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Mikey1874

The female officer 'discharged her weapon' by mistake. She thought it was her taser. 

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John Findlay

Poor selection process in choosing who should be a police officer, totally poor training of those who are selected. Instead of their firearm being a last resort, they are trained as it being the first resort and many the only resort.

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JamesM48
5 minutes ago, Jamie Walker Tash said:

The biggest arse hole country on the planet. 

Correct/ A country who are hyper vigilant and absolutely paranoid about their own safety yet are the most aggressive country in the world.  I lived in Houston for a while. It was mental place. 

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3 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Correct/ A country who are hyper vigilant and absolutely paranoid about their own safety yet are the most aggressive country in the world.  I lived in Houston for a while. It was mental place. 

Completely disagree - lived in Boston area for 10 years. 

 

Like every country it has it's share of arseholes and i do strongly disagree with their gun laws (as many Americans I know do also).  But there's lots of good, honest and friendly people in that country and an overgeneralisation of calling is 'biggest arse hole country on the planet' and folks agreeing with that statement shows absolute narrow mindness.

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14 minutes ago, Jamie Walker Tash said:

The biggest arse hole country on the planet. 

Is the correct answer.

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15 minutes ago, Jamie Walker Tash said:

The biggest arse hole country on the planet. 

:spoton:

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Sharpie

It truly beggars belief that  a trained police officer could make such an error, I have never had or used a Taser, but have had and used a firearm, and know exactly how it should feel. Again as in the other case it seems the victim was handcuffed, why could two officers not have just manhandled him to the ground controlled him without kneeling on his throat or tasering him, as I say it beggars belief. Spent twelve years of my life dealing with unruly suspects/prisoners, never had handcuffs or a gun, never lost or injured a detainee. Spent twenty six  years of my life carrying a handgun, have had it unholstered and prepared, but never had any reason to discharge.  at eighteen/nineteen years old carried an armed and loaded weapon every day every duty. Had one occasion to place a loaded cocked weapon under a mans chin and had carried out the due warnings when within seconds of the ultimate pull, realised that the situation was not what it seemed, the funny feeling throughout was just that something wasn't quite right. That was proved so. Possibly just me but the thought of taking another humans life is abhorrent, but if necessary would be done.

 

There is something deeply wrong in that area with police training, discipline, and corrective actions regarding neglect or disobedience. Charges must be brought of at least manslaughter, a woeful defence is I didn't know which of my weapons I had in my hand,  I submit my Lord that is utter what makes the grass grow green in Texas.

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Spellczech

They are scared. Country is full of big guys with guns. I would never do that job

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Vlad Magic
22 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

It truly beggars belief that  a trained police officer could make such an error, I have never had or used a Taser, but have had and used a firearm, and know exactly how it should feel. Again as in the other case it seems the victim was handcuffed, why could two officers not have just manhandled him to the ground controlled him without kneeling on his throat or tasering him, as I say it beggars belief. Spent twelve years of my life dealing with unruly suspects/prisoners, never had handcuffs or a gun, never lost or injured a detainee. Spent twenty six  years of my life carrying a handgun, have had it unholstered and prepared, but never had any reason to discharge.  at eighteen/nineteen years old carried an armed and loaded weapon every day every duty. Had one occasion to place a loaded cocked weapon under a mans chin and had carried out the due warnings when within seconds of the ultimate pull, realised that the situation was not what it seemed, the funny feeling throughout was just that something wasn't quite right. That was proved so. Possibly just me but the thought of taking another humans life is abhorrent, but if necessary would be done.

 

There is something deeply wrong in that area with police training, discipline, and corrective actions regarding neglect or disobedience. Charges must be brought of at least manslaughter, a woeful defence is I didn't know which of my weapons I had in my hand,  I submit my Lord that is utter what makes the grass grow green in Texas.


As far as I know police tazers are held in holsters like a pistol, have grips like a pistol and for all intensive purposes other than what the deliver down the bad end look like pistols.

 

They are not the old traditional looking tazer which resembles a razor with the sharp bit being the electric.

 

Modern tazers have a charge which is fired into the body connected to copper wires.

 

Anyway I don’t know the ins and outs of the case I’m just saying it is actually plausible that the officer drew her tazer and shot this unfortunate fellow by accident.

