How biased are Scottish referees.........?

[Section Q]

John Hughes says Brian Rice was right to call out referees for old firm favouritism. If it's that blatant though, it might be time for foreign referees. I always thought if we were in an Atlantic type league we'd at least have neutral refs........................Anyone........?

 

 

"""Hughes: Half the refs support Old Firm"""

"""Ross County boss John Hughes has backed up his old friend Brian Rice, manager of Hamilton Accies, after his outburst against referees, claiming that at least half of officials in Scotland are Celtic and Rangers fans who don’t care about the smaller clubs."""

Edited April 7, 2021 by Section Q

[Mikey1874]

Well he played for Celtic. Did he think he got decisions then? That's where he should start, not as a paranoid manager probably getting his last 2 or 3 jobs before better candidates. 

 

Its true there are issues with refereeing. They could do with VAR and things like the west coast bias need looked at.

[SuperstarSteve]

Bias is an understatement.
 

Clear out at the very top is required for any sort of change. 

[Sherbet]

Years ago a hibs supporting acquaintance of told me he had been at a fans do after Bertie auld signed for hibs. Auld was asked what he thought the biggest difference between playing for hibs and celtic. His reply   the referees

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

A big part of the problem, just like teams knowing one another, so do the referees. 

 

Familiarity breeds contempt 

[lost in space]

It doesn't help that most of the refs are from the west (unless recently changed).

 

Let's face it, if you lived in the west you knew that if you made a bad decision against an old firm team, your wife would be verbally abused and kids bullied at school.

[Kirky Jambo]

I don’t know about bias but the standard is woeful and stems from the rotten attitude. I was randomly invited to an end of season event in 2016 where Willie Collum gave a speech and it was all about “media witch hunts” and how they were doing a great job and should ignore any criticism. I was struck by the general arrogance of everyone there. I remember sitting next to David Tanner who was getting more and more annoyed.

 

Contrast with England where on MOTD etc the refs get an absolute doing when they mess up. Sutherland etc barely ever go further than saying they think a decision was wrong, and usually only when it’s plain to see. Like when they did the “red card; green card” for the Andy Davis penalty. It’s embarrassing how little scrutiny and transparency there is and sadly nothing will change until there is a complete change in attitude top to bottom, within the game and within the media.

[OTT]

Of course they are. Every FIFA grade referee (the top ones in Scotland that do Europe) are from Glasgow, or the wee towns just outside Glasgow. 

 

They live there. Even if we put aside the high probability the are OF fans, how can they walk around their local area if they've 'cost' their team points? We're talking about conscious and sub conscious bias. Conscious is Davisgate, sub-conscious is them giving the OF penalties and it being mission impossible to get one against them. Have Rangers actually even conceded one penalty this season? Don't tell me its because they're defenders are so good either, probability suggests they should have conceded a few. 

 

There clearly is a bias at senior level to promoting refs outside of Glasgow up. Craig Levein's stat about how few non-Glasgow refs have refereed a Scottish cup final speaks volumes about the ingrained culture there. 

 

I think moving the Refs HQ out of Glasgow (hell the SFA too) to say a more neutral city like Dundee would be good to see. It would mean all the support staff wouldn't be OF fans which must contribute to the culture. Even if it is just a wee joke here and there. 

[TexasAndy]

I am willing to use the word influenced instead of biased.   They are definitely influenced when refereeing the OF.  

[Locky]

This is why I'm for VAR in a country like Scotland. Or, if it's more cost effective, just fly refs over from the continent to ref games involving the Old Firm. They do that in Greece, whose footballing landscape is startlingly similar to Scotland. All the Greek FA headquarters are in Athens, and the Athens clubs, particularly Olympiakos, get everything going there way. Anytime Olympiakos are shat upon by a ref, their ultras petrol bomb their houses. It's mental.

 

Funny enough, the time we had foreign refs over for a weekend when ours went on strike, Celtic dropped points at home to Caley Thistle. Probably coincidence, but how many times have we seen Celtic or Rangers struggling to overcome a lesser team at home, only to get a contentious penalty, or a questionable amount of injury time which leads to a winner?

