Right then, Next Manager?

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, Diego10 said:

The problem there is we won't like the candidates that are a) interested and b) in our price range.

 

We looked all over for managers in October last year.  Stendel was what we got and most folk were pretty happy.  Not many wanted a Jack Ross or Stephen Robinson.  

 

Sometimes it's just about luck with your timing on who's available

McInnes and Neil both available...great timing if you ask me. 

[Diego10]

4 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

McInnes and Neil both available...great timing if you ask me. 

Neill if he is interested would be good.  

 

McInnes - why?  Boring football, check.  Poor cup record,check.  Never achieving more than expectation, check.

 

He was on course for his 3rd 4th place in a row despite a huge budget advantage over Killie,  Motherwell and to a lesser extent Hibs.  

 

I just don't see it with him

[Ainsley Harriott]

Next seasons manager will 100% be

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Robbie The Jobby Neilson

[Benzinho]

11 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

Neill if he is interested would be good.  

 

McInnes - why?  Boring football, check.  Poor cup record,check.  Never achieving more than expectation, check.

 

He was on course for his 3rd 4th place in a row despite a huge budget advantage over Killie,  Motherwell and to a lesser extent Hibs.  

 

I just don't see it with him

Neil would be interested. That's from a very good source. 

[David Black]

Must be a foreign English speaking coach, who has a track record of entertaining attacking football, who will bring fresh ideas to the coaching, someone the players will enjoy playing for and someone who can bring through and improve our youngsters in particular. 

[Agentjambo]

1 minute ago, David Black said:

Must be a foreign English speaking coach, who has a track record of entertaining attacking football, who will bring fresh ideas to the coaching, someone the players will enjoy playing for and someone who can bring through and improve our youngsters in particular. 

Like say...Stendel 🙄

[Cruyff]

21 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

The problem there is we won't like the candidates that are a) interested and b) in our price range.

 

We looked all over for managers in October last year.  Stendel was what we got and most folk were pretty happy.  Not many wanted a Jack Ross or Stephen Robinson.  

 

Sometimes it's just about luck with your timing on who's available

There's plenty good coaches out there within our price range that would love to coach a club like Hearts and aren't of these islands. 

 

Plenty Argentinian, Italian, Spanish Portuguese, Scandinavian, German, Belgian, Dutch coaches who would love to try their hand in British football and would be within our price range. 

 

I refuse to accept that we're limited to out of work Scottish or English coaches when it comes to finding a new manager. 

[David Black]

Just now, Agentjambo said:

Like say...Stendel 🙄

Like say Stendel as an example.

[Leveins Battalion]

Loads of top managers would jump the chance to manage HMFC,instead we are lumbered with the most boring,inept idiot.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

There's plenty good coaches out there within our price range that would love to coach a club like Hearts and aren't of these islands. 

 

Plenty Argentinian, Italian, Spanish Portuguese, Scandinavian, German, Belgian, Dutch coaches who would love to try their hand in British football and would be within our price range. 

 

I refuse to accept that we're limited to out of work Scottish or English coaches when it comes to finding a new manager. 

Quite right. The 'needs experience of the Scottish game' chat is just bullshit. Foreign coaches in every league in the world but somehow Scotland needs an ever revolving subs bench of mediocre managers swapping jobs.

[Diego10]

5 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

There's plenty good coaches out there within our price range that would love to coach a club like Hearts and aren't of these islands. 

 

Plenty Argentinian, Italian, Spanish Portuguese, Scandinavian, German, Belgian, Dutch coaches who would love to try their hand in British football and would be within our price range. 

 

I refuse to accept that we're limited to out of work Scottish or English coaches when it comes to finding a new manager. 

Stendel was German last time I checked?

 

And sure there are loads of coaches but you'd be taking a risk with any appointment from abroad.  How's their English, can they get the players they need to fit their style of play, will they adapt to the UK?

 

I'm not suggesting you can't look outside the UK, obviously not, but it's just another layer of complexity

[Byyy The Light]

3 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

Stendel was German last time I checked?

 

And sure there are loads of coaches but you'd be taking a risk with any appointment from abroad.  How's their English, can they get the players they need to fit their style of play, will they adapt to the UK?

