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Dusk_Till_Dawn
12 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

"Plans are great, until they go wrong". Unfortunately until one of us wins the Euromillions we can only watch in frustration as the millionaires make silly errors. Better to be lucky than smart!


We’re heading rapidly towards a decade of mediocrity. Even the Main Stand - it’s gone way over the estimates and it’s not like she’s paid for it.

 

The benefactors are her bullet proof vest. But the fact is, we’re only going backwards despite their money 

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15 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

 

Why should I have plans for an 'ousting'? A growing number of the supporters are losing faith in her and her running of the club. How long does she stick around while her popularity starts to wane further? I'm not expecting you to answer any of these questions by the way, I know it doesn't fit your mantra to actually address criticisms of the hierarchy.


Surely you must have a thought process to how you wish to proceed after you oust her? Thats especially important during a time of global crisis. You can’t have the thought process of get her out thats all I want , then its up to you lot to sort it , you must have an idea what you want after or where you want to go. (Football side apart) 
 

Why are you no longer a pledger? 

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kingantti1874
15 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

 

When she took over, the club was to be self sufficient. The club relies on FOH subs and benefactors to keep it profitable.

 

When you talk about the capital investment in infrastructure, do you mean the stand that was around £10m over budget? Or the £4m in the academy that's yet to yield one homegrown talent since it was overhauled by the fraud in 2015? Or the £1m pitch that was ruined when we held a free concert at Tynecastle?

 

 

Which, as I'm sure you already know, is why I've not said we should demand she goes now. We keep hearing that the benefactors aren't going anywhere when she does step down, is that not the case?

 

If we're reliant on benefactors to keep Hearts financially afloat, is that not a bit worrying? And does that not go against the model she wanted to put into place at the very beginning?

 


Its a really really simple point. we aren’t really dependent on benefactors to keep the club afloat are we! . If we didn’t have the money provided by our benefactors  we wouldn’t have spent the money. Understand? 

 

You have a valid point when you question if the money could have been used more effectively, I don’t think ANYONE would question that - but that point gets lost in amongst some drivel..

 

hibs.net pish repeated by hearts fans

 

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Nunya Business
48 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

"Plans are great, until they go wrong". Unfortunately until one of us wins the Euromillions we can only watch in frustration as the millionaires make silly errors. Better to be lucky than smart!


Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for something better. Some people might be content with mediocrity but others are keen for the clubs potential to actually be filled.

 

30 minutes ago, sadj said:


Surely you must have a thought process to how you wish to proceed after you oust her? Thats especially important during a time of global crisis. You can’t have the thought process of get her out thats all I want , then its up to you lot to sort it , you must have an idea what you want after or where you want to go. (Football side apart) 
 

Why are you no longer a pledger? 


Disillusionment mostly. The Foundation is more beholden to the club than I feel comfortable with. Their do nothing attitude when we were all screaming for Leveins head was pretty telling for me. Happy to take the plaudits, not so good at actually putting their head above the parapet when things aren’t going so well. 

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Nunya Business
1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:


Its a really really simple point. we aren’t really dependent on benefactors to keep the club afloat are we! . If we didn’t have the money provided by our benefactors  we wouldn’t have spent the money. Understand? 

 

You have a valid point when you question if the money could have been used more effectively, I don’t think ANYONE would question that - but that point gets lost in amongst some drivel..

 

hibs.net pish repeated by hearts fans

 


Who said afloat? I didn’t. I said profitable. If it’s not a big deal that we use benefactors money, then it wouldn’t be a big deal if James Anderson walked when Ann left, would it? Since we wouldn’t spend the money we don’t have.  
 

I’ll bow to your superior knowledge of what is being said on Hibs.net, their opinions on anything don’t interest me in the slightest. 

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10 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:


Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for something better. Some people might be content with mediocrity but others are keen for the clubs potential to actually be filled.