[Jamhammer]

27 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Well he played for Celtic. Did he think he got decisions then? That's where he should start, not as a paranoid manager probably getting his last 2 or 3 jobs before better candidates. 

 

Its true there are issues with refereeing. They could do with VAR and things like the west coast bias need looked at.

Thing is with VAR it’s other refs who do it. Collum gives a decision to Rangers. Over to VAR. Bobby Madden says “stonewaller”

[Riccarton3]

They are part of the system. To expect them not to fall into bed with the sham we witness is not realistic. 

[Locky]

2 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

I am willing to use the word influenced instead of biased.   They are definitely influenced when refereeing the OF.  

Can't remember which ref it was, but I recall one having a column in a paper after he retired, and he openly admitted that if you're reffing at Parkhead or Ibrox, you tend to favour the home team as it's such a hostile environment, and you're not sure what could happen if you upset them.

 

Surprised more wasn't made of that tbh. Tynecastle can be just as hostile with a poor refereeing performance. Remember Bobby Madden having to get a police escort off the park against Hamilton a few seasons ago.

[Hectormasson]

11 minutes ago, everton_jambo said:

I don’t know about bias but the standard is woeful and stems from the rotten attitude. I was randomly invited to an end of season event in 2016 where Willie Collum gave a speech and it was all about “media witch hunts” and how they were doing a great job and should ignore any criticism. I was struck by the general arrogance of everyone there. I remember sitting next to David Tanner who was getting more and more annoyed.

 

Contrast with England where on MOTD etc the refs get an absolute doing when they mess up. Sutherland etc barely ever go further than saying they think a decision was wrong, and usually only when it’s plain to see. Like when they did the “red card; green card” for the Andy Davis penalty. It’s embarrassing how little scrutiny and transparency there is and sadly nothing will change until there is a complete change in attitude top to bottom, within the game and within the media.

That was so blatant it was incredible that penalty decision against hearts that night, when it was clear to everyone watching , it was kyrgiakos that fouled Lee Miller if anything, its been going on for decades!

[Riccarton3]

I think Hughes said a while back, why does my team get all the new refs who have to GRADUATE to a game involving Celtic and rangers in a !League where all teams are supposedly equal.

 

Refs play their role in the farce. The perks, the prestige, the money may  is enough to let some things slide. There's always next week, remember. Another big profile game cos I've no ****ed up either of them with the 'wrang' decision

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Riccarton3

[martoon]

Always enjoy the contrast when Celtic and Rangers play in Europe.

 

The disbelief and incredulity when they don't get penalties for merely falling down in the box or when players are rightly sent packing for brutal tackles makes watching worthwhile.

 

That would happen weekly if they joined some daft Atlantic League.

 

Mentioned the bias to a few OF fans over the years and they're astonished. No surprise. They think a McCoist, Laudrup, Larsson etc. twisting their body shape to drag a leg over a sprawled 'keeper is a penalty.

 

"Contact, he's entitled to go down..."

 

I never laugh at others being cheated, even Hibs, as I know that the next time we play the OF it will happen to us.

 

Add in Budge/Neilson's Hearts, Covid 19...I'm finding myself at a tipping point, football wise.

 

Sad times.

Edited April 7, 2021 by martoon

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The problem is that they are scared of taking big decisions against the old firm. I don’t know if this is down to bias or basic fear but as a single example, look at the tackle which Kemar Roofe was retrospectively banned for this season. The tackle was above the knee and right in front of the ref. It was the most blatant red card. But the referee dodged it - no doubt because in his mind, he’d have been worried about getting criticised for it afterwards.

 

VAR is badly needed in Scotland because officials here don’t have the bollocks to make calls against the old form in real time.

