Family ancestry

[jamborich]

Always fancied tracing back my family out of curiosity, has anybody tried it and could give some advice on which is the best way to go

[Jambo-Jimbo]

If you have living Grandparents talk to them, find out who their parents were, born married died etc etc, get hold of any certificates the family might still have and use that information.

Then (if in Scotland) either go along to the search rooms at the Scotlands people centre in Edinburgh or do it online with same, there is a charge.

 

Be prepared that once you start you will never finish it, there is always someone else to find.

 

There are lots of resources out there now, far too many to list here, Mr. Google is your friend, but Scotlands people & familysearch.com formally the IGI (International Genealogical Index) run by the Mormon church are really good.

One tip, is if you look at paid sites such as Ancestry or Find my Past don't take for granted that the info in the submitted trees are correct, I've seen way too many times false information and then other people just copy it and never realise that they have just copied the wrong info, the moral here is do the research yourself, that way you'll know what is right and what is wrong.

 

I have to say it's one of the most rewarding and interesting things I've done in my like, it's not easy or cheap but it's so damn addictive, and once you start to get the hang of it and the discoveries flow after discovery, you want to know more and more, you want to know more than just when someone was born married or died but you want to discover more about their life.

 

 

 

[jamborich]

46 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

If you have living Grandparents talk to them, find out who their parents were, born married died etc etc, get hold of any certificates the family might still have and use that information.

Then (if in Scotland) either go along to the search rooms at the Scotlands people centre in Edinburgh or do it online with same, there is a charge.

 

Be prepared that once you start you will never finish it, there is always someone else to find.

 

There are lots of resources out there now, far too many to list here, Mr. Google is your friend, but Scotlands people & familysearch.com formally the IGI (International Genealogical Index) run by the Mormon church are really good.

One tip, is if you look at paid sites such as Ancestry or Find my Past don't take for granted that the info in the submitted trees are correct, I've seen way too many times false information and then other people just copy it and never realise that they have just copied the wrong info, the moral here is do the research yourself, that way you'll know what is right and what is wrong.

 

I have to say it's one of the most rewarding and interesting things I've done in my like, it's not easy or cheap but it's so damn addictive, and once you start to get the hang of it and the discoveries flow after discovery, you want to know more and more, you want to know more than just when someone was born married or died but you want to discover more about their life.

 

 

 

Thanks appreciated always wondered how accurate these pay sites are

[Morgan]

Contact Births, Deaths and Marriages at New Register House, just beside the Cafe Royal.  

[Shanks said no]

You might want to take a peep at this thread

 

 

A very good starting point, no cost involved to get started is https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

[Jambo-Jimbo]

56 minutes ago, jamborich said:

Thanks appreciated always wondered how accurate these pay sites are

 

They are fine for searching for census info and war records and many other records, newspapers, it's just the submitted family trees which need caution.

 

In fact I've just taken a month's subscription with Find my Past because I had some newspapers to search through and some census' to check, only take a month out once a year or so, when I have a few things to check.

[jamborich]

1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

They are fine for searching for census info and war records and many other records, newspapers, it's just the submitted family trees which need caution.

 

In fact I've just taken a month's subscription with Find my Past because I had some newspapers to search through and some census' to check, only take a month out once a year or so, when I have a few things to check.

I don't mind paying a subscription but I guess I'm asking which is the best to pay for 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

51 minutes ago, jamborich said:

I don't mind paying a subscription but I guess I'm asking which is the best to pay for 

 

Over the years I've had both Find my Past & Ancestry, each have some records the other doesn't.

I prefer Find my Past as it's better for UK & Irish newspapers, which can sometimes provide extra info on someone's life.

[Captain Slog]

4 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

If you have living Grandparents talk to them, find out who their parents were, born married died etc etc, get hold of any certificates the family might still have and use that information.

Then (if in Scotland) either go along to the search rooms at the Scotlands people centre in Edinburgh or do it online with same, there is a charge.

 

Be prepared that once you start you will never finish it, there is always someone else to find.

 

There are lots of resources out there now, far too many to list here, Mr. Google is your friend, but Scotlands people & familysearch.com formally the IGI (International Genealogical Index) run by the Mormon church are really good.

