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BarneyBattles

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The Frenchman Returns

John Knox is a direct ancestor.

 

My 4 times great grandfather was killed in a mining accident and made the papers

 

31 August 1854

Melancholy and Fatal Accident – On Thursday, while two men named Adam Dow and Walter Stewart were engaged in raising the pumps from a pit near the village of Tranent, belonging to Mr Cadell, the scaffolding on which they stood gave way beneath them, and they were precipitated to the bottom of the pit, falling into upwards of eight feet of water. Before either of them could be rescued life was extinct. [Scotsman 2 September 1854]

 

most interesting branch of the family were the Tait’s who were notorious Yetholm Gypsies. Lots of stories available about them including tales written about them by Sir Walter Scott.

Edited by The Frenchman Returns
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2 hours ago, Stu_HMFC said:

I’ve never done this before . Always though about it but don’t fancy paying on these website and potentially be left with no findings . Has anyone got any websites they have used what they recommend or can you visit register house for this information still ? 

 

It's free to search the indexes at https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ (from which you can learn a lot) and costs about £1.50 to view actual register entries (which you can do when you're fairly sure you have found the right entry in the indexes). You can quickly work a few generations back for about £20 if everything aligns. No visits to Register House during the pandemic, but when it's over, the folk there are incredibly helpful.

 

You can use the above in conjunction with https://www.familysearch.org/en/ which is free and a sort of giant collaborative family tree.

 

Many libraries allow free access to Ancestry and FindMyPast, and some are allowing access remotely to one or other of these during the pandemic.

 

The first thing you should do though is ask elderly relatives, if you have any, for as much information that they have on their ancestors and relatives. It may not be 100% accurate but it can give you a very good start.

 

If you need any help, PM me.

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2 hours ago, BarneyBattles said:

The problem with a lot of WWI records is that when they were all held in storage there was a massive fire which destroyed a lot (ironically that might have been during WWII). Still loads online though. 

 

Prior to statutory registration in 1855, records of births, deaths and marriages were kept by the local parish minister. There's an old story, I'm not sure whether true or not, that one minister found that his register had taken water damage and so carefully separated the pages and laid them out on a dyke to dry off, only to come back later and find a cow polishing them off.

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Awbdy Oot
1 hour ago, Salad Fingers said:

John MacLean apparently through my Grans side. 

 

Wow, he was brilliant in that Nakatomi Tower carry on.

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The Frenchman Returns

@redjambo I have spent many a happy day in Register House, find it weirdly therapeutic and complete me time as no one else in my family is even slightly interested in their tree. As you say its not expensive.

 

Have you ever had to search English records?, almost all my lines are Scottish but there are a couple of branches I have hit a brick wall, Granny born in Berwick upon Tweed where they seemed to cross back and forward to Coldstream and back.

 

Worst one though is wife's Grandfather who was a scouser.

 

Is there an easy, and cheap, way of searching English and indeed Irish records?

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12 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

@redjambo I have spent many a happy day in Register House, find it weirdly therapeutic and complete me time as no one else in my family is even slightly interested in their tree. As you say its not expensive.

 

Have you ever had to search English records?, almost all my lines are Scottish but there are a couple of branches I have hit a brick wall, Granny born in Berwick upon Tweed where they seemed to cross back and forward to Coldstream and back.

 

Worst one though is wife's Grandfather who was a scouser.

 

Is there an easy, and cheap, way of searching English and indeed Irish records?

 

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ is a useful resource - it's basically an index of all the statutory BMD records in England and Wales from 1837 onwards. If you can get access to FindMyPast or similar (perhaps through a library) which contains census info, that is also useful (they have images of the census pages themselves). Some of the earlier censuses may be on https://www.freecen.org.uk/.

 

But overall, it's a very good question. I have to admit that I've never had to obtain an English certificate and wouldn't know how to, or whether the system is centralised or not. We're lucky to have the system we do here in Scotland.

 

For Northern Irish records https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ is your best bet. It costs a little to view certificates, but I've found it difficult finding the info elsewhere.

 

For the Republic, I've always found getting hold of the records a bit of an enigma, although some of the links on http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ may be of use. Perhaps the paid sites are the best bet there?

 

Again, PM me if you stall finding info on your borders relatives (but not if their surname was Smith or the likes ;)).