[Pasquale for King]

I remember going to some dinner organised by the club at Harry Ramsdens I think, maybe a fundraiser or something around late 80s. Walter Kidd was answering questions and he was asked about biased refs. He said that Macdonald and Jardine told the team that they noticed the difference  playing for us, as Rangers players they thought they got decisions that were appropriate as they saw it. 
Around 15 years ago I would take English workmates to big games and they were astounded at how biased the officials were. 
VAR must come in shortly but it will still be the same biased *******s looking at the replays that refuse to overturn the decision on the field, a bit like how Harry Maguire seems to get away with murder for Man Utd. 
Let’s not parrot the SPFL/SFA argument about the cost because if the A League in Oz can afford it then we can. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Pasquale for King

[colinmaroon]

46 minutes ago, OTT said:

Of course they are. Every FIFA grade referee (the top ones in Scotland that do Europe) are from Glasgow, or the wee towns just outside Glasgow. 

 

They live there. Even if we put aside the high probability the are OF fans, how can they walk around their local area if they've 'cost' their team points? We're talking about conscious and sub conscious bias. Conscious is Davisgate, sub-conscious is them giving the OF penalties and it being mission impossible to get one against them. Have Rangers actually even conceded one penalty this season? Don't tell me its because they're defenders are so good either, probability suggests they should have conceded a few. 

 

There clearly is a bias at senior level to promoting refs outside of Glasgow up. Craig Levein's stat about how few non-Glasgow refs have refereed a Scottish cup final speaks volumes about the ingrained culture there. 

 

I think moving the Refs HQ out of Glasgow (hell the SFA too) to say a more neutral city like Dundee would be good to see. It would mean all the support staff wouldn't be OF fans which must contribute to the culture. Even if it is just a wee joke here and there. 

 

 

Scottish equivalent of sending them to a gulag.  All for it!

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

38 minutes ago, Locky said:

Can't remember which ref it was, but I recall one having a column in a paper after he retired, and he openly admitted that if you're reffing at Parkhead or Ibrox, you tend to favour the home team as it's such a hostile environment, and you're not sure what could happen if you upset them.

 

Surprised more wasn't made of that tbh. Tynecastle can be just as hostile with a poor refereeing performance. Remember Bobby Madden having to get a police escort off the park against Hamilton a few seasons ago.

They rarely favour us in games against the uglies at home where we outnumber their fans, just another lie. 

[Locky]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

They rarely favour us in games against the uglies at home where we outnumber their fans, just another lie. 

Just came across as a total fob off. Look at the Andy Davis game for example. Surprised he made it out the ground alive.

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, Locky said:

Just came across as a total fob off. Look at the Andy Davis game for example. Surprised he made it out the ground alive.

Definitely. The whole game is structured for the benefit of two clubs. 

[NANOJAMBO]

Andy Davis & Hugh Dallas in THAT game : no question, biased.

And while we're at it, in the 50-odd years I've been watching Hearts, nearly always the "top" referees come from the W of Scotland. Statistically , what are the odds ? 

It'll never happen , but management/training of refs should be taken out of the hands of the SFA and most certainly out of the W of Scotland. There's an absolute conflict of interest in the SFA controlling refs IMO. 

[colinmaroon]

25 minutes ago, martoon said:

Always enjoy the contrast when Celtic and Rangers play in Europe.

 

The disbelief and incredulity when they don't get penalties for merely falling down in the box or when players are rightly sent packing for brutal tackles makes watching worthwhile.

 

That would happen weekly if they joined some daft Atlantic League.

 

Mentioned the bias to a few OF fans over the years and they're astonished. No surprise. They think a McCoist, Laudrup, Larsson etc. twisting their body shape to drag a leg over a sprawled 'keeper is a penalty.

 

"Contact, he's entitled to go down..."

 

I never laugh at others being cheated, even Hibs, as I know that the next time we play the OF it will happen to us.

 

Add in Budge/Neilson's Hearts, Covid 19...I'm finding myself at a tipping point, football wise.

 

Sad times.

 

 

I am at the same place!  

 

Brought my kids up going to all the games, despite travelling with weans from Cardross every week.

 

Took my oldest grandson to games a few years ago and he's now 18 and while still a Hearts fan, he never goes to the game and has lost interest in football generally.

 

I have two two year grandchildren, who are being indoctrinated but when they are old enough, really football has committed suicide IMO.  I gave up Sky Sports and BT Sport and don't miss it - and after 60+ years actually following Hearts and being "mad" on football, the events of last year and the performances latterly have completely scunnered me.  All the passion has been sucked out of me and the only time I felt really passionately involved recently was with the Caley venture - not even my own team.

