Would you consider private ownership again.........?

[Saint Jambo]

People talking about 'investors' as if there is money to be made in Scottish football outside the Old Firm are out of touch with reality.

 

I've contributed thousands to FoH on the grounds that 'never again' would the very existence of Hearts be put at risk by being put in the hands of a private owner. Delighted that the 90% supermajority was maintained to approve the sale of the club.

[Saint Jambo]

22 minutes ago, jambonian said:

Which is why we need that extra. To buy better players, to compete, to encourage more fans, sponsorship, tv money and any other income we can, possibly a Euro run etc. I'm not saying go out and spend, spend, spend. That really would be foolish, however, one or two good quality signings a season with potential to sell on for big money later on will give any potential investor the encouragement to put money into the club. Let's say we look to sign a player from another club for around....i don't know, throw any figure out there... £400k for example. Potential sell-on in the future could bring the club a £2/3 million (at least) transfer then the investor/s get their money back in spades. Sign the best quality youngsters (as well as producing one or two of our own) and sell for profit. We won't spend that sort of cash as things stand at the moment, we're too busy wasting any cash on Kastaneers and Frears. Even bringing in a freebie like Jimmy Dunne for example could potentially get the club a few million quid back in future. We'd still be shelling out less than we could make back. It can be done without having to get into uncontrollable debt with the right investor/s in place. And we might even make a pot of money in Europe, a pipe-dream as the club is as it stands right now.

 

You've just outlined the model that came close to bankrupting the club following the SMG investment and put the club into administration under Romanov. Making money from a football team in Scotland is not as easy as you seem to think. Despite various rich individuals coming into Scottish football, no one has achieved what you have described with a club outside the old firm.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Definitely with the right levels of mega wealth and trustworthiness.

[MCW1976]

No thank you.

 

People with very short memories, on here.

 

FoH are custodians of club. Magnificent, IMO.

 

Doesn't mean we won't get investment from elsewhere, or never attract something special. We're just there to act as gatekeeper for our beloved club.

 

What's not to like!

[Rocky jamboa]

Not for me. The club being in fan ownership should mean we're never in the hands of some charlatan looking to make a fast buck and the club is always in safe hands. 

 

We don't ever need to worry about tynecastle being razed to the ground for a new Tesco and moving to some soleless dome in the middle of nowhere.  

 

It makes sense for those who truly love the club to be in control of it's destiny. 

[JJ93]

7 minutes ago, Paulp74 said:

Not for me. The club being in fan ownership should mean we're never in the hands of some charlatan looking to make a fast buck and the club is always in safe hands. 

 

We don't ever need to worry about tynecastle being razed to the ground for a new Tesco and moving to some soleless dome in the middle of nowhere.  

 

It makes sense for those who truly love the club to be in control of it's destiny. 

What if that destiny is finishing 3rd at best for all of eternity because we lack the funds to compete at the top?

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, JJ93 said:

What if that destiny is finishing 3rd at best for all of eternity because we lack the funds to compete at the top?

If the ‘expected’ euro leagues come into effect then clubs that want to move there might need a minimum capital investment to join. 

[Rocky jamboa]

27 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

What if that destiny is finishing 3rd at best for all of eternity because we lack the funds to compete at the top?

Apart from 1 season in the last 30 and probably 2 in the last 60, that's all we've had anyway. A club our size with our fan base and income should be challenging for 3rd every season as a minimum, regardless of who owns us. 

[JackLadd]

What's aff the dar sqillionaire Craig Whyte up to these days?

[oi oi]

1 hour ago, jambonian said:

Which is why we need that extra. To buy better players, to compete, to encourage more fans, sponsorship, tv money and any other income we can, possibly a Euro run etc. I'm not saying go out and spend, spend, spend. That really would be foolish, however, one or two good quality signings a season with potential to sell on for big money later on will give any potential investor the encouragement to put money into the club. Let's say we look to sign a player from another club for around....i don't know, throw any figure out there... £400k for example. Potential sell-on in the future could bring the club a £2/3 million (at least) transfer then the investor/s get their money back in spades. Sign the best quality youngsters (as well as producing one or two of our own) and sell for profit. We won't spend that sort of cash as things stand at the moment, we're too busy wasting any cash on Kastaneers and Frears. Even bringing in a freebie like Jimmy Dunne for example could potentially get the club a few million quid back in future. We'd still be shelling out less than we could make back. It can be done without having to get into uncontrollable debt with the right investor/s in place. And we might even make a pot of money in Europe, a pipe-dream as the club is as it stands right now.

