Close the academy

[robbogoal]

Seen a post on Twitter saying hearts haven’t given a single minute to any teenager this season (in the league). 

Was saying to someone the other day Hearts would be as well closing the academy down. 

That is in no way a dig at the people involved in it as they honestly do a great job recruiting top potential & developing them but there’s no point ploughing so much £ into it for the young players to be constantly overlooked or punted on (often on frees) whilst we sign poorer journeymen in their place.

There’s some great talent there but they’ll simply not be given an opportunity to show what they can do so we’d be better investing whatever is spent on the academy into the first team.

[Bongo 1874]

1 minute ago, robbogoal said:

Seen a post on Twitter saying hearts haven’t given a single minute to any teenager this season (in the league). 

Was saying to someone the other day Hearts would be as well closing the academy down. 

That is in no way a dig at the people involved in it as they honestly do a great job recruiting top potential & developing them but there’s no point ploughing so much £ into it for the young players to be constantly overlooked or punted on (often on frees) whilst we sign poorer journeymen in their place.

There’s some great talent there but they’ll simply not be given an opportunity to show what they can do so we’d be better investing whatever is spent on the academy into the first team.

You will get stick for this in 5.4.3.2.1!.

 

 

 

 

[GinRummy]

I’d like to see how much it’s cost, how much we’ve made in transfer fees from youth players. An estimate of how much we’ve saved in wages and transfer fees by playing young guys in the first team. Then I’ll be able to reach an informed conclusion. Until then, I’d prefer it to stay open.

[Bongo 1874]

Quite remarkable really when we have the best training facilities and youth in Scotland. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Is McGill not an Academy member?

[jamboinglasgow]

4 minutes ago, robbogoal said:

Seen a post on Twitter saying hearts haven’t given a single minute to any teenager this season (in the league). 

Was saying to someone the other day Hearts would be as well closing the academy down. 

That is in no way a dig at the people involved in it as they honestly do a great job recruiting top potential & developing them but there’s no point ploughing so much £ into it for the young players to be constantly overlooked or punted on (often on frees) whilst we sign poorer journeymen in their place.

There’s some great talent there but they’ll simply not be given an opportunity to show what they can do so we’d be better investing whatever is spent on the academy into the first team.

 

I completely agree with you (in regards to lack of game time rather than closing the academy which I know your being factious to make a point.)

 

I have been surprised that we have not given a single teenager a minute in the league this season. We have the second highest average age of a team in the league. One thing I would say is that had the Championship made the bizzare decision to only have 3 subs when every other SPFL league allows 5, then I am sure we would see more teenagers but still think Robbie deserves questioning about it.

 

I do see there was a plan this season, to get youngsters game time who could break through next season. But covid has put pay to that with L1 and L2 and lowland league being stopped. But too many experienced players are not pulling their weight in the team so the energy of younger players can make a difference. 

[One five]

I would so like to see more of the youth get a chance obviously not at the send time, I thought McGill looked a good player but never seen him since.

I’ve said in previous posts we should be producing more good players with the academy we have .

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It would be good to see some proper analysis of the value for money we’re getting from the academy. Doesn’t feel like much but these things can be difficult to gauge.

[jr ewing]

24 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I’d like to see how much it’s cost, how much we’ve made in transfer fees from youth players. An estimate of how much we’ve saved in wages and transfer fees by playing young guys in the first team. Then I’ll be able to reach an informed conclusion. Until then, I’d prefer it to stay open.

Over 800k a year. 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

Robbie has dropped a bollock with young players this season IMO.

 

Ideal time to play them this season. If not now when?

 

The only “plus” at the end of last season and nowhere in a season of mediocrity this year. 
 

Im disappointed in Robbie more than the academy about this.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Tom Hardy’s Dug

[The Hogfather]

22 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Is McGill not an Academy member?

 

Not been seen since the BetFred Cup. Not one minute of football for a teenager in the league.

[OTT]

Obviously I totally disagree but a point needs to be highlighted here about Neilsons total reluctance to give youth a chance. Lewis Moore is a good example, despite us being relegated he finished the season on a high and Stendel seemed to instil a good bit of confidence in the laddie. The first thing Neilson does is sign him out of the team with total guff like Frear and Roberts. What makes this so distasteful is that when it became apparent neither was good enough he still wouldn't give Moore a chance to prove him wrong. Its utterly boneheaded and arrogant IMO. Anthony McDonald being allowed to leave the club, who again was starting to look like he could play a role under Stendel was another negative move against our Academy kids. 

