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HillmanHearts
23 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Nonsense. Good management is making sure you pay employees what you think  they are worth based on market conditions. 

We have spent obscene amounts of money on pish.

We have a home grown prospect who has a big chance of being really decent and we cant stretch to a few hundred quid or so extra ?

Good management could make Irving a real asset for Hearts.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

That's one aspect of good management to be sure.  I hope that RN  et al apply that good management to the other contracts they'll be offering, which should bring an end to the long list if duds we've signed.

 

In Irving's case, it's all water under the bridge, imo.

Agreed, hope they do. I suspect the discovery that after five years things need to be done differently has been clearly explained to Neilson and Savage. Probably the reason we are taking our time re signings. 
Re Irving the support is pretty evenly divided as to his worth so I think a parting of the ways probably is best course. 

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5 minutes ago, HillmanHearts said:

We have spent obscene amounts of money on pish.

We have a home grown prospect who has a big chance of being really decent and we cant stretch to a few hundred quid or so extra ?

Good management could make Irving a real asset for Hearts.

 

 

Depends on your view of his potential. Personally I don’t think we should spend a lot of time or money on a one-paced, slow midfielder who has a wand of a left foot and doesn’t even know his right foot exists. Mesut  Ozil was a one of a kind with those abilities who made it really big. Generally it’s not the type of skill set I’d like in my team. 

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12 minutes ago, HillmanHearts said:

We have spent obscene amounts of money on pish.

We have a home grown prospect who has a big chance of being really decent and we cant stretch to a few hundred quid or so extra ?

Good management could make Irving a real asset for Hearts.

 

 

Or we know we can do better, defensively inept 

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3 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

Not even sure what the issue here is.

 

No club bigger than Hearts will sign Irving as it is. He is so overrated it is ridiculous.

 

Scottish Championship within the year.

Think you are bang on the money. Wish him well, but unfortunately he is nowhere near good enough.

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alwaysthereinspirit
3 hours ago, HillmanHearts said:

We have spent obscene amounts of money on pish.

We have a home grown prospect who has a big chance of being really decent and we cant stretch to a few hundred quid or so extra ?

Good management could make Irving a real asset for Hearts.

 

 

Does anyone know what he’s looking for compared to what we’ve offered?

Few hundred quid is not two hundred but at least three. So 3 hundred a week over 52 weeks for say 3 years? He’s rumored on here to be making a 1000 a week now. 
I’d love a 30% raise. Also you said extra. So I’m assuming you meant extra on top of what raise we already offered that hasn’t been accepted so far. Maybe one day we’ll all get the real story. I won’t hold my breath.

 

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professorfate

I don’t get the hype over this guy he has a few nice touches but looked average in a pish league. I hope he doesn’t accept a new contract we can do better than him.

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11 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

From what I've heard, he has been offered a small fraction of the number you quoted, and that neither Savage nor RN are even talking to the lad or his agents.  What kind of way is that to treat a loyal employee?  Savage and Neilson are clearly lacking in motivational skills or basic management skills.

When you consider the money that has been wasted in recent years, this is an odd time to be squabbling over peanuts.  And make no mistake, we're talking about peanuts. 

Maybe they don't want him but want to ensure a fee, maybe he's been using an offer as leverage and we're calling his bluff. 

 

We really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, what's been said or done, and I'll bet Andy's brother's version is very different from Neilson's brother's version

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A_A wehatethehibs
7 hours ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

Does anyone know what he’s looking for compared to what we’ve offered?

Few hundred quid is not two hundred but at least three. So 3 hundred a week over 52 weeks for say 3 years? He’s rumored on here to be making a 1000 a week now. 
I’d love a 30% raise. Also you said extra. So I’m assuming you meant extra on top of what raise we already offered that hasn’t been accepted so far. Maybe one day we’ll all get the real story. I won’t hold my breath.

 


No, nobody knows and anyone professing to know anything is lying. 
 

I think basically from what I’ve read over this whole “saga” is he was wanting money “more befitting of a first team player” appears to be the recurring turn of phrase his agent would have passed on to the press and then filters through on this thread. 

