Sherbet Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 We can only hope it's nothing trivial !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Feel sorry for their genuine supporters. Wish it was Hibs. Hope they are liquidated for their role in having us expelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK2020 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Yes! Kill them and their celtc shop now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Footballfirst said: It's quite a recent thing (Jan/Feb) so perhaps unlikely to part of a police investigation this quickly. Yes, that's what I thought as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, husref musemic said: the police wouldn't be involved in that. Maybe not but we will find out in due course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingersreid Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Alex Ferguson's turnstile (allegedly) coming back to haunt them? This has my curiosity , what’s this about ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, wavydavy said: It seems the issue is not related to the players and staff more relating to contracts. Maybe something along the lines of Contractors being registered as limited company and paying themselves dividends etc when perhaps they should be seen as permannent employess and therefore liable for PAYE etc. That is purely my take on what I have read it might be nothing like that. Would contractors be the responsibility of the club? I doubt it unless the connections "were not at arm's length". While there are tax consequences as you describe, these "employees" would be sacrificing rights under the Employment legislation. The issue seems to be one connected with PAYE/NIC and with police being involved at what seems to be an early stage, things look serious for the club. There is no indication that HMRC are drivimg things but if/when they are involved someone could be for the high jump. HMRC's first port of call is usually for a negotiated settlement but when there is a prima facie hint of fraud, prosecution is a strong possibility. Edited December 2, 2020 by JamboAl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 minute ago, 3fingersreid said: This has my curiosity , what’s this about ???? It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen. It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF. Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago. It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaso Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 I absolutely detest Celtic and Hibs but these scumbags are right up there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, JamboAl said: Would contractors be the responsibility of the club? I doubt it unless the connections "were not at arm's length". While there are tax consequences as you describe, these "employees" would be sacrificing rights under the Employment legislation. The issue seems to be one connected with PAYE/NIC and with police being involved at what seems to be an early stage, things look serious for the club. There is no indication that HMRC are drivimg things but if/when they are involved someone could be for the high jump. HMRC's first port of call is usually for a negotiated settlement but when there is a prima facie hint of fraud, prosecution is a strong possibility. I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part. I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer. If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments. I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 4 hours ago, neilnunb said: Does it stem back to 1986? 😏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingersreid Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 26 minutes ago, wavydavy said: It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen. It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF. Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago. It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way. Cheers , certainly can’t say I’ve heard of that before 👍🏻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, wavydavy said: It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen. It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF. Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago. It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way. By law you only have to keep 7 years of records, I cants see something that happened a long long time ago when another regime was in charge, having anything to do with this, it looks odd that the Police were called in rather than just coming clean to HMRC? the the auditors discover something? did a director discover something? but remember the Board approved this, what gthe THIS is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheatfieldWarrior Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Wee Mikey said: Och, they can always pull through by selling merchadise for their chums. 😁 This picture never gets old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said: Cheers , certainly can’t say I’ve heard of that before 👍🏻 The press reports at the time (1978 I think) suggested that Aberdenn had tried to get AF as their Manager the previous season and he declined their offer. However they had dropped down the league the following season and AF decided to join Aberdeen and tried to talk one of the St Mirren players into going with him. He apparently made no secret of the fact he was going to Aberdeen and he had not to his own club and they had not been approached by Aberdeen to speak to him. St Mirren sacked him and he took them to a tribunal which he lost. But there have been a couple of other suggestions as to why he was sacked which were not covered so widely by the media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said: By law you only have to keep 7 years of records, I cants see something that happened a long long time ago when another regime was in charge, having anything to do with this, it looks odd that the Police were called in rather than just coming clean to HMRC? the the auditors discover something? did a director discover something? but remember the Board approved this, what gthe THIS is? Hagar, you have taken this post the wrong way mate. I was not suggesting this was anything to do with their current situation. It was mentioned in another post about the allegations directed at Alex Ferguson which another poster did not know about so this was why I posted this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 😒 Bet you were the wee git that told all the other kids that there was no such thing as Santa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheatfieldWarrior Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said: Please God I hope this is bad, so bad, I promised santa I will be such a good boy in 2021 if this is bad, no more coke and hookers I promise, Please let them go through a sevco event You say Sevco, I say Clydebank..