Close the academy

[Byyy The Light]

Just now, Footballfirst said:

TBF you only asked who they had brought through, not that they had benefited in any substantial way.

 

Yeh.  I'm just weighing up what the point in the academy is.  It's either got to be get players good enough for the first team or get some decent money in transfers to justify the investment.

 

Apart from McKenna they've had poor fees.  They got some good performances from Jack but ultimately he left for nothing.  Didn't get anything like the value for Fraser.

 

Struggling to see the reasons to invest big in academies! Especially when we're on the doorstep of the bloated ones down south who release bags of talent every year.  Just invest in good scouts and hoover up the best of those released.

[OTT]

I think Ann should be asking Robbie plainly why he isn't playing the youngsters. Not to catch him out or anything, genuinely. If he doesn't feel they are good enough then there needs to be discussion between Robbie, Savage and Arnott. Because to only have 1 meaningful youth player developed in 7 years beggars belief and requires further investigation to see if this is genuinely an academy failing or if the previous managers have failed to integrate these young players into the first team effectively enough. 

 

If Arnott has taken the academy as far as it can go, then we need to look to replace him urgently. It isn't a job for life and the club needs to be able to grow and develop its competency as a good place for young players to learn their trade at.  I'll point out again that Brian McClair apparently lives in Stockbridge and ran Manchester Utds academy for close to a decade under SAF. If we could get him in that would be a real coup. 

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

Yeh.  I'm just weighing up what the point in the academy is.  It's either got to be get players good enough for the first team or get some decent money in transfers to justify the investment.

 

Apart from McKenna they've had poor fees.  They got some good performances from Jack but ultimately he left for nothing.  Didn't get anything like the value for Fraser.

 

Struggling to see the reasons to invest big in academies! Especially when we're on the doorstep of the bloated ones down south who release bags of talent every year.  Just invest in good scouts and hoover up the best of those released.

They way that I would look at it is that the standard of players emerging from the Aberdeen academy is better than that of Hearts when, in investment terms, you might expect a more equitable outcome.

 

However, Aberdeen may have a geographical advantage in terms of them being the only top side in their primary catchment area for academy kids.

[Byyy The Light]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

They way that I would look at it is that the standard of players emerging from the Aberdeen academy is better than that of Hearts when, in investment terms, you might expect a more equitable outcome.

 

However, Aberdeen may have a geographical advantage in terms of them being the only top side in their primary catchment area for academy kids.

 

The majority have moved to drop down to then get game time to move back up so Aberdeen have obviously deemed they weren't good enough for the first team at that point which is exactly the issue we seem to have.  The gap is too big unless they are exceptional and I'm not convinced any amount of coaching will make that big a difference at the end of the day.

 

You've then got others who play for a couple of seasons and move on to bigger things for free or a paltry development fee.  How do you break that cycle?  It seems that the ideology and the reality of the real world don't match up.

 

The majority of players are in the academy to make up the numbers with no real chance of making the step up but have to be there so we can field a side.  Just seems a waste of money really.  I'd rather we tried to pick up the Glen Kamara's of the world who fall out of Arsenal and the likes academy.

 

There must be plenty that go from these academies and end up in league 1 and league 2 aged 21,22 and could be the squad fillers with us until they find their feet.

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

I'd rather have seen connor smith and Harry cochrane play more for us this season 

[Ari Gold]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

(This is not aimed at you...just a rant)

 

What opportunities has he had though?

He played 22 SPL games in 2011-18, started brightly and then faded like most young players do. That's when he needs managed, not brought in for one game and dropped.

 

I hear he has physical issues or an attitude problem but that's never confirmed.

 

He had "something" about him to work on and surely could have been used in the following seasons? Instead we fund Whelan's retirement? We blow tens of thousands on Damour's contract? We bring in dross like Langer, Sibbick and Avdijaz? We couldn;t use him as back up to Lee and Bozanic (neither of whom are exactly amazing). Why does Wighton get 2 seasons of crap?