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Seymour M Hersh
7 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

They are scared. Country is full of big guys with guns. I would never do that job

 

You only have to watch the video of the New Mexico Officer being shot to death by a drug dealer to see that. Her excuse is unacceptable though, regardless of how scared she may or may not have been. 

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Just been reading about this , hearing comments from the lads mum and his brother , not making a lot of sense at the moment in terms of what the mum n brother are saying and that he drive several blocks after being shot. Lots of bodycam footage etc though so hopefully it’ll clear it up quick.
 

Does sound like it is more a tragic accident due to the ridiculous culture there this time. No excuse for the looting etc , the violent protests either but thats at leaat more understandable when its minutes from where Chauvin is on trial. 

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Sharpie

With the proper training and the communications systems now available although  understandable use of the word scared is not an emotion that should be in a well trained, organised department with good policies.  Certainly caution, patience, attention to detail but fear is a bad influencer. With regard to the look like, are discharged like etc for tasers similarities to a firearm I would have to suspect the weight difference alone would be somewhat of a clue that you have the wrong weapon in your hand. I would suspect the issued weapons are now a bit more sophisticated than my old Smith and Wesson six shooter, but the ammunition will still be copper shells with lead slugs. The wee sidebar to these occurrences  is the future danger to other police officers as bad guys start to think even more than now to hell with it if anybody is going to get shot it ain't going to be me.

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JackLadd

If you don't comply exactly the way these cops want they go into robocop mode which escalates from there. It's not rocket science to follow their instructions. 

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1 hour ago, Gards said:

Completely disagree - lived in Boston area for 10 years. 

 

Like every country it has it's share of arseholes and i do strongly disagree with their gun laws (as many Americans I know do also).  But there's lots of good, honest and friendly people in that country and an overgeneralisation of calling is 'biggest arse hole country on the planet' and folks agreeing with that statement shows absolute narrow mindness.

I'm sure there are lots of lovely people in the States but as for the actual country and how it's run? It's the biggest arsehole on the planet.

 

Sure, there are worse places. But they're ***** and have surpassed arseholery. As far as just arseholes stand, the US is a clear leader. 

 

 

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If you are unable to tell if you are holding a lethal pistol or a taser then you shouldn't be allowed to carry either one of them.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cade said:

If you are unable to tell if you are holding a lethal pistol or a taser then you shouldn't be allowed to carry either one of them.

 

 

Winner of most accurate post of the year goes to... 

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58 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:


As far as I know police tazers are held in holsters like a pistol, have grips like a pistol and for all intensive purposes other than what the deliver down the bad end look like pistols.

 

They are not the old traditional looking tazer which resembles a razor with the sharp bit being the electric.

 

Modern tazers have a charge which is fired into the body connected to copper wires.

 

Anyway I don’t know the ins and outs of the case I’m just saying it is actually plausible that the officer drew her tazer and shot this unfortunate fellow by accident.

A hand gun is a heavy thing. A lot heavier than you’d expect if you haven’t handled one before. And a cop would be very used to that feeling having spent hours on the gun range. There’s also the small matter of the safety on a pistol. 

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Sooperstar

Are people talking about different incidents here or have I completely missed someone firing a gun in the clip of the army dude being pepper sprayed?

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ArcticJambo
7 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

Are people talking about different incidents here or have I completely missed someone firing a gun in the clip of the army dude being pepper sprayed?

I think so, 'accidental discharge' in Minneapolis on sUnday killed a man.

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Sooperstar
23 minutes ago, ArcticJambo said:

I think so, 'accidental discharge' in Minneapolis on sUnday killed a man.

Thanks for clearing that up!

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Sharpie
39 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

Are people talking about different incidents here or have I completely missed someone firing a gun in the clip of the army dude being pepper sprayed?

 

40 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

Are people talking about different incidents here or have I completely missed someone firing a gun in the clip of the army dude being pepper sprayed?

