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jamboinglasgow
1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.

 

Completely agree. I think we panicked and went for as much experience as possible, and now finding out that experienced players doesn't automatically mean performance.

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8 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.


I completely wholeheartedly agree.

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jamboinglasgow
Just now, Footballfirst said:

No need. I'm already my own favourite poster. 🤣

 

I know, every time I met you at youth games you wore a badge saying "Kickbacks Top poster." 😛

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Bazzas right boot
3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.

 

 

 

Only if they are good enough, Irving our best Youngster hasn't really stood out consistently so there is no evidence to suggest other young players would add anything or do better than we are. 

 

Playing a player just because they are young is pointless. 

Winning the league is the priority this season, not experimenting with young players. 

Age is irrelevant, best players best position, academy or otherwise imo. 

 

 

 

 

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Guest ToqueJambo
1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.

 

Definitely. Of the players I've seen play for the first team briefly or have heard about, I would have liked us to try to involve Hamilton at CD or DM, unless he really is too wee, McGill, Cochrane or Smith in midfield and Tony MacDonald as a winger. I guess we included Moore, Henderson, Brandon and Irving as the "youngsters". Are there others you know of who maybe could have done a job?

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Having some form of youth development should be a stipulation to being part of the top level leagues. 
 

spfl/SFA should demand this to try to improve Scottish football. More clubs closing academies could have long term detrimental effects on our national team. 

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Just now, allystrachan said:

Having some form of youth development should be a stipulation to being part of the top level leagues. 
 

spfl/SFA should demand this to try to improve Scottish football. More clubs closing academies could have long term detrimental effects on our national team. 

Then they should help pay for it.

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1 hour ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

Robbie has dropped a bollock with young players this season IMO.

 

Ideal time to play them this season. If not now when?

 

The only “plus” at the end of last season and nowhere in a season of mediocrity this year. 
 

Im disappointed in Robbie more than the academy about this.

This for me too.   Surely playing in the Championship is perfect to bring in some younger players and give them some much needed game time.   Also really disappointed in RN not supporting Harings return to fitness this season and leaving him wasting away in the bench.   The odd 20 minutes would surely have supported him physically and psychologically after being out for so long.    Tbh,  I find it all quite bizarre.   

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17 minutes ago, DS98 said:


The entire youth team? Are these sessions being carried out via the club or is he doing it independently and charging?

Hold on the now I'll away and ask him if he's charging people 😂 he runs camps and does 1-1 sessions. 

 

And how many players are doing it. 

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59 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

This. 

 

It seems that League 1, 2 and Championship clubs have no need for an Academy when they have us to develop players for them. 

 

It's very sad that so much emphasis has been placed on promoting youth and state of the art facilities, yet we are producing no more young players than what we have in the past. 

 

Use it or lose it imo. 


the whole object of putting players out on loan is to give them experience very few will have played against or maybe even trained with ‘men’. They show the basic skill, give them a chance to play in a league 1 or 2 setting, bring them back, start playing them, it seems the latter that we have a problem with.

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1 hour ago, DS98 said:

Might have something to do with youth team players not allowed to train with the first team. The u18/20’s haven’t trained this year. 

100% this 

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Not too difficult to see why Robbie hasn't invested in youth. He's under immense pressure, and has been since day one, to get results. Playing youth requires an element of patience from supporters, and an acceptance that things will go wrong from time to time. Too many of our fans are far too critical to allow us to be a team that invests in youth.

 

Robbie is no stranger to giving youth a chance. Walker, King and McHattie for example, he gave youth a shot at United too.

 

Also worth noting too, that the younger age groups aren't training or playing just now. Part of a youngsters development is obviously training and playing with the first team, but still playing at their own age level to monitor their own improvement and stay somewhat grounded. Maybe the circumstances we're in at the moment are hindering youth development? Is any team in Scotland giving huge game time to their youngsters?

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57 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Real shame for the boys at a crucial stage of their careers. At least we've found loans for some of them.

Yes, but to teams in leagues that are suspended. 

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Footballfirst
17 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Then they should help pay for it.