 


Disillusionment mostly. The Foundation is more beholden to the club than I feel comfortable with. Their do nothing attitude when we were all screaming for Leveins head was pretty telling for me. Happy to take the plaudits, not so good at actually putting their head above the parapet when things aren’t going so well. 

Fair enough. Not sure beholden to the club is correct they are should be one and the same. I also get where you are coming from about doing nothing but I think thats a difficult thing without alienating people on either side. You jump up and down piblicly you piss pledgers off , you do nothing publicly you piss off pledgers. I dont think looking at the FoH as a means to voice the concerns of a percentage is what it shiuld be for. When you stop pledging does it ask why? If so then i assume any pledgers who stopped and said why would have quietly been mentioned 

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19 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:


Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for something better. Some people might be content with mediocrity but others are keen for the clubs potential to actually be filled.

 


Disillusionment mostly. The Foundation is more beholden to the club than I feel comfortable with. Their do nothing attitude when we were all screaming for Leveins head was pretty telling for me. Happy to take the plaudits, not so good at actually putting their head above the parapet when things aren’t going so well. 

That's why % shareholdings are important in business - they make the difference between having no real voice, influence and control. Prior to June FOH had no real voice, now you could say they have influence, but they don't yet have control.

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Nunya Business
1 minute ago, sadj said:

Fair enough. Not sure beholden to the club is correct they are should be one and the same. I also get where you are coming from about doing nothing but I think thats a difficult thing without alienating people on either side. You jump up and down piblicly you piss pledgers off , you do nothing publicly you piss off pledgers. I dont think looking at the FoH as a means to voice the concerns of a percentage is what it shiuld be for. When you stop pledging does it ask why? If so then i assume any pledgers who stopped and said why would have quietly been mentioned 

 

I just cancelled my DD with bank, so couldn't tell you. The Foundation comes across as nothing more than a vehicle to ask people for money, when it comes to matters of serious importance. In my eyes, and maybe the eyes of others but I won't pretend to speak for them, the Foundation has a duty to represent the fans in matters pertaining to the clubs future.

 

Does anyone think it's appropriate that the Foundation have to ask Hearts permission before they make a statement?

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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


We’re heading rapidly towards a decade of mediocrity. Even the Main Stand - it’s gone way over the estimates and it’s not like she’s paid for it.

 

The benefactors are her bullet proof vest. But the fact is, we’re only going backwards despite their money 

Sure - I wish the 5 year plan had been brilliant in inception and execution, but it got derailed as soon as Neilson left the first time... Where are we now? Back in year 1 TBH but at least this time Neilson is more experienced, Levein is (hopefully) not being called for advice, and we are in what should be an easier Championship seeking promotion...Budge has wasted a lot money partly by making poor decisions, partly by not making hard decisions and partly through misfortune...Should she really be ponying up some cash to the club as compensation for her mistakes? Opinions will be divided on that. Personally I think she has given a lot to the club and done her best but just like on the football pitch sometimes the best intentions and effort come to nothing. I wouldn't say she owes Hearts anything IMO.

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9 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

I just cancelled my DD with bank, so couldn't tell you. The Foundation comes across as nothing more than a vehicle to ask people for money, when it comes to matters of serious importance. In my eyes, and maybe the eyes of others but I won't pretend to speak for them, the Foundation has a duty to represent the fans in matters pertaining to the clubs future.

 

Does anyone think it's appropriate that the Foundation have to ask Hearts permission before they make a statement?

In so far as they are owners in waiting - Yes.

 

As far as donations to FOH go. They are donations. You get nothing in return unless you want to get involved in the governance. We are all free to contribute, or not, to FOH. You could donate directly to the club, but you won't get invited to the board meetings still...

 

The other choice is to be a customer - buy tickets and be, erm, entertained or get mechandise. The choice is all yours...

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Nunya Business
Just now, Spellczech said:

In so far as they are owners in waiting - Yes.

 

That's the biggest joke of them all then. Nothing more than a fundraising committee.

 

"Please give us your money, but don't ask questions."

