2021 Scottish Parliament Election (Thursday 6th May 2021)

[Enzo Chiefo]

Coincidentally,  for anyone who still believes there are piles of Scottish tax, hidden in a safe in Boris Johnson's office, the Scotsman have covered the subject today

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-exactly-how-much-money-does-scotland-contribute-to-england-and-what-is-the-barnett-formula-3233129

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

So there's a wee bit at the Exchequer where UK taxes are collated, then when HS2 money is given out, a wee note says don't touch the contribution from Scotland.

You're correct, the Scottish government doesn't contribute, but that doesn't mean that some tax raised in Scotland that goes to the Exchequer isn't used.

I'm not sure what you mean?? All our taxes that go to UK are returned along with an extra £15bn. Hs2 is covered from the English budget, paid for by English tax payers.

[pablo]

 

This is exactly my reasoning behind my point the other day about any future vote being on a joint White Paper, prepared between the UK and SG. Let's see the numbers! 

 

Maximum transparency or gtf. 

 

[ri Alban]

 

@Boris we're you looking for figures about Scotland's imports from rUK. 2013/14 pre referendum. 

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28916642.amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16207914465478&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

Both imports and exports to  and from Scotland have grown 2% from 2014. 

 

 

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/

 

 

Take from these what you will. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

Oil and gas in the North Sea are 95% Scottish, yet we get 8.2%. In fact the take the oil and sell it back to us.

[Boris]

34 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

 

@Boris we're you looking for figures about Scotland's imports from rUK. 2013/14 pre referendum. 

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28916642.amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16207914465478&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

Both imports and exports to  and from Scotland have grown 2% from 2014. 

 

 

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/

 

 

Take from these what you will. 

Thanks. So we import more from rUK than export.

So, whilst it's important to trade with rUK, it's also important for rUK to trade with us, therefore you would imagine that a mutually beneficial agreement would come into play.

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

Thanks. So we import more from rUK than export.

So, whilst it's important to trade with rUK, it's also important for rUK to trade with us, therefore you would imagine that a mutually beneficial agreement would come into play.

I think you underestimate the ill will and the lengths people will go to to cut their own noses off when they don’t get their way. Negotiations will end in disaster for all imo. 

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I think you underestimate the ill will and the lengths people will go to to cut their own noses off when they don’t get their way. Negotiations will end in disaster for all imo. 

 

That being the case, I can only see one "loser", and it's not Scotland!

 

But assuming that did happen, it kind of makes it clear that remaining in the Union is based on an act of coercion by rUK.  If folk want to go along with that, then that is their choice, but for me I'd rather be shorn of a bullying partner.

 

Not saying independence would be easy from the off, but equally we wouldn't become a basket case banana republic either.

 

We'd do just fine, and in the longer term maybe even evolve into a far more progressive state, able to rebalance and focus our economy on what matters rather than the needs of the the Tory Party.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

That being the case, I can only see one "loser", and it's not Scotland!

 

But assuming that did happen, it kind of makes it clear that remaining in the Union is based on an act of coercion by rUK.  If folk want to go along with that, then that is their choice, but for me I'd rather be shorn of a bullying partner.

 

Not saying independence would be easy from the off, but equally we wouldn't become a basket case banana republic either.

 

We'd do just fine, and in the longer term maybe even evolve into a far more progressive state, able to rebalance and focus our economy on what matters rather than the needs of the the Tory Party.

 

Yeah, that will work.

 

Remember that Scotland needs tarriff free access to the UK infrastructure - roads, rail etc to export/import the majority of its goods to the continent.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Yeah, that will work.

 

Remember that Scotland needs tarriff free access to the UK infrastructure - roads, rail etc to export/import the majority of its goods to the continent.

 

Does it really?

 

So they couldn't expand what they already have, or indeed add new ports?

 

 

[frankblack]

15 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Does it really?

 

So they couldn't expand what they already have, or indeed add new ports?

 

 

 

Road and rail is a far more effective means of delivering goods to the rest of the UK and the continent.  I'm not expert on the logistical reasons but the haulage companies seem to prefer it.

[Dazo]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Does it really?

 

So they couldn't expand what they already have, or indeed add new ports?

