Josh Doig - one that got away?

[jambonian]

Just now, Mr Brightside said:

David Turnbull, Jake Hastie, Chris Cadden, Alan Campbell, James Scott are all players recently developed by Motherwell.

 

St Mirren have developed some decent players too as well.

👍

[colinmaroon]

43 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Started slowly at County but now banging them in. Keeps it up and he'll make them a good fee.

 

 

They'll need it when they get relegated.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

In recent years Hearts have released, as youth players, Jason Cummings, Oli Shaw, Jamie Gullan, Connor Duthie, Aaron Dunsmore, Josh Doig, Josh Grigor and Dino Leddie who all ended up at Hibs.

[i8hibsh]

A. Zero

 

The question being how many hours kip have I lost thinking about Josh Doig no longer being at Hearts.

 

 

[Harry Potter]

25 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

A. Zero

 

The question being how many hours kip have I lost thinking about Josh Doig no longer being at Hearts.

 

 

Zero like myself.

[Pilmuir]

41 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

In recent years Hearts have released, as youth players, Jason Cummings, Oli Shaw, Jamie Gullan, Connor Duthie, Aaron Dunsmore, Josh Doig, Josh Grigor and Dino Leddie who all ended up at Hibs.

Which goes to show that even if some on here don’t rate Hearts youth development, Hibs certainly do.

 

Has anyone gone in the opposite direction?

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Pilmuir said:

Which goes to show that even if some on here don’t rate Hearts youth development, Hibs certainly do.

 

Has anyone gone in the opposite direction?

Not many. Of the current crop, U18 keeper Harris Spratt was at East Mains before coming to Hearts.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

51 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

In recent years Hearts have released, as youth players, Jason Cummings, Oli Shaw, Jamie Gullan, Connor Duthie, Aaron Dunsmore, Josh Doig, Josh Grigor and Dino Leddie who all ended up at Hibs.

 

I can't make up my mind if this is a good reflection of our youth system, the fact we had them and developed them to be good enough for a rival club, or the fact we released them reflects badly on us😄 I assume there's a different story behind every release. Cummings we know had a very bad injury. Although they've not exactly been great, Shaw and Gullan would be the ones that concern me as we've struggled to develop strikers. Meh to the rest, especially as Doig I assume had Hickey in front of him so an uncertain path to the first team.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

12 minutes ago, Pilmuir said:

Which goes to show that even if some on here don’t rate Hearts youth development, Hibs certainly do.

 

Has anyone gone in the opposite direction?

 

Although not strictly the same:

 

 

OK he wasn't on their books but Hibs had first shout and they blew it. And we should ever let them forget it.

Edited January 28, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Meadows]

That’s Cummings signed for Dundee , championship football for the next couple of seasons . 
was 4th choice at Shrewsbury and not getting a lot of game time . The kinda character he is he’ll be raring to go . If played as an out and out striker he’ll nab a few goals . 

[sadj]

1 hour ago, Section Q said:

And you're suggesting a seventeen year old Hearts fan would refuse a contract because he wasn't guaranteed a start..?

 

Yes , Thats entirely likely...Fan or not its their career. 

[sadj]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

A. Zero

 

The question being how many hours kip have I lost thinking about Josh Doig no longer being at Hearts.

 

 

**** me sideways with a double decker bus...has this ever happened , Sadj and I8 agreeing 🤯🤯🤯🤯

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 hours ago, Section Q said:

Certainly not us. 

 

Not sure how youth systems are measured. Outwith the OF, if it's minutes given to youth players and transfer fees brought in it would have to be between us and Motherwell. I don't see other non-OF teams developing talent like Hickey and Turnbull, and before that someone like Calum Paterson, and Jamie Walker who would have gone to Rangers if we'd accepted 750k or whatever it was. Before them we had Wallace, Gordon, Driver, Berra

 

Behind us and Well recently, maybe Hamilton?

Edited January 28, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Mr Brightside]

46 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I can't make up my mind if this is a good reflection of our youth system, the fact we had them and developed them to be good enough for a rival club, or the fact we released them reflects badly on us😄 I assume there's a different story behind every release. Cummings we know had a very bad injury. Although they've not exactly been great, Shaw and Gullan would be the ones that concern me as we've struggled to develop strikers. Meh to the rest, especially as Doig I assume had Hickey in front of him so an uncertain path to the first team.

Shaw has already been let go by Hibs and I suspect Gullan will be released at the end of the season. Gullan will be 22 at the end of the season and barely gets a game or a goal.

 

Not concerned at all that we let either of them go.

[Newton51]

Arsenal being linked with him on sky sports now. 