 

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Budge has wasted a lot money

 

Let's not let this point get lost amongst the rest. She could do with explaining why the tender process for the Main Stand ended with a family member being awarded the contract. Especially when that contractor had no experience of a job of that size.

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2 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

That's the biggest joke of them all then. Nothing more than a fundraising committee.

 

"Please give us your money, but don't ask questions."

 

 

Let's not let this point get lost amongst the rest. She could do with explaining why the tender process for the Main Stand ended with a family member being awarded the contract. Especially when that contractor had no experience of a job of that size.

What other charities do you donate to and get a say in the management of? Donations are donations! It's your responsibility to ensure they are already doing something you agree with ie Cats Protection care for stray and mistreated cats. They might occasionally ask donors "what can we do better?" but you cannot expect to run them for £20pcm

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Nunya Business
Just now, Spellczech said:

What other charities do you donate to and get a say in the management of? Donations are donations! It's your responsibility to ensure they are already doing something you agree with ie Cats Protection care for stray and mistreated cats. They might occasionally ask donors "what can we do better?" but you cannot expect to run them for £20pcm

 

So the Foundation of Hearts and Cancer Research are the same thing now, aye? Ok.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
13 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

In so far as they are owners in waiting - Yes.


that stifles dissent though doesn’t it? Ann gets to have her cake and eat it - make mistakes but leave supporters who are piling in hundreds of thousands of pounds with no voice to challenge her.

 

FOH showed themselves up badly with all the statements around our demotion. In short, happy to pick Budge-sanctioned fights but not so much as a peep against her, ever. I’ve lost all confidence in them but I’ll carry on paying my £50 a month. What I refuse to do is contribute any more, like the money for a cup final ticket! **** that. Never slow in coming forward when they want more cash

 

 

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After all this Covid is a memory and when Ann eventually relinquishes control, we can't just have FoH running the football club. We will still need a chairman, a consortium with a bit of cash behind them to run the club alongside FoH. I've said for years that while FoH are contributing brilliantly, not every single contributor will be able to do it forever. Lives change. People die, get married, have a family, move away, lose jobs, retire, become disillusioned with the whole club among many other things and may not be able to contribute financially for these reasons. What do we do then? Hopefully you'd think that a new generation of fans will pledge monthly but if Hearts don't start raising the profile of the club, start getting top 3/4 every season then the interest in the club will demise over the years and contributions will dry up. I first made this point three years ago and now i am witnessing our slow demise in the Championship already so things have to start picking up pretty quickly.

As for players, the expression speculate to accumulate comes to mind. For too long now we have ignored some of the best talent around us and watched Hibs and Aberdeen pick the best of the bunch available and i use them as an example of similar finance available. In fact i reckon we are much better off than either of them. Even Motherwell to a lesser extent have made some shrewd signings these last few years. These clubs have been fighting it out for third and fourth positions in the premier in recent seasons so why aren't we? The club needs a complete overhaul from the top to the academy, and soon or else we will find ourselves in this position for many a season to come, never mind this one.

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25 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

I just cancelled my DD with bank, so couldn't tell you. The Foundation comes across as nothing more than a vehicle to ask people for money, when it comes to matters of serious importance. In my eyes, and maybe the eyes of others but I won't pretend to speak for them, the Foundation has a duty to represent the fans in matters pertaining to the clubs future.

 

Does anyone think it's appropriate that the Foundation have to ask Hearts permission before they make a statement?


Do they? I would imagine it depends on what it is about if true. 
 

The clubs future - as in the club being around for a long time.....

 

Not the clubs future as in who is manager today or tomorrow. Thats one of the biggest problems with it is people see it and think here i paid my monies so i get a say in running the club day to day. I know thats not what you are saying but its how many do seem to see it. We appoint members and they represent the FoH and make decisions for us. If it is relevant then the members are balloted. Seems straightforward to me. Personally I feel we are in good hands commercially and therefore financially but I think the footballing side is a calamity
 

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Nunya Business
34 minutes ago, sadj said:


Do they? I would imagine it depends on what it is about if true. 
 