 

I don't expect Cochrane or MacDonald to be the next Mackay and Colquhoun but they could and should have been managed better to realsie what potential they had.

 

If we cannot do that then yes, we may as well close the academy.

I completely agree with you. I wasn't suggesting it was only Cochrane's fault. 

 

Levein said at the start of last season, Cochrane was the best midfielder at the club. He then signed 2 or 3 midfielders to play ahead of him. Looking back, we may have built Cochrane up too much but definitely not handled his development well enough. 

 

The same happened to Connor Smith. Thrown into to start a derby at Easter Road. He looked OK considering and has barely been seen since a season and a half later. 

[Nookie Bear]

1 minute ago, Ari Gold said:

I completely agree with you. I wasn't suggesting it was only Cochrane's fault. 

 

Levein said at the start of last season, Cochrane was the best midfielder at the club. He then signed 2 or 3 midfielders to play ahead of him. Looking back, we may have built Cochrane up too much but definitely not handled his development well enough. 

 

The same happened to Connor Smith. Thrown into to start a derby at Easter Road. He looked OK considering and has barely been seen since a season and a half later. 

 

Yes, and i just used your post as a launchpad for a rant 👍

 

Agree with you about Connor Smith as well.

 

[Ari Gold]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Yes, and i just used your post as a launchpad for a rant 👍

 

Agree with you about Connor Smith as well.

 

I think we have a habit of keeping young players on contracts who will never be good enough. Rory Currie only left hearts at the end of last season. Moore, Henderson, Brandon - it's been pretty obvious for a while they aren't going to be good enough. I don't think it benefits them in the long term as they get to around the age of 22 and have played less than 100 games. 

[Jarhead]

On 28/02/2021 at 21:55, Smith's right boot said:

There is a case for it and to scale it back. 

 

My biggest concern is the benefit to Hearts it brings. 

 

Young players who are not good enough get released after playing a handful of games and/or being on loan. Sometimes we extend to give them a chance but they don't become regulars for us or improve us. 

Some may then peak later on, but ultimately at the time they were not good enough to play for us regularly and had to leave to get game time and develop. 

 

 

The good ones, Hickey and Patterson being the best examples play a season or two, do a good job for us but then don't extend thier contract so they end up leaving for nothing or a reduced fee. So ultimately when we do get a good player the benefit to us is short term. 

 

Needs analysis but  I'm leaning towards scaling the academy back and looking at players aged between 18-22 released by bigger clubs down south and to a lesser extent the OF along with paying for players from lesser sides. 

 

Irving will be the  most recent, decent player to not sign and we won't get a fee either. 

 

I think there is something in what you say there. 
I fear people have been blinded by the Ajax model and think it can be replicated anywhere. 
If you look at the last time Scotland qualified for the World Cup, if you take out the Dundee United players, they all started at the bottom and worked their way up. Now young players start at the top and work their way down. 
With our levels of ambition do we have time to be a nursery for players with zero experience? I’m not sure we do as they will fall into two camps, either not of the required standard or be away after less than a couple of years. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

I'm not totally against it, but we've hardly proven ourselves to be effective at developing players that we bring in from outside the club either. It's more a coaching problem in my opinion. Getting rid of the academy altogether would seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Restructure it but don't get rid of it.

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

14 minutes ago, Jarhead said:

I think there is something in what you say there. 
I fear people have been blinded by the Ajax model and think it can be replicated anywhere. 
If you look at the last time Scotland qualified for the World Cup, if you take out the Dundee United players, they all started at the bottom and worked their way up. Now young players start at the top and work their way down. 
With our levels of ambition do we have time to be a nursery for players with zero experience? I’m not sure we do as they will fall into two camps, either not of the required standard or be away after less than a couple of years. 

 

I don't think this is actually too far off. No matter how effective your academy is, the likelihood of bringing through a player from schoolboy to first team player is extremely low and requires a lot of luck. As a club, we should be looking to bring in players in the 18-22 age range who are ready to play first team football with previous experience, and have room to develop further. It's unrealistic to expect boys who have only ever played boys football to be ready to play for the first team (there are obviously standouts that make the jump, but as we've proven over the last 7 years, they are few and far between).