 

I watch Hearts every week and one thing hammered home in hindsight.  When Gnando equalised v QoS to make it 2-2, I sat dead still on the sofa and there was no reaction at all.  This from someone who used to constantly get a rollicking for bellowing when we scored.

 

 

[jamboozy]

Twisted wankers, every one of them.

[Ex member of the SaS]

I suggest a solution could be: Make refs full time and accountable to a panel of managers/ club owners. When they make mistakes they are punished with lower league less well paid gigs, or not selected for x number of games. 

Not saying this would work in the real world but something along these lines would be a starting point for discussion.

[SectionDJambo]

1 hour ago, lost in space said:

It doesn't help that most of the refs are from the west (unless recently changed).

 

Let's face it, if you lived in the west you knew that if you made a bad decision against an old firm team, your wife would be verbally abused and kids bullied at school.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Mob rule and intimidation from the morons who follow Rangers and Celtic. There’s a reason they haven’t publicised the town that referees live in for years now.

It wouldn’t just be about the 100% decisions either. They want all of the 50% ones too.

I would be of the opinion that fear is the biggest problem Scottish referees have rather than bias. It’s not a very good look for Scotland, but not unique. Did Madden and 2 assistants not go over to Greece recently to referee a match that Greek officials couldn’t take?

[Fort Vallance]

Of course the big clubs get the decisions. Virtually all the 50/50's but that happens In most top leagues.

 

The worry is in Scotland they genuinely think they're impartial. It's a nightmare scenario of half bias and half incompetence.

[Diadora Van Basten]

When it comes to refereeing all roads lead to Hugh Dallas.

 

The fact that he believes you need to referee the Old Firm match differently to other matches tells you everything you need to know about him.

 

No grade one refs from Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen.

 

Rangers and Celtic top of the fair play league.

 

Good on Hughes for speaking out at a time when he didn’t have too.

[SectionDJambo]

7 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

I watch Hearts every week and one thing hammered home in hindsight.  When Gnando equalised v QoS to make it 2-2, I sat dead still on the sofa and there was no reaction at all.  This from someone who used to constantly get a rollicking for bellowing when we scored.

This is the most threatening thing to Hearts for now. Anger is being replaced by apathy and a feeling of enough being enough. Hearts fans seem to feel really detached from our club and will find other things to get passionate about if real change doesn’t come soon.

In 60 years of supporting Hearts, we have had worse times, but fans morale is, in my opinion, at one of the lowest points in my time. Fans of my generation have seen this current malais before, but expected it never to return.

[martoon]

12 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

I am at the same place!  

 

Brought my kids up going to all the games, despite travelling with weans from Cardross every week.

 

Took my oldest grandson to games a few years ago and he's now 18 and while still a Hearts fan, he never goes to the game and has lost interest in football generally.

 

I have two two year grandchildren, who are being indoctrinated but when they are old enough, really football has committed suicide IMO.  I gave up Sky Sports and BT Sport and don't miss it - and after 60+ years actually following Hearts and being "mad" on football, the events of last year and the performances latterly have completely scunnered me.  All the passion has been sucked out of me and the only time I felt really passionately involved recently was with the Caley venture - not even my own team.

 

I watch Hearts every week and one thing hammered home in hindsight.  When Gnando equalised v QoS to make it 2-2, I sat dead still on the sofa and there was no reaction at all.  This from someone who used to constantly get a rollicking for bellowing when we scored.

 

 

 

Did the same when we equalised at Brora, colin. Not a flicker.

 

Attend with my teenage nephew these days. Got the ST's, as per, for this season but he's already told me not to bother if covid and Robbie prevail into next season.

 

Hopefully the summer will see all kinds of improvement, Hearts and pandemic wise, and we can get back to moaning about football where nature intended: at the game.

 

 

[3fingersreid]

Very 

[Bazzas right boot]

Our first stint in the championship changed me a little  on this. 

We "got" decisions against rangers a few times. 

 

I also think, although the refs can be  influenced by the OF it goes a little deeper than that. 