The SFA does contribute, particularly to the eight elite academies, of which Hearts is one.

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Guest ToqueJambo
Just now, soonbe110 said:

Yes, but to teams in leagues that are suspended. 

 

Yeah, needlessly suspended. The SPFL and SFA once again making terrible decisions that damage careers. I bet they haven't given a second's thought to the impact on the youngsters  at these clubs.

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47 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

 

Have they trained as a team? Are they playing matches? Do we just throw in a 16 year old with zero games of any sort under his belt? A decision has clearly been made to give the better youngsters games on loan rather than have them on the bench with the odd appearance or worse just training? I would have liked us to give Smith, McGill and/or Cochrane opportunities ahead of someone like Halliday mind you if possible.

 

Note: https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results and https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results. no reserve games or league and no U18s games or league.

 

Yep, some on here suggesting we recall Logan from Cove because Smith is injured.  They don’t realise he hasn’t played a competitive football match since Feb 2020. Might be wrong but playing a 19 year-old now without any football for a year could be a certain career ending event. 

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This does make me question Robbie's coaching ability. It seems he'd rather sign players who should be pretty much the finished product, hence the average age of the team he fields.

 

It is bizarre he hasn't used youth. While the club is trying to save costs during a pandemic would seem a sensible time to sign less and look to the academy.

 

Edited by kila
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20 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Then they should help pay for it.

Don't they already contribute to our Academy due to it meeting their "Elite Performance" (or whatever they call it) standard ?

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30 minutes ago, DS98 said:


The entire youth team? Are these sessions being carried out via the club or is he doing it independently and charging?

At one stage this season they were training in groups of six but only getting one 2 hour session per week at times like 6pm on a Friday.  Strict limits on how many clubs could have in their first team bubbles earlier in the season 

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Guest ToqueJambo
4 minutes ago, Hesh said:

A mate shared this with me about the set up at Dundee Utd Academy, putting the club to one side I though it made interesting reading about the focus on their academy 

https://ne98.net/2021/02/20/im-not-going-to-settle-for-second-best-im-not-going-to-settle-for-good-ne98-speak-to-dundee-united-academy-director-andy-goldie/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Producing talent consistently seems to be the challenge for every academy. Players often seem to come through in waves.

 

Same with giving players a pathway to the first team and making them regulars. That article highlights Chris Mochrie for being D Utd's youngest debutant but since that debut in 2019 he's had 5 appearances and is now on loan at Montrose. Sounds like a less good Harry Cochrane.

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Surely we are close to the point whereby questions have to be asked about the Academy strategy. 5-6 years in and I understand by the very nature of an Academy the success can’t be judged on a 2-3 year period but there has been long enough for Leveins original plan to be implemented and either the players coming through aren’t good enough or management have little interest in using Academy players.

 

Players have to be good enough and debuts can’t be given out just to justify the wish to bring through home grown players and everyone knows it is very hard to bring through more than 1-2 players a season and the failure rate is huge but as other posters have said what a season to bring them in (folk can try and make out this league is competitive but the standard is dire, evidenced by the fact the closest teams such as Raith and Dunfermline can’t string two wins in a row together). However if you are a young player sitting on at watching the likes of Frear, Roberts and Popescu every week it must become demoralising.

 

I don’t think Neilson has any interest in bringing through youth players, I may be proven wrong and he can point to the need to get promoted and Covid impacting how many youth players can train but there becomes an argument for following the Brentford model if the Academy is not going to be utilised (not my preference as I want to see 2-3 home grown players breaking through each season).

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Seen a stat on Twitter that we’ve had the second oldest average starting 11 this season average 29 year old

 

from Pie and Bovril

 

SPFL Championship
Avg Age of Players Used
20/21 Season 
As at 16/02

Arbroath 29.3
Hearts 29.2
Alloa 29.1
Dundee 28.1
Inverness CT 26.0
Dunfermline 26.0
QoS 25.8
Morton 25.4
Raith Rovers 25.2
Ayr Utd 25.1

Edited by gaza_1986
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Guest ToqueJambo
3 minutes ago, kila said:

This does make me question Robbie's coaching ability. It seems he'd rather sign players who should be pretty much the finished product, hence the average age of the team he fields.