[Armageddon]

I wonder if we would have been in a better/worse/same Championship position if we lined up, I do not understand many of our signings (Roberts, Frear, GMS and Popescu - although I know he was cover for Souttar, but don't we have academy kids?)

 

                     Gordon

    Smith  Halkett  Souttar  Kingsley

Irving  Cochrane  MacDonald  Ginnelly

            Henderson  Boyce

 

 

[Nookie Bear]

If our academy isn't producing decent products, if aberdeen's or hibs isn't, or motherwell's or dundee utd's...where are all these kids getting developed???

 

My gut feeling is that we should be looking at the players in their late teens released by EPL/Championship clubs with a view to offering them the platform to develop.

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Jarhead said:

I think there is something in what you say there. 
I fear people have been blinded by the Ajax model and think it can be replicated anywhere. 
If you look at the last time Scotland qualified for the World Cup, if you take out the Dundee United players, they all started at the bottom and worked their way up. Now young players start at the top and work their way down. 
With our levels of ambition do we have time to be a nursery for players with zero experience? I’m not sure we do as they will fall into two camps, either not of the required standard or be away after less than a couple of years. 

 

 

Agree. 

 

The players that are unique, add value to the team and would earn us money don't extend. 

 

The run of the mill players that do want to stay  need game time but aren't good enough for us  to add value at the time they are with us so in turn  don't play often enough to develop. 

 

 

Rock and a hard place. 

 

Colt team, tie up with a smaller club, tie up with a bigger club? 

 

Not sure of the answer Tbh. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

22 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

If our academy isn't producing decent products, if aberdeen's or hibs isn't, or motherwell's or dundee utd's...where are all these kids getting developed???

 

My gut feeling is that we should be looking at the players in their late teens released by EPL/Championship clubs with a view to offering them the platform to develop.

 

I agree. 

 

 

[Lfhearts]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

I agree. 

 

 

Rangers and Celtic released players, should be on our radar but probably aren't due to covid, poor scouting or combination of both.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Rather than closing the academy perhaps we should reduce the age levels. Surely having 8-13 yer olds playing is a total lottery and a waste of resources. Let them develop initially at school and boys club level then start to cherry pick the best of them at about 14 years old. 

[jamboinglasgow]

2 hours ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

I'm not totally against it, but we've hardly proven ourselves to be effective at developing players that we bring in from outside the club either. It's more a coaching problem in my opinion. Getting rid of the academy altogether would seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Restructure it but don't get rid of it.

 

Would agree, if something isn't working then simply throwing it away first is stupid. Only do that if you tried all other options. I would also point to Falkirk as warning about chucking your academy. They stopped their academy which had produced quite a few players (including our current left back) under the view that they thought it was better to spend the money on the first team to get them back up the league. They have regretted that since and now looking to re-establish it (which is mainly re-joining the academy set up with other clubs in the area.)

 

One thing I wonder if we should reduce the size of squads, put greater focus on a smaller amount of players.

 

I think its always worth having Joe Savage oversee a review of the academy to ensure its doing the best practice it can.  But I would agree with coaching being an issue, but more between academy and first team. Why are talented youngsters from the academy not able to make the step up to the first team? Are they not being coached and mentored properly? How can we get the opportunities for them to play? Etc

Edited March 2, 2021 by jamboinglasgow

[NANOJAMBO]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

If our academy isn't producing decent products, if aberdeen's or hibs isn't, or motherwell's or dundee utd's...where are all these kids getting developed???

 

My gut feeling is that we should be looking at the players in their late teens released by EPL/Championship clubs with a view to offering them the platform to develop.

I live in England and this is something me & my lad talk about regularly.

I'm often asking - where are the top kids that have been released from the bigger clubs (they aren't in L1 & 2 IMO - the football is generally dire) and I've not really seen anything in the Conference of late.