 

So in other words he wants the same 2 or 3ish grand a week that Haring, Lee, Halliday and Damour are all probably on. - and that McEneff was given right in the middle of Andys contract talks which tells you a lot. 
 

Not totally unreasonable- if he were actually a reliable consistent performer. Which he isn’t. A fully fit Haring you know you’ll get 7/10 minimum and when on form, the best deep lying playmaker in Scotland outside the old firm. Halliday you know you’ll get a 6/10 “did a job, experienced, worked hard, physically battled” minimum, Lee chipped in with 10 assists in only about 12 games or whatever he played so he earned his. Damour obviously a flop. Mceneff looks a pretty competitive, super fit lad that started to show some real flashes and we’re looking forward to seeing him next season. But Irving? Wildly inconsistent with 2 or 3 8/10 passing displays against Raith and Alloa iirc but also several 3/10 no shows such as Ayr, Raith at home, QoS, Alloa in the league cup etc. The other thing he was rumoured to want is a guarantee of games which is just laughable looking at his last 2 years worth of performances for us which overall picture fall well well short of Hearts standards. 

 

So in summary he appears to think he is better than Hearts and will get £2k a week to go and sign in what’s rumoured to be German division 2 or 3 or something. Good luck to him there and subsequently back at Raith or Dunfermline 2 years later having played about 10 games in 2 seasons, regretting ever leaving Hearts. 

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11 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Would be surprised at that because it’s a good bit less than many of the other academy graduates who are close to the first team but not in it eg Cochrane, Smith, Logan etc. 

 

Another figure to throw in the mixer.

 

So many ITK'ers on this thread, all with different stories :lol:

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23 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:


No, nobody knows and anyone professing to know anything is lying. 
 

I think basically from what I’ve read over this whole “saga” is he was wanting money “more befitting of a first team player” appears to be the recurring turn of phrase his agent would have passed on to the press and then filters through on this thread. 

 

So in other words he wants the same 2 or 3ish grand a week that Haring, Lee, Halliday and Damour are all probably on. - and that McEneff was given right in the middle of Andys contract talks which tells you a lot. 
 

Not totally unreasonable- if he were actually a reliable consistent performer. Which he isn’t. A fully fit Haring you know you’ll get 7/10 minimum and when on form, the best deep lying playmaker in Scotland outside the old firm. Halliday you know you’ll get a 6/10 “did a job, experienced, worked hard, physically battled” minimum, Lee chipped in with 10 assists in only about 12 games or whatever he played so he earned his. Damour obviously a flop. Mceneff looks a pretty competitive, super fit lad that started to show some real flashes and we’re looking forward to seeing him next season. But Irving? Wildly inconsistent with 2 or 3 8/10 passing displays against Raith and Alloa iirc but also several 3/10 no shows such as Ayr, Raith at home, QoS, Alloa in the league cup etc. The other thing he was rumoured to want is a guarantee of games which is just laughable looking at his last 2 years worth of performances for us which overall picture fall well well short of Hearts standards. 

 

So in summary he appears to think he is better than Hearts and will get £2k a week to go and sign in what’s rumoured to be German division 2 or 3 or something. Good luck to him there and subsequently back at Raith or Dunfermline 2 years later having played about 10 games in 2 seasons, regretting ever leaving Hearts. 

Completely agree. 

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7 hours ago, alwaysthereinspirit said:

Does anyone know what he’s looking for compared to what we’ve offered?

Few hundred quid is not two hundred but at least three. So 3 hundred a week over 52 weeks for say 3 years? He’s rumored on here to be making a 1000 a week now. 
I’d love a 30% raise. Also you said extra. So I’m assuming you meant extra on top of what raise we already offered that hasn’t been accepted so far. Maybe one day we’ll all get the real story. I won’t hold my breath.

 

He is not on £1k now, he has been offered £1k and of course it is not a one year deal so if he signed it he would be on that for at least the next 3 years.

 

He wanted and was willing to accept a lot less than he is getting offered from elsewhere to stay at Hearts. 


Have any of the “he’s not good enough” brigade stopped to consider the fact that his performance levels dropped once the club low balled him and Neilson started being a bit of an ar8e with him?! I think at times we all forget how young many footballers are.