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5 hours ago, Tazio said:

One of my grandads was a massive arsehole, Olympian standard. 
He managed to have two families on the go, both in Leith and only about a mile or so apart. He seemed to manage this as he was a trawler man and would claim he was off to sea for a fortnight or whatever but actually only do half the time and then head off to the second family. Then repeat the entire thing with them. Common knowledge to a lot of people but neither of the families ever found out about the other. Then my dad’s mother died so being the nice guy he was he put his 4 sons into an orphanage and moved in full time with the other family until he got bored with them and vanished. In this same period he signed papers that sent the 2 youngest off to an Australian orphanage for a new life. My dad came back on leave from the army and discovered this had happened and he wasn’t allowed details of where they’re been sent. It took 25 years or so until they were reconnected by one of the Australians writing a letter to the Daily Record letters page appealing for relatives in Scotland.  The last time my old man saw him was when he turned up at his wedding and was told in pretty blunt terms by my dad to **** off or else. Then out of nowhere my dad got a phone call about 30 years later from a woman in Grimsby saying she was his daughter and he’d died and gave my dad the funeral details. To my amazement he actually went to it “just to make sure the old ******* was dead”.

I didn’t know about the 2nd family until I was in my twenties and went to visit my parents and met their new next door neighbour who I casually mentioned to my mum looked oddly like my dad. At which point she went into panic mode and dragged me out the room and explained the whole sorry tale. So my dad ended up living next door to his half brother for about 10 years with neither of them aware of their relationship. 
If you made shit like that into a film people would say it was ridiculously far fetched. So I’ve got relatives all over Leith and Grimsby I’ve no knowledge of. Also my dad’s older brother went off to join the army and hasn’t been seen since. 
Thank Christ my mum’s side were normal. Well, most of them but that’s another odd story of vanishing sailors. 

 

Nobody famous in my line, for a few generations at any rate.

 

As a young single man my grandfather (Belfast Protestant) got a 16 year old girl pregnant.  Her father (Belfast Catholic) was away on a British Merchant Navy vessel at the time the news broke.  Her mother decided this was too shameful (It was the 1930s) and packed her off to one of Ireland's infamous Mother and Baby homes (see Philomena, the movie) so she could have her baby there and have it sent off for adoption.

 

Her da returned from sea shortly afterwards and was told the story.  He found the only person he knew with a car (local doctor) and they drove to this Mother and Baby home (a couple of hours' drive away), rang on the doorbell and asked for his daughter back.  He brought her back home.  Subsequently, at the invitation of the nuns, she returned to the home, had her baby and was looked after for a couple of weeks before both mother and child returned home.

 

Her father also tracked down my grandfather's whereabouts and reported him to the cops.  My grandfather was charged with some sex-related offence, copped a plea for something more minor, and was sentenced to some time in prison.  After a few months in the slammer, sometime in 1940, he was released on condition he leave the jurisdiction, him being a resident of NI and a British citizen/subject. 

 

My grandfather left, took himself across the Border and thence to England, where he enlisted (he had an exemption from conscription).  Because of Dunkirk and all that, he found himself training and (more or less) kicking his heels.  Late in 1941, he got some leave, which he used to return to Ireland, where he got word to my grandmother (now 18 and with a 2 year old) that he was in town. On a Saturday afternoon, in a local tea shop/café, they talked and decided they would get married.

 

But they figured that unless they made this a fait accompli they would be stopped, most likely by her family but possibly by his.  So they legged it to the local Catholic church, knocked on the presbytery door and explained the position to the parish priest.  He, apparently, thought this was a hoot, and more or less told them to feck off.  At the time, there was a rule in force in the Catholic church that didn't allow mixed-faith marriages at all, which meant that if she wanted to get married in the church he would have to change religion.  When the priest told them to go away, they pointed out that  their only choice would be to run round to the local Church of Ireland and ask for their assistance. 

 

So the priest relented and asked them to wait while he made some calls to Armagh and Dublin (which was quite a big deal in 1941).  The relevant permissions were obtained, and they duly returned to the church where, in the space of an hour or thereabouts my grandfather was christened and confirmed into the Catholic church following which he and my grandmother were married.  When being baptised my grandfather needed two godparents.   Because the only woman in the church at the time was my grandmother, there was no-one permitted to be godmother to him, so his Catholic baptismal record contains the names of two godfathers, which is a bit unusual.

 

The wedding completed, they presented themselves and their fait accompli to her parents.  In telling this story, my grandmother didn't give precise details of what her father said, though she did say that they all had something to eat, following which her father, her new husband and several other male relatives got together and ****ed off to the pub.  A day or two later, my grandfather returned to England and the Army.  Over the next couple of years there was some to-ing and fro-ing between England and Ireland, during which time my mother was born.

 

Except for some service in the south and east of England, my grandfather's war didn't really get going until D-Day.  However, it came to a sudden, painful and somewhat embarrassing halt a couple of days later somewhere in Normandy when he was shot.  In a ditch.  In the backside.  While pulling up his trousers having just taken a dump.  He was shipped back to England where he needed some surgery and recovery, so by the time he was ready to be deployed again it was the end of April 1945, and although he saw service he wasn't involved in any further action.