My lad played for a Centre of Excellence at a L1 club for 3 years (a very poor standard) and the only decent team I recall was Stockport Co who seemed to have hoovered up all the Man U & Man City cast offs back then. 

I came back to Brentford : they binned their academy , went to an U23 side and actively look for players with ability who've been cast off by other clubs. I think this is the route Hearts should go down.  I don't see how an academy in Scotland is going to turn out 18/19 Y O who can be thrown into the battlefield of Scottish football : it's simply asking too much. 

[Walter Kidd]

Is it any wonder that the Academy is rotten?  Levein was in charge.  Never mind his 5 year plan - he has set us back 20 years across the board.

[NANOJAMBO]

9 minutes ago, Walter Kidd said:

Is it any wonder that the Academy is rotten?  Levein was in charge.  Never mind his 5 year plan - he has set us back 20 years across the board.

I think the problem was, he wasn't. He was never properly in charge of anything and that was the problem across the whole "football dept". I think ABs comments about his lack of organisation back this up. 

[jamboinglasgow]

10 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

I live in England and this is something me & my lad talk about regularly.

I'm often asking - where are the top kids that have been released from the bigger clubs (they aren't in L1 & 2 IMO - the football is generally dire) and I've not really seen anything in the Conference of late.

My lad played for a Centre of Excellence at a L1 club for 3 years (a very poor standard) and the only decent team I recall was Stockport Co who seemed to have hoovered up all the Man U & Man City cast offs back then. 

I came back to Brentford : they binned their academy , went to an U23 side and actively look for players with ability who've been cast off by other clubs. I think this is the route Hearts should go down.  I don't see how an academy in Scotland is going to turn out 18/19 Y O who can be thrown into the battlefield of Scottish football : it's simply asking too much. 

 

I can see why people want to copy Brentford but you also have to be aware that Brentford have a lot advantages that we cant really copy up here. Biggest one is that they are based in London, so they are a lot more attractive to youngsters coming out of Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, Fulham or West Ham academies (some of the best in England) plus they have the financial backing to be able to recruit from all over Europe to find the best young players and bring them in. 

 

I also think it needs remembered that Brentford looked at where they were relative to the academies in the rest of England. They are not among the biggest, especially in their city. So rather compete on that level, they thought they would go a different way which works best for them. Hearts on the other hand should be the third biggest academy in Scotland. We should be attracting a good level of young Scottish talent and developing them into the best they can be then selling them on.

 

I do agree though we should be looking more at academy cast offs down south. I think we can provide a pathway to first team football that they wont get as much down south. Obviously at a more extreme level but look what Celtic did with Dembele. They offered him a chance to play reguarly (and European football,) Celtic were able to sign him at a fraction of what he would cost an English club due to compensation rules, and he was able to use Celtic as a springboard to go to a bigger club (and now is at the La Liga leaders, Atletico.) I would like to see us have a group of young players who are a mix of academy and promising youngsters brought in, who we are focused to develop and get into the first team. I know thats obvious but it should be our aim as we have been poor at it before now.

[Hesh]

1 hour ago, Lfhearts said:

Rangers and Celtic released players, should be on our radar but probably aren't due to covid, poor scouting or combination of both.

Happy that players not good enough for Rangers or Celtic are good enough for us?

[Hesh]

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Rather than closing the academy perhaps we should reduce the age levels. Surely having 8-13 yer olds playing is a total lottery and a waste of resources. Let them develop initially at school and boys club level then start to cherry pick the best of them at about 14 years old. 

Would go with that, that would give them 2 years before you’re looking at pro contracts 

[OTT]

14 minutes ago, Hesh said:

Happy that players not good enough for Rangers or Celtic are good enough for us?

 

Everythings relative. Celtic/ Rangers need players good to go for a title tilt immediately, avenues to the first team will be limited by multimillion pound signings. Our needs aren't as drastic, so we can afford to invest a couple years into seeing how an 18 year old develops (IMO). 

 

The best academy won't produce 11 players every season (or even 5), but some combination of a couple of the lads being bumped up from the academy plus a couple more 'cast offs' from larger clubs might be a smart way to work. 

