VAR in Scotland.

[kingantti1874]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

VAR lite.    How extremely Scottish Football.  

 

VAR is an aberration.  There are too many grey areas and centimetre sensitive,  borderline instances for it to achieve it's purpose.

VAR isn’t the problem, the problem is not adapting the rules to make it more effective. For example - can you hand be offside ? Of course not. 
 

the offside rule should be simplified, the forward is onside unless there is a clear gap between the forward and the defender. This would remove these problems 

 

less controversy - more goals 

[Shanks]

7 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

i would say for offsides there should be an uncertainty of sorts in drawing lines. i.e. if the lines for the attacker and the last man is going to be smaller than x value (say 5cm) then the onfield decision should be final. it should help with the nonsense of is the players big toe just in front/behind the opponents giant nose

exactly, also the thickness of the lines they use to decide an offside are ridiculous.  You can’t call a decision that’s 1cm offside when you use a gauge which is about 10cm.  It’s laughable.  
 

Also the fact the frame rate of the cameras mean that it is impossible to call on/offside when it’s that tight a margin.

 

VAR should be a good thing but it is been used incorrectly right now.  Use it for clear and obvious mistakes. 

[The Hogfather]

5 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

one thing is for sure, VAR hasn’t resulted in more bad decisions. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that. 

 

 

I've just shown you two.

[kingantti1874]

5 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

I've just shown you two.

And what does that prove?  - the “volume” of refereeing mistakes has NOT increased per game. 

 

There are multiple bad decisions per game in Scotland. I could go to you tube and pull literally hundreds of refereeing shockers pre VAR

 

we had 2 very recently in our game at QOS. Had VAR been in place we’d have won the game . And against Alloa in the cup - Never a pen in million years 

Edited March 6, 2021 by kingantti1874

[The Hogfather]

Just now, kingantti1874 said:

And what does that prove?  - the “volume” of refereeing mistakes has NOT increased per game. 

 

There are multiple bad decisions per game in Scotland. I could go to you tube and pull literally hundreds of refereeing shockers pre VAR

 

Which would further prove my point that VAR doesn't stop these nonsense decisions from happening. You're the one arguing that VAR would improve things in Scotland, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

10 minutes ago, GYL said:

Hopefully they don't use current referees or even better Scottish referees full stop😉

But that is never going to happen.

[kingantti1874]

11 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

Which would further prove my point that VAR doesn't stop these nonsense decisions from happening. You're the one arguing that VAR would improve things in Scotland, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The existence of isolated incidents doesn’t mean it is not effective tool overall, there are clearly LESS bad decisions, and the remaining bad decisions are highlighted.

 

The in game  implementation could be improved. If that was your point then I wouldn’t challenge it but but as it stands your point isn’t proven - because it’s simply wrong

 

if you want to prove your point you will have to prove that a higher proportion of refereeing decisions with VAR are incorrect  compared to pre VAR  

 

good luck

Edited March 6, 2021 by kingantti1874

[Tommy Brown]

15 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

VAR isn’t the problem, the problem is not adapting the rules to make it more effective. For example - can you hand be offside ? Of course not. 
 

the offside rule should be simplified, the forward is onside unless there is a clear gap between the forward and the defender. This would remove these problems 

 

less controversy - more goals 

More goals, same controversy.

 

Clear gap would be measured  the same way. Not sure what your on about, hand not being offside. Is isn't and has been.

Not having a dig, not understanding your gist. Upper arm maybe?

 

As I said earlier, the var guy looks at it.

Is it clearly offside or not?

No bloody lines to show a miniscule part of a body bring off. Move on. 15-20 secs.

 

[The Hogfather]

3 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

the existence of isolated incidents doesn’t mean it is not effective tool , there are LESS bad decisions, and the remaining bad decisions are highlighted so the effectiveness of tool is clear. 

 

its implementation could be improved. If that was your point then I wouldn’t challenge but but as it stands your point isn’t proven - because it’s simply wrong

 

if you want to prove your point you will have to prove that a higher proportion of refereeing decisions with VAR are incorrect  compared to pre VAR  good luck proving that

 

 

 

Obviously these kinds of mistakes won't happen in Scotland, because things are more fairly judged up here. Without putting too fine a point on it, you're being absolutely ridiculous to think the Old Firm won't be handed bullshit decisions on a weekly basis because VAR Lite is kicking about. It's still the same people making the same decisions and if you're just going to wilfully ignore that fact, there's absolutely nothing that can be done for you.

[kingantti1874]

3 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

More goals, same controversy.

 

Clear gap would be measured  the same way. Not sure what your on about, hand not being offside. Is isn't and has been.

Not having a dig, not understanding your gist. Upper arm maybe?

 

As I said earlier, the var guy looks at it.