 

It is bizarre he hasn't used youth. While the club is trying to save costs during a pandemic would seem a sensible time to sign less and look to the academy.

 

 

 

Robbie was our U20s coach and I think did a similar job at D Utd. He'll know very well how important young players are and what makes a youngster first team worthy. He's been on that journey of being loaned out, etc himself. I definitely would have liked us to keep McDonald instead of Roberts or Frear and McGill/Smith/Cochrane instead of signing Halliday.

 

But it's a short season so maybe the pandemic circumstances have played a part and we've gone for experience. Neilson was certainly never shy of giving kids a chance as Hearts manager before. To a fault in some cases as I think he put too much faith in Jack Hamilton too early. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
2 minutes ago, sr2008 said:

Surely we are close to the point whereby questions have to be asked about the Academy strategy. 5-6 years in and I understand by the very nature of an Academy the success can’t be judged on a 2-3 year period but there has been long enough for Leveins original plan to be implemented and either the players coming through aren’t good enough or management have little interest in using Academy players.

 

Players have to be good enough and debuts can’t be given out just to justify the wish to bring through home grown players and everyone knows it is very hard to bring through more than 1-2 players a season and the failure rate is huge but as other posters have said what a season to bring them in (folk can try and make out this league is competitive but the standard is dire, evidenced by the fact the closest teams such as Raith and Dunfermline can’t string two wins in a row together). However if you are a young player sitting on at watching the likes of Frear, Roberts and Popescu every week it must become demoralising.

 

I don’t think Neilson has any interest in bringing through youth players, I may be proven wrong and he can point to the need to get promoted and Covid impacting how many youth players can train but there becomes an argument for following the Brentford model if the Academy is not going to be utilised (not my preference as I want to see 2-3 home grown players breaking through each season).

 

Robbie brought through and played many young players in his first spell with us, including promoting Jack Hamilton to No. 1 when it seemed to most of us he wasn't ready for that responsibility. This year, Irving has been a mainstay and Henderson has had quite a few opportunities.

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3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Yep, some on here suggesting we recall Logan from Cove because Smith is injured.  They don’t realise he hasn’t played a competitive football match since Feb 2020. Might be wrong but playing a 19 year-old now without any football for a year could be a certain career ending event. 

Yes, but apparently loaned-out players can't be recalled to play a part for their parent club despite these L1/L2 clubs not having a league to play in - the SPFL suspended it back in September, and there seems  zero chance of it being allowed to restart before the summer.  That decision alone seems to be contributing to the stalling of our young players.    Not all Robbie's fault.

 

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4 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Yep, some on here suggesting we recall Logan from Cove because Smith is injured.  They don’t realise he hasn’t played a competitive football match since Feb 2020. Might be wrong but playing a 19 year-old now without any football for a year could be a certain career ending event. 

How long had Kastaneer not played for before he joined us, the last time nando had played before joining us was the 25th of December. 

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4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

 

Producing talent consistently seems to be the challenge for every academy. Players often seem to come through in waves.

 

Same with giving players a pathway to the first team and making them regulars. That article highlights Chris Mochrie for being D Utd's youngest debutant but since that debut in 2019 he's had 5 appearances and is now on loan at Montrose. Sounds like a less good Harry Cochrane.

A less good Harry Cochrane? I know a couple of Montrose players. The general consensus is Mochrie could be very good. Cochrane not so much. 

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2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Robbie brought through and played many young players in his first spell with us, including promoting Jack Hamilton to No. 1 when it seemed to most of us he wasn't ready for that responsibility. This year, Irving has been a mainstay and Henderson has had quite a few opportunities.

That’s all true and it makes me question why he isn’t given younger players a chance this time. He may think those coming through aren’t as good as those in his first spell but you could argue it’s a worse league this time round and therefore more scope to play them.