 

He is definitely not playing the big man and demanding big wages. I’ve said it before but the boy is heartbroken by what has happened. 

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10 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Depends on your view of his potential. Personally I don’t think we should spend a lot of time or money on a one-paced, slow midfielder who has a wand of a left foot and doesn’t even know his right foot exists. Mesut  Ozil was a one of a kind with those abilities who made it really big. Generally it’s not the type of skill set I’d like in my team. 

 

Said that yesterday , anyone who watched him last season will have seen the tumes he lost the ball or possession for the team because he couldn’t get round on to his wrong foot. 
 

Potential there but he could easily improve the wrong foot to a level that makes him a very attractive prospect for teams. I don’t think he is there yet. 

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From comments you see on here, we do seem to under-value our most promising youngsters but are happy to pay average tradesmen a lot more.

 

I thought Hickey was well worth £5,000 a week and although I haven't seen as much of Irving, I'm sure he'd be worth at least half of that.

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HillmanHearts
3 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

Said that yesterday , anyone who watched him last season will have seen the tumes he lost the ball or possession for the team because he couldn’t get round on to his wrong foot. 
 

Potential there but he could easily improve the wrong foot to a level that makes him a very attractive prospect for teams. I don’t think he is there yet. 

There have been numerous great players over the years who were very one footed. But I agree he's not the finished article yet. The defensive side of his game ,for a deep lying midfielder, needs work and he needs to impose himself more. But these things come with coaching, aplication and maturity. He's got great basic skills imo.

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10 minutes ago, 77Mackay77 said:

He is not on £1k now, he has been offered £1k and of course it is not a one year deal so if he signed it he would be on that for at least the next 3 years.

 

He wanted and was willing to accept a lot less than he is getting offered from elsewhere to stay at Hearts. 


Have any of the “he’s not good enough” brigade stopped to consider the fact that his performance levels dropped once the club low balled him and Neilson started being a bit of an ar8e with him?! I think at times we all forget how young many footballers are.

 

He is definitely not playing the big man and demanding big wages. I’ve said it before but the boy is heartbroken by what has happened. 

If he has been offered 1k it's because that's what the club think he is worth. The club can't afford to give out higher paying contracts just because that's what the player wants.

 

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The Treasurer
17 minutes ago, 77Mackay77 said:

He is not on £1k now, he has been offered £1k and of course it is not a one year deal so if he signed it he would be on that for at least the next 3 years.

 

He wanted and was willing to accept a lot less than he is getting offered from elsewhere to stay at Hearts. 


Have any of the “he’s not good enough” brigade stopped to consider the fact that his performance levels dropped once the club low balled him and Neilson started being a bit of an ar8e with him?! I think at times we all forget how young many footballers are.

 

He is definitely not playing the big man and demanding big wages. I’ve said it before but the boy is heartbroken by what has happened. 

As you seem to know his current salary and what he's been offered, I take it you also know which club has offered him more. Or are you just picking random figures like all the other ITK posters 

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23 minutes ago, 77Mackay77 said:

He is not on £1k now, he has been offered £1k and of course it is not a one year deal so if he signed it he would be on that for at least the next 3 years.

 

He wanted and was willing to accept a lot less than he is getting offered from elsewhere to stay at Hearts. 


Have any of the “he’s not good enough” brigade stopped to consider the fact that his performance levels dropped once the club low balled him and Neilson started being a bit of an ar8e with him?! I think at times we all forget how young many footballers are.

 

He is definitely not playing the big man and demanding big wages. I’ve said it before but the boy is heartbroken by what has happened. 


Maybe Neilson doesn’t rate him. The club have low balled him for a reason. Personally I’d like him to stay. It will be interesting to see how he gets on in his career. 

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6 minutes ago, HillmanHearts said:

There have been numerous great players over the years who were very one footed. But I agree he's not the finished article yet. The defensive side of his game ,for a deep lying midfielder, needs work and he needs to impose himself more. But these things come with coaching, aplication and maturity. He's got great basic skills imo.