 

I'm not suggesting you can't look outside the UK, obviously not, but it's just another layer of complexity

 

I think the biggest challenge you have with a foreign coach is the willingness of the players to embrace the new ways of working.  That's where Stendel made an arse of things imo.  It was bold to get rid of someone like Berra (and the right decision) but putting senior players noses out of joint can make your job twice as hard.  Lampard made the same mistake at Chelsea.

 

Keeping a squad/dressing room together, happy and motivated is arguably the hardest part of being a manager.  A lot of Scottish players don't like change and different ways of doing things.

[Cruyff]

9 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

Stendel was German last time I checked?

 

And sure there are loads of coaches but you'd be taking a risk with any appointment from abroad.  How's their English, can they get the players they need to fit their style of play, will they adapt to the UK?

 

I'm not suggesting you can't look outside the UK, obviously not, but it's just another layer of complexity

The last two cup winning coaches we've had were foreign. The majority of coaches in England must be foreigners as well. 

There's not many good Scottish coaches out there. Perhaps Steve Clarke and Davie Moyes being the exception. 

[Diego10]

1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

I think the biggest challenge you have with a foreign coach is the willingness of the players to embrace the new ways of working.  That's where Stendel made an arse of things imo.  It was bold to get rid of someone like Berra (and the right decision) but putting senior players noses out of joint can make your job twice as hard.  Lampard made the same mistake at Chelsea.

 

Keeping a squad/dressing room together, happy and motivated is arguably the hardest part of being a manager.  A lot of Scottish players don't like change and different ways of doing things.

Well quite.  At least in our case nobody would care if the vast majority of players were emptied and replaced - however that would still come with risk, because any manager in our budget is going to be. 

 

as an example, Ronnie Deila was highly regarded and look at the shambles that celtic became.  

 

Not saying you can't get it spot on but folk making decisions want to try and close as many risks as they can before appointing

[Never Let Them Forget]

26 minutes ago, David Black said:

Must be a foreign English speaking coach, who has a track record of entertaining attacking football, who will bring fresh ideas to the coaching, someone the players will enjoy playing for and someone who can bring through and improve our youngsters in particular. 

Stendel

[SomethingAboutObua]

21 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Quite right. The 'needs experience of the Scottish game' chat is just bullshit. Foreign coaches in every league in the world but somehow Scotland needs an ever revolving subs bench of mediocre managers swapping jobs.

Depressingly spot on. You do need to be aware if you manage a bigger SPFL club then half the teams in the league sit jn against you. That's it. That's what "knowledge of the Scottish game" is. 

[Byyy The Light]

1 minute ago, Diego10 said:

Well quite.  At least in our case nobody would care if the vast majority of players were emptied and replaced - however that would still come with risk, because any manager in our budget is going to be. 

 

as an example, Ronnie Deila was highly regarded and look at the shambles that celtic became.  

 

Not saying you can't get it spot on but folk making decisions want to try and close as many risks as they can before appointing

 

And emptying players and replacing them isn't easy or cheap.

 

Totally agree, it's not an easy task getting the right man.  My pick would be John Robertson at the moment.  Would be happy to win 5-4 every week and would be one of the only people I can think of to unite the fanbase and the squad.

 

Whether he's the answer longer term remains to be seen but given the state we are in. Budge disappearing and Robbo coming in would give everyone a big shot in the arm.

[Guest]

I see Nicky Butt has left his job at Man U............

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, David McCaig said:

Picking the best candidate for the job?

 

Tbf, to get promotion with us out of this division Robbie was the best man for the job.

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

And emptying players and replacing them isn't easy or cheap.

 

Totally agree, it's not an easy task getting the right man.  My pick would be John Robertson at the moment.  Would be happy to win 5-4 every week and would be one of the only people I can think of to unite the fanbase and the squad.

 

Whether he's the answer longer term remains to be seen but given the state we are in. Budge disappearing and Robbo coming in would give everyone a big shot in the arm.

 

 

John Robertson would be the worst.

 

He's an average manager and the folk of folk turning against him makes me boak.