Is it clearly offside or not?

No bloody lines to show a miniscule part of a body bring off. Move on. 15-20 secs.

 

My point is the rules should be adapted to better accommodate VAR.

 

The offside rule is a great example, I do not agree that a player should be ruled offside for pointing to where he wants the pass.. you cannot score with your hand thus it shouldn’t be offside.

 

The example was if you tweaked the rule to say the forward is Onside if Any part of is body in inline with a defender then it would remove all of the nonsense about fingers and hands being offside.

 

it is the rule, not VAR. 

[The Hogfather]

Fans, players, managers down in England hate it, but things will clearly be different here. With less cameras and good honest officials like Willie Collum making the decisions from a hut in Glasgow, things will suddenly become more fair and equal.

 

Have you ever heard of anything more ****ing ridiculous?

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Nunya Business said:

 

 

 

Obviously these kinds of mistakes won't happen in Scotland, because things are more fairly judged up here. Without putting too fine a point on it, you're being absolutely ridiculous to think the Old Firm won't be handed bullshit decisions on a weekly basis because VAR Lite is kicking about. It's still the same people making the same decisions and if you're just going to wilfully ignore that fact, there's absolutely nothing that can be done for you.

Frantically trawling the negatives in a misguided attempt to prove your point but completely ignoring the number of incorrect decisions overturned because of VAR. 

 

As I’ve said - regardless of what you or I think it’s going to happen eventually. 

[Diego10]

VAR is terrible for many reasons, but the first and most important is it completely changes the experience for those at games.  

 

I hate it, and I don't for one second agree that the very small number of correct extra decisions you get are worth all the other nonsense that goes with it.

 

I also admire the naivete of anyone who subscribes to refereeing conspiracy theories who think more refereeing by the same organisation would improve that situation

[The Hogfather]

Just now, kingantti1874 said:

Frantically trawling the negatives in a misguided attempt to prove your point but completely ignoring the number of incorrect decisions overturned because of VAR. 

 

As I’ve said - regardless of what you or I think it’s going to happen eventually. 

 

Nothing frantic about typing 'VAR mistakes' into Google. Desperately trying to tell people the Old Firm won't get the same number of nonsense decisions they get in their favour every week because Bobby Madden will have a wee telly to watch is something else though  

[kingantti1874]

2 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

Fans, players, managers down in England hate it, but things will clearly be different here. With less cameras and good honest officials like Willie Collum making the decisions from a hut in Glasgow, things will suddenly become more fair and equal.

 

Have you ever heard of anything more ****ing ridiculous?

I don’t like how it has been implemented in England, it absolutely does break up the game too much.
 

The point I’m making is we may as well focus on how that could be improved because the technology isn’t magically going to disappear .

 

You are right to highlight the remaining mistakes, becuase the powers that be absolutely should be debating about how to improve VAR and how it is used. 

 

arguing that it has somehow negatively impact  the quality of decisions, or that there are more bad decisions is just nonsense.  It undermines the whole topic. Saying that you won’t be back, you may as well give it up now becuase whether it’s 1 year or 10. It’s going to happen 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, Diego10 said:

VAR is terrible for many reasons, but the first and most important is it completely changes the experience for those at games.  

 

I hate it, and I don't for one second agree that the very small number of correct extra decisions you get are worth all the other nonsense that goes with it.

 

I also admire the naivete of anyone who subscribes to refereeing conspiracy theories who think more refereeing by the same organisation would improve that situation

[The Hogfather]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I don’t like how it has been implemented in England, it absolutely does break up the game too much.
 

The point I’m making is we may as well focus on how that could be improved because the technology isn’t magically going to disappear .

 

You are right to highlight the remaining mistakes, becuase the powers that be absolutely should be debating about how to improve VAR and how it is used. 

 

arguing that it has somehow negatively impact  the quality of decisions, or that there are more bad decisions is just nonsense.  It undermines the whole topic. Saying that you won’t be back, you may as well give it up now becuase whether it’s 1 year or 10. It’s going to happen 

 

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be resisted.

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

VAR isn’t the problem, the problem is not adapting the rules to make it more effective. For example - can you hand be offside ? Of course not. 
 

the offside rule should be simplified, the forward is onside unless there is a clear gap between the forward and the defender. This would remove these problems 

 

less controversy - more goals 

 

Nope.  Tweak the rules and all you do is tweak the grey areas and centimetre marginal instances.  

[portobellojambo1]

32 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I don’t like how it has been implemented in England, it absolutely does break up the game too much.
 

The point I’m making is we may as well focus on how that could be improved because the technology isn’t magically going to disappear .

 

You are right to highlight the remaining mistakes, becuase the powers that be absolutely should be debating about how to improve VAR and how it is used. 