 

In the meantime, by the way, his family in Belfast had cut off contact with him as soon as they heard of his wedding (and more significantly, his conversion to Catholicism).  However, the cutting off of contact was at the direction of his father, and when his father died in an accident in the early 1950s his mother re-established contact.  This led to the situation where, for a number of years in the 1950s, my mother would visit her Protestant relatives in Belfast for a couple of weeks in June, return to the Republic for a couple of weeks either side of mid-July, and travel back to Belfast to spend a couple of weeks with the relations on the other side.  But as far as she knew the two groups of relations never met each other.

 

Anyway, there's more to the story, but it's mostly of interest to me only (or maybe my relatives).  I swore I'd never write this down as long as my mother and grandmother were alive.  But my mother passed away just before Christmas 2019, and my grandmother slipped away last summer (though her mind had gone a long while before that).  So now I've written it down - a wee tribute to two courageous and strong-willed women who influenced my life, and two courageous and strong-willed men who influenced theirs.

Edited by Ulysses
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9 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Nobody famous in my line, for a few generations at any rate.

 

As a young single man my grandfather (Belfast Protestant) got a 16 year old girl pregnant.  Her father (Belfast Catholic) was away on a British Merchant Navy vessel at the time the news broke.  Her mother decided this was too shameful (It was the 1930s) and packed her off to one of Ireland's infamous Mother and Baby homes (see Philomena, the movie) so she could have her baby there and have it sent off for adoption.

 

Her da returned from sea shortly afterwards and was told the story.  He found the only person he knew with a car (local doctor) and they drove to this Mother and Baby home (a couple of hours' drive away), rang on the doorbell and asked for his daughter back.  He brought her back home.  Subsequently, at the invitation of the nuns, she returned to the home, had her baby and was looked after for a couple of weeks before both mother and child returned home.

 

Her father also tracked down my grandfather's whereabouts and reported him to the cops.  My grandfather was charged with some sex-related offence, copped a plea for something more minor, and was sentenced to some time in prison.  After a few months in the slammer, sometime in 1940, he was released on condition he leave the jurisdiction, him being a resident of NI and a British citizen/subject. 

 

My grandfather left, took himself across the Border and thence to England, where he enlisted (he had an exemption from conscription).  Because of Dunkirk and all that, he found himself training and (more or less) kicking his heels.  Late in 1941, he got some leave, which he used to return to Ireland, where he got word to my grandmother (now 18 and with a 2 year old) that he was in town. On a Saturday afternoon, in a local tea shop/café, they talked and decided they would get married.

 

But they figured that unless they made this a fait accompli they would be stopped, most likely by her family but possibly by his.  So they legged it to the local Catholic church, knocked on the presbytery door and explained the position to the parish priest.  He, apparently, thought this was a hoot, and more or less told them to feck off.  At the time, there was a rule in force in the Catholic church that didn't allow mixed-faith marriages at all, which meant that if she wanted to get married in the church he would have to change religion.  When the priest told them to go away, they pointed out that  their only choice would be to run round to the local Church of Ireland and ask for their assistance. 

 

So the priest relented and asked them to wait while he made some calls to Armagh and Dublin (which was quite a big deal in 1941).  The relevant permissions were obtained, and they duly returned to the church where, in the space of an hour or thereabouts my grandfather was christened and confirmed into the Catholic church following which he and my grandmother were married.  When being baptised my grandfather needed two godparents.   Because the only woman in the church at the time was my grandmother, there was no-one permitted to be godmother to him, so his Catholic baptismal record contains the names of two godfathers, which is a bit unusual.

 

The wedding completed, they presented themselves and their fait accompli to her parents.  In telling this story, my grandmother didn't give precise details of what her father said, though she did say that they all had something to eat, following which her father, her new husband and several other male relatives got together and ****ed off to the pub.  A day or two later, my grandfather returned to England and the Army.  Over the next couple of years there was some to-ing and fro-ing between England and Ireland, during which time my mother was born.

 

Except for some service in the south and east of England, my grandfather's war didn't really get going until D-Day.  However, it came to a sudden, painful and somewhat embarrassing halt a couple of days later somewhere in Normandy when he was shot.  In a ditch.  In the backside.  While pulling up his trousers having just taken a dump.  He was shipped back to England where he needed some surgery and recovery, so by the time he was ready to be deployed again it was the end of April 1945, and although he saw service he wasn't involved in any further action.