 

Robertson is not a better manager than Neilson and wouldn't be an upgrade.

 

[Bazzas right boot]

 

 

Lets replace the guy that is getting us promoted with the guy who helped get us relegated?

 

Is that what folk have landed on?
 

 

 

 

[Agentjambo]

10 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Lets replace the guy that is getting us promoted with the guy who helped get us relegated?

 

Is that what folk have landed on?
 

 

 

 

Stendel isn't the answer now. 

However ask yourself this...if it was Neilson that had taken over when Stendel did and we were relegated, would Neilson have kept his job??

I think we all know the answer. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Agentjambo

[OTT]

Alex Neil IMO seems the best and most logical choice. 

 

We need someone who can work with young talent, he's done that at Hamilton, Norwich and Preston. The latter two are of a much higher standard to Neilson. Its a no brainer if we can get him. No issue with him coming in, in the summer too, just please not McInnes or sticking with this ****ing loser. 

[Bad Religion]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

Stendel isn't the answer now. 

However ask yourself this...if it was Neilson that had taken over when Stendel did and we were relegated, would Neilson have kept his job??

I think we all know the answer. 

 

Don't take the bait. He's trying to deflect attention away from the shit clubs statement.

 

He 100% has some type of affiliation to the club. 

 

Club Troll.

[soonbe110]

1 hour ago, David Black said:

Must be a foreign English speaking coach, who has a track record of entertaining attacking football, who will bring fresh ideas to the coaching, someone the players will enjoy playing for and someone who can bring through and improve our youngsters in particular. 

Alex Neil fits the bill 

[SomethingAboutObua]

Hearts fans right now are split on whether they want Alex Neil, Derek McInnes, or a Stendel type coach.

 

Every Hearts fan right now agrees if they didn't get their first choice, they'd accept any of those options as a second choice.

 

No Hearts fan right now is saying they want to keep Robbie Neilson.

 

Just if there's any board members reading this. No one ****ing wants Neilson. Everyone wants a change. Get a ****ing grip Hearts and re-engage with the fans. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

2 hours ago, David McCaig said:

Picking the best candidate for the job?

Yep this is an interesting concept we should maybe try looking at someone with a track record which comes closest to what we expect. Have gone to and fro but now feel that McInnes is the man, I know others don’t like him, many consider him a bit of a prick. But you need that edge in the Hearts dug out. The big thing IMO it’s going to take, is broad shoulders. Someone that has carried a club in this weight class to results and understands the magnitude of it and the extent of the pressure cooker he’s walking into. He will set up the artillery, the cavalry and the infantry in tried and tested fashion and send the troops to war. The Hearts fans would take to it if the league table looked the way we want it to be. But crucially, he’s someone that is not connected to us or carrying any baggage from our clubs past. A fresh pair of eyes, a fresh mentality, but one who is up to speed on this league and the competitors. 

 

Although I can’t say I’d be unhappy with Alex Neil if he was the choice and the deal was right. Think he would probably need a bit more time + patience to get all systems running smooth the way he would want them. More of an engineer / technician than a fighter / general. But that’s just it, do we have time to be patient here? The demand is, above Hibs and above Aberdeen next season it is that simple. And we want silverware on the table, or at least to give it a respectable go. 

[MadVlad1962]

Doesn’t look like Eddie Howe will get the selik job... he could use us as rodgers did them which I wouldn’t mind. He would have us challenging for 3rd next season IMO 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Agentjambo said:

Stendel isn't the answer now. 

However ask yourself this...if it was Neilson that had taken over when Stendel did and we were relegated, would Neilson have kept his job??

I think we all know the answer. 

 

He could be the answer next season tho.

Probably , yes given his track record with us. 

No one really knows tho and if, if that is the game we are playing -given Robbie's league record - If Robbie had taken over us in 10th, do you think we would have dropped to 12th or had enough in us to stay of the bottom, even if it wasn't pretty?

[Pasquale for King]

6 hours ago, Diego10 said:

Well quite.  At least in our case nobody would care if the vast majority of players were emptied and replaced - however that would still come with risk, because any manager in our budget is going to be. 