Basic skills

 

Cant track back

Cant tackle

loses possession very easily - either by being pushed off the ball or because he needs a year to get on his good foot

 

Has a cracker of a left foot

can read the game and pick a pass

 

Needs to get round on his good foot to pick said pass therefore can look slow and ponderous

 


 

Over the years - the game is different now you need some sort of basic ability with your wrong foot. Said yesterday if that was me id be out there everyday working on it as that would make me an incredibly valuable asset. You don’t need coached to put time in yourself outside of training to learn these things. He is also 21 doing those things are things that could easily have been improved by him before now.

 

If he stays fair enough , if he goes I won’t lose any sleep or be pissed at the club. I might be harsh but i firmly believe a lot of what a player can learn and achieve is down to them and I have my reasons for that thought process.

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A_A wehatethehibs
Just now, Des Lynam said:


Maybe Neilson doesn’t rate him. The club have low balled him for a reason. Personally I’d like him to stay. It will be interesting to see how he gets on in his career. 


Stendel didn’t rate him either. Dropped him for Damour for the last 4 games after Hamilton 2-2 

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31 minutes ago, 77Mackay77 said:

He is not on £1k now, he has been offered £1k and of course it is not a one year deal so if he signed it he would be on that for at least the next 3 years.

 

He wanted and was willing to accept a lot less than he is getting offered from elsewhere to stay at Hearts. 


Have any of the “he’s not good enough” brigade stopped to consider the fact that his performance levels dropped once the club low balled him and Neilson started being a bit of an ar8e with him?! I think at times we all forget how young many footballers are.

 

He is definitely not playing the big man and demanding big wages. I’ve said it before but the boy is heartbroken by what has happened. 

Arite Mr Irving.🙃

 

He might not be demanding big wages but maybe his agent is. 
 

As for considering his performance levels dropping. They were poor under Stendel for the same reason they were this season. Needing too much time on the ball because he only has one foot. Its not a hard concept. Once the team was struggling and not getting the same time on the ball he faded out of things or if a team got in our faces he struggled. I dont remember a good game after QoTS where he was superb. The Morton game summed up where he is at for me and I think he has potential to be far better but thats on him. This season was a dick for players but he still hasn’t shown enough with that potential even with that being a factor.

 

As for being willing to accept much less to stay at Hearts if thats the advice his agent or family are giving him , he seriously needs new advisors. If as you say he has been offered 1k a week and its multi year - go back say no worries 1k a week for a year if its important for him to be at Hearts. Then he has a year to push himself forward and get the reward he could be worth be that at us or another team. 

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12 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


Maybe Neilson doesn’t rate him. The club have low balled him for a reason. Personally I’d like him to stay. It will be interesting to see how he gets on in his career. 

If the club have low balled him , Im 50/50 if he stays he needs to work on his weaker aspects and he could be a very valuable asset. 

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1 minute ago, sadj said:

If the club have low balled him , Im 50/50 if he stays he needs to work on his weaker aspects and he could be a very valuable asset. 


I agree. I know I’ve mentioned a few times why we would low ball him but I think that’s important. The club obviously see things we aren’t privy to. Maybe he doesn’t work as hard as he should? Maybe they think he doesn’t have the mentality or temperament to control things in the middle of the park. It sounds harsh but I’m glad under Savage we aren’t chucking contracts out to everyone. 

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upgotheheads
11 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


I agree. I know I’ve mentioned a few times why we would low ball him but I think that’s important. The club obviously see things we aren’t privy to. Maybe he doesn’t work as hard as he should? Maybe they think he doesn’t have the mentality or temperament to control things in the middle of the park. It sounds harsh but I’m glad under Savage we aren’t chucking contracts out to everyone. 

 

This is the thing we don't know, although there are folk on here who think they do🙂. On the subject of his mentality though, I don't think that's a problem, I've certainly noticed him shouting the odds at other players, or then again, maybe that's the problem.

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14 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:


I agree. I know I’ve mentioned a few times why we would low ball him but I think that’s important. The club obviously see things we aren’t privy to. Maybe he doesn’t work as hard as he should? Maybe they think he doesn’t have the mentality or temperament to control things in the middle of the park. It sounds harsh but I’m glad under Savage we aren’t chucking contracts out to everyone. 