The clubs future - as in the club being around for a long time.....

 

Not the clubs future as in who is manager today or tomorrow. Thats one of the biggest problems with it is people see it and think here i paid my monies so i get a say in running the club day to day. I know thats not what you are saying but its how many do seem to see it. We appoint members and they represent the FoH and make decisions for us. If it is relevant then the members are balloted. Seems straightforward to me. Personally I feel we are in good hands commercially and therefore financially but I think the footballing side is a calamity
 


I get that we’re fan owned and not fan run, but my point is that serious matters like Levein or the overspend on the Main Stand or the state of the pitch after the concert are followed by complete silence from the body that’s meant to represent us. They have to ask permission from the hierarchy at the club to make a statement on anything, which is such a laughable conflict of interest. 
 

I just don’t believe in the model anymore. I don’t feel like any of the board members represent the average supporter, the documentary showed them to be the type of people who’re just happy to be there. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
4 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:


I get that we’re fan owned and not fan run, but my point is that serious matters like Levein or the overspend on the Main Stand or the state of the pitch after the concert are followed by complete silence from the body that’s meant to represent us. They have to ask permission from the hierarchy at the club to make a statement on anything, which is such a laughable conflict of interest. 
 

I just don’t believe in the model anymore. I don’t feel like any of the board members represent the average supporter, the documentary showed them to be the type of people who’re just happy to be there. 


Agreed.

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54 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


that stifles dissent though doesn’t it? Ann gets to have her cake and eat it - make mistakes but leave supporters who are piling in hundreds of thousands of pounds with no voice to challenge her.

 

FOH showed themselves up badly with all the statements around our demotion. In short, happy to pick Budge-sanctioned fights but not so much as a peep against her, ever. I’ve lost all confidence in them but I’ll carry on paying my £50 a month. What I refuse to do is contribute any more, like the money for a cup final ticket! **** that. Never slow in coming forward when they want more cash

 

 

How much has FOH actually put into Hearts so far? They paid money towards the capital spend that was the new stand but I'm sure questions will have been asked about the overruns...They paid 700k as donations in 2020 to June but prior to that was it not money going towards paying back Bidco for shares? My point is that in pure donations, not that much has been squandered on duff players and managers...So do they really have the right to publicly question Budge? or make pronouncements to the media as if they already own the club? I don't think they do TBH...

 

As for "asking for cash" - they are a charity and as far as I am aware the directors don't take a salary ( I certainly hope they don't take any more than expenses, or else I'd consider volunteering myself as I have the qualifications to do both the legal and the Finance roles that are currently open) - It might be better use of my time than just talking about Hearts on here, but who'd want all the grief from hundreds of noisy donors!? Haha

 

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1 hour ago, Nunya Business said:

 

So the Foundation of Hearts and Cancer Research are the same thing now, aye? Ok.

Well look at the Barca model - their membership get to choose a millionaire from a beauty parade of millionaires to be President, but if he does a rubbish job like the last one, they can complain all they want but it is only once Lionel Messi gets proper angry that he will walk...

 

We don't have the luxury of lots of millionaires so we vote for a bunch of less vociferous directors who quietly do a job as volunteers, ON OUR BEHALF... As with any company, you can vote out the directors if you are unhappy with them, but the rules are set up so that it is not whimsical, and just the result of losing to garbage like Alloa...

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28 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:


I get that we’re fan owned and not fan run, but my point is that serious matters like Levein or the overspend on the Main Stand or the state of the pitch after the concert are followed by complete silence from the body that’s meant to represent us. They have to ask permission from the hierarchy at the club to make a statement on anything, which is such a laughable conflict of interest. 
 

I just don’t believe in the model anymore. I don’t feel like any of the board members represent the average supporter, the documentary showed them to be the type of people who’re just happy to be there. 

I havent seen the documentary so cant comment on that part. 
 