 

In the meantime, by the way, his family in Belfast had cut off contact with him as soon as they heard of his wedding (and more significantly, his conversion to Catholicism).  However, the cutting off of contact was at the direction of his father, and when his father died in an accident in the early 1950s his mother re-established contact.  This led to the situation where, for a number of years in the 1950s, my mother would visit her Protestant relatives in Belfast for a couple of weeks in June, return to the Republic for a couple of weeks either side of mid-July, and travel back to Belfast to spend a couple of weeks with the relations on the other side.  But as far as she knew the two groups of relations never met each other.

 

Anyway, there's more to the story, but it's mostly of interest to me only (or maybe my relatives).  I swore I'd never write this down as long as my mother and grandmother were alive.  But my mother passed away just before Christmas 2019, and my grandmother slipped away last summer (though her mind had gone a long while before that).  So now I've written it down - a wee tribute to two courageous and strong-willed women who influenced my life, and two courageous and strong-willed men who influenced theirs.

Jesus but that’s a tangled web. Tolerance was a lot lower back in the day. My great grand parents had to get married in a house as opposed to a church as she was Church of Scotland from Newhaven and he was a teuchter wee free Presbyterian from Argyll that didn’t have great English having been brought up speaking Gaelic. Newhaven people back then didn’t appreciate incomers especially ones who spoke a funny language. That was two different types of Protestant refusing to see eye to eye. Later an auntie married a catholic and converted and became mad for it. When I was a kid I was used to hearing the expression there’s no fanatic like a convert. My uncle Archie used to get dragged under protestation to mass of a weekend by his convert wife. 

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20 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Jesus but that’s a tangled web. Tolerance was a lot lower back in the day. My great grand parents had to get married in a house as opposed to a church as she was Church of Scotland from Newhaven and he was a teuchter wee free Presbyterian from Argyll that didn’t have great English having been brought up speaking Gaelic. Newhaven people back then didn’t appreciate incomers especially ones who spoke a funny language. That was two different types of Protestant refusing to see eye to eye. Later an auntie married a catholic and converted and became mad for it. When I was a kid I was used to hearing the expression there’s no fanatic like a convert. My uncle Archie used to get dragged under protestation to mass of a weekend by his convert wife. 

 

My grandfather went into the local church for religious ceremonies involving his kids (he even contrived to miss a couple of those), but otherwise he never attended until his own funeral (he'd have avoided church for that as well if he could have).  On the other hand, my grandmother went regularly, as did my mother.

 

(On a separate note, acquiring some level of competency in Gàidhlig is on my to-do list, but I keep finding other distractions.)

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Salad Fingers
6 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Wow, he was brilliant in that Nakatomi Tower carry on.

 

Always had a headache though apparently. Seems to run in the family. 

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Interesting to read a couple of stories of dual lives.

 

Have been told that a relative of mine had two families on the go in the early part of the 20th century, one in Somerset and one in California. 

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hughesie27
12 hours ago, Tazio said:

One of my grandads was a massive arsehole, Olympian standard. 
He managed to have two families on the go, both in Leith and only about a mile or so apart. He seemed to manage this as he was a trawler man and would claim he was off to sea for a fortnight or whatever but actually only do half the time and then head off to the second family. Then repeat the entire thing with them. Common knowledge to a lot of people but neither of the families ever found out about the other. Then my dad’s mother died so being the nice guy he was he put his 4 sons into an orphanage and moved in full time with the other family until he got bored with them and vanished. In this same period he signed papers that sent the 2 youngest off to an Australian orphanage for a new life. My dad came back on leave from the army and discovered this had happened and he wasn’t allowed details of where they’re been sent. It took 25 years or so until they were reconnected by one of the Australians writing a letter to the Daily Record letters page appealing for relatives in Scotland.  The last time my old man saw him was when he turned up at his wedding and was told in pretty blunt terms by my dad to **** off or else. Then out of nowhere my dad got a phone call about 30 years later from a woman in Grimsby saying she was his daughter and he’d died and gave my dad the funeral details. To my amazement he actually went to it “just to make sure the old ******* was dead”.

I didn’t know about the 2nd family until I was in my twenties and went to visit my parents and met their new next door neighbour who I casually mentioned to my mum looked oddly like my dad. At which point she went into panic mode and dragged me out the room and explained the whole sorry tale. So my dad ended up living next door to his half brother for about 10 years with neither of them aware of their relationship. 
If you made shit like that into a film people would say it was ridiculously far fetched. So I’ve got relatives all over Leith and Grimsby I’ve no knowledge of. Also my dad’s older brother went off to join the army and hasn’t been seen since. 
Thank Christ my mum’s side were normal. Well, most of them but that’s another odd story of vanishing sailors. 

