receiving end and saw clearly, the self centred interest that generates out of each one of them 

 

Would rather FOH concentrate on us, than lead some long lost crusade with “Scottish Fitba” in tow 

[sadj]

My favourite bit of that wiki piece was finding out Réunion has nearly 900000 of a population and a few football teams. Possibly funded properly with pirate gold they could afford to travel to France for matches and consign PSG to second place.

[Kiwidoug]

It would be interesting to know all the circumstances of the 1950s when Hearts and hibs won 5 league titles and very nearly won the other 5.

 

I doubt if the disparity in income between r and c and the rest was quite as big as it is now but it was still big.  The first time I saw Hearts at ibrox there was a crowd of 72,000 on a wet Wednesday night.

 

There was no bosman of course and only a handful of foreigners.  One-club men were commonplace.  There were more competitive clubs including Clyde, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

 

I know you can't replicate the past, much as I would often like to, but there are probably some lessons.

 

I think we know that young people spend less time playing sport these days but that doesn't seem to hamper the Netherlands, amongst others.

 

Maybe the next Messi and Ronaldo have already been born in Broomhouse.

 

 

[Cruickshankforscotland]

12 hours ago, Toronto Jambo said:

 

I agree that it would be a challenge, but is it possible that these conversations have only been exhausted in the pub?

 

Fan ownership should allow us to escalate them into the boardroom and in the club's discussions with other clubs and governing authorities. It's worth a go

For me this is the interesting aspect of trying to get change. The fans could have an avenue for driving/requesting a challenge to the present old firm duopoly.

The current set up is designed to benefit and protect the old firm. They are not going to let that go without a challenge. So, doing nothing is to accept the current situation with all its inequities and old firm bias. The only certainty is that without a challenge nothing will change.

It’s disappointing that the prevailing tone of these discussions is “it has always been like this, it won’t change, so why bother”. Feels like this is said with a collective shrug of the shoulder.

No one in Scottish football seems inclined to make the effort to get change. Is this just a symptom of a total lack of drive or ambition?
I think the fans could push the need for change onto the agenda. If nobody takes up the challenge we are all guilty of pandering to the old firm interests.

[OTT]

13 hours ago, Gambo said:

I'd rather FoH concentrated all their efforts on us.

 

 

Me too. They way Scottish football is run, it means every change comes down to a vote where the odds are stacked against it. 
 

Time better spent focusing on our own growth as a club and finding new and inventive ways to bring in cash to improve the club. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

13 hours ago, sassenach said:

Probably just one side, TNS.  But they can win it as many times as they like, they might be Welsh Champions but they can never call themselves the best team in Wales.  Which is why few people outside Wales care.

 

Anyway, I was simply responding to a point in this thread.  Neither Celtic nor Rangers are going anywhere so it's all hypothetical.  It's been done to death on here many times over.

But TNS can call themselves Welsh champions and play in the Champions League.  What do we have?  The excitement of a 3rd place finish 30 points behind if we have a good season. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

4 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

It would be interesting to know all the circumstances of the 1950s when Hearts and hibs won 5 league titles and very nearly won the other 5.

 

I doubt if the disparity in income between r and c and the rest was quite as big as it is now but it was still big.  The first time I saw Hearts at ibrox there was a crowd of 72,000 on a wet Wednesday night.

 

There was no bosman of course and only a handful of foreigners.  One-club men were commonplace.  There were more competitive clubs including Clyde, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

 

I know you can't replicate the past, much as I would often like to, but there are probably some lessons.

 

I think we know that young people spend less time playing sport these days but that doesn't seem to hamper the Netherlands, amongst others.

 

Maybe the next Messi and Ronaldo have already been born in Broomhouse.

 

 

Or more recently - the 1980’s when Aberdeen and Dundee Utd won 4 titles and we were 7 minutes away from winning one.   Times have changed - that will be the last decade like that unless the OF leave.  
 

A lot of it is down to money but also other teams / Scotland in general doesn’t produce footballers of the standard we used to and the smaller clubs can’t compete (even if only for a season or two) with the OF with a team of 11 Scots like they used to. 

[tian447]

Reform will never happen because of the stranglehold Celtic and Rangers have on the game up here.  They even have wee teams at the bottom pledging allegiances to them to make sure that they stay where they are.  The entire system is rotten to the core, and needs wiped out; the very fact we have an 11-1 voting system is designed to protect what is already in place, and it just takes 2 clubs to go against it, and it can't advance.  That needs changed at the very least to 8:4, still allowing for a clear majority.  It'll never happen though, because that would allow other changes to be proposed and put through, and the Old Firm risk not being in the majority if proposals are designed to suit them.