 

Its very apparent that Neilson has little to no interest in developing young talent at this club, and I think that is totally in contrast to what I believe our goals as a club should be. Neilson claimed to be a big proponent of youth but just like Levein that is nothing but empty words as his actions have shown that. In his first spell, every young player we used had been blooded in 2013 season under Gary Locke, so again, he can't claim any credit for that. 

 

Robbie Neilson will not add any value to our club and should be chased off in the summer and someone who is genuinely committed to youth should be signed up to actually integrate the academy into the first team. However, if Ann decides to learn nothing from Levein and stick by Robbie, there is a legitimate point to be made about why we are even bothering about the academy. Its a total disgrace. Lads like Logan, Smith, Cochrane should have been given game time this season and its not a good look for the club or Neilson that he has failed to do that. 

[DS98]

Might have something to do with youth team players not allowed to train with the first team. The u18/20’s haven’t trained this year. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

Obviously I totally disagree but a point needs to be highlighted here about Neilsons total reluctance to give youth a chance. Lewis Moore is a good example, despite us being relegated he finished the season on a high and Stendel seemed to instil a good bit of confidence in the laddie. The first thing Neilson does is sign him out of the team with total guff like Frear and Roberts. What makes this so distasteful is that when it became apparent neither was good enough he still wouldn't give Moore a chance to prove him wrong. Its utterly boneheaded and arrogant IMO. Anthony McDonald being allowed to leave the club, who again was starting to look like he could play a role under Stendel was another negative move against our Academy kids. 

 

Its very apparent that Neilson has little to no interest in developing young talent at this club, and I think that is totally in contrast to what I believe our goals as a club should be. Neilson claimed to be a big proponent of youth but just like Levein that is nothing but empty words as his actions have shown that. In his first spell, every young player we used had been blooded in 2013 season under Gary Locke, so again, he can't claim any credit for that. 

 

Robbie Neilson will not add any value to our club and should be chased off in the summer and someone who is genuinely committed to youth should be signed up to actually integrate the academy into the first team. However, if Ann decides to learn nothing from Levein and stick by Robbie, there is a legitimate point to be made about why we are even bothering about the academy. Its a total disgrace. Lads like Logan, Smith, Cochrane should have been given game time this season and its not a good look for the club or Neilson that he has failed to do that. 

Neilson is a shite coach, therefore using youngsters would be a problem. He needs ready made players - except he can’t motivate them and his tactics are wank so we’re utterly bang average anyway.

 

Bang average is good enough for Budge though.

[Bongo 1874]

7 minutes ago, OTT said:

Obviously I totally disagree but a point needs to be highlighted here about Neilsons total reluctance to give youth a chance. Lewis Moore is a good example, despite us being relegated he finished the season on a high and Stendel seemed to instil a good bit of confidence in the laddie. The first thing Neilson does is sign him out of the team with total guff like Frear and Roberts. What makes this so distasteful is that when it became apparent neither was good enough he still wouldn't give Moore a chance to prove him wrong. Its utterly boneheaded and arrogant IMO. Anthony McDonald being allowed to leave the club, who again was starting to look like he could play a role under Stendel was another negative move against our Academy kids. 

 

Its very apparent that Neilson has little to no interest in developing young talent at this club, and I think that is totally in contrast to what I believe our goals as a club should be. Neilson claimed to be a big proponent of youth but just like Levein that is nothing but empty words as his actions have shown that. In his first spell, every young player we used had been blooded in 2013 season under Gary Locke, so again, he can't claim any credit for that. 

 

Robbie Neilson will not add any value to our club and should be chased off in the summer and someone who is genuinely committed to youth should be signed up to actually integrate the academy into the first team. However, if Ann decides to learn nothing from Levein and stick by Robbie, there is a legitimate point to be made about why we are even bothering about the academy. Its a total disgrace. Lads like Logan, Smith, Cochrane should have been given game time this season and its not a good look for the club or Neilson that he has failed to do that. 

Spot on 👍. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Genuine question but because of COVID are the academy kids training and playing? All clubs - not just us?

Edited February 28, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Braminho]

45 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Quite remarkable really when we have the best training facilities and youth in Scotland. 