 

as an example, Ronnie Deila was highly regarded and look at the shambles that celtic became.  

 

Not saying you can't get it spot on but folk making decisions want to try and close as many risks as they can before appointing

They won the league every year he was there? Probably more to do with Collins and Kennedy that they weren’t great towards the end. I think he’s at New York Man City now, must have something and has a 50.32 career win percentage. 

[gregzy2k7]

7 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Next seasons manager will 100% be

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Robbie The Jobby Neilson

Fs!💩 god help us if that happens

[Central Belt 1874]

7 hours ago, Bad Religion said:

 

Don't take the bait. He's trying to deflect attention away from the shit clubs statement.

 

He 100% has some type of affiliation to the club. 

 

Club Troll.

 

Would be amazed if he wasnt! 

[shaun.lawson]

Absolutely agree that Alex Neil would be the correct choice. Great with young players, ambitious style of play too: he had Norwich pressing and suffocating the life out of teams 6 years before Barnsley have done it so brilliantly this season.

 

He's young (still not even 40 yet), bright, driven and he does not suffer fools. You do not **** with him - he'd sort that dressing room out pretty quickly. Sure, he wasn't up to it in the English Premier League - but of course he wasn't! Financially, Norwich can't compete at that level.

 

Preston, meanwhile, have one of the smallest budgets in the Championship. He did really well there for the most part. But from his point of view, he'll struggle to get a good job with a Championship club with money to spend, and he needs to remake himself. Taking Hearts from this miserable shambles back to prominence would fit the bill very nicely.

 

In other words, he needs us as much as we need him. So go get him. 

[franco2209]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

Absolutely agree that Alex Neil would be the correct choice. Great with young players, ambitious style of play too: he had Norwich pressing and suffocating the life out of teams 6 years before Barnsley have done it so brilliantly this season.

 

He's young (still not even 40 yet), bright, driven and he does not suffer fools. You do not **** with him - he'd sort that dressing room out pretty quickly. Sure, he wasn't up to it in the English Premier League - but of course he wasn't! Financially, Norwich can't compete at that level.

 

Preston, meanwhile, have one of the smallest budgets in the Championship. He did really well there for the most part. But from his point of view, he'll struggle to get a good job with a Championship club with money to spend, and he needs to remake himself. Taking Hearts from this miserable shambles back to prominence would fit the bill very nicely.

 

In other words, he needs us as much as we need him. So go get him. 

Agree,he is the perfect fit ,and he already knows this league inside out, he'd settle in very quickly.

[Paolo]

18 hours ago, Diego10 said:

Neill if he is interested would be good.  

 

McInnes - why?  Boring football, check.  Poor cup record,check.  Never achieving more than expectation, check.

 

He was on course for his 3rd 4th place in a row despite a huge budget advantage over Killie,  Motherwell and to a lesser extent Hibs.  

 

I just don't see it with him

I agree. He has only ever achieved what he ought to have, with crap football. where it matters, particularly against Rangers and Celtic, he bottles it.  It is also always someone else’s fault.  

 

 Better than what we have?  Yes. 
 

The answer? No. 

[GinRummy]

5 minutes ago, Paolo said:

I agree. He has only ever achieved what he ought to have, with crap football. where it matters, particularly against Rangers and Celtic, he bottles it.  It is also always someone else’s fault.  

 

 Better than what we have?  Yes. 
 

The answer? No. 

I said earlier in the week, I’d have taken him 5 years ago but not now. He’s done well for Aberdeen but his style of football is now dated and overly defensive. He’s finished at any decent level and it would be a huge mistake to hire him. 

[GinRummy]

16 hours ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

Hearts fans right now are split on whether they want Alex Neil, Derek McInnes, or a Stendel type coach.

 

Every Hearts fan right now agrees if they didn't get their first choice, they'd accept any of those options as a second choice.

 

No Hearts fan right now is saying they want to keep Robbie Neilson.

 

Just if there's any board members reading this. No one ****ing wants Neilson. Everyone wants a change. Get a ****ing grip Hearts and re-engage with the fans. 