Long winded way to tell us you're a Hibby.

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Jambo-Jimbo
12 hours ago, BarneyBattles said:

The problem with a lot of WWI records is that when they were all held in storage there was a massive fire which destroyed a lot (ironically that might have been during WWII). Still loads online though. 

 

Fire bombed in 1940 during the blitz, about 60% were either destroyed by the fire or the subsequent water damage in trying to put out the fire.

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On the dual family side of things, one of the daughters of the ancestor of mine who had 19 children told the family, who all lived in the west of Scotland, that she was off abroad and then disappeared completely. The only thing was that she hadn't. The husband of her older sister, a merchant in Glasgow, had installed her as his bit on the side in a flat in Edinburgh and over the next few years had quite a number of children by her there while also having children with her sister in Glasgow, using business trips to Edinburgh as the pretence for staying with his woman in the capital. The west coast family had no idea that he was doing this until she turned up at his funeral wanting part of his inheritance. Unfortunately she was perfunctorily shown the door. Her children were either adopted or given other surnames so were difficult to track down, but one of her descendants put many of the pieces together. In fact I came across another child of hers just a couple of months ago that we had no idea existed.

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Jambo-Jimbo
8 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ is a useful resource - it's basically an index of all the statutory BMD records in England and Wales from 1837 onwards. If you can get access to FindMyPast or similar (perhaps through a library) which contains census info, that is also useful (they have images of the census pages themselves). Some of the earlier censuses may be on https://www.freecen.org.uk/.

 

But overall, it's a very good question. I have to admit that I've never had to obtain an English certificate and wouldn't know how to, or whether the system is centralised or not. We're lucky to have the system we do here in Scotland.

 

For Northern Irish records https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ is your best bet. It costs a little to view certificates, but I've found it difficult finding the info elsewhere.

 

For the Republic, I've always found getting hold of the records a bit of an enigma, although some of the links on http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ may be of use. Perhaps the paid sites are the best bet there?

 

Again, PM me if you stall finding info on your borders relatives (but not if their surname was Smith or the likes ;)).

 

English certificates are a pain, you really need to know exactly who you are looking or you can waste a hell of a lot of money (£10 a certificate) on getting certificates which tell you next to nothing.

English & Irish records often don't even tell you the basics, a marriage will only tell you the father's names not the mother's name as does a death certificate, not much use if you are looking for a common name, whereas the Scottish records record both parents and that makes life a hellva lot easier in finding the right person.

 

Agree with N. Ireland, although I've got several of Mrs JJ's lot's certificates.

 

The Republic you can send away for copies, think it was something like €20 or do what I did, when on a long week-end with Mrs JJ, I popped into the records office in Dublin and got a copy there and then, €6 I think it cost me for a copy of a marriage certificate from 1858.

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Jambo-Jimbo
10 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Prior to statutory registration in 1855, records of births, deaths and marriages were kept by the local parish minister. There's an old story, I'm not sure whether true or not, that one minister found that his register had taken water damage and so carefully separated the pages and laid them out on a dyke to dry off, only to come back later and find a cow polishing them off.

 

The OPR's (Old Parochial Registers) are only as good as the minister or clerk who kept them, sometimes you can learn lots of information, but a lot of the time it's simply something like, Today John Smith & Elizabeth Wilson were married.

 

Deaths in a lot of parishes are not recorded, especially out in the Isles or way up North, indeed on the Isle of Lewis some parishes only began to keep any records from the 1820's.

 

It's reckoned that only around about 40%-60% of the population of Scotland appear in the OPR's at any given time, so it's a hit or a miss if you can find your people, a lot of the time the first time you pick folks up is in the census as there is no record of their birth.

 

I always find it quite sad when the only record of someone's life is in either the 1841 or 1851 census, especially children whose birth & death are unrecorded and they appear on only one census return, I wonder how many didn't even have that one entry recorded, many I'd think.

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Nobody of great note, seems that my love of travel hasn't been handed down through the generations, I've traced back to early 16th Century (1510) on my mothers, mothers side and pretty much my entire ancestry comes from the Lothians with a few dotted around Scotland with one spur in NI.

 

The furthest back I got was a Sir Alexander McLaren born 1510 but can find out zero information about him, I suspect that the McLaren's/MacLarens by that point had become nothing more than a subsidiary of one of the larger clans and the 'title' was virtually worthless at that point in time.

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15 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The OPR's (Old Parochial Registers) are only as good as the minister or clerk who kept them, sometimes you can learn lots of information, but a lot of the time it's simply something like, Today John Smith & Elizabeth Wilson were married.