One tip, is if you look at paid sites such as Ancestry or Find my Past don't take for granted that the info in the submitted trees are correct, I've seen way too many times false information and then other people just copy it and never realise that they have just copied the wrong info, the moral here is do the research yourself, that way you'll know what is right and what is wrong.

 

I have to say it's one of the most rewarding and interesting things I've done in my like, it's not easy or cheap but it's so damn addictive, and once you start to get the hang of it and the discoveries flow after discovery, you want to know more and more, you want to know more than just when someone was born married or died but you want to discover more about their life.

 

 

 

I just like to re-iterate @Jambo-Jimbo here, start with your extant relatives. Grandparents will have the names and dates of births of their parents, and may recall their own grandparents details to some extent. and that far back, you should be able able to search for free.  I got back to Victorian times just on their anecdotal evidence, and was provided with a 'famous' family member further back as a different place to research from.

 

Military records are useful for male relatives too, if you've only managed as far back as the first half of the twentieth century.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Captain Slog

[¼½¾]

You might find some useful information in this site.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/

[jamborich]

1 hour ago, Captain Slog said:

I just like to re-iterate @Jambo-Jimbo here, start with your extant relatives. Grandparents will have the names and dates of births of their parents, and may recall their own grandparents details to some extent. and that far back, you should be able able to search for free.  I got back to Victorian times just on their anecdotal evidence, and was provided with a 'famous' family member further back as a different place to research from.

 

Military records are useful for male relatives too, if you've only managed as far back as the first half of the twentieth century.

This is confusing excuse my ignorance are you saying 

 

1 hour ago, Captain Slog said:

I just like to re-iterate @Jambo-Jimbo here, start with your extant relatives. Grandparents will have the names and dates of births of their parents, and may recall their own grandparents details to some extent. and that far back, you should be able able to search for free.  I got back to Victorian times just on their anecdotal evidence, and was provided with a 'famous' family member further back as a different place to research from.

 

Military records are useful for male relatives too, if you've only managed as far back as the first half of the twentieth century.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by jamborich

[Captain Slog]

😛 Ask your grandparents if they are  still alive, they may give you names and dates of births of their parents and grandparents.  Mine provided the details of my ancestors over the past 100 years.  Census and public records are free (or at least cheap) to access to research births and deaths prior to that.

 

They also remembered someone famous from 200 years ago i was supposed to be related to, and i was able to trace that relatives details, and work forward to help the research.

 

If you trace a male member of your family back to the 1900s,, through to the end of national service, there is a good chance they served in the forces, and army records are a good source of personal details

[Swahili Jambo]

It depends on what you are looking for and how much time you are willing to spend on it.  I've cheated twice and done the easy option through ancestry.com.  You spit into a vial and send it back and you get a very detailed E-mail back covering your matrilineal and patrilineal blood line.  Both results were identical, so I trust it, hence my recommendation.  ps I'm a Ket on the female side and a Pict on the male (and no ****in English blood to be seen which made me VERY happy!!)     

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 hours ago, Captain Slog said:

😛 Ask your grandparents if they are  still alive, they may give you names and dates of births of their parents and grandparents.  Mine provided the details of my ancestors over the past 100 years.  Census and public records are free (or at least cheap) to access to research births and deaths prior to that.

 

They also remembered someone famous from 200 years ago i was supposed to be related to, and i was able to trace that relatives details, and work forward to help the research.

 

If you trace a male member of your family back to the 1900s,, through to the end of national service, there is a good chance they served in the forces, and army records are a good source of personal details

 

I was lucky in the fact that whilst all my Grandparents were dead, my parents had copies of their death certificates (which I now have) and I was then able to start from there.  When I started there was next to nothing on the internet and I had no choice but to spend a lot of time in the old register house, the one around the corner from present day, and search through thousands of microfiches & microfilms, it was nothing like the easy process that there is today.

 

Military records, especially WWI are patchy at best, as most were destroyed in 1940 during the blitz, so it's just pot luck if you find any surviving records, out of 3 G Grandfathers who I know for sure fought in WWI I've only got the service record for one, another I've got the regimental war diary, so where they were so should he have been, most of the time.