The other issues im sure they would have been raised but unity is also important you can raise your thoughts without it being public. If they have or have not there is not something either of us can say with any authority but we would both hope they had. 
 

I get where you are coming from though and you have the decency to explain so fair play 👍🏻

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1 hour ago, jambonian said:

After all this Covid is a memory and when Ann eventually relinquishes control, we can't just have FoH running the football club. We will still need a chairman, a consortium with a bit of cash behind them to run the club alongside FoH. I've said for years that while FoH are contributing brilliantly, not every single contributor will be able to do it forever. Lives change. People die, get married, have a family, move away, lose jobs, retire, become disillusioned with the whole club among many other things and may not be able to contribute financially for these reasons. What do we do then? Hopefully you'd think that a new generation of fans will pledge monthly but if Hearts don't start raising the profile of the club, start getting top 3/4 every season then the interest in the club will demise over the years and contributions will dry up. I first made this point three years ago and now i am witnessing our slow demise in the Championship already so things have to start picking up pretty quickly.

As for players, the expression speculate to accumulate comes to mind. For too long now we have ignored some of the best talent around us and watched Hibs and Aberdeen pick the best of the bunch available and i use them as an example of similar finance available. In fact i reckon we are much better off than either of them. Even Motherwell to a lesser extent have made some shrewd signings these last few years. These clubs have been fighting it out for third and fourth positions in the premier in recent seasons so why aren't we? The club needs a complete overhaul from the top to the academy, and soon or else we will find ourselves in this position for many a season to come, never mind this one.

All good points.

 

Things do need to improve quickly or the goodwill of the fans via FoH will wane and benefactors cash will eventually run dry.

 

And the specific area needing improvement is the football department including player recruitment and the transition of academy players into first-team regulars. It is in these areas that we've wasted a fortune in the past few years. I was hoping that this was clear to those running the club but the lack of depth in the current first team squad combined with the under-whelming start to this crucial season doesn't bode well.

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3 hours ago, Gambo said:

A bit like the club going round in circles with Levein and Neilson.

To be fair,  stint one with Neilson was a straight line upwards which somehow seems to be an inconvenient truth for plenty 

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3 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


We’re heading rapidly towards a decade of mediocrity. Even the Main Stand - it’s gone way over the estimates and it’s not like she’s paid for it.

 

The benefactors are her bullet proof vest. But the fact is, we’re only going backwards despite their money 

Absolutely spot on other clubs that can only dream of the money being pumped into the club year on year by the FOH and our generous benefactors must be laughing at the position we find ourselves in. It's outrageous that we are where we are given the investment. Scary to think what our predicament would be without these donations. Time for the club to grow a backbone and get back to where we belong pronto. 

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1 hour ago, Nunya Business said:


I get that we’re fan owned and not fan run, but my point is that serious matters like Levein or the overspend on the Main Stand or the state of the pitch after the concert are followed by complete silence from the body that’s meant to represent us. They have to ask permission from the hierarchy at the club to make a statement on anything, which is such a laughable conflict of interest. 
 

Do they need permission to speak?

 

If so, is this due to having board members and as such are bound by corporate regulations?

 

If that is so, you'd prefer to have no board representation so FoH can voice their concerns in public?

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
5 minutes ago, Boris said:

Do they need permission to speak?

 

If so, is this due to having board members and as such are bound by corporate regulations?

 

If that is so, you'd prefer to have no board representation so FoH can voice their concerns in public?


Their presence on the board seems to be a complete waste of time anyway so we might as well have none

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Cardiff Hearts

The debate about future governance on here has been encouraging. There is clearly a growing challenge to the rigour of FOH and the ability of Dr Budge to oversee the footballing operations - that is overdue and welcome. The wastage of our money has never been forensically laid out but it is apparent in any number of ways : recruitment , overspend on the stand to a connected party (with unclear credentials) and an out of kilter high basic, low performance related pay structure.

 

We all know that. The trick is not to repeat it. Hence, let's hear about the FOH handover and management arrangements asap (alongside an influx of new, non long standing "names") to run the business properly on behalf of the fans.