I do agree and I know folk have said thry know him and he is a hardworking good lad , if it is as has been suggested there will be reasons. Bashing the club because we throw money about then we dont. Because we arent financially prudent with contracts then we are is just jkb though

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40 minutes ago, sadj said:

Basic skills

 

Cant track back

Cant tackle

loses possession very easily - either by being pushed off the ball or because he needs a year to get on his good foot

 

Has a cracker of a left foot

can read the game and pick a pass

 

Needs to get round on his good foot to pick said pass therefore can look slow and ponderous

 


 

Over the years - the game is different now you need some sort of basic ability with your wrong foot. Said yesterday if that was me id be out there everyday working on it as that would make me an incredibly valuable asset. You don’t need coached to put time in yourself outside of training to learn these things. He is also 21 doing those things are things that could easily have been improved by him before now.

 

If he stays fair enough , if he goes I won’t lose any sleep or be pissed at the club. I might be harsh but i firmly believe a lot of what a player can learn and achieve is down to them and I have my reasons for that thought process.

 

He has played less than 50 games for us so still very raw. Paul Hartley was at Raith when he was 21, John McGinn still at St Mirren.

 

I feel there is room for improvement with Irving and, if we believe he has the potential to kick on at Hearts, then his salary should reflect that (if only to ensure we are the ones who benefit, not his next club). I also feel he is the kind of player that will benefit from the SPL being more open.

 

It might come back to bite us, it might not. It really depends on who we bring in to replace him and maybe my real fear is that i do not trust our management to carry that out.

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1 hour ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:


No, nobody knows and anyone professing to know anything is lying. 
 

I think basically from what I’ve read over this whole “saga” is he was wanting money “more befitting of a first team player” appears to be the recurring turn of phrase his agent would have passed on to the press and then filters through on this thread. 

 

So in other words he wants the same 2 or 3ish grand a week that Haring, Lee, Halliday and Damour are all probably on. - and that McEneff was given right in the middle of Andys contract talks which tells you a lot. 
 

Not totally unreasonable- if he were actually a reliable consistent performer. Which he isn’t. A fully fit Haring you know you’ll get 7/10 minimum and when on form, the best deep lying playmaker in Scotland outside the old firm. Halliday you know you’ll get a 6/10 “did a job, experienced, worked hard, physically battled” minimum, Lee chipped in with 10 assists in only about 12 games or whatever he played so he earned his. Damour obviously a flop. Mceneff looks a pretty competitive, super fit lad that started to show some real flashes and we’re looking forward to seeing him next season. But Irving? Wildly inconsistent with 2 or 3 8/10 passing displays against Raith and Alloa iirc but also several 3/10 no shows such as Ayr, Raith at home, QoS, Alloa in the league cup etc. The other thing he was rumoured to want is a guarantee of games which is just laughable looking at his last 2 years worth of performances for us which overall picture fall well well short of Hearts standards. 

 

So in summary he appears to think he is better than Hearts and will get £2k a week to go and sign in what’s rumoured to be German division 2 or 3 or something. Good luck to him there and subsequently back at Raith or Dunfermline 2 years later having played about 10 games in 2 seasons, regretting ever leaving Hearts. 

There's a problem here though, and one Hearts need to come to terms with.

 

At 19/20/21 your lad may well not be the standard of guys at 24/25 years of age.  But how will we ever know if they will be?

 

Opinions, but to me Andy Irving has it in his locker to be a very good player.  If we want him to realise that, we need to show faith in him.  Someone else can pay him that and will.  Not only do we lose his ability on the field, but we lose the chance for us to cash in on the potential later.

 

Kinda need to take Andy Irving out of this, but it's a model Hearts need to start getting right as for a number of years, we've lost guys like Paterson, Nicholson, Walker and now Irving for heehaw.  Say what you want about them all individually but they're all good enough to play for Hearts and all good enough to command a fee.  I'd almost add Hickey to that but that was trickier to be fair as he broke through so early so it was really his first contract rather than second, so we maybe got what we could there.

 

I've no problem with bringing in signings on decent money of course, but we simply can't continually say we want to progress youth but not value them.

 

Caveat here is we don't know the ins and outs, but from the outside, it always looks to me that we don't offer our kids deals they deserve.  And as I say, if you want to only give money to finished articles... well we need to win euromillions!