 

 

Off course they could but these things cost money and a lot of it. Fairy dust just isn’t going to cut it when it comes to providing this bright new world we seem to be getting promised. 
 

I’m not forecasting any sort of doomsday scenario for an independent Scotland but I do wonder in what way people expect their lives to be so much better in an independent Scotland. Political persuasions aside and purely on a personal level what is it people think will improve to make this worthwhile. 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Off course they could but these things cost money and a lot of it. Fairy dust just isn’t going to cut it when it comes to providing this bright new world we seem to be getting promised. 
 

I’m not forecasting any sort of doomsday scenario for an independent Scotland but I do wonder in what way people expect their lives to be so much better in an independent Scotland. Political persuasions aside and purely on a personal level what is it people think will improve to make this worthwhile. 

 

Democratic accountability for me.

 

Why should Scotland (or Wales and N. Ire) be forced down a road it doesn't want to go down because of the way the British political system operates?

 

Previously there had been by and large consensus but as Britain fragments and politics has become more tribal, the inadequacies of the Westminster system are being laid bare (IMO).  Reform that and you know, the Union may well survive.  Keep the status quo and eventually the whole thing will implode.  Again, IMO.

[Dazo]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Democratic accountability for me.

 

Why should Scotland (or Wales and N. Ire) be forced down a road it doesn't want to go down because of the way the British political system operates?

 

Previously there had been by and large consensus but as Britain fragments and politics has become more tribal, the inadequacies of the Westminster system are being laid bare (IMO).  Reform that and you know, the Union may well survive.  Keep the status quo and eventually the whole thing will implode.  Again, IMO.

That’s all fair enough Boris but with the country basically split down the middle one side will be forced into something. I’m okay with how things are so essentially as long as it’s not you that’s okay ? 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

That’s all fair enough Boris but with the country basically split down the middle one side will be forced into something. I’m okay with how things are so essentially as long as it’s not you that’s okay ? 

 

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinions, and as you say, it's pretty much split 50/50, so totally understand why people don't want any upheaval or change.

 

I'd certainly reconsider my stance if the UK system was more democratic and we actually functioned as a Union of "equal nations".  That, I fear, may be an incredibly long time coming.

[Dirty Deeds]

A question to the unionist out there.  Do you want to stay in the union because:

 

a) Scotland continue to underpay our share and so over-benefit?

 

b) Your politics are aligned to the Tories

 

c) You support Labour but think we are better off with a Tory Westminster than independence 

 

d) A shared history that is more important that today's political squabbles 

 

Or something else?

 

I'm genuinely interested as all I see on this site are entrenched views from both sides. A lot argument but little explanation. 

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Dazo said:

That’s all fair enough Boris but with the country basically split down the middle one side will be forced into something. I’m okay with how things are so essentially as long as it’s not you that’s okay ? 

Living standards have plummeted in the last 15 years, food banks are a thing now, the Tories rule by decree and will continue to do so for the foreseeable, we've been taken out of the EU and the hardship from that hasn't even landed yet, and that's before we get to the TRILLIONS of debt Westminster's built up.

 

I honestly can't understand how anyone could be okay with how things are unless it's just a case of "Well my life's ok so whatever"

 

Which is understandable of course, a lot of people will be like that, but it's a position that involves turning your back on the hardship and problems the status quo is causing for those worse off.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Smithee

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Yeah, that will work.

 

Remember that Scotland needs tarriff free access to the UK infrastructure - roads, rail etc to export/import the majority of its goods to the continent.

 

How does Ireland manage to have a balance of trade surplus? Genuinely would like to understand how they can do it but we (by which I mean the UK at present, but Scotland possibly in future)

can't?

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/balance-of-trade

 

[Dazo]

47 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Living standards have plummeted in the last 15 years, food banks are a thing now, the Tories rule by decree and will continue to do so for the foreseeable, we've been taken out of the EU and the hardship from that hasn't even landed yet, and that's before we get to the TRILLIONS of debt Westminster's built up.

 

I honestly can't understand how anyone could be okay with how things are unless it's just a case of "Well my life's ok so whatever"

 

Which is understandable of course, a lot of people will be like that, but it's a position that involves turning your back on the hardship and problems the status quo is causing for those worse off.