 

arguing that it has somehow negatively impact  the quality of decisions, or that there are more bad decisions is just nonsense.  It undermines the whole topic. Saying that you won’t be back, you may as well give it up now becuase whether it’s 1 year or 10. It’s going to happen 

I actually agree with this summary, it is the very fact that in many of the decisions being made in England it has involved a certain degree in either change or clarification of what is deemed offside, for example. To me no one should ever be declared offside if that part of their body producing an offside decision is part of their body that cannot be used to score a goal with, often the lower half of their arm. Similarly, and possibly just as or maybe more contentious, and possibly just as if not more likely to create confusion, is if the ball hitting an arm in the box was genuinely deliberate hand ball. Which to me always tended to mean that a defender had clearly put his hand/arm in a position to deliberately block the ball, rather than the ball coming off his arm as the direction of the ball meant it was impossible to be pre determined by the defender that he could have his arm in that position to make sure he blocked the ball. It might be a wee bit away yet but I think it could well be a possibility that in the not too distant future on field referees/linesmen could become historic and all decisions are made by computer and video film technology. Bit far fetched at the moment I accept, but it does seem that is a possible route, as it reduces/negates the possibility of pressure being put on officials to create what might be deemed as biased decisions.

[Ribble]

VAR could be used well but so far it’s been over complicated and has ruined football.

 

It should be kept simple, highlight where ref has made a clear and obvious error, for it to meet that criteria then the VAR officials have to be able to clearly see the error and reverse the on field decision within 30 seconds. If after 30 seconds there is still any debate then it cannot be clear and obvious and the initial decision stands.

 

Would also not be adverse to allowing managers a limited number of challenges, again it’d need to be limited to something like 60 seconds 

[kingantti1874]

18 minutes ago, Ribble said:

VAR could be used well but so far it’s been over complicated and has ruined football.

 

It should be kept simple, highlight where ref has made a clear and obvious error, for it to meet that criteria then the VAR officials have to be able to clearly see the error and reverse the on field decision within 30 seconds. If after 30 seconds there is still any debate then it cannot be clear and obvious and the initial decision stands.

 

Would also not be adverse to allowing managers a limited number of challenges, again it’d need to be limited to something like 60 seconds 

this is the type of thinking required. Take the tool and figure out how to integrate it more seamlessly into the game.. how to make it an active part of the game (I have always liked the challenge idea) 

 

simply fighting to turn back time is a waste of energy 

[Broxburn Jambo]

Not for me, I am still of the same opinion that the Rules of football should be the same at all levels.

[Smoked-Glass]

Don't forget this formula.

 

  VAR = GTF

 

Equation solved. 

[GED]

It is still   Var Var away.

[Smoked-Glass]

44 minutes ago, GED said:

It is still   Var Var away.

Not far enough away though. 

 

Take a hammer to it 

[John Findlay]

To use a topical line from Grange Hill in the 80s.

Just say no.

[ri Alban]

You can just see the reaction from Rangers and Celtic players/managers/fans when the ref goes to the monitor whilst officiating a game at their gauntlets of hate. 

[The Hogfather]

So with the Cavani disallowed goal yesterday and this shocker tonight, anyone still think VAR would be a good addition to Scottish football?

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

No thanks 

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

So with the Cavani disallowed goal yesterday and this shocker tonight, anyone still think VAR would be a good addition to Scottish football?

You should have added that it was not the No 5 who was deemed offside. It was the player mostly shielded by him.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Footballfirst

[William H. Bonney]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

You should have added that it was not the No 5 who was deemed offside. It was the player mostly shielded by him.

wow. I was going to say he looks offside but it’s the other guy, that’s ****ing crazy. 

[The Hogfather]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

You should have added that it was not the No 5 who was deemed offside. It was the player mostly shielded by him.

Good point. The VAR officials saying they couldn’t conclusively prove he was onside. So they ruled the goal out even though they also couldn’t prove he was offside. Laughable. 

[Footballfirst]

Just now, Nunya Business said:

Good point. The VAR officials saying they couldn’t conclusively prove he was onside. So they ruled the goal out even though they also couldn’t prove he was offside. Laughable. 

They have made up a rule that says that they stick with the onfield call, i.e. offside.  However, the flag didn't go up until the ball was in the net, i.e. dead.

[buzz]

15 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

You should have added that it was not the No 5 who was deemed offside. It was the player mostly shielded by him.

How can they possibly say that player( not no.5) is offside?  I thought VAR was meant to be for clear and obvious errors. This is clearly not that!