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fancy a brew
26 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

There's a problem here though, and one Hearts need to come to terms with.

 

At 19/20/21 your lad may well not be the standard of guys at 24/25 years of age.  But how will we ever know if they will be?

 

Opinions, but to me Andy Irving has it in his locker to be a very good player.  If we want him to realise that, we need to show faith in him.  Someone else can pay him that and will.  Not only do we lose his ability on the field, but we lose the chance for us to cash in on the potential later.

 

Kinda need to take Andy Irving out of this, but it's a model Hearts need to start getting right as for a number of years, we've lost guys like Paterson, Nicholson, Walker and now Irving for heehaw.  Say what you want about them all individually but they're all good enough to play for Hearts and all good enough to command a fee.  I'd almost add Hickey to that but that was trickier to be fair as he broke through so early so it was really his first contract rather than second, so we maybe got what we could there.

 

I've no problem with bringing in signings on decent money of course, but we simply can't continually say we want to progress youth but not value them.

 

Caveat here is we don't know the ins and outs, but from the outside, it always looks to me that we don't offer our kids deals they deserve.  And as I say, if you want to only give money to finished articles... well we need to win euromillions!

 

Paterson made it clear he wasn't going to sign a new deal, and we got money for Walker when he left.

A club like Hearts will never be able to hang on to the very best young players, and if they want to maximize their earnings they'll be worth more as free agents.

 

It looks to me that Irving is a victim of the development fee system.

Let's say for example the club think he's worth 3k/week. If he leaves and the club get a 300k development fee they can then sign another 3k/week player and be 300k better off over a 2 year deal.

He's not in the category of 'we need to keep him at all costs'.

So he's been offered a deal which if he accepts, works for the club. If he thinks he'll be better off elsewhere so be it.

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1 hour ago, Des Lynam said:


I agree. I know I’ve mentioned a few times why we would low ball him but I think that’s important. The club obviously see things we aren’t privy to. Maybe he doesn’t work as hard as he should? Maybe they think he doesn’t have the mentality or temperament to control things in the middle of the park. It sounds harsh but I’m glad under Savage we aren’t chucking contracts out to everyone. 

So these are Savage's decisions to make ?

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Phil D. Corners

1k a week at Hearts is a bit more than a youth team graduate or reserve team player. 
 

Andy needs game time and to play Adult football. The offer implies his standing as a fringe player / non first team starter. 
 

 

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A_A wehatethehibs
1 hour ago, john thomas said:

So these are Savage's decisions to make ?


The wage structure certainly is his remit I would think. But the decision will be both him and Robbie on who’s quality and wanted (Smith and Kingsley signed extensions in January) vs who we want to empty (Frear, Berra, Irving etc)  Ultimately that’s what it boils down to. The club wants a better quality central midfielder than Irving brought in. And rightly so in my option as we’ve been absolute powderpuff there for years. 
 

I reckon if not for the development fee thing, we probably wouldn’t even have offered Irving an extension 

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8 hours ago, Smithee said:

Maybe they don't want him but want to ensure a fee, maybe he's been using an offer as leverage and we're calling his bluff. 

 

We really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, what's been said or done, and I'll bet Andy's brother's version is very different from Neilson's brother's version

 

Yes, there's always two sides to every story.  In this case, I think it has gone past the point of no return.

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5 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:


No, nobody knows and anyone professing to know anything is lying. 
 

I think basically from what I’ve read over this whole “saga” is he was wanting money “more befitting of a first team player” appears to be the recurring turn of phrase his agent would have passed on to the press and then filters through on this thread. 

 

So in other words he wants the same 2 or 3ish grand a week that Haring, Lee, Halliday and Damour are all probably on. - and that McEneff was given right in the middle of Andys contract talks which tells you a lot. 
 