[HMFSee]

Someone told me that we had signed a young keeper from hibs who had an issue with josh doig (bullied was the term used but I cant vouch for that, I dont know). Does anyone know if we have signed a young goalkeeper who was previously at hibs? Happy to be wrong, just want to know if it can be verified that a young goalkeeper switched sides after doig.

[Meadows]

30 minutes ago, HMFSee said:

Someone told me that we had signed a young keeper from hibs who had an issue with josh doig (bullied was the term used but I cant vouch for that, I dont know). Does anyone know if we have signed a young goalkeeper who was previously at hibs? Happy to be wrong, just want to know if it can be verified that a young goalkeeper switched sides after doig.

There’s a you g keeper mentioned earlier, signed from Hibs named Harris Spratt . 

[MooseMich]

He was never offered a full-time contract at Hearts.  He played centre half for the 18s but Levein brought in an irish lad (since released) and gave him the contract .  The coaches wanted to keep Doig but Levein just didn't rate him...

[Last Laff]

15 minutes ago, MooseMich said:

He was never offered a full-time contract at Hearts.  He played centre half for the 18s but Levein brought in an irish lad (since released) and gave him the contract .  The coaches wanted to keep Doig but Levein just didn't rate him...

Correct. Nothing to do with Hickey.  

[CloustonHMFC]

51 minutes ago, MooseMich said:

He was never offered a full-time contract at Hearts.  He played centre half for the 18s but Levein brought in an irish lad (since released) and gave him the contract .  The coaches wanted to keep Doig but Levein just didn't rate him...

Someone should maybe inform his dad he wasn't offered a contract, then.

[Section Q]

13 hours ago, sadj said:

Yes , Thats entirely likely...Fan or not its their career. 

😁

[buzzbomb]

People can dress it up any way they like, but it was a mistake to release Doig. He wasn't just capable of playing left back. He can play left centre half. Not that we could do with a quick, left-sided centre half. They brought in a centre-half from ireland who they paid money for, who was murder, barely got a game and is now away. So, even at that level, it was a bad decision.

[Disco Ball]

17 hours ago, vegas-voss said:

It's actually mental what players and parents expect at such a young age.What would have been wrong to playing 2nd choice to Hickey for a year.To be honest it also sounds like our Dof ( Levein ) has been a bit too blunt to the parent.

I have a pal who was there .... and he says it was brutally blunt 

[MooseMich]

6 hours ago, CloustonHMFC said:

Someone should maybe inform his dad he wasn't offered a contract, then.

Thats just not true.  I know for a fact he didn't get offered a contract, his Dad told me at the time! Being a Jambo, Doig was gutted but was given no choice but go on trial at various clubs.  He was then offered 2 year contracts at Hibs, st Johnstone, Dunfermline, Dundee and Shrewsbury with weeks of leaving Hearts.

[MooseMich]

31 minutes ago, Disco Ball said:

I have a pal who was there .... and he says it was brutally blunt 

That's just not true.  All his  parents wanted was for him to be given a fair chance at Hearts.  He didn't choose to leave.  If I remember correctly the coaches even set him up with trials as they thought was so harshly treated.  

[MooseMich]

26 minutes ago, MooseMich said:

 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by MooseMich

[Stu_HMFC]

21 hours ago, Rick Sanchez said:

If we had Colt teams in the EoS players like Hickey and Doig could have 100 appearances against men before they even get a sniff at the first team.

 

All of them, Cochrane, Henderson, Moore etc would have benefited from it massively.

Agree with this. 

[Footballfirst]

Harris Spratt joined Hearts in 2018. Doig didn't leave Hearts until 2019.

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, buzzbomb said:

People can dress it up any way they like, but it was a mistake to release Doig. He wasn't just capable of playing left back. He can play left centre half. Not that we could do with a quick, left-sided centre half. They brought in a centre-half from ireland who they paid money for, who was murder, barely got a game and is now away. So, even at that level, it was a bad decision.

Jamin (Jay) Nwanze was the Irish lad. Went to Vale of Leithen on loan, but I think he's back in Ireland. 

[Pilmuir]

1 hour ago, MooseMich said:

Thats just not true.  I know for a fact he didn't get offered a contract, his Dad told me at the time! Being a Jambo, Doig was gutted but was given no choice but go on trial at various clubs.  He was then offered 2 year contracts at Hibs, st Johnstone, Dunfermline, Dundee and Shrewsbury with weeks of leaving Hearts.

Sounds like CL had decided he didn't want Doig around. It's annoying that such bad decisions have been made in recent years and it's going to feel a lot worse if Hibs secure a big fee for him.

[Independence]

22 hours ago, droid said:

We had Hickey, weren't to know he'd end up being touted for other(big) clubs as quickly as he did.

We believed Hickey was the better player, we let another in the same position and approx the same age go.

Hardly the  shite decision making some are making out.