 Yes the army officer was stopped for a traffic offence, he was a lieutenant and a medic in a neatly pressed camo uniform. He was ordered to get out of the  car and responded by saying that he did not have to get out of the car for a traffic offence He was a very polite young black man and as he pointed out serving his Country. The cops got aggressive and verbally abusive and loud, they started grabbing at his hands, and when he resisted pepper sprayed him. Another incident where one could not help but get the impression that the main cause was racial, from what was shown the young man was confronted in a manner much more aggressive than required. He has I believe launched a law suit. It looked like he had a camera system of some type set up in the car. Its hard for an old policeman to say it, but these guys in the last few publicised incidents are dong nothing for this oldies pride of service or police past.

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Sharpie

The shooting at the school in Louisville Kentucky,the armed suspect was a pupil at  the school was killed after firing at and wounding a police officer.  

 

Looked on the 'net at some Tasers. Yes there are some that look like a gun, but seem to be more plastic than metal. There was one displayed in a holster with a pistol grip but it was bright yellow and again seemed to be plastic. The scene was on TV.  There appeared to be a number of officers at the scene. The accused seemed to be handcuffed but was struggling. The female officer is seen aiming her obviously automatic weapon, black metal, and had it at arms length aiming at the accused. She was calling the required warning Taser, Taser ,Taser, and then fired one fatal shot.  How she was ever hired if she could not tell that was her weapon in her hand, she seemed by her stance to be aiming at the suspect, to do so she must have seen even if only for a second what she had in her hand, its surprising that none of the officers in attendance saw the gun, but that is understandable given the circumstances. At one point I did see a flash of yellow on one of the other officers belts, this could have been a Taser as I described above. A tragedy for everyone concerned, a young life lost and another no doubt ruined. Thats the problem in life and death situations, other than suicides and illness deaths are generally something that happens in seconds, that is why the tragedy of it never leaves those who witnessed or investigate it.

 

Just to have a totally crappy day I watched Hannity explaining why police act impetuously, garbage of course, but still fighting the election campaign when the Democrats were suggesting police defunding. Not a popular theme with the strong support to his friend and golf partner of the Police Associations.  

 

The police officer involved in the situation with the young black army officer was fired today.  

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15 hours ago, Norm said:

I'm sure there are lots of lovely people in the States but as for the actual country and how it's run? It's the biggest arsehole on the planet.

 

Sure, there are worse places. But they're ***** and have surpassed arseholery. As far as just arseholes stand, the US is a clear leader. 

 

 

This. I'd love to visit the US and I'm sure I'd meet some fantastic people just like anywhere in the world. But this isn't about the ordinary people. It's just a truly messed up country from the very top.

 

A country who peddles the 'freedom of speech' narrative aggressively, yet detests anyone who doesn't pledge the allegiance or respect the national anthem. A mongrel nation who thinks they're pure and above all else in the World. They've caused shit all over the World, but if it ain't in their borders, then they don't care about it. 

 

And to think, many in this country wish we were the same.

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Dorothy
6 hours ago, Locky said:

This. I'd love to visit the US and I'm sure I'd meet some fantastic people just like anywhere in the world. But this isn't about the ordinary people. It's just a truly messed up country from the very top.

 

A country who peddles the 'freedom of speech' narrative aggressively, yet detests anyone who doesn't pledge the allegiance or respect the national anthem. A mongrel nation who thinks they're pure and above all else in the World. They've caused shit all over the World, but if it ain't in their borders, then they don't care about it. 

 

And to think, many in this country wish we were the same.

As an American I can vouch that there are wonderful, open minded, compassionate citizens, but we often have to be very quiet, especially depending on where we're from. 

 

I was raised in and currently reside in the Midwest, a section of the nation known for being particular patriotic(read as: nationalistic). I was raised to be God fearing, flag saluting, pledge giving, and obedient to the politicians who represent me, which really meant grow up to be a Republican and a conservative. I did not, much to the chagrin and disgust of certain family members and friends. The community I live in would probably throw a fit and I definitely would not have the job I currently do if I voiced my political or social opinions openly. I am not by far the only person like myself where I live, but I still feel isolated because it's just not safe to out yourself. Would there be social and professional repercussions? Without a doubt. Physical? Unclear, and the fact that I can't be certain is maddening. 

 

I guess my point is that there are many amazing, wonderful Americans, but we tend to keep our heads down out of fear of what could happen. When we do stand up and try to do something for change our media finds some way to taint it because they're all run by the richest of the rich who have a chokehold on this country and benefit from having all the poor people fight against each other instead of the true root of the problem.