Not totally unreasonable- if he were actually a reliable consistent performer. Which he isn’t. A fully fit Haring you know you’ll get 7/10 minimum and when on form, the best deep lying playmaker in Scotland outside the old firm. Halliday you know you’ll get a 6/10 “did a job, experienced, worked hard, physically battled” minimum, Lee chipped in with 10 assists in only about 12 games or whatever he played so he earned his. Damour obviously a flop. Mceneff looks a pretty competitive, super fit lad that started to show some real flashes and we’re looking forward to seeing him next season. But Irving? Wildly inconsistent with 2 or 3 8/10 passing displays against Raith and Alloa iirc but also several 3/10 no shows such as Ayr, Raith at home, QoS, Alloa in the league cup etc. The other thing he was rumoured to want is a guarantee of games which is just laughable looking at his last 2 years worth of performances for us which overall picture fall well well short of Hearts standards. 

 

So in summary he appears to think he is better than Hearts and will get £2k a week to go and sign in what’s rumoured to be German division 2 or 3 or something. Good luck to him there and subsequently back at Raith or Dunfermline 2 years later having played about 10 games in 2 seasons, regretting ever leaving Hearts. 

 

With you in the consistency. We have to think of Irving in terms of what he brings to the team and squad when assessing his value to us. His composure and passing are his best attributes, plus a decent dead ball. The return of Haring and Souttar will add a lot of composure and passing ability to the team. With McEneff, GMS and Walker, and probably another winger and midfielder, we might be wanting to build more of a dynamic attacking team than we've seen recently. Irving may be seen as a good option but not an essential player for us, hence the offer is probably good for a 20 year old with limited experience in the Premiership but maybe not as much as more experienced players will get.

 

Like others have said Irving has good qualities but is he built for the hectic nature of a typical Scottish Premiership midfield battle? He can produce that defence splitting pass in occasional games to win us points, like Adam can for Dundee, but we might need more from him than that. He's also never really controlled games in a way that a playmaker like Adam can, but he maybe could become that payer if he gets his head down and works at it for a couple of years. He's definitely not the finished article yet.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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5 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I thought Hickey was well worth £5,000 a week and although I haven't seen as much of Irving, I'm sure he'd be worth at least half of that.

 

:rofl:

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1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Yes, there's always two sides to every story.  In this case, I think it has gone past the point of no return.

I think that’s after the 14th. Will be interesting to see where he moves to. 

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Would Hearts be the only club which relates pay to age?  Seems strange to me that ability, performance and encouragement wouldn't come into it.

 

I would have thought a promising young player, Irving in this case, would have been worth more than a passenger like Damour but in the view of at least one poster on here, I'm clearly wrong.

 

Or maybe he's wrong.  Maybe he hasn't thought it through properly.  Maybe he's having an off day.  Maybe he actually is Damour.

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22 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Would Hearts be the only club which relates pay to age?  Seems strange to me that ability, performance and encouragement wouldn't come into it.

 

I would have thought a promising young player, Irving in this case, would have been worth more than a passenger like Damour but in the view of at least one poster on here, I'm clearly wrong.

 

Or maybe he's wrong.  Maybe he hasn't thought it through properly.  Maybe he's having an off day.  Maybe he actually is Damour.

If he’s been offered 1k a week as suggested it’s maybe due to that being what the club think he’s worth. Comparing what Irving and damour get paid is completely pointless as you don’t overpay someone else due to a previous signing being shite and not worth his wages. 

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Mr Brightside
32 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

Would Hearts be the only club which relates pay to age?  Seems strange to me that ability, performance and encouragement wouldn't come into it.

 

I would have thought a promising young player, Irving in this case, would have been worth more than a passenger like Damour but in the view of at least one poster on here, I'm clearly wrong.

 

Or maybe he's wrong.  Maybe he hasn't thought it through properly.  Maybe he's having an off day.  Maybe he actually is Damour.

Damour wasn’t signed as a passenger though. He was signed as a key midfield player for us from a higher level. It hasn’t worked out but there is sound logic to the wage he was offered.

 

A good example is Sam Nicholson, he went to the MLS for £4K a week, but for us he isn’t a £4K a week player. That wage is for an experienced star player. Just the realities of our budget.

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7 hours ago, sadj said:

 

Said that yesterday , anyone who watched him last season will have seen the tumes he lost the ball or possession for the team because he couldn’t get round on to his wrong foot. 
 

Potential there but he could easily improve the wrong foot to a level that makes him a very attractive prospect for teams. I don’t think he is there yet. 

 

Pros

 

Good passer of the ball

Decent shot from outside the box

 

Cons

 

One footed

One paced

Lacks defensive abilities.