 

Tories, tories tories eh. You know how pathetic that sounds after 14 years of snp governments ? All you talk about is blame with no substance to anything that will make things better. Dunno about you but I pay extra tax to fund that decline so yeah I’m okay with a uk government  since repeated Scottish governments have made the country worse. So until the snp have the balls to put any sort of plan in front of me on how they will makes things better other than it’s the will of the Scottish people(which is isn’t) and how it will be paid for I’ll stick by what has served me okay so far in life. 

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinions, and as you say, it's pretty much split 50/50, so totally understand why people don't want any upheaval or change.

 

I'd certainly reconsider my stance if the UK system was more democratic and we actually functioned as a Union of "equal nations".  That, I fear, may be an incredibly long time coming.

And nothing wrong with that point of view despite being on the other side of it  👍

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

 

Tories, tories tories eh. You know how pathetic that sounds after 14 years of snp governments ? All you talk about is blame with no substance to anything that will make things better. Dunno about you but I pay extra tax to fund that decline so yeah I’m okay with a uk government  since repeated Scottish governments have made the country worse. So until the snp have the balls to put any sort of plan in front of me on how they will makes things better other than it’s the will of the Scottish people(which is isn’t) and how it will be paid for I’ll stick by what has served me okay so far in life. 

 

Not just the Tories, the end of labour too, but yeah, I'll blame the party taking the UK down the toilet for taking us down the toilet and won't apologise for wanting away from Tory domination.

[Pasquale for King]

https://theferret.scot/electoral-commission-green-party-far-right/

[Dazo]

28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Not just the Tories, the end of labour too, but yeah, I'll blame the party taking the UK down the toilet for taking us down the toilet and won't apologise for wanting away from Tory domination.

Cool, snp blameless then ? That chip is going to weigh you down buddy. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Cool, snp blameless then ? That chip is going to weigh you down buddy. 

I'm not saying that, and you know I'm not.

 

The English electorate decide who governs us. And they've been making a right **** of it recently.

[Dazo]

35 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'm not saying that, and you know I'm not.

 

The English electorate decide who governs us. And they've been making a right **** of it recently.

In your opinion they have. That’s the bit the snp and their supporters seem to miss, they don’t speak for everyone in Scotland never mind the will of the Scottish people. 

[Gizmo]

6 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Coincidentally,  for anyone who still believes there are piles of Scottish tax, hidden in a safe in Boris Johnson's office, the Scotsman have covered the subject today

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-exactly-how-much-money-does-scotland-contribute-to-england-and-what-is-the-barnett-formula-3233129

Wow, GERS. Again.  

Still missing all those English attributed exports then, for example. 

 

2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

How does Ireland manage to have a balance of trade surplus? Genuinely would like to understand how they can do it but we (by which I mean the UK at present, but Scotland possibly in future)

can't?

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/balance-of-trade

 

They also have higher wages than Scotland and ranked 2nd (UK 13th) on the Quality of Life index in 2020, 5th lowest inequality too.

Can't be that bad getting free of England's grip after all. 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Dazo said:

In your opinion they have. That’s the bit the snp and their supporters seem to miss, they don’t speak for everyone in Scotland never mind the will of the Scottish people. 

 

What are you actually on about? Of course it's my opinion, do I need to put IMO at the end of every post now? Surely it's really really obvious that everyone on here is giving their opinion.

 

I gave a bunch of reasons before to justify my opinion that Westminster has been terrible for the country over the last decade, you've offered nothing to refute it.

 

I'm not an SNP supporter by the way, I'm an independence supporter. 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

How does Ireland manage to have a balance of trade surplus? Genuinely would like to understand how they can do it but we (by which I mean the UK at present, but Scotland possibly in future)

can't?

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/balance-of-trade

 

 

Not relevant comparison as Ireland have been independent for over a hundred years, so you aren't going to get to their position overnight, and the real question is how much debt do you have to incurr to get there?

 

I think Edinburgh would be ****ed once all the financial jobs move down south to remain with their customer base.

[Dazo]

35 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

What are you actually on about? Of course it's my opinion, do I need to put IMO at the end of every post now? Surely it's really really obvious that everyone on here is giving their opinion.

 

I gave a bunch of reasons before to justify my opinion that Westminster has been terrible for the country over the last decade, you've offered nothing to refute it.

 

I'm not an SNP supporter by the way, I'm an independence supporter. 