 

They are influenced by players, their reputation and the crowd more imo. 

 

Even this season v QoS, when we never got the pk early doors it was clear as day our next half shout was going to be given as the players and manager had got on about him for the first call. 

 

Brown and Naismith stand out recently but the list is endless. 

 

The OF tend to have more of these types of players ( internationals, captains, strong personality, players with a national reputation)  and they tend to get away with more because of it imo.

 

Our refs are just shit in general Tbh, collum is the one that has developed Tbh, can't believe I am typing that but he is generally quite strong and fair, although when he does get it wrong it tends to turn into the Willie Show and he brain farts all over the place. 

 

 

[martoon]

There was a recently retired ref a few years back who stated, on Sportsound, that he'd reffed the Old Firm game differently.

 

He was cut off by an astonished Dick Gordon to go for an interview somewhere and when they returned the backtracking was furious.

 

"Did the same for the Edinburgh derby, the Dundee derby..." He claimed, but it was obviously a lie.

 

Might have been Dallas snr, but, in truth, I'm not sure.

 

Perhaps someone else recalls the incident?

[OTT]

15 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Andy Davis & Hugh Dallas in THAT game : no question, biased.

And while we're at it, in the 50-odd years I've been watching Hearts, nearly always the "top" referees come from the W of Scotland. Statistically , what are the odds ? 

It'll never happen , but management/training of refs should be taken out of the hands of the SFA and most certainly out of the W of Scotland. There's an absolute conflict of interest in the SFA controlling refs IMO. 

 

An idea I've really wanted to see enacted would be a centralised UEFA referees association. Completely kill off domestic referees associations at a top flight level. The idea being that they are paid a salary which professionalises the job meaning it is their job, no more leader of the conservatives or high school teachers. It is their one and only job and they are paid accordingly. 

 

UEFA then assign them leagues for a period of time, e.g. 2 seasons. 

 

Pro's: Standards become more uniform, domestic biases are removed, job is professionalised, standards can be upheld as there is a central best practise to be observed. 

 

Con's: Willie doesn't get to ref Celtic games anymore. Perhaps some initial regional issues e.g. Southern European refs more inclined to buy dives (and vice versa) so in Scotland we could see some very soft penalties and in Spain we would see far fewer. 

 

Small nations with a couple of larger clubs will suffer due to biases.. If every nation contributed 0.5% of its TV deal we could come very close to professionalising referees across Europe. 

 

For context this would be, 

 

£8m from England

£5m from France

£5m from Germany

£5m from Spain

£4m from Italy

£1.9m from Turkey

£0.4 from Portugal

£0.4 from Belgium

£0.3 from Netherlands

£0.2 from Greece

 

Thats Europes top 10 leagues and you've got just over £30m to cover professional salaries. It could be tweaked to say 1% and you've raised £60m funds could be redirected from the Champions league too to help boost it up. Assistant referees could be taken from domestic leagues as a method to cut down costs and help build experience for those looking to go professional. 

 

 

[Harry Potter]

1 hour ago, Sherbet said:

Years ago a hibs supporting acquaintance of told me he had been at a fans do after Bertie auld signed for hibs. Auld was asked what he thought the biggest difference between playing for hibs and celtic. His reply   the referees

Ha ha, 

[martoon]

43 minutes ago, jamboozy said:

Twisted wankers, every one of them.

 

Post of the thread.

 

👍

[JamboAl]

A major problem is that all of the SUPPOSED top refs come from either Lanatkshire or Glasgow with one exception, Greg Aitken from Ayrshire: none from Edinburgh, Fife, Dundee, Aberdeen Borders, etc.

Can this be coincidence that not one from these areas is considered good enough for any game let alone those involving the Ugly Sisters? 

 Even more ridiculous is the idea of Willie Collum or Son of Dallas reffing a Motherwell or Hamilton game.  They could esaily nip home at HT for a quick cuppa.

The new Head of Ref Operations is Crawford Allan from Edinburgh but I have not noticed any difference either in the selsction of refs for games or the quality of performance. 