 

I wouldn’t agree on Henderson, the odd 20 mins isn’t getting an opportunity, you need to give a guy a run of games (as Irving has had) and Henderson is a good example, plays in a similar position to the likes of Frear and Roberts and surely can’t be a worse option based on what those two have contributed?

 

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20 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Hold on the now I'll away and ask him if he's charging people 😂 he runs camps and does 1-1 sessions. 

 

And how many players are doing it. 


So when I said the youth team aren’t allowed with the first team or train, you used this guys 1 on 1 sessions as proof I was lying.

 

Yet you have no idea if it’s affiliated with the club and how many players are taking part?

 

You’re a weird guy.

 

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9 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

Robbie was our U20s coach and I think did a similar job at D Utd. He'll know very well how important young players are and what makes a youngster first team worthy. He's been on that journey of being loaned out, etc himself. I definitely would have liked us to keep McDonald instead of Roberts or Frear and McGill/Smith/Cochrane instead of signing Halliday.

 

But it's a short season so maybe the pandemic circumstances have played a part and we've gone for experience. Neilson was certainly never shy of giving kids a chance as Hearts manager before. To a fault in some cases as I think he put too much faith in Jack Hamilton too early. 

 

He was U20s coach at Hearts for 6 months. I don't think he's worked with youth anywhere else.

 

And given Levein's influence the first time around, any youth Robbie did put in the squad probably wasn't always entirely his choice.

 

I'm just not convinced by Neilson to develop players. Why is it they gradually turn to shit? The player turnover has been ridiculous... it's like they'll just replace them if they can't train themselves to the required standard. Yet we're to keep blaming the players for underperforming apparently.

 

Edited by kila
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6 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

How long had Kastaneer not played for before he joined us, the last time nando had played before joining us was the 25th of December. 

So Nando hadn’t played for a month. Your point???

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7 minutes ago, DS98 said:


So when I said the youth team aren’t allowed with the first team or train, you used this guys 1 on 1 sessions as proof I was lying.

 

Yet you have no idea if it’s affiliated with the club and how many players are taking part?

 

You’re a weird guy.

 


No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

 

Was what you said ^ which isn't true. 

 

They have trained together this year ☺. 

 

And get regular 1-1 training in small groups ☺. 

 

If we want to recall a player that's out on loan we can do so, as far as I'm aware did Hearts not do testing etc?. 

 

Could be wrong. 

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Byyy The Light

+1 for scrapping the academy.

 

create regional academies funded by SFA and clubs in that region. Get paid coaches in schools running proper school football to identify talent.

 

Run summer football leagues for the academies playing against each other so we have something to watch over the summer months.

 

Start a draft system like in US to spread the talent across the league and get players game time. Will never happen but would help the game from top to bottom.

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3 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:


No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

 

Was what you said ^ which isn't true. 

 

They have trained together this year ☺. 

 

And get regular 1-1 training in small groups ☺. 

 

If we want to recall a player that's out on loan we can do so, as far as I'm aware did Hearts not do testing etc?. 

 

Could be wrong. 

Correct, you are wrong 

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18 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Budge is a failure.

It's Stendel who failed.  Ffs  he had a whole 6 months to improve things and failed.  You can't criticise Budge for only being in charge for 7 years. 

Hate to tell you but next season is a write off as well. 

We are fecked until she leaves.  

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57 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

 

Only if they are good enough, Irving our best Youngster hasn't really stood out consistently so there is no evidence to suggest other young players would add anything or do better than we are. 

 

Playing a player just because they are young is pointless. 

Winning the league is the priority this season, not experimenting with young players. 

Age is irrelevant, best players best position, academy or otherwise imo. 

 

 

 

 

If they are not good enough to play in the Championship as squad players or even first choice players, does that not suggest that the Academy has failed? 🤔 

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14 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

So Nando hadn’t played for a month. Your point???

Your point that someone hadn't played for a year, how do you think you get players match fit etc your trying to make an excuse as to why Robbie won't use youth, it's pure and utter bollocks, Paterson at Rangers, Welsh at Celtic. 