I think sometimes when you make sweeping statements you do have to say in your opinion at the end of it. 
 

Your bunch of reasons covered the whole period of several snp governments and higher taxes for Scottish tax payers  yet you blamed the tories and labour. 
 

You may claim not be a snp supporter but you certainly act like one. Regardless we are never going to agree because like all the rest of the snp supporters  you like to talk the uk down and blame, offer nothing in the way of solutions other than independence. 👍

[scott herbertson]

17 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Not relevant comparison as Ireland have been independent for over a hundred years, so you aren't going to get to their position overnight, and the real question is how much debt do you have to incurr to get there?

 

I think Edinburgh would be ****ed once all the financial jobs move down south to remain with their customer base.

 

I think it's relevant to consider the medium to long term as well as the immediate future. It's a pity governments (UK and Scottish) have not done so more in my opinion.

 

It is surely also relevant to consider just why we have a balance of trades deficit and huge debt in the UK if its so wonderful to be part of it? And why we should stay in such an ineffective organisation? The argument that we are in too much debt to leave is an odd one - as if it is some sort of gambling debt with Boris as the 'Tallyman'

 

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, scott herbertson said:

 

I think it's relevant to consider the medium to long term as well as the immediate future. It's a pity governments (UK and Scottish) have not done so more in my opinion.

 

We would need to determine what impact independence would have on the short-term but we need the SNP to come clean and commit to what their plans are for currency, EU membership, deficit, share of national debt, etc.  Once we have those commitments then these can be scrutinised so that the public are properly informed and can make a balanced decision.

 

At the moment all that is talked about is a utopia with fluffy pink unicorns and a magic money tree.

 

1 minute ago, scott herbertson said:

It is surely also relevant to consider just why we have a balance of trades deficit and huge debt in the UK if its so wonderful to be part of it? And why we should stay in such an ineffective organisation? The argument that we are in too much debt to leave is an odd one - as if it is some sort of gambling debt with Boris as the 'Tallyman'

 

 

 

We would need to break that debt down and analyse it rather than speculate.  Once done we could have a sensible debate.

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I think sometimes when you make sweeping statements you do have to say in your opinion at the end of it. 
 

Your bunch of reasons covered the whole period of several snp governments and higher taxes for Scottish tax payers  yet you blamed the tories and labour. 
 

You may claim not be a snp supporter but you certainly act like one. Regardless we are never going to agree because like all the rest of the snp supporters  you like to talk the uk down and blame, offer nothing in the way of solutions other than independence. 👍

I've been talking about the nick of the whole of the UK under the Tories mate, you blaming the SNP for that?

 

I don't act like an snp supporter because I'm not one. I do act like a supporter of independence and someone with contempt for Westminster and the current breed of Tories.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

 

Tories, tories tories eh. You know how pathetic that sounds after 14 years of snp governments ? All you talk about is blame with no substance to anything that will make things better. Dunno about you but I pay extra tax to fund that decline so yeah I’m okay with a uk government  since repeated Scottish governments have made the country worse. So until the snp have the balls to put any sort of plan in front of me on how they will makes things better other than it’s the will of the Scottish people(which is isn’t) and how it will be paid for I’ll stick by what has served me okay so far in life. 

Very well said!

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Not relevant comparison as Ireland have been independent for over a hundred years, so you aren't going to get to their position overnight, and the real question is how much debt do you have to incurr to get there?

 

I think Edinburgh would be ****ed once all the financial jobs move down south to remain with their customer base.

Not sure the jobs would move.  Head Office (Brass plate) would so as to register in England, but office admin wouldn't really need to move, would it?

 

To be highly cynical, given what a basket case an indy scotland would be, would provide cheap labour for them!

[Boris]

46 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We would need to determine what impact independence would have on the short-term but we need the SNP to come clean and commit to what their plans are for currency, EU membership, deficit, share of national debt, etc.  Once we have those commitments then these can be scrutinised so that the public are properly informed and can make a balanced decision.

 

 

Isn't that what a referendum campaign would focus on?

[XB52]

43 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We would need to determine what impact independence would have on the short-term but we need the SNP to come clean and commit to what their plans are for currency, EU membership, deficit, share of national debt, etc.  Once we have those commitments then these can be scrutinised so that the public are properly informed and can make a balanced decision.