 

Deaths in a lot of parishes are not recorded, especially out in the Isles or way up North, indeed on the Isle of Lewis some parishes only began to keep any records from the 1820's.

 

It's reckoned that only around about 40%-60% of the population of Scotland appear in the OPR's at any given time, so it's a hit or a miss if you can find your people, a lot of the time the first time you pick folks up is in the census as there is no record of their birth.

 

I always find it quite sad when the only record of someone's life is in either the 1841 or 1851 census, especially children whose birth & death are unrecorded and they appear on only one census return, I wonder how many didn't even have that one entry recorded, many I'd think.

 

Indeed. I've also lost count of the number of my ancestors who died after the 1851 census but before statutory registration in 1855. "If only they had just lasted another couple of years or so, I could have got so much more info!" is a cry I have oft uttered.

 

The patchiness of the old parochial records also makes many researchers grasp at straws in the trees and data that I've seen. "John McSurname was married and lived in Dumfriesshire but he was born in 1831 according to the census and other information and I can't find a John McSurname born in the county about then. Hang on, there was a John McSurname born in Argyll in 1831 - that must be him and he must have moved down to Dumfries!" and so on. You have to come to terms with the fact that unless your ancestors were nobility, there's only so far you will be able to back before the certainty that a given person was actually your ancestor reduces dramatically. It becomes a balance of probabilities, based on factors such as occupation, names, children's names etc.

 

Edited by redjambo
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My ancestor cut off the Moorish King of Spain and last Muslim sultans head and drove the Caliphate from Western Europe. For his service in the crusades he was granted "lands in the south."

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frankblack

My Mum traced the family all over Scotland, going back as far as Tarbet on her side for over 200 years, but we never got far on my old man's side beyond his parents.  When I brought it up he didn't want to discuss it, so suspect there is some kind of scandal somewhere.

 

He passed in 2019, and I'd have to go down south to do any kind of research so its a lot of hassle.

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Jambo-Jimbo

A wee word of caution to anybody who uses the likes of Ancestry.com etc.

 

Do not trust the family trees that other people have submitted, do the research yourself, if it turns out to be the same then fine, but often you'll find that someone has made a mistake and other people have just copied it, unaware that they have just copied someone else's mistake.

 

Example.

Mrs JJ has a good one and a clear example of how not to trust other people's family trees.

On ancestry there are about 9 trees which all have this particular direct ancestor of Mrs JJ in them, they all have this chap as born in 1861 near Glasgow and his parents were whatever & his occupation is a miner etc etc.  This is despite the census' telling us that he was born in the 1850's in England and worked on ships, but I can only presume that the first person to submit their tree had made a huge mistake and other people have just copied that mistake.  And I know 100% it's a mistake because they all have the wrong person, but they don't know it.

 

You see he got into bother when he was in his early teens, was sent to reform school for a few years, this was in the mid 1860's in Norwich, anyway when he got out he changed his name and disappeared.  Reappeared in Glasgow in the early 1880's, but he'd dropped his birth surname and was using his middle name as his surname, which is similar to the name those folks on ancestry think is their ancestor.

But if they'd been bothered to do the research for themselves they might have found that the guy who they think is their's isn't and is someone completely different.

 

And that is why you do the research yourself and don't trust what other people have done, unless of course they provide source material and references, documents etc etc.

 

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Fxxx the SPFL

On my late gran's side was the surname Neill (Barnweill, Ayrshire) which i traced back to the 1750's parish records at Register House it only took an hour working my way back from my Gran's surname Robertson (i could be related to Robbo) anyway it turns out my ancestor was a Brigadier General James Smith Neill who was employed by the British East India Company and ended up in charge of the Madras Army and fought at the battle of Lucknow reading a bit about him he sounds a bit of a bar steward murdering Indians left right and centre possibly during the Indian Rebellion died in 1857 his name is on a memorial in Wellington Square, Ayr i'll need to do a bit more digging when i get a chance. My gran was from Newhaven, Graham Street (Bonnington) born 1906 her mother was one of the last Newhaven fishwives allegedly.

Edited by Fxxx the SPFL
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Auld Reekin'
3 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Long winded way to tell us you're a Hibby.

 

Nah - cannae be - exogamy is the opposite of incest!   :thumbsup:

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4 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Long winded way to tell us you're a Hibby.

No chance of that in my family. My old man was the only one across every branch of my family including in-laws. And he was pretty half hearted about the whole thing. 

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wentworth jambo

Not mine but my other half's - she's related to Annie Lennox (her granny and Annie's granny were cousins)....she's even got a couple of black and white photos from when they were kids playing together....the best part of it all is that I can categorically state my kids are more Scottish then English (my missus is English) due to that wee bit of Scottish in her family :greggy:

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NANOJAMBO
1 minute ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

My sister had hers done - absolutely nothing spectacular/noteworthy arose so I haven't bothered.