[Cruyff]

20 minutes ago, Hesh said:

Happy that players not good enough for Rangers or Celtic are good enough for us?

Celtic released Andy Robertson and Aaron Hickey. 🤷 

[Hesh]

11 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Celtic released Andy Robertson and Aaron Hickey. 🤷 

Fair point 

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 28/02/2021 at 20:30, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Is McGill not an Academy member?

Hasn't played in the league

[Ainsley Harriott]

Is Roger Arnott still running it? Sorry ruining it? Mans a total clown 

[Last Laff]

Depends how it’s funded I suppose. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Levein was fond of playing the kids. In fact we were the polar opposite not so very far back. 

 

Just another stick to beat without any proper consideration. 

 

 

[jr ewing]

2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

Levein was fond of playing the kids. In fact we were the polar opposite not so very far back. 

 

Just another stick to beat without any proper consideration. 

 

 

Missing Scott Wilson's announcing "another academy graduate " and never see them playing again. 

[davemclaren]

7 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Is Roger Arnott still running it? Sorry ruining it? Mans a total clown 

Based on what? 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Celtic released Andy Robertson and Aaron Hickey. 🤷 

 

And turned down James McCarthy as a kid. The thing is they could have easily signed these players - now worth millions - for pennies relatively speaking before they went to England or Italy. It's like missing out on them twice 🤣

Edited March 2, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[SomethingAboutObua]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

Based on what? 

Surely can't be saying the academy is going well when we've only produced Andy Irving and contributed a bit to Hickey in the time since he took over? 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

Surely can't be saying the academy is going well when we've only produced Andy Irving and contributed a bit to Hickey in the time since he took over? 

I thought there might something more specific as to why he was a clown. 

[jambonian]

Academies are only worth it if you have top quality coaches in place. 

But going back to the past briefly, Dundee Utd for example produced loads of good players through their own boys club. The team they had in the 80s would've bagged them millions in this day and age. Even in more recent times they've produced more than most clubs. Lots of young players that started out there are now having/have had good careers. Boys clubs were the big thing to go to, not academies. We signed players from Edina Hibs, Salvasens BC, Hutchie Vale amongst others. Hibs as well. Half their players were from boys clubs. The got rid of their academy i think yet they're sitting in third place in the Premier. Concentrating on bringing players in and not wasting money on an academy with little chance of success with it. 

If Hearts want to take their academy seriously, maybe it's time to bring in a coach or two from the likes of Holland or France, as our lot can't seem to get much of a tune out of the youngsters. They seem to reach a level and then it all stops for them. Something has to give....get the right coaches in or scrap the academy altogether.

Come to think of it, i haven't heard about boys clubs like Salvasen's etc. for quite a few years now. Are they even still on the go?

Edited March 3, 2021 by jambonian

[Ainsley Harriott]

10 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Based on what? 

Stories from a close friend that spent a  number of years working for hearts. Also backed up by Anthony Macdonald's recent interview 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Stories from a close friend that spent a  number of years working for hearts. Also backed up by Anthony Macdonald's recent interview 

Would be good if you could share the stories 

[OTT]

2 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Stories from a close friend that spent a  number of years working for hearts. Also backed up by Anthony Macdonald's recent interview 

 

Can you share the interview? Not sure I've saw that yet and a quick google hasn't thrown up much criticism of the academy. 

 

FWIW, I think Arnotts position should be under scrutiny. 1 player in 7 years making a successful transition from academy to first team frankly isn't good enough and begs further investigation IMO. 

[Cruyff]

Anthony McDonald played as a number 10 and was looking like a shit hot prospect. When we sold Walker, Levein and Arnott decided to move him onto the wing as a potential replacement for Walker and it was a position he didn't want to play or feel comfortable. That was the jist of it from the Anthony McDonald interview. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

10 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Anthony McDonald played as a number 10 and was looking like a shit hot prospect. When we sold Walker, Levein and Arnott decided to move him onto the wing as a potential replacement for Walker and it was a position he didn't want to play or feel comfortable. That was the jist of it from the Anthony McDonald interview. 