I do have some older than WWI, one from the 1890's when one of the above (war diary chap) was in the 19th Hussars serving in India, and another ancestor who was wounded at the great siege of Gibraltar in 1782, it even tells you how he was wounded, hit in the forehead by stone fragments from an exploding wall.

 

It's an amazing hobby.

[Jeff]

I had a free trial on ancestry and was very underwhelmed... You need to know a good deal of information beforehand for it to work

[Jambo-Jimbo]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I had a free trial on ancestry and was very underwhelmed... You need to know a good deal of information beforehand for it to work

 

Yeh, they make it sound all so easy that you just type in a name and your whole family history is there in front of you.

That might work for a very few people and even then all depends on someone else doing all the research previously and then putting it out on Ancestry, but as I cautioned before don't readily trust what someone else has done, because I've seen it so many times that it's wrong and then other people come along and just copy the same mistake.

 

One example, on Ancestry last time I looked, there were 8 trees which had an ancestor of mine (and theirs) and had her death date simply as '1880, Scotland', now it's clear that not one of them has actually checked that, because if they had they'd discover that the wifey actually died on the 28 January 1878, but the very fact that 8 have the same wrong date, probably means that 7 have just copied the wrong date that someone else had originally put out, and probably because they couldn't be bothered to do the research themselves.

 

[Peakybunnet]

I have done a ton of research and this is my family chart. For all the coloured blocks that is a name and a generation fanning out.

 

I have used mainly 

 

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

 

To do my research after haven spoke to older family members. It only covers Scotland though. 

 

I have also used my heritage which is pretty good but not as user friendly as the Scottish site. It gives a lot of English info along with some global information. 

 

Both cost money but I have become addicted and am now waiting for my DNA results to try and find hidden members of the family from the skeletal cupboard.  

[Peakybunnet]

19 hours ago, weehammy said:

I managed to get a wealth of information using the Scotland’s People website. You get access to all the Scottish Statutory Records (births, marriages, deaths, census returns) going back to the mid 19 th C and to the Parish Records that preceded these. You need to register and searches are free but you have to buy credits to see the scanned images of documents. The credits are not expensive but it’s easy to look at the wrong info. if you are researching very common first or surnames. That’s where already having information from family sources on dates, names, locations, etc. helps to identify the correct records. Some of the records are difficult to read being handwritten in ink but you can zoom in online. You also need to watch out for misspellings made by the registrar but the website allows you to look for similar as well as exact names. Another interesting and potentially confusing feature is that it was not uncommon in Victorian times for parents to give a child the same name as one who had died previously in infancy.
Most of us in Scotland and the wider UK share common ancestry with very poor people who lived on the land and began to move into cities in the later 19thC when changes to agricultural practice led to less work in rural communities. Finding that you’re descended from Walter Scott or Henry Raeburn is largely confined to TV programmes.

 

Very true, going back a 150 years ago most of my ancestors, were Ploughmen, Dykers, Farm Workers and Domestic servants. Turn of the 20th Century many had moved into Dundee working in the Jute Mills and squashed into tenement slums. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

21 hours ago, weehammy said:

Another interesting and potentially confusing feature is that it was not uncommon in Victorian times for parents to give a child the same name as one who had died previously in infancy.
 

 

Mrs JJ is a descendant of one of these cases, the first born son died in infancy and they named another son by the same name, this was in the 1870's.

 

Don't know if anybody has one of these other confusing things, actually I have two cases of illegitimate females changing their names to their father's name just prior to their marriage, presumably to try and cover up that they were Illegitimate.  In both cases they used their birth surname (mother's surname) for the first 20 odd years of their life then used their father's surname when they got married, one of them switched her middle name (which was her father's surname) over with her birth surname thus becoming a completely different person, she even said that her parents were married but her father was deceased.  Her parents were never married and her father was very much alive and living in another part of Edinburgh at the time of her marriage in the mid 1890's, whether she knew that or not I don't know, but I do because I tracked him down.

 

But these are nothing compared to the total confusion that death certifcates all too often throw up.  