 

He can still definitely work on his weaknesses but I'm not sure that a.) we should be breaking the bank to keep him or b.) he'll ever play at a higher level / bigger club than he currently is.

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A_A wehatethehibs
1 hour ago, Kiwidoug said:

Would Hearts be the only club which relates pay to age?  Seems strange to me that ability, performance and encouragement wouldn't come into it.

 

I would have thought a promising young player, Irving in this case, would have been worth more than a passenger like Damour but in the view of at least one poster on here, I'm clearly wrong.

 

Or maybe he's wrong.  Maybe he hasn't thought it through properly.  Maybe he's having an off day.  Maybe he actually is Damour.


Damour is shite so therefore we should pay a poor, inconsistent midfielder unproven in the Premiership Irving the same overpriced wages as him? Don’t get the logic

 

What we need to do: if we’re looking at a £2500 a week wage or thereabouts, or even more, £3-4000 a week given the slight war chest we’ve got from offloading all that Levein dross,  is sign someone much much better than either damour or irving who will want to come in, make a huge impact in the Premiership, and dominate. So then we’ll have Haring, McEneff, new Quality CM/CAM (Djoum type engine room athlete IMO or maybe a Bruno Aguiar European type, something a bit different), and Halliday as the utility man, then Connor Smith and McGill looking to get an opportunity from the bench or step in if there’s an injury and put themselves in contention through good performances. That’ll be much improved from when we had a dross midfield of Bozanic, Clare, Irving, Damour that flopped to the bottom of the table with a disastrous outcome for the club.

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alwaysthereinspirit
7 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

From comments you see on here, we do seem to under-value our most promising youngsters but are happy to pay average tradesmen a lot more.

 

I thought Hickey was well worth £5,000 a week and although I haven't seen as much of Irving, I'm sure he'd be worth at least half of that.

What a player is “worth” is easier when there’s no real budget. English premier league teams pay crazy money for average players. At the end of the day it’s not even real money when it comes from TV contracts. They don’t have to do anything to make it.

Hearts are on a real budget. Season ticket sales and walk-ups, concessions (please buy a pie and bovril) and a pittance from TV. There’s not much extra going around. A good cup run helps but no guarantee. Irving and players like him will never make a fortune in Scotland. Decent living but you won’t be rich. Many many English players are making more a week than we probably pay any player in our squad a year. 

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1 hour ago, iainmac said:

 

Pros

 

Good passer of the ball

Decent shot from outside the box

 

Cons

 

One footed

One paced

Lacks defensive abilities.

 

He can still definitely work on his weaknesses but I'm not sure that a.) we should be breaking the bank to keep him or b.) he'll ever play at a higher level / bigger club than he currently is.

Slows the whole game down being too deliberate with his passing. 

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Don't  get this one-footed business.  How many of our right footed players used there left foot apart to stand on?  I think there's  a bit of left-footism going on. 😁  come on the lefties.

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8 minutes ago, RENE said:

Don't  get this one-footed business.  How many of our right footed players used there left foot apart to stand on?  I think there's  a bit of left-footism going on. 😁  come on the lefties.

 

I agree. 

 

How many one-footed right-footers can anyone name? Was John Colquhoun two-footed? Honestly didn't notice at the time.

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1 minute ago, 4marsbars said:

 

I agree. 

 

How many one-footed right-footers can anyone name? Was John Colquhoun two-footed? Honestly didn't notice at the time.

 

12 minutes ago, RENE said:

Don't  get this one-footed business.  How many of our right footed players used there left foot apart to stand on?  I think there's  a bit of left-footism going on. 😁  come on the lefties.

There is a difference between being one footed and being “one footed” perfect example is when he took the ball across the pitch v Morton and couldn’t get it on his left to pass it and ran the ball out of play. Its really not difficult to learn to clip the ball or play a basic pass with your wrong foot. So far Andy hasnt shown that. It shows when you think he is thinking slowly and its more getting it to his left to make the pass that split second can be massive. Add that to his defensive capability and it is difficult to say how much the positives outweigh the neigatives. Wee bit of work and he could be a very very good footballer the potential is there. 

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