I wouldn’t accept McInnes. We would be having a similar conversation now in 6 months time if we hired him imo. 

[gorgieheart]

If and its a huuuuuge IF , Robbie etc are removed, do we actually have the finances to fund that severance package ?

 

Do we then have the funds to tempt somebody like Alex Neil ?  He would need a guaranteed fund to bring in his own players and backroom team.

 

Could all come down to the £

[Rick Sanchez]

Budge should be paying the severance package out of her own pocket. She went against her own word and hired him before the sporting director because she just couldn't pass up on an amazing opportunity to hire her yes man.

 

Include it in the handover. Thanks and bye.

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

9 minutes ago, gorgieheart said:

If and its a huuuuuge IF , Robbie etc are removed, do we actually have the finances to fund that severance package ?

 

Do we then have the funds to tempt somebody like Alex Neil ?  He would need a guaranteed fund to bring in his own players and backroom team.

 

Could all come down to the £

Exactly, I don't think we do although there is many player's contracts up in the summer which would give us wiggle room as we've lost millions in the last year to covid, getting punted oot the cup's early from the mighty Alloa and Jossies Giants Brora Effin Go and watch Man City Rangers, but we could afford Arbroath manager Dick Campbell which would be a massive step up from Robbie 

Probably important that monthly FOH payments are maintained as an income stream although can't see that now until Neilson goes, so it could be a long summer of farting about from Budge in Leveinexit 2

 

[LarrysRightFoot]

24 minutes ago, gorgieheart said:

If and its a huuuuuge IF , Robbie etc are removed, do we actually have the finances to fund that severance package ?

 

Do we then have the funds to tempt somebody like Alex Neil ?  He would need a guaranteed fund to bring in his own players and backroom team.

 

Could all come down to the £

We cannot afford not to sack him. He stays = 3K season ticket sales or he leaves 8K + season ticket sales. Not to mention FOH subs and merchandise etc. 

[mre]

13 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

We cannot afford not to sack him. He stays = 3K season ticket sales or he leaves 8K + season ticket sales. Not to mention FOH subs and merchandise etc. 

This. 

 

Sacking him is going to be far less costly than keeping him. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

I wouldn’t accept McInnes. We would be having a similar conversation now in 6 months time if we hired him imo. 

End of the day, next season is about getting an immediate squad together with an immediate demand to be above Hibs and above Aberdeen, and back at Hampden. You’ve got to look for someone with a track record who has met those expectations. Look around. There’s just not many managers who can point to a track record like Mcinnes in terms of the weight of the club. 

 

The style of football only becomes an important conversation after we get to where Aberdeen/Hibs are now. Results are what matters. We need to get there first. 

 

You say it’s “defensive” but... we could do with starting by building a decent defence couldnt we? Looking to the next 3 or 4 years we’ve got 1 defender Kingsley who could be part of the long term plan, and then Souttar maybe yes or maybe not. We’ve hardly kept a clean sheet this season. Defence would be my absolute top top priority for next season, I think we’ve got goals in the team, but we’ve not had a defence for 3 or 4 years and ultimately that was what got both Levein and stendel the sack. Sloppy, slow, shite defence conceding crap goals one after another. 

 

But again, I’m just making the case for him, there are other good options out there including Neil who would be the stand out... but is he realistic? And he’s not been involved in Scottish football for about 10 years. I reckon his stock would still be high enough for a championship club to give him a crack next season. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by A_A wehatethehibs

[GinRummy]

Just now, A_A wehatethehibs said:

End of the day, next season is about getting an immediate squad together with an immediate demand to be above Hibs and above Aberdeen, and back at Hampden. You’ve got to look for someone with a track record who has met those expectations. Look around. There’s just not many managers who can point to a track record like Mcinnes in terms of the weight of the club. 

 

The style of football only becomes an important conversation after we get to where Aberdeen/Hibs are now. Results are what matters. We need to get there first. 