How many minutes has he played 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, OTT said:

Obviously I totally disagree but a point needs to be highlighted here about Neilsons total reluctance to give youth a chance. Lewis Moore is a good example, despite us being relegated he finished the season on a high and Stendel seemed to instil a good bit of confidence in the laddie. The first thing Neilson does is sign him out of the team with total guff like Frear and Roberts. What makes this so distasteful is that when it became apparent neither was good enough he still wouldn't give Moore a chance to prove him wrong. Its utterly boneheaded and arrogant IMO. Anthony McDonald being allowed to leave the club, who again was starting to look like he could play a role under Stendel was another negative move against our Academy kids. 

 

Its very apparent that Neilson has little to no interest in developing young talent at this club, and I think that is totally in contrast to what I believe our goals as a club should be. Neilson claimed to be a big proponent of youth but just like Levein that is nothing but empty words as his actions have shown that. In his first spell, every young player we used had been blooded in 2013 season under Gary Locke, so again, he can't claim any credit for that. 

 

Robbie Neilson will not add any value to our club and should be chased off in the summer and someone who is genuinely committed to youth should be signed up to actually integrate the academy into the first team. However, if Ann decides to learn nothing from Levein and stick by Robbie, there is a legitimate point to be made about why we are even bothering about the academy. Its a total disgrace. Lads like Logan, Smith, Cochrane should have been given game time this season and its not a good look for the club or Neilson that he has failed to do that. 

Hard to argue with any of that

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, Braminho said:

How many minutes has he played 

Sorry 😂. 

[queensferryjambo]

36 minutes ago, robbogoal said:

Seen a post on Twitter saying hearts haven’t given a single minute to any teenager this season (in the league). 

 

Henderson, Irving, McGill and Brandon are all players from the Academy that have featured this season.

 

The fact that 2 of them have now turned 20 fits conveniently into the no teenagers agenda but they are young Academy players none the less. I don't think the reserve team and first team are allowed to mix just now either.

 

Aaron Hickey got us a transfer fee of circa £1.5 Million in what are really tough times he was an Academy player. Callum Paterson was transferred from Cardiff to Sheffield Wednesday recently Hearts got a bit of cash from that and another Academy players.  I know that doesn't suit the doom and  gloom agenda but the fact is we have got money from Academy players.

 

As for Neilson not picking teenagers I am not sure what all the different factors are in this but it just seems another stick to beat him with. 

 

 

[Cruyff]

46 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd prefer the alternative. Use the academy. Bin the duds. 

 

But, yes, if the recruitment and first XI selection strategy is continued, then we have no need for the expenditure - all we're doing is getting young players ready for League 1 loans.

This. 

 

It seems that League 1, 2 and Championship clubs have no need for an Academy when they have us to develop players for them. 

 

It's very sad that so much emphasis has been placed on promoting youth and state of the art facilities, yet we are producing no more young players than what we have in the past. 

 

Use it or lose it imo. 

[DS98]

11 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

Genuine question but because of COVID are the academy kids training and playing? All clubs - not just us?

No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

3 minutes ago, DS98 said:

No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

 

Real shame for the boys at a crucial stage of their careers. At least we've found loans for some of them.

Edited February 28, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[jamboinglasgow]

1 minute ago, DS98 said:

No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

 

This is a side note to all this, but its sad to think the effect that Covid will have on a generation of young players. Through no fault of their own, they will have at least a year of their development lost. One of the (many) reasons I hope things can get back to normal, so that children can get back to playing against each other. 

[DS98]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Real shame for the boys at a crucial stage of their careers. At least we've found loans for some of them.

 

5 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

This is a side note to all this, but its sad to think the effect that Covid will have on a generation of young players. Through no fault of their own, they will have at least a year of their development lost. One of the (many) reasons I hope things can get back to normal, so that children can get back to playing against each other. 

The full time contracts will be getting handed out soon. That’s a stressful time enough for a 16 year old without all this going on. 

[robbogoal]

Sorry I should have emphasised I mean since administration. I don’t think we can count the kids who played in the relegation year or championship last time as we were forced to play them. 
im just questioning whether the £ spent on the academy would be better spent elsewhere given how few are getting or have had a genuine opportunity. 
 

[robbogoal]

3 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

This is a side note to all this, but its sad to think the effect that Covid will have on a generation of young players. Through no fault of their own, they will have at least a year of their development lost. One of the (many) reasons I hope things can get back to normal, so that children can get back to playing against each other. 