She has done a fair bit on the family tree and the best she could find was a female cousin , way back, that literally got away with murder (poisoned her husband). 

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NANOJAMBO
4 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

A wee word of caution to anybody who uses the likes of Ancestry.com etc.

 

Do not trust the family trees that other people have submitted, do the research yourself, if it turns out to be the same then fine, but often you'll find that someone has made a mistake and other people have just copied it, unaware that they have just copied someone else's mistake.

 

Example.

Mrs JJ has a good one and a clear example of how not to trust other people's family trees.

On ancestry there are about 9 trees which all have this particular direct ancestor of Mrs JJ in them, they all have this chap as born in 1861 near Glasgow and his parents were whatever & his occupation is a miner etc etc.  This is despite the census' telling us that he was born in the 1850's in England and worked on ships, but I can only presume that the first person to submit their tree had made a huge mistake and other people have just copied that mistake.  And I know 100% it's a mistake because they all have the wrong person, but they don't know it.

 

You see he got into bother when he was in his early teens, was sent to reform school for a few years, this was in the mid 1860's in Norwich, anyway when he got out he changed his name and disappeared.  Reappeared in Glasgow in the early 1880's, but he'd dropped his birth surname and was using his middle name as his surname, which is similar to the name those folks on ancestry think is their ancestor.

But if they'd been bothered to do the research for themselves they might have found that the guy who they think is their's isn't and is someone completely different.

 

And that is why you do the research yourself and don't trust what other people have done, unless of course they provide source material and references, documents etc etc.

 

Going back about 25 years a workmate of mine was doing his family tree and his advice was to be very careful about accepting word of mouth evidence when it came to dates of birth or marriage. He said in his experience , families routinely lied about this to cover up illegitimate births. 

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BarneyBattles
13 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

 

I got it done about 10-15 years ago. I was quite pleased to discover I had mostly Pictish DNA but other than that it was the usual - bit of Viking etc. etc.

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25 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

Yep. 50% banana.

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Jambo-Jimbo
1 hour ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

 

Yip, pretty much backed up the area's of where my main ancestors had come from, including a strong French-Benelux connection, which up until then had only been a strong theory.

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Auldbenches
9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yip, pretty much backed up the area's of where my main ancestors had come from, including a strong French-Benelux connection, which up until then had only been a strong theory.

I sent mine to myheritage end of last week.  Didn't realise they were based in Texas so will take about 4 weeks.  

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Jambo-Jimbo
55 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Going back about 25 years a workmate of mine was doing his family tree and his advice was to be very careful about accepting word of mouth evidence when it came to dates of birth or marriage. He said in his experience , families routinely lied about this to cover up illegitimate births. 

 

Absolutely, one of my own Great Grandmothers prior to her wedding swapped her middle name & surname over so as to give the impression that her parents had been married, which they never were.  The family never knew this until I found it.

 

I've seen lots of similar things on mine and other families, people being invented or erased, different dates, places names etc etc, and it wasn't just Illegitimate births but also when someone ended up in a lunatic asylum, that was a massive no no never to be spoke about.......ever, and more often than not the poor person was suffering from dementia, but back then they didn't know that, they just thought that aunt Mary had lost her mind and you couldn't mention it because people might think it runs in the family.

 

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Baldwigforjack
22 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

A travelling circus family who arrived in Scotland from Italy in the late 1800s.

Codona's?

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Baldwigforjack
2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

Had mine's done and discovered not only am I related to two work colleagues, but one just happens to be my work crush lol [told them we're related, not told her about my feelings though]

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Baldwigforjack
2 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Salvona.

Knew a Salvona once, but pretty sure that was her married name.

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Auld Reekin'
1 hour ago, BarneyBattles said:

 

I got it done about 10-15 years ago. I was quite pleased to discover I had mostly Pictish DNA but other than that it was the usual - bit of Viking etc. etc.

 

56 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yip, pretty much backed up the area's of where my main ancestors had come from, including a strong French-Benelux connection, which up until then had only been a strong theory.

 

Which one did you go with? I've been thinking about doing this myself, but have never been sure about which one to use.

 

There seems to have been quite a bit of controversy regarding the validity of the results from some of them, notably ScotlandsDNA / BritainsDNA. I believe that some are better than others depending on what type of results (maternal / paternal / both, etc.) you're looking for and how your preference as to how they're presented.

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Jambo-Jimbo
4 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

 

Which one did you go with? I've been thinking about doing this myself, but have never been sure about which one to use.