 

However, the talk of swapping leagues or setting up new ones is doomed to fail, and a total pipe dream.  The European Super League plans were crushed within 24 hours of them being announced, and a shit load of sanctions have come out of it to prevent something like that happening again.  Talk of players being banned from national squads, no right to play in other competitions and bans from ever coming back if it doesn't work out.

 

Instead of trying to imagine a future without the Old Firm, we need to start building a platform where we can compete with them and stop being scared of them.  It means finishing as high up the table as we can, and actually trying to achieve something in Europe rather than just getting punted out in the qualifiers.  Reaching the Group Stage of the Europa League would be incredible for us, and bring in some money that can be re-invested in the squad to make sure we do it the following year, and every season after that, with the goal of getting a little further each time.

 

We can't change the system, we just need to learn to compete in it, and try and beat it.

[Saint Jambo]

How happy would those calling for change be if a change to the voting system was secured to make it a simple majority and then Motherwell, Livingstone, Ross County, St Mirren, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Dundee United voted to have all revenue split equally, so that we had no financial advantage over anyone else and were just as likely to finish 12th as 1st? If you wouldn't be happy with that, then you need to ask why those clubs should support a change that is designed to move us on to a more even playing field with Celtic and Rangers, but not move those clubs on to a level playing field with us.

 

It is all well and good saying that FOH should spend time focussing on this, but your starting point needs to be setting out a vaguely plausible strategy for removing the 11-1 voting structure. Without that it would be a waste of time.

[Rogue Daddy]

43 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

How happy would those calling for change be if a change to the voting system was secured to make it a simple majority and then Motherwell, Livingstone, Ross County, St Mirren, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Dundee United voted to have all revenue split equally, so that we had no financial advantage over anyone else and were just as likely to finish 12th as 1st? If you wouldn't be happy with that, then you need to ask why those clubs should support a change that is designed to move us on to a more even playing field with Celtic and Rangers, but not move those clubs on to a level playing field with us.

 

It is all well and good saying that FOH should spend time focussing on this, but your starting point needs to be setting out a vaguely plausible strategy for removing the 11-1 voting structure. Without that it would be a waste of time.

it's absolutely the first thing that should change. Right now even! Closely followed by not allowing the OF to have spfl board member 'swappsies' every year (or is it two years?) - meaning the OF have an ever-present!

[Cruickshankforscotland]

1 hour ago, Saint Jambo said:

How happy would those calling for change be if a change to the voting system was secured to make it a simple majority and then Motherwell, Livingstone, Ross County, St Mirren, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Dundee United voted to have all revenue split equally, so that we had no financial advantage over anyone else and were just as likely to finish 12th as 1st? If you wouldn't be happy with that, then you need to ask why those clubs should support a change that is designed to move us on to a more even playing field with Celtic and Rangers, but not move those clubs on to a level playing field with us.

 

It is all well and good saying that FOH should spend time focussing on this, but your starting point needs to be setting out a vaguely plausible strategy for removing the 11-1 voting structure. Without that it would be a waste of time.

Well that’s an argument that seems to be based only on each clubs own interests, and not the interest of the league/game overall. This reflects the attitude that saw us, and others, screwed over last year.

It’s certainly an argument the old firm would use. This would very much be used to divide the opposition, in order to divide and rule. The would seem to be a case of any alternatives would not be perfect. That would be true. But any alternative would certainly be better than the 11-1 vote. 
But perhaps we should have that discussion. That’s why I think the matter should be raised and discussed fully. Would you want to put a case forward for the advantages to the league overall of the current voting criteria?

 

[wavydavy]

17 hours ago, Toronto Jambo said:

We all know that the "competition" that is Scottish football is a joke. There are only two teams that have a reasonable chance of becoming Scottish champions.

 

Why are we at this point? Why has this become acceptable? Why don't Scottish football authorities implement policies to produce a more competitive league? It's either pure corruption or a passion for failing to do one's job. Despite what many people say, the weakness of Scottish football is not that it offers an inferior on-field product, but it is the lack of competition. People are excited and want to watch tight races and close matches. A predictable league brings poor TV deals, limits the growth of fan bases, and even shrinks them! 

 

The reasons for reform are extensive. Here's a fun one, take a look at the list of domestic trebles on wikipedia. Sometimes we fail to appreciate how unbalance football in Scotland is compared to the rest of the world.