Every kid in that academy should be given another year in the circumstances 

[rudiatemyhamster]

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

 

No surprise our best crop of youngsters came out hen we almost went bust and had to play academy players.  
 

 

[jamboinglasgow]

Just now, DS98 said:

 

The full time contracts will be getting handed out soon. That’s a stressful time enough for a 16 year old without all this going on. 

 

I hope we are fair to them, maybe take the last year into account. Do you have any knowledge about those who are eligable for pro contracts to know which ones to look out for?

[Tokyo Drifter]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

I'd prefer the alternative. Use the academy. Bin the duds. 

 

But, yes, if the recruitment and first XI selection strategy is continued, then we have no need for the expenditure - all we're doing is getting young players ready for League 1 loans.

The sad fact is the academy just isn't producing the goods. Some clubs manage a conveyor belt of talent, some don't. We've always been in the second category. We produce maybe one talent every four or five season. I'd say Walker, Paterson, Hickey in the last decade. On the other hand, count up the young players who come through and look at first as if they're going to dazzle - Cochrane and McDonald to name just two in recent seasons - and then disappear off to Stenhousemuir on loan. It's baffling.

[kingantti1874]

In all honesty I’d prefer we start playing, Logan / McGill and co rather than buy loads of shite.

 

invest all our money in 7 real quality players and the rest come from the academy.. invest some money in attracting the best players from the academy.

 

several hearts youth graduate are playing their trade in the SPL and doing very well. Doig and Paton for example 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

7 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Is that why they are getting 1-1 training with Declan Fergus?. 

 

Honestly mate please stop. 

 

 

 

Have they trained as a team? Are they playing matches? Do we just throw in a 16 year old with zero games of any sort under his belt? A decision has clearly been made to give the better youngsters games on loan rather than have them on the bench with the odd appearance or worse just training? I would have liked us to give Smith, McGill and/or Cochrane opportunities ahead of someone like Halliday mind you if possible.

 

Note: https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results and https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results. no reserve games or league and no U18s games or league.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Bongo 1874]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

 

Have they trained as a team? Are they playing matches? Do we just throw in a 16 year old with zero games of any sort under his belt? A decision has clearly been made to give the better youngsters games on loan rather than have them on the bench with the odd appearance or worse just training?

 

Note: https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results and https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/fixtures/u18s/fixtures-and-results. no reserve games or league and no U18s games or league.

 

And may i ask where that has been said, McGill has been with the first team, Robbie decided to loan players out not me, so just you calm right down mister 😂

[Boris]

Advocating shutting down the academy is off their rocker, imo.

 

Who leads it, how it operates is up for debate, but closing it? Madness.

[R1874]

Biggest disappointment this season has been lack of gametime for kids

 

Hamilton, Logan, Smith could all have contributed. Mcgill, Henderson rarely get minutes. Moore completely frozen out

 

A missed opportunity. Would have been worthwhile if we were winning every game 5-0 and looked ready for prem. But we don’t. So would have rather seen someone like Hamilton play and maybe make a mistake here or there rather than watch Halkett consistently be shite

Edited February 28, 2021 by R1874

[jamboinglasgow]

3 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

They have been getting sessions with him regular in groups of 4 😂 go check his page 👍, he's an academy coach at Hearts. 

 

Its quite common with a lot of the youngsters, most of it has come due to lockdown restrictions. Brandon (until his injury) and Cochrane train with a specialit coach in Glasgow (with a few players from other Scottish teams) according to their instagram.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 minutes ago, robbogoal said:

Sorry I should have emphasised I mean since administration. I don’t think we can count the kids who played in the relegation year or championship last time as we were forced to play them. 
im just questioning whether the £ spent on the academy would be better spent elsewhere given how few are getting or have had a genuine opportunity. 
 

 

The championship last time was since admin and a lot of youngsters who came through with us also played in the Premiership the following season or two: Nicolson, Paterson, Walker, King, McGhee, Oliver, Hamilton, Liam Smith, Zanatta, Brandon, Henderson, Moore, Currie, Hickey, Irving, Connor Smith, Cochrane, Morrison, MacDonald. Definitely a mixed bag.

 

It's definitely slowed down at the same time as we started signing too many players and bloating the squad. Budge was explicit that she wanted that to stop when she appointed Neilson, so hopefully we'll see more youngsters again when things are back to normal.