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, wavydavy said: Hagar, you have taken this post the wrong way mate. I was not suggesting this was anything to do with their current situation. It was mentioned in another post about the allegations directed at Alex Ferguson which another poster did not know about so this was why I posted this. No worries, It did look odd, I just hope that the club will be hit hard in the pocket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagar the Horrible Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, WheatfieldWarrior said: You say Sevco, I say Clydebank..... That would give me a tickle in my private place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Kiwidoug said: Feel sorry for their genuine supporters. Wish it was Hibs. Hope they are liquidated for their role in having us expelled. I have stopped having any empathy for any other clubs predicaments and their supporter's, I didn't see many having sympathy apart from Rangers fans and that was only because Celtic were awarded the league title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 40 minutes ago, wavydavy said: I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part. I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer. If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments. I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC. A big, big issue for HMRC with employers being more creative. Lots of examples recently. IIR35. https://www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/tax-avoidance-dont-get-caught-out https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/backlash-against-tax-avoidance-clampdown-t3t8j85cx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 27 minutes ago, lou said: I have stopped having any empathy for any other clubs predicaments and their supporter's, I didn't see many having sympathy apart from Rangers fans and that was only because Celtic were awarded the league title Very true. Some had a good laugh. I recall that very clearly. As I have posted before, he who laughs last. £4.7m from our supporters in just one year must make them sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Sherbet said: We can only hope it's nothing trivial !!! +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingersreid Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, wavydavy said: The press reports at the time (1978 I think) suggested that Aberdenn had tried to get AF as their Manager the previous season and he declined their offer. However they had dropped down the league the following season and AF decided to join Aberdeen and tried to talk one of the St Mirren players into going with him. He apparently made no secret of the fact he was going to Aberdeen and he had not to his own club and they had not been approached by Aberdeen to speak to him. St Mirren sacked him and he took them to a tribunal which he lost. But there have been a couple of other suggestions as to why he was sacked which were not covered so widely by the media. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NANOJAMBO Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, wavydavy said: I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part. I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer. If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments. I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC. If it's a dispute over whether a guy is/isn't a contractor, this isn't a police matter. Given that the police are involved I'd guess there's a suspicion of fraud/theft. StM have allegedly informed HMRC that the police are involved so that suggests they've had a HMRC demand for (late) payment and can't pay it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said: This has my curiosity , what’s this about ???? The rumour was back in the day when he was there as manager he got the cash taken at a turnstile. I stress it was a rumour and I don't think anything ever surfaced to give it genuine credence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo89 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, wavydavy said: I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part. I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer. If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments. I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC. 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: A big, big issue for HMRC with employers being more creative. Lots of examples recently. IIR35. https://www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/tax-avoidance-dont-get-caught-out https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/backlash-against-tax-avoidance-clampdown-t3t8j85cx The IR35 reforms were delayed due to Covid at in March this year. As things currently stand, it is the contractor, not the employer, whom the onus is placed on. In this case, it wouldn’t be the club in trouble for their “overuse” of contractors as this is currently within the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Leaf Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 hours ago, Vlad Magic said: One is a horrible disease that everybody is desperate to avoid like the plague. The other is Covid. Nice one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGorgie Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 If the police are involved then it’s more serious than tax irregularities. HMRC inspectors pursue tax and NI issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Famous 1874 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Tick tock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 I know a guy who had a nice motor and he mentioned the previous owner was a St Mirren director - Maybe not doing the P60s for benefits in kind? That would be missed PAYE & NI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4nny_ Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Pleasing. Horrible little shitty club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19052012 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 That money was just resting in their account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1902hewat Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 If the police are involved, then it’s not IR35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 10 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said: Please God I hope this is bad, so bad, I promised santa I will be such a good boy in 2021 if this is bad, no more coke and hookers I promise, Please let them go through a sevco event yup you can keep the socks and dodgy aftershave, this would be a much more pleasing present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Die and die slowly and painfully you cheating sods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Be a shame for the town if they died...its the only reason folk actually go there. Hope its the first of many shitty wee clubs to suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 8 hours ago, wavydavy said: I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part. I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer. If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments. I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC. Re your 2nd para,. status (ie self employed or PAYE) claims are something HMRC deal with on a daily basis and would rarely be a police matter. The ultimate arbiter would be a tribunal. The fact that the club has reported itself to the Police sounds a bit like you committing an offence and going to the police station to hand yourself in and if that's the case, one can assume the auditor has highlighted a serious problem and advised the club it would better if they did so. It would be a crying shame if this resulted in the club going into admin and being docked points (or even worse) which would surely result in relegation😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8ac Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Saint Mirren have not issued any statement denying that they are being investigated so, by implication, it seems likely they are under investigation for possible criminal activity. If they are eventually convicted of financial crime, what action might SPFL take against them? Expulsion? Relegation? They certainly would have been able to pay players more than if they had been abiding by the rules. And would Hearts, as perhaps the club who suffered most by any such criminal conduct on the part of St Mirren, be compensated by SPFL and immediately restored to the top division in place of St Mirren.? I would expect a statement in due course from Police Scotland outlining their findings and whether they are making a report to the Procurator Fiscal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 14 hours ago, David Black said: I might have missed it , but what was the outcome into the SPFL investigation into St.Mirren and Covid. They have confirmed that Covid actually started in Paisley, and it was then taken to China by a takeaway owner visiting his family in Huwan over Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 14 hours ago, Cruyff said: Non payment of Tax and NI Hope they feckin die. That wouldn't warrant (pardon the pun) a police investigation. I've no idea what it relates to, but would have to be some potential criminal element to it that calls for an investigation. If you fail to pay tax, VAT or employers NI contributions, HMRC come after you. Having said that, I concur fully with your concluding comment. My perfect season would be Hearts promoted and SC winners, St Mirren folded, Rangers prevent Celtic's 10iar, but bankrupt themselves in the process and go into admin / liquidation 2. Celtic shareholders to spend the next 10 years raising resolutions about how Rangers cheated them out of 10iar, while the money men at the club completely ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Could be something along these lines? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47028247 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Slog Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 10 hours ago, 19052012 said: That money was just resting in their account. rofl Seriously, I hope this is just the start of many of those who tried to shaft us meeting their doom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 If the police are involved it’s most likely fraud or money laundering. Non payment of tax would be under jurisdiction of HMRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haken Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 As @Hagar the Horrible says, the referral to the Police is the interesting development. HMRC has all the powers it needs to investigate and prosecute irregularities that fall within its remit. If something has been referred to Police Scotland, that would suggest something outwith the remit of HMRC is awry. Pure speculation on my part, but fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsofgold Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 If the police are involved it's fraud, theft or some other criminal enterprise. HMRC would only call in their own investigators if there was an issue with 'accounting' for tax or NI issues. The police investigate actual or potential criminal events. I'm hoping for something utterly catastrophic that send these see you next tuesday's into oblivion. Nice early Christmas present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Black Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 7 hours ago, RobNox said: They have confirmed that Covid actually started in Paisley, and it was then taken to China by a takeaway owner visiting his family in Huwan over Christmas. That confirms what I have heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 28 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said: If the police are involved it's fraud, theft or some other criminal enterprise. HMRC would only call in their own investigators if there was an issue with 'accounting' for tax or NI issues. The police investigate actual or potential criminal events. I'm hoping for something utterly catastrophic that send these see you next tuesday's into oblivion. Nice early Christmas present. I am not sure anyone other than Police Scotland and St Mirren know what the Police involvemnt is. The report I read suggested that it was St Mirren who actually notifed the Police & HMRC. I would imagine they have done that to make things look as good as possible for them in the circumstances in that they will be seen to have done the right thing once they became aware of whatever the problem is. It may well be that Police Scotland look at it and say move on nothing for us here!! It could be totally diifferent of course and they may investigate further and charges could be brought. But that is just speculation which is what most of these posts are on this read. So nobody really knows what has or will happen at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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