3rd party ownership of players (which this effectively is) is prohibited by FIFA.

[gashauskis9]

2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

 

Reality is, when Budge pushes off and the FOH owns, this is our investment. No one else to be held accountable, the money generated would be all we have, additional to our other incomes of course. Worries me quite a lot actually. Budge over, but what if Anderson follows her out and there is no investment? In the understandable rage over performance, a lot of which I agree and some I don't we will always need the help of investors to be really competitive

I think it’s more likely that Anderson will become more involved once the club is fan owned.  It aligns with his values and beliefs around corporate responsibility.  

[Rocky jamboa]

2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

 

Reality is, when Budge pushes off and the FOH owns, this is our investment. No one else to be held accountable, the money generated would be all we have, additional to our other incomes of course. Worries me quite a lot actually. Budge over, but what if Anderson follows her out and there is no investment? In the understandable rage over performance, a lot of which I agree and some I don't we will always need the help of investors to be really competitive

We've had "the help of investors" for the past 5 or 6 seasons and its arguably the worst period in our history and we're currently in the championship! 

[Section Q]

5 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Needs a 90% majority among voting FoH members so very hard to deliver. 

Thought we amended it to 70%....

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Section Q said:

Thought we amended it to 70%....

That resolution wasn’t passed. 

[Section Q]

13 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That resolution wasn’t passed. 

👍

[davemclaren]

Just now, Section Q said:

👍

I think it got 60 odd percent so short of the 70% required iirc. 

[Rods]

We have had our fair share of troubles with owners.

 

Time to see what fan ownership brings. People just have to realise its not Champo manager and understand what fans ownership means( inspite of it being spelt out by the FOH on several occasions)

[stirlo]

Fan ownership is not perfect but it's the best solution IMO as at least you know the club is in the hands of people that have the best interests of the club at heart. I never want the club to be at the whim of one person again.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Bring it on

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, JJ93 said:

What if that destiny is finishing 3rd at best for all of eternity because we lack the funds to compete at the top?

Then our destiny is finishing 3rd at best because we lack the funds to compete at the top.

 

I don't ever want Heart of Midlothian to be in existential danger again. This is why I've been so vocal about the stand and costs over these years, and also why I say a massive No to spending beyond our means. Debt is something that has to be paid back. It costs money to service debt and it all adds up to robbing tomorrow to pay today. We nearly died under Romanov, never again.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

FFS we didn’t come this far to hand it back to some egotistical *******! The FOH are yelle belly’s for sure,  but we haven’t even had a day of fan owned yet. 

[jock _turd]

5 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Aye, she's got her "cake & eat it" football club. Paid for by the fans, bailed out by her buddy. All at zero cost to her. 

 

She is lovely, so cuddly and nice just like yer mum... lets get a kitty together and send her a nice big box of chocolates and a huge bunch of red roses to show her how well she is doing getting our team performing at the level they are!

[NANOJAMBO]

3 minutes ago, jock _turd said:

 

She is lovely, so cuddly and nice just like yer mum... lets get a kitty together and send her a nice big box of chocolates and a huge bunch of red roses to show her how well she is doing getting our team performing at the level they are!

You never met my mum 😄

[Pingu]

4 hours ago, jambonian said:

 

Problem with that is you are relying on contributions forever more and if things aren't going well on the pitch then contributions will slowly but surely decrease as the years/decades go on. And you will never encourage new contributors if all's not well. Why would they want to bother? We should never have to rely on just FoH contributions, it could be a disaster long-term. Don't get me wrong, it's been a fantastic achievement and yes, something we should be rightly proud of, however, peoples' (contributors) lives change. There are many reasons why contributions could decrease, it's life. Death, unemployment, moving away, marriage, starting a family, affordability to pay mortgage/rent, retirement and many other reasons. That's why i would go down the route of a 50-50 split ownership with some money-men and FoH contributors. If money is invested in quality players, people will be interested in watching HMFC, new fans for the future etc. New season ticket holders and FoH contributors. If we struggle on like we have, interest will wain, fans won't want to go and watch HMFC and low season ticket sales will decrease player budget and we'll be stuck signing no-hopers, has-beens and never-will-be's for years to come. That won't get us into Europe or challenging at the top. That's why we need external funds to help FoH run the club in the proper manner. For me, that's the way to go to a successful Hearts.