[ford donald]

4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

A major problem is that all of the SUPPOSED top refs come from either Lanatkshire or Glasgow with one exception, Greg Aitken from Ayrshire: none from Edinburgh, Fife, Dundee, Aberdeen Borders, etc.

Can this be coincidence that not one from these areas is considered good enough for any game let alone those involving the Ugly Sisters? 

 Even more ridiculous is the idea of Willie Collum or Son of Dallas reffing a Motherwell or Hamilton game.  They could esaily nip home at HT for a quick cuppa.

The new Head of Ref Operations is Crawford Allan from Edinburgh but I have not noticed any difference either in the selsction of refs for games or the quality of performance. 

 

It's been the same for decades, don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Busby8]

3 hours ago, lost in space said:

It doesn't help that most of the refs are from the west (unless recently changed).

 

Let's face it, if you lived in the west you knew that if you made a bad decision against an old firm team, your wife would be verbally abused and kids bullied at school.

 

I read somewhere a while ago that you could count the number of Edinburgh referees who have officiated at Scottish Cup Finals on one hand.

 

Says it all.

 

.

[merrymac]

CL on Sportsound on Monday claiming he contested a referee decision, and the referee came across and whispered "your getting nothing today"

Absolutely sums up the attitude and mentality of referees in Scotland, sorry Glasgow.

[Cruyff]

Probably not as biased as they used to be but they're still below par. 

[Smoked-Glass]

It's embarrassing. 

 

We once had Dougie macdonald referring an Edinburgh Derby.. And he's a hibs fan. 

Why not get a Kwnt from Dundee to do the Edinburgh Derby???

 

Also check this out. 

 

[Harry Potter]

20 minutes ago, merrymac said:

CL on Sportsound on Monday claiming he contested a referee decision, and the referee came across and whispered "your getting nothing today"

Absolutely sums up the attitude and mentality of referees in Scotland, sorry Glasgow.

Would not surprise me, tbh they are a hopeless lot, not helped much by their hopeless specsavers

linejudges, dont forget they get a decent wage for a match.

[Section Q]

3 hours ago, martoon said:

Always enjoy the contrast when Celtic and Rangers play in Europe.

 

The disbelief and incredulity when they don't get penalties for merely falling down in the box or when players are rightly sent packing for brutal tackles makes watching worthwhile.

 

I wonder if a petition would maybe lead to an investigation into refs in Scotland.

[merrymac]

11 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

Would not surprise me, tbh they are a hopeless lot, not helped much by their hopeless specsavers

linejudges, dont forget they get a decent wage for a match.

Harry mate, it is corrupt as they come. Had a look into it a year or two ago. Something like 90%+ of referees at the top level are from Glasgow/Lanarkshire.. It is a total closed shop,they are brought through a system absolutely designed to churn out old firm biased refs'.

It would be laughed at in any other country. You could count the number of east coast, or north based refs on one hand.

Its all very fair though when you play the old firm you get a ref from Paisley or Motherwell so its all ok.

 

[jambo-in-furness]

1 hour ago, merrymac said:

CL on Sportsound on Monday claiming he contested a referee decision, and the referee came across and whispered "your getting nothing today"

Absolutely sums up the attitude and mentality of referees in Scotland, sorry Glasgow.

 

 

a sad indictment of our so called “referees”.  More worrying is,  it could have been anyone from approx 6 or 7,  I don’t need to name them as we all know their identity.

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

Biased is a difficult one to prove, but certainly badly incompetent.

[martoon]

44 minutes ago, Section Q said:

I wonder if a petition would maybe lead to an investigation into refs in Scotland.

 

Would like to see Mark Daley (I think that's his name) do one of his investigations.

 

Mic up an undercover, budding young referee, secret filming etc.

 

That would shine a light in the darkest corners of Lanarkshire refereeing.

 

Doubt BBC Glas...Scotland would permit it, though.

Edited April 7, 2021 by martoon

[rory78]

1 hour ago, merrymac said:

CL on Sportsound on Monday claiming he contested a referee decision, and the referee came across and whispered "your getting nothing today"

Absolutely sums up the attitude and mentality of referees in Scotland, sorry Glasgow.

If that happened Levein should've named the official