 

Did Celtic not play half a youth team against Hibs 🤔

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43 minutes ago, Hesh said:


the whole object of putting players out on loan is to give them experience very few will have played against or maybe even trained with ‘men’. They show the basic skill, give them a chance to play in a league 1 or 2 setting, bring them back, start playing them, it seems the latter that we have a problem with.

I'm not talking about this season or putting players out on loan mate.

 

We seem to produce players that are only good enough for other clubs in league 1,2 and the championship, rather than for our own first team. It defeats the purpose and it cost us money. 

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Bazzas right boot
4 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If they are not good enough to play in the Championship as squad players or even first choice players, does that not suggest that the Academy has failed? 🤔 

 

Yeah, it would mean it's failing atm, unless there are young  guys in the pipeline. 

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5 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I'm not talking about this season or putting players out on loan mate.

 

We seem to produce players that are only good enough for other clubs in league 1,2 and the championship, rather than for our own first team. It defeats the purpose and it cost us money. 

👍

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6 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Yeah, it would mean it's failing atm, unless there are young  guys in the pipeline. 

But will they ever get a chance? 

 

The likes of Walker, Paterson, Holt, Nicholson etc.. May never have played at a decent level had we not been forced to play them during the admin season. 

 

Every good youngster that has come through has generally been given that opportunity through a lack of depth in the first team, an injury to a first team player or pure necessity. 

 

Now it seems that type of route to the first team, their chance, is blocked because we chose to sign and stockpile players. 

 

This season granted, there is an exception due to covid but in previous seasons that has been the case. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
48 minutes ago, Ari Gold said:

A less good Harry Cochrane? I know a couple of Montrose players. The general consensus is Mochrie could be very good. Cochrane not so much. 

 

No idea. Fact is Cochrane played a good run of games in the first team and made more of an impact than Mochrie at the same age. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
46 minutes ago, kila said:

 

He was U20s coach at Hearts for 6 months. I don't think he's worked with youth anywhere else.

 

And given Levein's influence the first time around, any youth Robbie did put in the squad probably wasn't always entirely his choice.

 

I'm just not convinced by Neilson to develop players. Why is it they gradually turn to shit? The player turnover has been ridiculous... it's like they'll just replace them if they can't train themselves to the required standard. Yet we're to keep blaming the players for underperforming apparently.

 

 

 

Clearly some people want to blame Neilson for everything and give him credit for nothing  🤣 It's getting beyond a joke. 

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2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

Clearly some people want to blame Neilson for everything and give him credit for nothing  🤣 It's getting beyond a joke. 

 

Do you think he'll start fielding more youth and developing players next season?

 

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Bazzas right boot
19 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

But will they ever get a chance? 

 

The likes of Walker, Paterson, Holt, Nicholson etc.. May never have played at a decent level had we not been forced to play them during the admin season. 

 

Every good youngster that has come through has generally been given that opportunity through a lack of depth in the first team, an injury to a first team player or pure necessity. 

 

Now it seems that type of route to the first team, their chance, is blocked because we chose to sign and stockpile players. 

 

This season granted, there is an exception due to covid but in previous seasons that has been the case. 

 

 

Agree, but I think youth has had a chance and will in the future. 

 

The question fir me is the investment in the academy worth it and helping us improve. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
34 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Your point that someone hadn't played for a year, how do you think you get players match fit etc your trying to make an excuse as to why Robbie won't use youth, it's pure and utter bollocks, Paterson at Rangers, Welsh at Celtic. 

 

Did Celtic not play half a youth team against Hibs 🤔

 

You are right, Celtic did not play half a youth team. They gave a debut to one young player and played another young defender who was already in the first team squad, that was it. Their goalie had already played against us in the cup final and in Europe. 

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Guest ToqueJambo
6 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Do you think he'll start fielding more youth and developing players next season?

 

 

Certainly hope so. If we have them and they're good enough he'll play them. He gave a lot of chances to young players in his first spell with us. Of course if he does that and we play badly he'll be criticised for putting too much faith in youth as he was with Jack Hamilton! Honestly don't think he can win with some people.

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