 

You say it’s “defensive” but... we could do with starting by building a decent defence couldnt we? Looking to the next 3 or 4 years we’ve got 1 defender Kingsley who could be part of the long term plan, and then Souttar maybe yes or maybe not. We’ve hardly kept a clean sheet this season. Defence would be my absolute top top priority for next season, I think we’ve got goals in the team, but we’ve not had a defence for 3 or 4 years and ultimately that was what got both Levein and stendel the sack. Sloppy, slow, shite defence conceding crap goals one after another. 

 

But again, I’m just making the case for him, there are other good options out there including Neil who would be the stand out... but is he realistic? And he’s not been involved in Scottish football for over 10 years. I reckon his stock would still be high enough for a championship club to give him a crack next season. 

Of course I get what you’re saying. My issue is that we’d be getting him when he’s a spent force. His track record means he had success in the past and that is often a good indicator of how a manager will do in the future. I don’t believe that is what would happen with McInness. I think Aberdeen have got rid of him at the right time.

 

Neil I know little about other than at Hamilton. From what I’ve read he would be a good appointment. 

[gorgie rools]

McInnes has been sounded out and is interested.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

9 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Of course I get what you’re saying. My issue is that we’d be getting him when he’s a spent force. His track record means he had success in the past and that is often a good indicator of how a manager will do in the future. I don’t believe that is what would happen with McInness. I think Aberdeen have got rid of him at the right time.

 

Neil I know little about other than at Hamilton. From what I’ve read he would be a good appointment. 

It would be fair enough to have your doubts, a lot of folk clearly would have doubts, he’s been a pantomime villain at times in certain games at Tynecastle, and the games have generally been battles. But his teams never gave any less than 100% that I saw and always carried a threat and a plan to do damage, whether it was nial mcginn or Rooney or whoever, we could do with some of them type of players IMO. McInnes would know what a pressure cooker he’d be walking into but I think he’d relish it. It’s the weight of the club that’s the thing for me. This is a heavyweight job in Scottish football so whoever it is, is going to need broad shoulders. I don’t think fans are in any kind of mood to wait for some philosopher to come in and take 3 years to produce a transformational way of playing while being in 6th place. I don’t think the patience is there. The demands of the fans for next season are as high as it’s been for many many years because we have been through the mill, it is a disgrace whats been served up here 100% disgrace. 
 

 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

6 minutes ago, gorgie rools said:

McInnes has been sounded out and is interested.

Could we not go for the Manchester City or United manager instead? 

[GinRummy]

3 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

It would be fair enough to have your doubts, a lot of folk clearly would have doubts, he’s been a pantomime villain at times in certain games at Tynecastle, and the games have generally been battles. But his teams never gave any less than 100% that I saw and always carried a threat and a plan to do damage, whether it was nial mcginn or Rooney or whoever, we could do with some of them type of players IMO. McInnes would know what a pressure cooker he’d be walking into but I think he’d relish it. It’s the weight of the club that’s the thing for me. This is a heavyweight job in Scottish football so whoever it is, is going to need broad shoulders. I don’t think fans are in any kind of mood to wait for some philosopher to come in and take 3 years to produce a transformational way of playing while being in 6th place. I don’t think the patience is there. The demands of the fans for next season are as high as it’s been for many many years because we have been through the mill, it is a disgrace whats been served up here 100% disgrace. 
 

 

All fair points. I’m not convinced but don’t have much to add other than what I’ve already said. If he were to get the job I’d support him like I’d support any other manager. And yes, it’s absolutely shameful what’s happened at our club. 

[Ford Prentice]

20 hours ago, Benzinho said:

Neil would be interested. That's from a very good source. 

 

12 minutes ago, gorgie rools said:

McInnes has been sounded out and is interested.

 

Two posters who don't post much and don't go in for hyperbole.

 

Are there moves afoot?

 

It's the hope that kills you...

[A_A wehatethehibs]

16 minutes ago, Ford Prentice said:

 

 

Two posters who don't post much and don't go in for hyperbole.

 

Are there moves afoot?

 

It's the hope that kills you...

To be fair, we do know Ann has a line, she has sacked 3 managers, but the line she drew was too late in the case of both Cathro and Levein and arguably too early in the case of Stendel. 
 

Let’s hope the line has been drawn in the correct place on this occasion. The line into sackable was crossed on Tuesday night no ifs or buts