Its football it happens

Surely you know the mentality of some KB's by now. Everything gets blamed on Levien, Queen Anne and Robbie Neilson.

[droid]

3 hours ago, Independence said:

Surely you know the mentality of some KB's by now. Everything gets blamed on Levien, Queen Anne and Robbie Neilson.

Mate it's boring 

[John Findlay]

If Hibs have had bids of the alleged £2M for Nisbet and £1M for Porteous, they will take them without hesitation.

 

[Disco Ball]

6 hours ago, MooseMich said:

That's just not true.  All his  parents wanted was for him to be given a fair chance at Hearts.  He didn't choose to leave.  If I remember correctly the coaches even set him up with trials as they thought was so harshly treated.  

Not the version of the meeting I heard ...  and I know who I trust as it came from a Club coach who was  friendly with his Dad.  In the opinion of my source Josh was harshly treated and in his opinion so was his father.  I will however when I next meet him advise him that you claim that his version of of the meeting with the DOF is complete pish 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Disco Ball

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 hours ago, Pilmuir said:

Sounds like CL had decided he didn't want Doig around. It's annoying that such bad decisions have been made in recent years and it's going to feel a lot worse if Hibs secure a big fee for him.

 

Or maybe Doig wanted guarantees of first team football and with Hickey streets ahead of him we couldn't provide that? We don't really know as you can't exactly trust what people on the internet say. 

 

Why would this feel bad for us if Hibs get a fee for him anyhow? We made the right choice - Hickey is a vastly better player than Doig and we got a very big fee for him. We didn't suffer by letting Doig go and he didn't suffer if he gets this move you think he'll get (apart from having to slum it any Hibs for a while). That would be win win for everyone. And we now have a more than decent LB in Kingsley. In fact, who would swap Kingsley for Doig right now?

Edited January 29, 2021 by ToqueJambo

[Alec Eiffel]

On 29/01/2021 at 10:58, Pilmuir said:

Sounds like CL had decided he didn't want Doig around. It's annoying that such bad decisions have been made in recent years and it's going to feel a lot worse if Hibs secure a big fee for him.

Not how I interpret it.   When kids at he Academy reach their final year the stark choice is that they are awarded a pro-contract by the club or they are released at end of the season to look for another club.  Generally, circa 5 players are awarded pro-contracts each season and now move to the reserves/colts. 

 

This last happened in Sept 2020  when Michael Aitken, Makenzie Kirk, Aidan Denholm, Harry Gordon and Goalkeeper Harris Spratt were offered contracts.  Before that 5 Academy players were offered pro-contracts in June 2019: Leon Watson, Jay Charleston-King, Arron Darge, Ryan Schiavone and Sean Docherty.

[OTT]

I'm maybe rehashing a previous post on the subject, but nonetheless. 

 

I've been extremely underwhelmed by our academy so far. Theres no argument that the academy had been gutted prior to Levein and Budges arrival, I absolutely accept that results were never going to be immediate and there would be a period where we're waiting on players to come through. However, I'm looking at the progress from then to now and I can count only a single success story in that time and its Andy Irving. We have brought through youngsters that haven't made it by the barrel load but I assume the intention is to succeed by bringing through Premiership or better quality youngsters. Not Championship quality or worse. When you look at other SPFL sides (specifically Motherwell), they seem to be managing to bring through youth much more regularly than ourselves which is disappointing as much was made about the academy back in 2014.

 

To the best of my knowledge, Arnott has been in charge of the academy since Levein came in. I'm really questioning if he's doing a good enough job. Since 2014 I think its likely we've spent 7 figures on our academy, in running costs etc. and we've not really made anything from it yet. Football is a results driven industry and he's not really got the results. I would say a success is players coming through into the first team and then being sold on for a profit. Hickey came from Celtic and was pretty much straight into the first team, so no cigar there. Its worth noting that Brian McClair apparently lives in Stockbridge and isn't currently doing anything. The same Brian McClair that oversaw Manchester United's academy from 2006 through to 2015. Then became the SFA performance director up until 2016. I'm not claiming we could afford him, but perhaps worth looking at head of Academy position as the results have not been there, the players that have came through haven't been to the required standard and if we're looking to make a success out of youth development, we should be going for the most qualified people to head this up and if you have someone so clearly qualified for the role, its worth asking the question at least. 

 

If we treat it like any other position, if the results aren't there you move them on. I'd argue that in nearly 7 years producing 1 player is unacceptable and if that is deemed acceptable then there are questions to ask of the club in its ambitions to be a club that successfully develops young talent. I'm not for a minute saying he's not a great coach, but as head of academy, I'd say the lack of success falls on his shoulders. I think there comes a point where you need to admit the rainbow isn't just over the next rise and assess if its worth continuing down the current path.