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Boris5115 said:

Absolutely spot on other clubs that can only dream of the money being pumped into the club year on year by the FOH and our generous benefactors must be laughing at the position we find ourselves in. It's outrageous that we are where we are given the investment. Scary to think what our predicament would be without these donations. Time for the club to grow a backbone and get back to where we belong pronto. 

 

 

I often wonder that perhaps the reason we are so soft is because we have all these donations. It is just luxury money severely being taken for granted by Ann Budge imo.

 

Excess players, ridiculously generous contracts, endless charity work and job creation throughout the non playing staff. Ann seems to focus on vanity projects and the  luxury aspects of being a football club.  If we had a basic pot with one flow of pish then she would have to by force to focus on the basics.

 

We are desperately crying out for the basics. I actually think Budge would not be quite so dangerous if the fans did not spoil the club so much.

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1 hour ago, Nunya Business said:


I get that we’re fan owned and not fan run, but my point is that serious matters like Levein or the overspend on the Main Stand or the state of the pitch after the concert are followed by complete silence from the body that’s meant to represent us. They have to ask permission from the hierarchy at the club to make a statement on anything, which is such a laughable conflict of interest. 
 

I just don’t believe in the model anymore. I don’t feel like any of the board members represent the average supporter, the documentary showed them to be the type of people who’re just happy to be there. 

My take on this is that you can't have FoH going off to the media : if there's anything to be said it needs to be said by the board of the football club. And for the record, I'm not a fan of the HMFC board's performance to date.

I don't see a problem in FoH directors talking publicly about matters which affect FoH - that is common sense - but you can't have (some) board directors of HMFC going public (unless they really want to make a point about something) , it's bad practice. 

 

I've said many times on here that i have major issues with the ability of the HMFC board to be properly functioning - IMO they haven't done their jobs (ie the stand over spend - which by any measure is a disaster, financially). But they got away with it because the board isn't really answerable/accountable. 

 

On the other hand, the FoH directors who are on the HMFC board (as non exec directors) have a legally responsibility to look at the performance of the exec directors (the HMFC Board) to make sure they act in their stakeholders interests (the FoH membrs). IMO, they have not done that, they went along with the ridiculous fiancial black hole of the new stand and allowed the costs to be passed back to FoH members - this should have been on the heads of the main board &  AB. 

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8 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

My take on this is that you can't have FoH going off to the media : if there's anything to be said it needs to be said by the board of the football club. And for the record, I'm not a fan of the HMFC board's performance to date.

I don't see a problem in FoH directors talking publicly about matters which affect FoH - that is common sense - but you can't have (some) board directors of HMFC going public (unless they really want to make a point about something) , it's bad practice. 

 

I've said many times on here that i have major issues with the ability of the HMFC board to be properly functioning - IMO they haven't done their jobs (ie the stand over spend - which by any measure is a disaster, financially). But they got away with it because the board isn't really answerable/accountable. 

 

On the other hand, the FoH directors who are on the HMFC board (as non exec directors) have a legally responsibility to look at the performance of the exec directors (the HMFC Board) to make sure they act in their stakeholders interests (the FoH membrs). IMO, they have not done that, they went along with the ridiculous fiancial black hole of the new stand and allowed the costs to be passed back to FoH members - this should have been on the heads of the main board &  AB. 

Some Good points in amongst that post

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30 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Their presence on the board seems to be a complete waste of time anyway so we might as well have none

So when FoH do take control they go in cold. It's a plan, I suppose...

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Cardiff Hearts
9 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

My take on this is that you can't have FoH going off to the media : if there's anything to be said it needs to be said by the board of the football club. And for the record, I'm not a fan of the HMFC board's performance to date.

I don't see a problem in FoH directors talking publicly about matters which affect FoH - that is common sense - but you can't have (some) board directors of HMFC going public (unless they really want to make a point about something) , it's bad practice. 