 

Can see where he's coming from but he should have been happy to get in the team at all at the age he was at. And we didn't even play with a real number 10 at the time.

[Cruyff]

2 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

Can see where he's coming from but he should have been happy to get in the team at all at the age he was at. And we didn't even play with a real number 10 at the time.

Here's all the quotes:

 

He did say this - 

 

“I know it was difficult because of the age I broke through at and wanting more at my age was probably a bit selfish, but that’s how I was. I wanted more, I wanted to play every week at a good level.”

 

“I can understand where it came from with Harry because he broke through at 16 and started nearly every game. It got to a point when Levein did pull him and said ‘right, that’s you for the rest of the season, we don’t want to burn you out’ and Harry understood that.

 

“For me, it was all sub appearances so I was raring to go. I wanted to play as much as possible but I can understand what coaches mean when they don’t want to burn young players out. It’s completely different when you play in a first team environment.”

 

On Arnott - 

 

"I prefer playing in the number ten position,” he said. “When Jamie Walker left to go to Wigan I was about 15 and I started getting plated out wide and I was fuming.

 

“I asked the coaches if I could go back to my position because I was enjoying my football, I was playing well and I hated playing wide at that time.

 

“Roger Arnott, the head of youth said to me ‘listen Jamie Walker is leaving as we see you as his replacement’ and I was like ‘aw you’re joking, I want to play in the ten!’ but obviously I was buzzing with that and I came to terms with it.”

 

On Levein and going on loan - 

 

“I was angry that he wanted me out on loan,” he said. “I felt like I was ready to play. Even with the reserves, I was scoring nigh on every game, I was playing well and it was the best I’ve felt in the past few years.

 

“I was really disappointed when he told me I was going out on loan. You can say it was greedy but I don’t think so. I think I was ready to compete for a place in the team.”

 

On Stendel - 

 

“Everything with Stendel was 100 mile per hour," he said. "Pressure, running, pressure running. If you can get it right, it’s unreal.

 

“The game at Easter Road that we won 3-1 and the two Rangers games at home, we got that right and the results obviously speak for themselves.

 

“Maybe the language barrier was sometimes difficult but you could tell he was a very, very good coach.”

[Hesh]

This is a bit from the Courier today in a bit about the Utd academy

 

But with the well-funded Tannadice academy project now kicking into high gear, Bond is hopeful the club will soon be rewarded for their commitment to youth development.

“It was never a long-term strategy (to run wages to turnover at a high level). That couldn’t be a strategy for anybody,” he explained.

“It was a mixture of one-off costs coming into the club, a deliberate investment in the squad and also the academy.

“The academy was so badly run and under-invested. A big increase in the wage bill has been the academy – part-time and full-time coaches, medical people

“We’ve very quickly got the academy up to elite status, which is almost unheard of. We’re up punching with Rangers and Celtic in terms of young players.

“Look at the players coming out of there now. If you sell one of those every year, the academy has paid for itself.

“We’ve had 10 academy graduates make debuts this season. That’s the fact a lot of people miss.

 

 

“The investment in the academy has probably been five to six-hundred-thousand pounds. And that’s not a one-off cost, that’s an annual investment.

“We’ve deliberately, even through Covid, kept the place going. Some of the guys are working flexi-furlough but they’re still in working with the boys.

“That’s a hugely, hugely important part of the club.

“But when your turnover is down and you’re investing in the academy without getting an immediate return, it’s obviously going to be reflected in the accounts.”

 

sounds like they are still training 

 

[Gambo]

The whole football side of club needs a massive reboot, not just the Academy.

 

We cannot be looking to bring promising youth through the academy only for them to have 'football' sucked right out of them when they hit the first team.

 

RN is not the person to be overlooking/ involved with that reboot.

 

[OTT]

11 minutes ago, Gambo said:

The whole football side of club needs a massive reboot, not just the Academy.