 

I'd be interested to see how we compare to other teams. I've always thought we give more opportunities to more youngsters than other teams our size like Hibs and Aberdeen recently but fail to stick with them long enough sometimes.

[DS98]

14 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I hope we are fair to them, maybe take the last year into account. Do you have any knowledge about those who are eligable for pro contracts to know which ones to look out for?

 

Some have already been offered and have until next month to decide. It’s the usual names you see on here. My mates laddie is one of them.

[Jambo in Bathgate]

Unlike 2014/2015 we do not have a supply of battle hardened Academy players. The aim is to achieve promotion first time. With no games for Academy players it would be counterproductive to put them into the team this season. One bad game or mistake would have posters no here baying for even more blood.  

[Bongo 1874]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Its quite common with a lot of the youngsters, most of it has come due to lockdown restrictions. Brandon (until his injury) and Cochrane train with a specialit coach in Glasgow (with a few players from other Scottish teams) according to their instagram.

Yeah as you know yourself there is ways around lockdown, restrictions etc 😉 your switched on. 

[Footballfirst]

33 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

Henderson, Irving, McGill and Brandon are all players from the Academy that have featured this season.

 

Brandon is 23.  He was a Rangers academy product and joined Hearts at 18 having been released along with Rory Currie.

[1971fozzy]

Bin the academy ?  Absolutely no. That’s absurd.

what we need to do is maybe get the right folk in to identify talented youngsters and coach them.

Managers will come and go as sure as night follows day.

Robbie was given one task and that was to get us up.  I haven’t enjoyed the football style recently but if he gets us up playing zero youngsters then his decision is vindicated. 
We all love to see youngsters making it to the first team and thriving.  It’s one of many problems with the club at the moment, but as long as we get promoted is all that matters tbh.

 

closing the academy is ridiculous. That’s for other clubs to do

[Bongo 1874]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Brandon is 23.  He was a Rangers academy product and joined Hearts at 18 having been released along with Rory Currie.

Correct 👍. 

 

Anyone wants the truth about youth ask this guy 👍. 

 

Gives a fair account. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Bongo 1874

[jamboinglasgow]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Yeah as you know yourself there is ways around lockdown, restrictions etc 😉 your switched on. 

 

Yup, I think its the best option for the youngsters, they dont get games but get additional focused coaching. Think it was Fergus who did training with McDonald  before he signed for Inverness. Is interesting see Cochranes Instagram at the drills they do. I hope so much the lower league season starts up soon.

[Footballfirst]

30 minutes ago, DS98 said:

No. They aren’t allowed to mix with the first team and they haven’t trained at all this year. 

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.

[jamboinglasgow]

5 minutes ago, DS98 said:

 

Some have already been offered and have until next month to decide. It’s the usual names you see on here. My mates laddie is one of them.

 

Cheers, always fascinated to see who signs pro-contracts. I hope your mates laddie goes on to reach the first team, but if not has best career in football he can.

[Bongo 1874]

Just now, Footballfirst said:

For a season in the championship we should have been looking to introduce new faces rather than recruit journeymen.

 

Your becoming my favourite poster on here 😂. 

[Bazzas right boot]

There is a case for it and to scale it back. 

 

My biggest concern is the benefit to Hearts it brings. 

 

Young players who are not good enough get released after playing a handful of games and/or being on loan. Sometimes we extend to give them a chance but they don't become regulars for us or improve us. 

Some may then peak later on, but ultimately at the time they were not good enough to play for us regularly and had to leave to get game time and develop. 

 

 

The good ones, Hickey and Patterson being the best examples play a season or two, do a good job for us but then don't extend thier contract so they end up leaving for nothing or a reduced fee. So ultimately when we do get a good player the benefit to us is short term. 

 

Needs analysis but  I'm leaning towards scaling the academy back and looking at players aged between 18-22 released by bigger clubs down south and to a lesser extent the OF along with paying for players from lesser sides. 

 

Irving will be the  most recent, decent player to not sign and we won't get a fee either. 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Smith's right boot

[DS98]

14 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

They have been getting sessions with him regular in groups of 4 😂 go check his page 👍, he's an academy coach at Hearts. 

The entire youth team? Are these sessions being carried out via the club or is he doing it independently and charging?

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

 

Your becoming my favourite poster on here 😂. 

No need. I'm already my own favourite poster. 🤣