 

I've said many times on here that i have major issues with the ability of the HMFC board to be properly functioning - IMO they haven't done their jobs (ie the stand over spend - which by any measure is a disaster, financially). But they got away with it because the board isn't really answerable/accountable. 

 

On the other hand, the FoH directors who are on the HMFC board (as non exec directors) have a legally responsibility to look at the performance of the exec directors (the HMFC Board) to make sure they act in their stakeholders interests (the FoH membrs). IMO, they have not done that, they went along with the ridiculous fiancial black hole of the new stand and allowed the costs to be passed back to FoH members - this should have been on the heads of the main board &  AB. 

Wise words Nano on the governance debacle. It's flawed and dominated by SWMBO. And she knows it. 

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32 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Their presence on the board seems to be a complete waste of time anyway so we might as well have none

Or get some vociferous ones in immediately. 

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2 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

 

That's the biggest joke of them all then. Nothing more than a fundraising committee.

 

"Please give us your money, but don't ask questions."

 

 

Let's not let this point get lost amongst the rest. She could do with explaining why the tender process for the Main Stand ended with a family member being awarded the contract. Especially when that contractor had no experience of a job of that size.

As I was told this and allegedly lead to believe that the following actually happened,  so I stand to be corrected if wrong. 
 

When the plans for the stand were drawn up, the architect had told AB to expect this to come out in the region of £11M. This is where the initial figure was first mooted but was never set in stone. When the plans finally went out to tender, the quotes were coming in at over twice the projected cost. One contractor (Barr Construction I believe) had quoted £24M to deliver our stand complete. This was way in excess of our expectations. The club were sold a pipe dream by the architect that was completely unrealistic. 

 

Matters were taken into hand and our stand was basically a self build with the club acting as an appointed main contractor. Many sub contractors were brought on board to help out and It was hoped that the stand could initially be delivered for £18M thus saving the club 25% of projected costs. 
 

I’m not sure how or who eventually appointed JB Contracts but he was brought in as the contractor responsible for the fit out once the stand was basically built to wind and watertight conditions with a view to saving the club money.
 

To suggest AB actually gave him the contract without consultation and taking professional advice and guidance,  is slanderous and without foundation. This is just another stick in which some people want to beat Anne Budge with and have her treated as the clubs ‘whipping boy!’ 
 

We have a beautiful new stand which now completes our stadium and in due course will net us a steady return when  things return to normal one day. 
 

The stand overspend and claims of nepotism have been done to death. At least the FOH have something to show for our hard earned monthly donations 

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3 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


We’re heading rapidly towards a decade of mediocrity. Even the Main Stand - it’s gone way over the estimates and it’s not like she’s paid for it.

 

The benefactors are her bullet proof vest. But the fact is, we’re only going backwards despite their money 

Absolutely correct. The benefactors and donators including FoH members are simply underwriting Ann's costly mismanagement. If she had not made such a financial mess of certain aspects of her tenure (main stand, football department etc) then we would be much closer to self sustainability and not need benefactors and external donators. I, like most of us, am truly grateful for her stepping up to the plate to provide the advance funding required to purchase the club but to be sitting in the Championship six years later having spent the money that has been spent is disgraceful mismanagement. As others have alluded to on here, the BBC documentary gave a snapshot of why we have become such a vacuous club. Ann showed no motivation, inspiration or flair and looked very tired all the time. She is currently the guardian of our club but she is unfortunately not the leader we require. 

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11 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

As I was told this and allegedly lead to believe that the following actually happened,  so I stand to be corrected if wrong. 
 

When the plans for the stand were drawn up, the architect had told AB to expect this to come out in the region of £11M. This is where the initial figure was first mooted but was never set in stone. When the plans finally went out to tender, the quotes were coming in at over twice the projected cost. One contractor (Barr Construction I believe) had quoted £24M to deliver our stand complete. This was way in excess of our expectations. The club were sold a pipe dream by the architect that was completely unrealistic. 