 

There seems to have been quite a bit of controversy regarding the validity of the results from some of them, notably ScotlandsDNA / BritainsDNA. I believe that some are better than others depending on what type of results (maternal / paternal / both, etc.) you're looking for and how your preference as to how they're presented.

 

I went for Ancestry DNA, seems pretty accurate, it certainly matched with what I already knew, which I hadn't shared with any of the online sites, so they never knew who the feck I was.

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Auld Reekin'
1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I went for Ancestry DNA, seems pretty accurate, it certainly matched with what I already knew, which I hadn't shared with any of the online sites, so they never knew who the feck I was.

 

Thanks.  :icon14:   I'll take a closer look at them.

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maroonlegions

Relative done an expensive family tree search.The results were very revealing.

 

1: On my fathers side.  Blood related to Dr David Livingston. One time missionary in Africa, "Dr Livingstone i presume".. 

2; Again on my fathers side. Awarded a "coat of arms in the 13th century, it depicted 3 castles, with each having a gold coin.. Lion rampant on top of shield, knights head shield.

 

Also found out that the symbolism on that coat of arms was the following;

 

Castles signified "aristocracy".

Gold coins signified wealth.

Knights head shield signified "knights" or military prestige.

 

This coat of arms was  accepted and ordained by Lord Lyon;

 

The Court of the Lord Lyon King of Arms is the national heraldic authority for Scotland & Scots abroad.

 

Also my wife's father was invited to lunch at Stirling Castle with princess Anne , he was one of other architects and dignitaries  who were being recognised for their contributions to Scottish architectural achievements..

 

 

         

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The Frenchman Returns
2 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

Anyone had their dna test done and was it worth it? 

Yes and it verified all the research I had carried out, I was very Scottish

Ethnicity Estimate
Scotland 90%   (Scottish Central Lowlands)
Ireland  8%
England & Northwestern Europe  2%
 

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maroonlegions
1 minute ago, maroonlegions said:

Relative done an expensive family tree search.The results were very revealing.

 

1: On my fathers side.  Blood related to Dr David Livingston. One time missionary in Africa, "Dr Livingstone i presume".. 

2; Again on my fathers side. Awarded a "coat of arms in the 13th century, it depicted 3 castles, with each having a gold coin.. Lion rampant on top of shield, knights head shield.

 

Also found out that the symbolism on that coat of arms was the following;

 

Castles signified "aristocracy".

Gold coins signified wealth.

Knights head shield signified "knights" or military prestige.

 

This coat of arms was  accepted and ordained by Lord Lyon;

 

The Court of the Lord Lyon King of Arms is the national heraldic authority for Scotland & Scots abroad.

 

Also my wife's father was invited to lunch at Stirling Castle with princess Anne , he was one of other architects and dignitaries  who were being recognised for their contributions to Scottish architectural achievements..

 

So in essence , you should BOW please , you  peasants in my presence..  :greggy:

         

 

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Footballfirst

One of my 3xG Grandmothers was born illegitimately. The parish record for her baptism showed fairly clearly how the minister viewed such births.

 

The entry reads "Isobel Rodger begot in fornication between John Rodger in Overtown and Janet Lindsay in Wishawtown, was born on 12th Nov 1807 and Bap'd 20th May 1810" 

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Jambo-Jimbo
6 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

Yes and it verified all the research I had carried out, I was very Scottish

Ethnicity Estimate
Scotland 90%   (Scottish Central Lowlands)
Ireland  8%
England & Northwestern Europe  2%
 

 

I have to say mine pretty much matched the research that I had already done as well.

Irish/Scots - 44%

Northern France/Belgium - 34%

Briton - 18%

Scandinavian/Viking - 4%

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

One of my 3xG Grandmothers was born illegitimately. The parish record for her baptism showed fairly clearly how the minister viewed such births.

 

The entry reads "Isobel Rodger begot in fornication between John Rodger in Overtown and Janet Lindsay in Wishawtown, was born on 12th Nov 1807 and Bap'd 20th May 1810" 

 

Yeh, I love it when they come out with the 'Fornication' spiel.

 

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The Frenchman Returns
2 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Thanks.  :icon14:   I'll take a closer look at them.

I also used Ancestry DNA and can back up what @Jambo-Jimbo stated, it was accurate.

 

You can be contacted by others with a similar DNA, one came up as my 2nd – 3rd Cousin with 2% shared DNA, but he had the same name as my granny's maiden name and he was struggling with that part of his tree as it was confusing him. I was able to explain that two brothers married two sisters (not in a Hibs sort of way), one brother and sister being my mums parents.

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