 

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Sharpie
47 minutes ago, Dorothy said:

As an American I can vouch that there are wonderful, open minded, compassionate citizens, but we often have to be very quiet, especially depending on where we're from. 

 

I was raised in and currently reside in the Midwest, a section of the nation known for being particular patriotic(read as: nationalistic). I was raised to be God fearing, flag saluting, pledge giving, and obedient to the politicians who represent me, which really meant grow up to be a Republican and a conservative. I did not, much to the chagrin and disgust of certain family members and friends. The community I live in would probably throw a fit and I definitely would not have the job I currently do if I voiced my political or social opinions openly. I am not by far the only person like myself where I live, but I still feel isolated because it's just not safe to out yourself. Would there be social and professional repercussions? Without a doubt. Physical? Unclear, and the fact that I can't be certain is maddening. 

 

I guess my point is that there are many amazing, wonderful Americans, but we tend to keep our heads down out of fear of what could happen. When we do stand up and try to do something for change our media finds some way to taint it because they're all run by the richest of the rich who have a chokehold on this country and benefit from having all the poor people fight against each other instead of the true root of the problem.

 

  Especially true in these present times where some seem for some reason to believe physical sometimes lethal action against those with whom they disagree is correct and even permissible. The States have always been different, mainly because of the Gun Laws,  but the present is the absolute worst. It is totally unjust to the many many Americans including family born there who have to live in this violent atmosphere.

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AlimOzturk
On 12/04/2021 at 20:25, JackLadd said:

If you don't comply exactly the way these cops want they go into robocop mode which escalates from there. It's not rocket science to follow their instructions. 


Even when you comply your still at risk of police brutality. 

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Francis Albert

I first visited America 40 years ago when we  did an epic drive from Boston to Miami via New Orleans  and Key West  staying mostly cheap hotels and rather dodgy motels. Have been there most years since. Encountered a cop or two on the road who were professional and polite. Comparing US cops who know that there is a fair chance everyone they encounter is armed with UK cops where the odds are still very much against that is unfair. 

 

 

 

 

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Francis Albert
On 12/04/2021 at 19:01, Jamie Walker Tash said:

The biggest arse hole country on the planet. 

Lets not be silly.

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Sharpie
3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I first visited America 40 years ago when we  did an epic drive from Boston to Miami via New Orleans  and Key West  staying mostly cheap hotels and rather dodgy motels. Have been there most years since. Encountered a cop or two on the road who were professional and polite. Comparing US cops who know that there is a fair chance everyone they encounter is armed with UK cops where the odds are still very much against that is unfair. 

 

 

 

 

 You are quite correct there is always risk for the cop on the highway far from population, but they are taught how to maintain the advantage by giving directions that must be followed the most basic keep your hands on the wheel, if you watch a State Trooper approach a car from behind they are very careful to give the least possible view of their approach. I just because of all the TV coverage saw where a cop was killed, he had approached and was at the passenger side of the car , the driver a big man got out and you could see on the cops car dash cam he had an automatic weapon in his hand, he just leaned the weapon on the cop and with a blast killed him. This was in New Mexico another area with large expanses of nothing, why the cop put himself in the position he did I could never understand. It was actually on Hannitys Fox News show, and he was using the brutal action as far as I could see for police being quick to act. Although in my time in Canada especially on night shift vehicle checks were for me a case of special caution I guess the secret is too much care is better than the alternative result of carelessness. 

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3 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 You are quite correct there is always risk for the cop on the highway far from population, but they are taught how to maintain the advantage by giving directions that must be followed the most basic keep your hands on the wheel, if you watch a State Trooper approach a car from behind they are very careful to give the least possible view of their approach. I just because of all the TV coverage saw where a cop was killed, he had approached and was at the passenger side of the car , the driver a big man got out and you could see on the cops car dash cam he had an automatic weapon in his hand, he just leaned the weapon on the cop and with a blast killed him. This was in New Mexico another area with large expanses of nothing, why the cop put himself in the position he did I could never understand. It was actually on Hannitys Fox News show, and he was using the brutal action as far as I could see for police being quick to act. Although in my time in Canada especially on night shift vehicle checks were for me a case of special caution I guess the secret is too much care is better than the alternative result of carelessness. 