 

Yeah, all fair points. Basically, we'd need to be confident we had enough pledgers to ride out a bit of a drop.

 

But... as we've seen in the past, a private owner can be even more unreliable, and if we are dependent on a small number of people for a serious chunk of funding that could also be very risky. 

[Jambo-Fox]

Depends on your ambitions (and hopes) for Hearts!

 

If you are happy to standstill and watch other clubs grow to be bigger than Hearts then the FOH fan owned model is correct

but

If you want Hearts to grow and reach their full potential (and perform consistently beyond what they have historically done) then an alternative model will be a requirement, one which has the ability to raise significant funds & capital beyond what is currently achievable.

 

♥️♥️♥️♥️

[i8hibsh]

Anything but Budge.

[graygo]

Ideal scenario -

 

We win this shitty league and get promoted.

Ann Budge stays on.

Roberto Neilsonio stays on.

7,990 FOH contributers cancel their subs.

9 of the remaining 10 of us agree to sell the club to James Anderson for squillions of pounds and retire to the Bahamas with the proceeds.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Awbdy Oot

[1971fozzy]

We have an owner at the moment. We have FOH ploughing in millions as well as a benefactor(s) ploughing in millions.

yet look where we are and what garbage we are watching, managed by a dinosaur who has no clue and a Levein type blindness. Ann Budge has managed to make an absolute feking almighty mess of it all (being very kind there) and so no. 

[Rocky jamboa]

1 minute ago, 1971fozzy said:

We have an owner at the moment. We have FOH ploughing in millions as well as a benefactor(s) ploughing in millions.

yet look where we are and what garbage we are watching, managed by a dinosaur who has no clue and a Levein type blindness. Ann Budge has managed to make an absolute feking almighty mess of it all (being very kind there) and so no. 

Spot on 👍 fan ownership can't be any worse than this. 

 

For every man c owner, there's 10 other unscrupulous owners. Just ask Sunderland, Portsmouth, Blackburn and Newcastle fans for starters. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

7 hours ago, Section Q said:

Depending on circumstances, and possible dissatisfaction of the running of the club, would you be in favour of Hearts reverting to private ownership...?

Anyone

Never

[pettigrewsstylist]

4 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

People talking about 'investors' as if there is money to be made in Scottish football outside the Old Firm are out of touch with reality.

 

I've contributed thousands to FoH on the grounds that 'never again' would the very existence of Hearts be put at risk by being put in the hands of a private owner. Delighted that the 90% supermajority was maintained to approve the sale of the club.

Im with this guy. 

[pettigrewsstylist]

1 hour ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

FFS we didn’t come this far to hand it back to some egotistical *******! The FOH are yelle belly’s for sure,  but we haven’t even had a day of fan owned yet. 

This is why i voted 90%. Nutters.

[jbee647]

30 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Depends on your ambitions (and hopes) for Hearts!

 

If you are happy to standstill and watch other clubs grow to be bigger than Hearts then the FOH fan owned model is correct

but

If you want Hearts to grow and reach their full potential (and perform consistently beyond what they have historically done) then an alternative model will be a requirement, one which has the ability to raise significant funds & capital beyond what is currently achievable.

 

♥️♥️♥️♥️

Is the correct answer

FOH was a fantastic movement at that moment in time, long term the club could possibly stagnate and will fall behind clubs owned by richer owners or consortiums like Cormack at Aberdeen, the club needs to grow if it is to succeed, being 

fan owned IMHO will result in us standing still long term

[Borders Jambo]

5 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

Is the correct answer

FOH was a fantastic movement at that moment in time, long term the club could possibly stagnate and will fall behind clubs owned by richer owners or consortiums like Cormack at Aberdeen, the club needs to grow if it is to succeed, being 

fan owned IMHO will result in us standing still long term

No.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

Is the correct answer

FOH was a fantastic movement at that moment in time, long term the club could possibly stagnate and will fall behind clubs owned by richer owners or consortiums like Cormack at Aberdeen, the club needs to grow if it is to succeed, being 

fan owned IMHO will result in us standing still long term

 

The club needs to exist first and foremost. I will always argue against taking on debt to meet short term ambition and against being owned by an individual, there's too much risk and I want future generations to have a club.