 

At the moment all that is talked about is a utopia with fluffy pink unicorns and a magic money tree.

 

 

We would need to break that debt down and analyse it rather than speculate.  Once done we could have a sensible debate.

Regarding this part - we need the SNP to come clean and commit to what their plans are for currency, EU membership, deficit, share of national debt, etc.

 

Currency - use sterling in the short term before moving to our own currency

EU - obviously plan is to join/rejoin the EU

Share of debt - take our share of debt for a share of assets

The above are all SNP policy 

As for deficit, we don't currently have one

[Boris]

53 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

I think it's relevant to consider the medium to long term as well as the immediate future. It's a pity governments (UK and Scottish) have not done so more in my opinion.

 

It is surely also relevant to consider just why we have a balance of trades deficit and huge debt in the UK if its so wonderful to be part of it? And why we should stay in such an ineffective organisation? The argument that we are in too much debt to leave is an odd one - as if it is some sort of gambling debt with Boris as the 'Tallyman'

 

 

Hear hear!

[Dazo]

31 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I've been talking about the nick of the whole of the UK under the Tories mate, you blaming the SNP for that?

 

I don't act like an snp supporter because I'm not one. I do act like a supporter of independence and someone with contempt for Westminster and the current breed of Tories.

 

Are you in a position to judge the state for the ruk? And If they are to blame for such a nick why are they still in power ?

 

Looks to me as if a lot of voters in the devolved nations who fall for the blame the tories line rather than judge their own Governments. 

[XB52]

Just now, Boris said:

 

Isn't that what a referendum campaign would focus on?

Exactly. The unionists are jumping up and down demanding concrete plans while SG will continue to concentrate on the day job. Once a referendum is agreed, then is the time to discuss the plans

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Regarding this part - we need the SNP to come clean and commit to what their plans are for currency, EU membership, deficit, share of national debt, etc.

 

Currency - use sterling in the short term before moving to our own currency

EU - obviously plan is to join/rejoin the EU

Share of debt - take our share of debt for a share of assets

The above are all SNP policy 

As for deficit, we don't currently have one

 

They haven't committed to any of this, despite some of it being mentioned, along with many other factors like a hard border.

[XB52]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

They haven't committed to any of this, despite some of it being mentioned, along with many other factors like a hard border.

They have stated their policies. Of course things could change but the time to demand commitments is once a referendum has been agreed. 

[Space Mackerel]

8 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I'm not sure what you mean?? All our taxes that go to UK are returned along with an extra £15bn. Hs2 is covered from the English budget, paid for by English tax payers.

 

 

Give me half your wages a month and I'll buy you a Ferrari, you can come round on a Sunday and wash it for me. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Give me half your wages a month and I'll buy you a Ferrari, you can come round on a Sunday and wash it for me. 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, Dazo said:

In your opinion they have. That’s the bit the snp and their supporters seem to miss, they don’t speak for everyone in Scotland never mind the will of the Scottish people. 

An opinion based on facts. Was Brexit the will of the Scottish people? No government speaks for everyone. 

[scott herbertson]

22 minutes ago, Boris said:

Hear hear!

 

 

lol

 

You could do worse....

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

 

Honestly, how are people so stupid?

 

https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2019/11/15/the-indisputable-thievery-of-the-uk-union/

[Space Mackerel]

It's not like they have previous for it.

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/12/19/how-britain-stole-45-trillion-from-india

[Boris]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

They haven't committed to any of this, despite some of it being mentioned, along with many other factors like a hard border.

 

Regards a hard border, I doubt there would be one over night, as Scotland wouldn't need to have one if it didn't want one.

 

If Scotland were to join the EU, then I guess there would be based on rUK's insistence as a result of the Brexit agreement.

 

 

[gjcc]

7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

An opinion based on facts. Was Brexit the will of the Scottish people? No government speaks for everyone. 

Based on unionists logic (only 37% voted for it), Brexit wasn’t the Will of the UK never mind Scotland. 

[Pasquale for King]

14 minutes ago, gjcc said:

Based on unionists logic (only 37% voted for it), Brexit wasn’t the Will of the UK never mind Scotland. 

Indeed, they use certain aspects but aren’t usually picked up on it.