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Not stuff that I'm really into but I found a family tree in my recently deceased dads house. Not something he'd done but I think a cousin of his had sent him. Goes back to the early 1800s when I'm guessing my family turned up in Ayrshire from Ireland. Odd thing is, over the space of a century our surname changed from *****ing to *****en as we moved east. Even odder is our daughter was named Catherine after her mums mum but there's at least 6 Catherine's mentioned in the family tree.

 

[Helzibob]

On 07/05/2021 at 12:01, Jeff said:

I had a free trial on ancestry and was very underwhelmed... You need to know a good deal of information beforehand for it to work

That’s my issue. I have very little info. It’s my dads side I would like more info on. My grandparents both died in the early 80’s. I know my grandpa was born in Belfast before coming to Scotland aged 1. My auntie tried to get my grandpas birth certificate years ago but she was told the IRA bombed the records office so no info was available. Not sure where I should even start. 

[LeftBack]

My friend Karl Pilkington says he’ll never do it because if you have an Einstein in the family, everyone will be talking about it, so you’re gonna find out your great, great grandfather was a murderer or a rapist or something, so just don’t go there! It’s probably bad!

[Doctor FinnBarr]

4 hours ago, LeftBack said:

My friend Karl Pilkington says he’ll never do it because if you have an Einstein in the family, everyone will be talking about it, so you’re gonna find out your great, great grandfather was a murderer or a rapist or something, so just don’t go there! It’s probably bad!

 

No quite in the same vein but the wife's aunt went searching for her real parents after her adoptive parents had passed away. She found her mother was still alive but her dad had hung himself on the day she was born, so had her uncle, from the same branch if you get my gist.

Edited May 9, 2021 by FinnBarr Saunders

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 hours ago, Helzibob said:

That’s my issue. I have very little info. It’s my dads side I would like more info on. My grandparents both died in the early 80’s. I know my grandpa was born in Belfast before coming to Scotland aged 1. My auntie tried to get my grandpas birth certificate years ago but she was told the IRA bombed the records office so no info was available. Not sure where I should even start. 

 

Tracing your Irish ancestry can be a real problem, the main records office in Dublin was burnt down in 1922 and a lot of the Irish records burnt along with it, including almost all the Irish census records, the only survivors were the 1901 & 1911 and a very small amount from the other years.

 

Fortunately many of the Irish clergy hadn't sent their parish records to Dublin and therefore it is these records which survived, simply because they weren't in Dublin at the time the records office was attacked.

 

This site has some good advice and info which you may find of interest.

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

[Helzibob]

53 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Tracing your Irish ancestry can be a real problem, the main records office in Dublin was burnt down in 1922 and a lot of the Irish records burnt along with it, including almost all the Irish census records, the only survivors were the 1901 & 1911 and a very small amount from the other years.

 

Fortunately many of the Irish clergy hadn't sent their parish records to Dublin and therefore it is these records which survived, simply because they weren't in Dublin at the time the records office was attacked.

 

This site has some good advice and info which you may find of interest.

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

Cheers for the info Jimbo. 

[redjambo]

For anyone who is interested (taken from https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/)

 

Coronavirus Update - Limited Phased Restart of Select Search Room Services

 

As a result of upcoming changes to Coronavirus restrictions by the Scottish Government, NRS will shortly be commencing a limited reopening of the Historical and ScotlandsPeople Search Rooms in Edinburgh.  The Legal Search Room remains closed until further notice.

 

The Historical Search Room will open from Monday 26th April and the ScotlandsPeople Search Room will reopen from Tuesday 4th May. Both search rooms will be opening with limited capacity and strict COVID-19 safety measures in place and face coverings must be worn (exemptions available) - see our "Safe Visit Agreement" for more information.

 

Any customer wishing to visit one of the search rooms must book a seat using the Contact Us form.  Please note that at this time the ScotlandsPeople search room is only open for customers with a business need.

 

Other on-site services remain closed, so customers can continue to order certificates using the ‘Certificates and copies’ tab. Certificate ordering will be available Monday to Friday between 9am and 4.30pm (excluding public holidays). We have removed our priority ordering channel and collection option. We will do our best to complete orders as soon as we can however this may not be within our usual timescales.