 

My family has supported Hearts for over a century, and even as someone born and raised in Canada, I've watched nearly every match that has been broadcast within the 15 years. I'd like to see the FOH take on the reform Scottish football as a priority. It is of vital importance to the future of our club. In light of the European Super League debacle, we have seen the strength of smaller clubs and fan groups banding together to protect themselves. If 14 teams in the English Premier League can meet to protect their interests, so can Scottish clubs. The Old Firm like to talk about leaving Scottish football as though they have leverage. Do they? We have much less to lose. 

 

I know our relationship with other clubs in the country is fractured, but I still believe the FOH should take this on. Hell, I'd take this on if I was on the board.

 

No easy task trying to reform Scottish Football.

 

It is a bit like politics in the sense that whoever is in power makes it difficult for anyone else to take over.

 

Own the media and flood them with stories promoting more self interest which has happened in Scotland since football began.

 

Look at the Big Six in England they are purely motivated by greed and the other clubs who are their equivalent in Europe are every bit as bad.

 

There is hardly a club board in Scotland that does not have leanings towards the old firm and when it comes to the crunch they always bow to what they want.

 

We had the chance to alter the way clubs vote on change but we all how how that ended.

 

I am all for reform in Scottish football and it would be nice to have FOH at the forefront of leading this but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on any meaningful changes.

[indianajones]

It has been and will always be about pandering to the Weegie masses unfortunately. 

[Toronto Jambo]

Some of the comments here are very defeatist.

 

We all understand it's a challenge.  Does that mean we should give up? 

[Rogue Daddy]

18 minutes ago, Toronto Jambo said:

Some of the comments here are very defeatist.

 

We all understand it's a challenge.  Does that mean we should give up? 

1984/85 Aberdeen - the last time a non-OF team won the Scottish Premier League. 36 years ago! If that doesn't scream 'something not right here, change required', what does?

[Toronto Jambo]

 

1 hour ago, Rogue Daddy said:

1984/85 Aberdeen - the last time a non-OF team won the Scottish Premier League. 36 years ago! If that doesn't scream 'something not right here, change required', what does?

 

Sir Alex on the BBC today:

 

"And then as a manager I took a provincial club, Aberdeen, and beat Real Madrid in the [1983 European Cup Winners Cup] final in Gothenburg. That is a provincial club, fulfilling its dream.

 

"Every club should have that dream to achieve what Aberdeen did. So that's the answer.

 

"You cannot ever forget that the real reason for football was that the smallest guy can climb to the top of Everest, and that's the best way I can put that. We can't do without that really."

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57098656

[Kiwidoug]

11 hours ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Or more recently - the 1980’s when Aberdeen and Dundee Utd won 4 titles and we were 7 minutes away from winning one.   Times have changed - that will be the last decade like that unless the OF leave.  
 

A lot of it is down to money but also other teams / Scotland in general doesn’t produce footballers of the standard we used to and the smaller clubs can’t compete (even if only for a season or two) with the OF with a team of 11 Scots like they used to. 

I agree with every word.  On reflection, I think the gap between them and the rest is massive now.  It was also far more probable in the 50s and the 80s that clubs could retain their best players.  Today it's a virtual impossibility.

[Byyy The Light]

10 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I agree with every word.  On reflection, I think the gap between them and the rest is massive now.  It was also far more probable in the 50s and the 80s that clubs could retain their best players.  Today it's a virtual impossibility.

Going to the OF 4 times a season will forever prevent a challenge. One of us smaller guys might go to Parkhead or Ibrox and get a draw and beat them at Tynecastle but we’re not going to be able to build a team that would do that twice in a season. You effectively have to win an 8 game league against them and it isn’t going to happen.

 

Do you think Leicester would’ve won the league going to playing Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City 4 times in a season?

 

No point talking about the 50s and 80s as some people are as the league was set up differently.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

13 hours ago, Toronto Jambo said:

 

 

Sir Alex on the BBC today:

 

"And then as a manager I took a provincial club, Aberdeen, and beat Real Madrid in the [1983 European Cup Winners Cup] final in Gothenburg. That is a provincial club, fulfilling its dream.

 

"Every club should have that dream to achieve what Aberdeen did. So that's the answer.

 

"You cannot ever forget that the real reason for football was that the smallest guy can climb to the top of Everest, and that's the best way I can put that. We can't do without that really."

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57098656

If that Aberdeen team started to take form today, it would be broken up within 6 months with players wanting to leave for more money and it probably wouldn’t win anything. The best players would be sold for a few quid, the manager would leave for England and nothing would get built. 

[Jumper]

On 12/05/2021 at 20:24, sassenach said:

 

I completely disagree re the Cheeks leaving the Scottish system.  If this ever happens, I can see the remaining Scottish leagues ending up about on a par with the Welsh League.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and what a problem for the match day officials because they would have no one to favour.🙄