I’ve mentioned it on here before that I got stopped at nighttime by the Highway Patrol in LA. I’ve always seen in films they often seem to have their torch/flashlight on as they do this. On this occasion I found out why, powerful torch shone into drivers door mirror so when I checked to see where he was I was dazzled before he got to the door. Torch in one hand and the other resting on his pistol until he’d told me to get my hands on the steering wheel by which point his partner was on the scene and he put the torch away. 

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Francis Albert
10 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 You are quite correct there is always risk for the cop on the highway far from population, but they are taught how to maintain the advantage by giving directions that must be followed the most basic keep your hands on the wheel, if you watch a State Trooper approach a car from behind they are very careful to give the least possible view of their approach. I just because of all the TV coverage saw where a cop was killed, he had approached and was at the passenger side of the car , the driver a big man got out and you could see on the cops car dash cam he had an automatic weapon in his hand, he just leaned the weapon on the cop and with a blast killed him. This was in New Mexico another area with large expanses of nothing, why the cop put himself in the position he did I could never understand. It was actually on Hannitys Fox News show, and he was using the brutal action as far as I could see for police being quick to act. Although in my time in Canada especially on night shift vehicle checks were for me a case of special caution I guess the secret is too much care is better than the alternative result of carelessness. 

But in the States a cop's carelessness is far more likely to.prove fatal than in the a UK or most other countries.

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Sharpie

So the Chief of Police has resigned, the woman who fired the shot has resigned, and the prosecutors are still considering if any charges should be laid. There was some suggestion yesterday that this was not this woman's first  escapade, but I guess they have stopped saying anything in case it jeopardises any legal actions, by quoting her record. I hear tonight for the first time that the young man is presently involved in legal actions for firearms offences.  Still lots of interesting information to come out.

 

I also learned that it is usually mandated by force policy that the Taser and the firearm be on different sides of the belt,  to avoid the subject type of error. Hannity tonight has just stated that there have been a hundred police killings this year. Seems high twenty a month , unless he means in the last twelve months.

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Section N Rules
8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Lets not be silly.

Im not. Can't stand them.

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jambo89

Did a yank Sh*g yer bursd or something? Is that the real reason Justin Z had to leave? A bounty on his head? 

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Seymour M Hersh

It would appear there have been at least 18 other cases of "Taser confusion" in the past. Police are trained to use their dominant hand for their side arm and holster it on that side of the body. Tasers are holstered on the other side to reduce confusion. 

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muldoon74

Comparison between commonly used firearm and tazer in US Police Forces. 

 

Officer supposedly aiming at victim for some time. Why was colour and weight difference not noticed? 

 

IMO, and I acknowledge I'm no law, enforcement expert, US police are trained to go for weapon as a first resort, not a last. I see this as a direct result of the gun culture spiralling out of control. Open carry? Yes, very clever idea. If you are allowing your citizens to carry an AR15 into McDonald's you're putting law enforcement on edge, under very unnecessary stress and fear to start with. 

Screenshot_20210414_133047_com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox.jpg

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muldoon74
Just now, muldoon74 said:

Comparison between commonly used firearm and tazer in US Police Forces. 

 

Officer supposedly aiming at victim for some time. Why was colour and weight difference not noticed? 

 

IMO, and I acknowledge I'm no law, enforcement expert, US police are trained to go for weapon as a first resort, not a last. I see this as a direct result of the gun culture spiralling out of control. Open carry? Yes, very clever idea. If you are allowing your citizens to carry an AR15 into McDonald's you're putting law enforcement on edge, under very unnecessary stress and fear to start with. 

Screenshot_20210414_133047_com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox.jpg

This is a screen shot, full article is in NY times.. 

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Sharpie
1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

It would appear there have been at least 18 other cases of "Taser confusion" in the past. Police are trained to use their dominant hand for their side arm and holster it on that side of the body. Tasers are holstered on the other side to reduce confusion. 