 

We cannot be looking to bring promising youth through the academy only for them to have 'football' sucked right out of them when they hit the first team.

 

RN is not the person to be overlooking/ involved with that reboot.

 

 

I agree. If we want to be a club where youth development is positive, I think we need to pivot from looking for academy players to fit in with the first team to the first team fitting and playing in a way which follows the principles developed at academy level. I think its very fair to say that the youth players we have developed in the past have been at a higher standard than players we can bring in, Jamie Walker, Callum Paterson, Sam Nicholson, Billy King & Andy Irving, all being good examples. We saw a lot of promise from Cochrane early on, but was noted as spending most of the game watching the ball being shelled back and forth over his head. 

 

We need a head coach who is sympathetic to the academy and will look to promote those players before even considering looking at the transfer market. We're not a club that can afford to buy the finished article, so if we want to raise our own standards, I believe we need to actively push our academy lads into the first team. We're going to for a while be inconsistent, but I firmly believe that if the fans can see progress in what we're trying to achieve and it is properly communicated then we will be more than understanding, provided our senior players are stepping up. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

2 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Here's all the quotes:

 

He did say this - 

 

“I know it was difficult because of the age I broke through at and wanting more at my age was probably a bit selfish, but that’s how I was. I wanted more, I wanted to play every week at a good level.”

 

“I can understand where it came from with Harry because he broke through at 16 and started nearly every game. It got to a point when Levein did pull him and said ‘right, that’s you for the rest of the season, we don’t want to burn you out’ and Harry understood that.

 

“For me, it was all sub appearances so I was raring to go. I wanted to play as much as possible but I can understand what coaches mean when they don’t want to burn young players out. It’s completely different when you play in a first team environment.”

 

On Arnott - 

 

"I prefer playing in the number ten position,” he said. “When Jamie Walker left to go to Wigan I was about 15 and I started getting plated out wide and I was fuming.

 

“I asked the coaches if I could go back to my position because I was enjoying my football, I was playing well and I hated playing wide at that time.

 

“Roger Arnott, the head of youth said to me ‘listen Jamie Walker is leaving as we see you as his replacement’ and I was like ‘aw you’re joking, I want to play in the ten!’ but obviously I was buzzing with that and I came to terms with it.”

 

On Levein and going on loan - 

 

“I was angry that he wanted me out on loan,” he said. “I felt like I was ready to play. Even with the reserves, I was scoring nigh on every game, I was playing well and it was the best I’ve felt in the past few years.

 

“I was really disappointed when he told me I was going out on loan. You can say it was greedy but I don’t think so. I think I was ready to compete for a place in the team.”

 

On Stendel - 

 

“Everything with Stendel was 100 mile per hour," he said. "Pressure, running, pressure running. If you can get it right, it’s unreal.

 

“The game at Easter Road that we won 3-1 and the two Rangers games at home, we got that right and the results obviously speak for themselves.

 

“Maybe the language barrier was sometimes difficult but you could tell he was a very, very good coach.”

 

He's absolutely spot on that he was ready for a first team place last season. He played in a friendly (might have been a league cup game) against Cowdenbeath and was our best player. A couple weeks later he was punted out on loan. All too often that's been happening with our young players that the answer is just to 'get them games' at a shite level when they would be far better off playing in our own team. They're hardly worse than the dross that's played for us over the last few years.

[Cruyff]

14 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

He's absolutely spot on that he was ready for a first team place last season. He played in a friendly (might have been a league cup game) against Cowdenbeath and was our best player. A couple weeks later he was punted out on loan. All too often that's been happening with our young players that the answer is just to 'get them games' at a shite level when they would be far better off playing in our own team. They're hardly worse than the dross that's played for us over the last few years.

Yep, loaning youngsters out seems to now be convenient or the 'done thing' when it isn't always necessary or necessarily the right thing to do. 