 

People need to get used to the idea that we're not going to be taken over because there will always be at least 10% who won't have it. I can't imagine how someone could convince me to vote otherwise to be honest.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Smithee

[jbee647]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The club needs to exist first and foremost. I will always argue against taking on debt to meet short term ambition and against being owned by an individual, there too much risk and I want future generations to have a club.

 

People need to get used to the idea that we're not going to be taken over because there will always be at least 10% who won't have it. I can't imagine how someone could convince me to vote otherwise to be honest.

There is a chance Scotland’s third biggest club could be her fourth fifth or sixth if long term there is a lack of investment,

we only have to go back to the period of the late sixties through the seventies where a lack of leadership and investment meant we were nowhere near the top 5 clubs in Scotland, performance wise not even top 10

Edited April 8, 2021 by jbee647

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jbee647 said:

There is a chance Scotland’s third biggest club could be her fourth fifth or sixth if long term there is a lack of investment,

we only have to go back to the period of the late sixties through the seventies where a lack of leadership and investment meant we were nowhere near the top 5 clubs in Scotland, performance wise not even top 10

Investment isn't free money

[jbee647]

Just now, Smithee said:

Investment isn't free money

Totally agree, but I think and obviously many others obviously agree that we may at some point need an alternative or back up plan to FOH

[Unknown user]

Just now, jbee647 said:

Totally agree, but I think and obviously many others obviously agree that we may at some point need an alternative or back up plan to FOH

Yeah, investment. And investment means paying it back, plus interest.

 

No ta, and good luck convincing 90%

[Jambo-Fox]

37 minutes ago, Paulp74 said:

Spot on 👍 fan ownership can't be any worse than this. 

 

For every man c owner, there's 10 other unscrupulous owners. Just ask Sunderland, Portsmouth, Blackburn and Newcastle fans for starters. 

Yes you are correct with all these clubs having unscrupulous owners over the years.

 

Portsmouth is an interesting one, the Pompey Supporters Trust (their equivalent of the FOH) gained ownership of the club for a few years. But, then sold there majority share holding to an investment company.

Don’t know the answer to this. Are Pompey fans currently unhappy (ignoring that they are hanging on to a play off spot in league 1) with how they are now owned?

[Jodami]

At least there is an honesty about private ownership. If you are going to consistently get it wrong on the park, oversee basic mistakes on a stand build, waste a fortune on facilities that aren't really required, lecture to the rest of the industry while you habitually fail, make decisions you are not qualified to make, regularly issue sanctimonious edicts, treat your fans with contempt and appoint family members to jobs like the Mafia then if you actually owned the club and it was 100% your money it would be kind of okay.

[jbee647]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yeah, investment. And investment means paying it back, plus interest.

 

No ta, and good luck convincing 90%

If results are poor and they see the club’s results and league standings deteriorate long term you might find it surprising how quickly you can convince 90%

[Jambo-Fox]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The club needs to exist first and foremost. I will always argue against taking on debt to meet short term ambition and against being owned by an individual, there's too much risk and I want future generations to have a club.

 

People need to get used to the idea that we're not going to be taken over because there will always be at least 10% who won't have it. I can't imagine how someone could convince me to vote otherwise to be honest.

Can’t disagree with any points you make. Any investment must be long term.

 

Queens Park are interesting, perpetual amateurs, playing at low levels, never expected to progress higher. All associated with QP happy with their high standards and integrity. Well respected club by all in football. 
 

Them shock, they turn professional, something that was a surprise for most football folk.

 

Are those associated with QP happy about such a huge change?

 

Never say never ....

 

♥️♥️♥️♥️

[SkabalaJam]

No money to be made in Scottish Football why would any business want to invest? For egotistical reasons that why. Had Hearts not being going down the route of fan ownership, would James Anderson have 'donated' his millions? His reasons were not egotistical, he did not want to be named although it eventually came out. What's wrong with trying to tap into other similar like minded inviduals.... Stick to a strategy, don't change just for change sake. 

[Rocky jamboa]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Yes you are correct with all these clubs having unscrupulous owners over the years.

 

Portsmouth is an interesting one, the Pompey Supporters Trust (their equivalent of the FOH) gained ownership of the club for a few years. But, then sold there majority share holding to an investment company.