 

As always we will continue to respond to online enquiries but we may not be able to give as full or as complete answers as usual. Further information on the status of our services is available here

[redjambo]

On 09/05/2021 at 10:50, Helzibob said:

That’s my issue. I have very little info. It’s my dads side I would like more info on. My grandparents both died in the early 80’s. I know my grandpa was born in Belfast before coming to Scotland aged 1. My auntie tried to get my grandpas birth certificate years ago but she was told the IRA bombed the records office so no info was available. Not sure where I should even start. 

 

You can get images of NI certificates from GRONI (https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/) - that might be a good place to start, at least to contact them and ask them about the birth certificate.

[Fxxx the SPFL]

25 minutes ago, redjambo said:

For anyone who is interested (taken from https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/)

 

Coronavirus Update - Limited Phased Restart of Select Search Room Services

 

As a result of upcoming changes to Coronavirus restrictions by the Scottish Government, NRS will shortly be commencing a limited reopening of the Historical and ScotlandsPeople Search Rooms in Edinburgh.  The Legal Search Room remains closed until further notice.

 

The Historical Search Room will open from Monday 26th April and the ScotlandsPeople Search Room will reopen from Tuesday 4th May. Both search rooms will be opening with limited capacity and strict COVID-19 safety measures in place and face coverings must be worn (exemptions available) - see our "Safe Visit Agreement" for more information.

 

Any customer wishing to visit one of the search rooms must book a seat using the Contact Us form.  Please note that at this time the ScotlandsPeople search room is only open for customers with a business need.

 

Other on-site services remain closed, so customers can continue to order certificates using the ‘Certificates and copies’ tab. Certificate ordering will be available Monday to Friday between 9am and 4.30pm (excluding public holidays). We have removed our priority ordering channel and collection option. We will do our best to complete orders as soon as we can however this may not be within our usual timescales.

 

As always we will continue to respond to online enquiries but we may not be able to give as full or as complete answers as usual. Further information on the status of our services is available here

red you know you really want to do the daily stats again i have done a couple but crap compared to yours 

[off the rails]

I have a good quality photo of a soldier in WW1 uniform.

I would like to know what regiment he was in and any other details. The cap badge is in full view but out of focus.

Does anyone have any idea where to start with this?

[FORTHCLYDE]

Twenty years ago I went to Register House In Princes St and over 4/5 daily sittings traced back about 11 generations.

I don't live in Edinburgh anymore so I am having problems tracing my paternal grandmothers family as I have been told I may

be related to a famous Hearts player. Some details online cost £3 but others have to be ordered at approx. £14. 

I don't know what Register House costs today but it's worthwhile for a days search. 

[redjambo]

15 minutes ago, FORTHCLYDE said:

Twenty years ago I went to Register House In Princes St and over 4/5 daily sittings traced back about 11 generations.

I don't live in Edinburgh anymore so I am having problems tracing my paternal grandmothers family as I have been told I may

be related to a famous Hearts player. Some details online cost £3 but others have to be ordered at approx. £14. 

I don't know what Register House costs today but it's worthwhile for a days search. 

 

Getting the image of a birth, marriage, death or census record usually costs £1.50. It usually works out cheaper however to get yourself to Register House, or one of the satellite facilities around the country, and print out records. Getting back 11 generations is excellent work indeed - you're obviously of noble stock.

 

If you want me to see if I can help you at all with your difficulty tracing your paternal grandmother's family, drop me a PM.

Edited January 12, 2022 by redjambo

[redjambo]

14 hours ago, off the rails said:

I have a good quality photo of a soldier in WW1 uniform.

I would like to know what regiment he was in and any other details. The cap badge is in full view but out of focus.

Does anyone have any idea where to start with this?

 

You could try posting the image on Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryHistory or https://www.reddit.com/r/IdentifyTheseRibbons/

[Jambo-Jimbo]

14 hours ago, off the rails said:

I have a good quality photo of a soldier in WW1 uniform.

I would like to know what regiment he was in and any other details. The cap badge is in full view but out of focus.

Does anyone have any idea where to start with this?