 

Perhaps giving a young player a chance to play against senior players in training, give them game time and make them feel part of the group will let them understand what the standard or expectation is. It might make them work harder and make them to raise their game to get into the first team. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Yep, loaning youngsters out seems to now be convenient or the 'done thing' when it isn't always necessary or necessarily the right thing to do. 

 

Perhaps giving a young player a chance to play against senior players in training, give them game time and make them feel part of the group will let them understand what the standard or expectation is. It might make them work harder and make them to raise their game to get into the first team. 

 

100%. It's especially apparent when they claim that academy graduates should at least provide squad depth, but then when we have our inevitable injuries and the opportunities arise for these guys to play, they're out on loan in League 2. Cammy Logan is a good example of that this season. I'm yet to see a player go away on loan to lower league club and come back a better player. I think this is one of the main reasons that players can't seem to bridge the gap between the youth team and the first team; as soon as they get a sniff, they get farmed out.

[jambonian]

3 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Here's all the quotes:

 

He did say this - 

 

“I know it was difficult because of the age I broke through at and wanting more at my age was probably a bit selfish, but that’s how I was. I wanted more, I wanted to play every week at a good level.”

 

“I can understand where it came from with Harry because he broke through at 16 and started nearly every game. It got to a point when Levein did pull him and said ‘right, that’s you for the rest of the season, we don’t want to burn you out’ and Harry understood that.

 

“For me, it was all sub appearances so I was raring to go. I wanted to play as much as possible but I can understand what coaches mean when they don’t want to burn young players out. It’s completely different when you play in a first team environment.”

 

On Arnott - 

 

"I prefer playing in the number ten position,” he said. “When Jamie Walker left to go to Wigan I was about 15 and I started getting plated out wide and I was fuming.

 

“I asked the coaches if I could go back to my position because I was enjoying my football, I was playing well and I hated playing wide at that time.

 

“Roger Arnott, the head of youth said to me ‘listen Jamie Walker is leaving as we see you as his replacement’ and I was like ‘aw you’re joking, I want to play in the ten!’ but obviously I was buzzing with that and I came to terms with it.”

 

On Levein and going on loan - 

 

“I was angry that he wanted me out on loan,” he said. “I felt like I was ready to play. Even with the reserves, I was scoring nigh on every game, I was playing well and it was the best I’ve felt in the past few years.

 

“I was really disappointed when he told me I was going out on loan. You can say it was greedy but I don’t think so. I think I was ready to compete for a place in the team.”

 

On Stendel - 

 

“Everything with Stendel was 100 mile per hour," he said. "Pressure, running, pressure running. If you can get it right, it’s unreal.

 

“The game at Easter Road that we won 3-1 and the two Rangers games at home, we got that right and the results obviously speak for themselves.

 

“Maybe the language barrier was sometimes difficult but you could tell he was a very, very good coach.”

 

Interesting stuff. 

A lot of what McDonald had said was what a lot of folk were thinking. For the past few years i've questioned the coaching (not just young players but all of them) and said that young players get so far then their development stops. McDonald was clearly unhappy at being made into a number 7 so what he said hasn't surprised me. I also remember Levein being questioned on why McDonald wasn't getting many games and his reply was "he needs to learn to defend!" Why!? He's an attacker! Colquhoun never defended when he was in the same team as Levein so it's a load of bull. 

So reading between the lines....McDonald wasn't happy at being moved from a 10. He asked the coaches if he could move back to a 10 then Levein says he's going out on loan. Stories have came out on players questioning Levein's tactics/coaching. The Olly Lee situation when he told the media that Lee was homesick, only to read a couple of months later in Lee's interview in the media that he had asked Levein about the team set-up/tactics and was promptly told to find another club. In otherwords....don't question Levein or you're out the door. Makes you wonder about all the Vanacek stuff as well.

I do agree that you have to be wary about burn-out with young players but there's a way to go about it. Introduce them from the bench initially then give them a few games. After that, put them back on the bench with a few appearances to go with it. Not just "right, that's you not playing again this season" type-stuff. Cochrane must've been miffed.

On another note...good to read that McDonald could tell Stendel was a very good coach. All very interesting.