Don’t know the answer to this. Are Pompey fans currently unhappy (ignoring that they are hanging on to a play off spot in league 1) with how they are now owned?

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Just read up on it and notice they went into administration after their Russian banker owner's company went into administration. Sound familiar?! 😁 the fans then bought them out of administration. 

 

Exactly the type of owner we can avoid by being fan owned. 

[davemclaren]

9 minutes ago, SkabalaJam said:

No money to be made in Scottish Football why would any business want to invest? For egotistical reasons that why. Had Hearts not being going down the route of fan ownership, would James Anderson have 'donated' his millions? His reasons were not egotistical, he did not want to be named although it eventually came out. What's wrong with trying to tap into other similar like minded inviduals.... Stick to a strategy, don't change just for change sake. 

I don’t think anyone is saying change it now when we are on the cusp of fan ownership. However fan ownership will likely bring its own problems as well as opportunities. I doubt anything will change in my lifetime but situations and the footballing environment do change and we should always be open to that. 

[graygo]

How does it work IF the supporters do decide to sell the club? Let's say it sells for £2.5m, does that money get split among the current membership at the time? It obviously couldn't go back into the club as that would mean the new owners get the club for nothing.

[Jambo-Fox]

39 minutes ago, Awbdy Oot said:

How does it work IF the supporters do decide to sell the club? Let's say it sells for £2.5m, does that money get split among the current membership at the time? It obviously couldn't go back into the club as that would mean the new owners get the club for nothing.

Membership don’t get a penny! All covered in the Articles - however what Hearts would get in the above scenario is a donation of £2.5m from the FOH, which would be used as working capital.

 

But I take your point, ie purchaser gives FOH £2.5m which the FOH give to Hearts who in turn give it to the purchaser!

It’s an interesting point and one where the risks would have to be mitigated against if the scenario came to fruition.

Might be learnings from the Pompey Trust sale of their fan owned club!

[Jambo-Fox]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

Membership don’t get a penny! All covered in the Articles - however what Hearts would get in the above scenario is a donation of £2.5m from the FOH, which would be used as working capital.

 

But I take your point, ie purchaser gives FOH £2.5m which the FOH give to Hearts who in turn give it to the purchaser!

It’s an interesting point and one where the risks would have to be mitigated against if the scenario came to fruition.

Might be learnings from the Pompey Trust sale of their fan owned club!

Pompey sale completed
By PST Board

Added on 03 August 2017

 

The PST Board is pleased to announce that the takeover of Pompey has now completed. The PST Board, together with representatives from the Presidents, the Club and Tornante have worked diligently over the last 2 months to come to a final agreement that is in accordance with the Terms Sheet presented to members and to provide the Heritage and Advisory Board with the best foundation for a successful future.

We can confirm the following details of the sale:

• Pompey is now a subsidiary of Portsmouth FC LLC, a US company which is owned by Tornante

• The PST received £1000 per share in payment

• The Presidents either received £1000 per share or took the option of a contingent payment as outlined in the Term Sheet, or a combination thereof

• £10m has been placed under the control of the football club, this takes the form of equity

• The Club has issued a single Heritage Share to a new company Pompey Heritage Share Co Ltd, which carries the veto rights over name, colours and stadium location as outlined in the Term Sheet. This company has subsequently become a subsidiary of the Club.

• The directors of Pompey Heritage Share Co Ltd form the Heritage and Advisory Board, and this will consist of 3 representatives from the PST Board, 3 Presidents, 2 Club Executives and 2 Tornante Executives.

• PST representatives will serve a one year term and can be reappointed each subsequent year.

• The Presidents representatives will serve 3 year terms by rotation with a 2 year hiatus before being able to be reappointed.

• The Heritage and Advisory Board will provide recommendations on the following areas

  • ticket pricing (including season ticket, membership and individual ticket prices);

  • the appropriateness of sponsors of the Club;

  • the on-field performance of the Club;

  • any plans for the development of Fratton Park or any future stadium of the Club;

  • appropriate match-day privileges for Presidents and the members of the PST;

  • any proposed material change or redesign of the crest of the Club; and

  • the manner in which broader engagement with all the stakeholders of the Club is conducted;

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Yeah, investment. And investment means paying it back, plus interest.

 

No ta, and good luck convincing 90%

Paying back with interest? A bit like with Ann? Not to the mention the rest of the £12m the fans have paid without getting what they "invested" in.