[Newton51]

I don’t know why they couldn’t use the defender heel and draw the line up which would show that the attacker wasn’t beyond that point. The explanation seemed more like they were covering up the mistake

[Footballfirst]

26 minutes ago, Newton51 said:

I don’t know why they couldn’t use the defender heel and draw the line up which would show that the attacker wasn’t beyond that point. The explanation seemed more like they were covering up the mistake

That's exactly what it was.  I don't have an issue with the lino making a wrong call. It looked tight in real time. The lino did what he was trained to do, let the move complete (goal scored) before putting his flag up and leave it to VAR to rule on the offside.

 

However VAR claims that it is unable to make the call because of lack of camera angles to be able to draw a line, yet the angles they do have were perfectly good enough to make an accurate call without drawing lines.

[Smoked-Glass]

The agenda is all wrong.

 

  Going out of their way to find anything and everything to try and chalk goals off.  That's not what people want in football ffs.  If anything it should be trying to get MORE goals in the game, not fewer. 

 

Retarded system that has ruined the game. 

[upgotheheads]

Jeezo. If they ever let VAR into Scottish football then that's the end.

[Busby8]

VAR huh ??.......

 

We get a penalty at Ibrokes, but then there's the inpartial Bobby Madden in the VAR box, given a few minutes in front of a battery of monitors desperately dissecting all the play leading up to the award.

I'm pretty sure he'll find some minor infringement to pull it back for.

Oh, and don't expect the same level of scrutiny if it's ever the other way round.

 

VAR will not be the problem, it will be the cheating barstewards running it who will be given more of an opportunity to favour their own.

 

.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Busby8

[Smoked-Glass]

Var =gtf 

[indianajones]

Sign me up. 

 

The amount of times we have been well and truly shafted because of our cheating officials is unreal.

 

Would put an end to that. 

[Sooperstar]

Keep VAR out of Scottish Football.

[John Findlay]

32 minutes ago, indianajones said:

Sign me up. 

 

The amount of times we have been well and truly shafted because of our cheating officials is unreal.

 

Would put an end to that. 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Nelly Terraces]

If this is introduced here that's me done with football, I won't be back.

 

It just takes away from the humanity, spontaneity & excitement of games - some guy miles away in an office deciding whether a toenail is offside while we stand about like a bunch of idiots who don't matter waiting on the decision. Nah,you're OK thanks.  Treated like mugs at football as it is, without this exacerbating the problem further.

[The Hogfather]

1 hour ago, indianajones said:

Sign me up. 

 

The amount of times we have been well and truly shafted because of our cheating officials is unreal.

 

Would put an end to that. 

You’re right tbf. John Beaton would suddenly become an extremely honest official because he’d have Bobby Madden helping him from a wee hut in Lanarkshire. 
 

 

[DesertDawg]

There's nothing wrong with technology  systems or their intent.  Introduce incompetent officials and, just like on the park, many mistakes will be made.....some which might well be biased.  Conversely, it can also make biased decision making much more difficult for the officials.  Take Hearts second goal against Celtic in the Scottish Cup final.  It would never have been given if goal line technology had not immediately signalled a goal to John Beaton's wrist display......especially since he was already on his way back up the pitch before the alert went off.    

 

In the U.S. where VAR exists in other sports like NFL Football and Hockey, as well as Major League Soccer it generally works well but that may be due to a combination of greater acceptance of video rulings by the fans and a more liberal application of the rules by the officials.  Having the VAR desk in the actual stadium where the game is taking place seems to make a difference too although I'm far from convinced that would work in Scotland where, maybe Switzerland, would be a better call.  

 

https://www.inquirer.com/soccer/premier-league-var-mls-video-replay-howard-webb-20200106.html

 

 

 

 

  

[SomethingAboutObua]

Should do the appeal system they're trialing in Super Rugby, the captain has 10 seconds to use their appeal and if they don't then no review needed and try given. People want VAR for the moments players turn around and scream at the referee for missing someone being a yard offside or handballing in the box, not the ball brushing the strikers arm that everyone missed 30 seconds ago in the build up.

 

VAR is an open goal if you slightly copy the rugby TMO, but the SFA/SPFL will be certain to try and copy England as closely as possible on it and **** it up somehow. 

[Captain Canada]

It's been terrible in England. If they insisted on some form of it here, I'd just want the ref to have a pitchside monitor if he wasn't 100% sure about a decision. 

 

I'd rather not have it at all and definitely never for offside decisions. Having goal line technology at every ground would probably be a better use of money. 

[DETTY29]

Isn't Scotland talking about VAR light?

 

On the face of it seems a not bad idea if it is only key decisions (only howlers, immediate 'assist' infringements) but as soon as it's introduced, after a couple of games some folk will be wanting it to gtf one week, but the next same wanting the full bhuna, dependent on what way decisions have impacted their team.

 

All involved in football are hypocrites capable of comparing an apple with the moon one minute, but considering a clementine and tangerine as having no similarities the next.

[Smoked-Glass]

Hopeless