 

I had similar, although the cap badge wasn't all that clear, anyway looked and then asked on this website, The Great War Forum https://www.greatwarforum.org/    Not only did they identify the regiment (Royal Artillery) but someone went further and said the chap was in either the Royal Field or Royal Horse Artillery, because of the belt he was wearing. 

They were right, I later found out that he was in the Royal Horse Artillery.

[Fxxx the SPFL]

The kids got me a DNA test for my 60th birthday probably checking i was their dad lol anyway i digress turns out i have around 52% Scandinavian in my ancestral make up which i thought was bollocks quite surprising since i don't have ginger hair and am only 5'5''. So decided to check family details and on my late paternal grannies side who was a Robertson i traced back to the 1740's pretty quickly but one side of her grandparents had the name Groundwater and lived in Orkney so there you have it. Viking pillagers in the family.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Been working on my Illegitimate's lately, not the children but who the father could be.

A couple are a complete dead-end, no info whatsoever, nothing to work with, another two I had a name, not at the birth but when the lassie's got married, they used their father's name, assuming they hadn't just made the name up that is.  Found one strong candidate and another one I'm quietly confident that's he's the right guy, can never prove it though, not 100% I can't.

 

Another one I can though, as the mother took the guy to court for paternity in 1883, which she won, I knew his name already, but this gave me his occupation and address, low and behold in the 1881 census, there's a chap with the same name, occupation, living at the same address....bingo, got him.  Bit of a tragic story, he married someone else and they had 5 kids, then in the late 1890's it all went pear shaped for him and the family, the youngest child died, then a few months later the wife, he then lost his job and then he was found floating in the River Leven, accidental death was recorded, but I do wonder about that.  Found the 4 surviving kids in the 1901 census being cared for in the North of England, not spent much time looking for them, I will try and find what became of them, I do think 3 came back up to Fife when they were old enough, not confirmed yet.

They would have been half brothers & sisters to one of my Great Grandfather's, so they were family, they are blood relations to me.

[fbjambo]

Every now and then I do a little bit around my family history via scotlands people. Also looked on ancestry.com

 

Spent the day in register house a few years ago and traced my maternal grandfathers birth mum and original birth certificate.  We didn't know he was adopted until he died and we realised his birth certificate was amended. I have a whole different family in Edinburgh but have never contacted any of them.  His birth mum was not married and died when he was around 18 months but we dont know if this is when he was adopted.  

 

For military records I've used forces war records in the past https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/search-military-records-for-free

[Jambo_jim2001]

Win the big lottery,unknown relatives will find you 🤔😃

[RobboM]

Back in my working days I worked for both GRO(S) and National Archives of Scotland and the joint organisation, NRS. One project on military records I was pleased to play a part in was the Soldiers Wills. It wasn't a huge undertaking compared to many of the other record series we completed but it was a series of records which was little used, hard to access and,as a consequence, very little known. IIRC they were individual documents, each folded into their own envelope, in maybe 600 boxes of about 50 wills in each arranged by date of the will being recorded. We had a skeleton index entry from the Scottish National War Memorial which we had keyed up, worked through all the documents which were then paginated and carried out any necessary conservation work on all the documents, digitised all the images, re-boxed all the original documents for better long term preservation, linked the index entries to the images and added extra information for the index entry. All competed in time to be part of the Archive's efforts to mark the anniversary of The Great War.

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, RobboM said:

Back in my working days I worked for both GRO(S) and National Archives of Scotland and the joint organisation, NRS. One project on military records I was pleased to play a part in was the Soldiers Wills. It wasn't a huge undertaking compared to many of the other record series we completed but it was a series of records which was little used, hard to access and,as a consequence, very little known. IIRC they were individual documents, each folded into their own envelope, in maybe 600 boxes of about 50 wills in each arranged by date of the will being recorded. We had a skeleton index entry from the Scottish National War Memorial which we had keyed up, worked through all the documents which were then paginated and carried out any necessary conservation work on all the documents, digitised all the images, re-boxed all the original documents for better long term preservation, linked the index entries to the images and added extra information for the index entry. All competed in time to be part of the Archive's efforts to mark the anniversary of The Great War.

 

Nice job. I'd never noticed these before so thanks for the heads-up.