 

It must be really confidence inspiring to know when you are working with a partner who cannot tell  the right side of their belt from the left or vice versa. For the officer drawing the weapon you must be really inept if you cannot tell that you have in your hand a reasonably heavy metal object loaded with heavy ammunition or a plastic weapon sometimes with a bright yellow coloring. I have commented before but still actually look in awe at the amount of equipment they now carry on their belts, spare ammunition, a radio, a gun, a taser, an expandable baton, camera, handcuffs, firearm, sometimes keys for call boxes etc.and spares for car.In the film I have seen the female officer has her arm fully extended, she almost looks like she is in the aim position which makes sense as they probably have preferred locations to Taser, you would think looking down the sights that something would have signalled to a long service officer that something was not quite right.

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highlandjambo3
3 hours ago, muldoon74 said:

Comparison between commonly used firearm and tazer in US Police Forces. 

 

Officer supposedly aiming at victim for some time. Why was colour and weight difference not noticed? 

 

IMO, and I acknowledge I'm no law, enforcement expert, US police are trained to go for weapon as a first resort, not a last. I see this as a direct result of the gun culture spiralling out of control. Open carry? Yes, very clever idea. If you are allowing your citizens to carry an AR15 into McDonald's you're putting law enforcement on edge, under very unnecessary stress and fear to start with. 

Screenshot_20210414_133047_com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox.jpg

Glock 17.........rated as the (current) best pistol in the world.

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Seymour M Hersh
4 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 

It must be really confidence inspiring to know when you are working with a partner who cannot tell  the right side of their belt from the left or vice versa. For the officer drawing the weapon you must be really inept if you cannot tell that you have in your hand a reasonably heavy metal object loaded with heavy ammunition or a plastic weapon sometimes with a bright yellow coloring. I have commented before but still actually look in awe at the amount of equipment they now carry on their belts, spare ammunition, a radio, a gun, a taser, an expandable baton, camera, handcuffs, firearm, sometimes keys for call boxes etc.and spares for car.In the film I have seen the female officer has her arm fully extended, she almost looks like she is in the aim position which makes sense as they probably have preferred locations to Taser, you would think looking down the sights that something would have signalled to a long service officer that something was not quite right.

 

Easy to be armchair quarterbacks I suppose but the fact that she fired once all seems to indicate that, in the heat of the moment, she thought she was holding the Taser as police are trained to fire multiple shots with side arms but Tazers are one and done bits of kit. 

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Dorothy
30 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Easy to be armchair quarterbacks I suppose but the fact that she fired once all seems to indicate that, in the heat of the moment, she thought she was holding the Taser as police are trained to fire multiple shots with side arms but Tazers are one and done bits of kit. 

Even so, a doctor in the heat of the moment administers the wrong drug and a patient dies, they still are liable. If US police are given the right to carry and use guns, they must carry the risk of repercussions of misuse or mistakes as well.

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This genuinely seems to be a tragic accident as a result of an officer panicking. But as Dorothy says there must be a liability attached to it but I don’t believe it to be malicious. 

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Sharpie
22 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Easy to be armchair quarterbacks I suppose but the fact that she fired once all seems to indicate that, in the heat of the moment, she thought she was holding the Taser as police are trained to fire multiple shots with side arms but Tazers are one and done bits of kit. 

 

I do not intend to quarterback anyone, I did however although in the past serve thirty six years of my life  in the police from recruit to Detachment Commander. I received training in firearms, in those days we were advised to double tap. I take it now you are suggesting that they use multiple rounds, even at one of the United States top training institution I do not recall in firearms training to fire multiple shots.  You also comment that "she thought" she was holding her Taser, excuse me if I am rabbiting and talking nonsense, but If she "thought"she was holding her Taser  she is condemned right there, you shouldn't be thinking about anything with training and experience and general practise of equipment being in the same place at all times and the two in particular normally well spaced to avoid error, you have to know what you are doing it should be second nature. In my humble opinion with some experience in the profession both as an armed and unarmed officer, I knew the importance as did those around of total concentration on the job at hand. This young lady failed, she has to unfortunately suffer serious consequences officially as I am sure she must be doing personally.

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Seymour M Hersh
11 minutes ago, Dorothy said:

Even so, a doctor in the heat of the moment administers the wrong drug and a patient dies, they still are liable. If US police are given the right to carry and use guns, they must carry the risk of repercussions of misuse or mistakes as well.

 

I'm not disputing she appears culpable for a moment. 

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