 

Matters were taken into hand and our stand was basically a self build with the club acting as an appointed main contractor. Many sub contractors were brought on board to help out and It was hoped that the stand could initially be delivered for £18M thus saving the club 25% of projected costs. 
 

I’m not sure how or who eventually appointed JB Contracts but he was brought in as the contractor responsible for the fit out once the stand was basically built to wind and watertight conditions with a view to saving the club money.
 

To suggest AB actually gave him the contract without consultation and taking professional advice and guidance,  is slanderous and without foundation. This is just another stick in which some people want to beat Anne Budge with and have her treated as the clubs ‘whipping boy!’ 
 

We have a beautiful new stand which now completes our stadium and in due course will net us a steady return when  things return to normal one day. 
 

The stand overspend and claims of nepotism have been done to death. At least the FOH have something to show for our hard earned monthly donations 

On what basis did the club commence work on the new stand ?

I'm not criticising your post, I just don't quite get the correct sequence of events.

You'd expect the project to be costed and for there to be some contingency - that gets signed off by the board.

At what point did the board commit the club to the spend - they put out for tenders , the tenders came back at double the price ? And at THAT point they signed off on the project ? - if that's the case, there never was  a de facto overspend because the project was based on a £24M cost ? 

 

What did the FoH commit their members to - the £11M  "finger in the air" figure or the £24M ? 

 

Any thoughts ?

 

 

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Cardiff Hearts
7 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

As I was told this and allegedly lead to believe that the following actually happened,  so I stand to be corrected if wrong. 
 

When the plans for the stand were drawn up, the architect had told AB to expect this to come out in the region of £11M. This is where the initial figure was first mooted but was never set in stone. When the plans finally went out to tender, the quotes were coming in at over twice the projected cost. One contractor (Barr Construction I believe) had quoted £24M to deliver our stand complete. This was way in excess of our expectations. The club were sold a pipe dream by the architect that was completely unrealistic. 

 

Matters were taken into hand and our stand was basically a self build with the club acting as an appointed main contractor. Many sub contractors were brought on board to help out and It was hoped that the stand could initially be delivered for £18M thus saving the club 25% of projected costs. 
 

I’m not sure how or who eventually appointed JB Contracts but he was brought in as the contractor responsible for the fit out once the stand was basically built to wind and watertight conditions with a view to saving the club money.
 

To suggest AB actually gave him the contract without consultation and taking professional advice and guidance,  is slanderous and without foundation. This is just another stick in which some people want to beat Anne Budge with and have her treated as the clubs ‘whipping boy!’ 
 

We have a beautiful new stand which now completes our stadium and in due course will net us a steady return when  things return to normal one day. 
 

The stand overspend and claims of nepotism have been done to death. At least the FOH have something to show for our hard earned monthly donations 

Couple of points :

 

1. If it was alleged / written on here that AB had done something improper, it would be libellous rather than

    slanderous. 

2. If the Board appointed the contract for JBC and as it should have done for a £6m+ capex project,  it should be

     minuted and any conflict of interest declared at that time. Go check. 

 

I agree that we have an impressive new stand - the issue is not whether it was delivered rather how it was delivered, at what cost (to whom) and whether connected parties were disclosed and represented fair value for shareholders. 

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Nunya Business
16 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

I’m not sure how or who eventually appointed JB Contracts but he was brought in as the contractor responsible for the fit out once the stand was basically built to wind and watertight conditions with a view to saving the club money.

 

To suggest AB actually gave him the contract without consultation and taking professional advice and guidance,  is slanderous and without foundation. 


Your first point contradicts your second point. 

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
30 minutes ago, Boris said:

So when FoH do take control they go in cold. It's a plan, I suppose...


What are the actually contributing at the moment?

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
22 minutes ago, eyesandears said:

Absolutely correct. The benefactors and donators including FoH members are simply underwriting Ann's costly mismanagement. If she had not made such a financial mess of certain aspects of her tenure (main stand, football department etc) then we would be much closer to self sustainability and not need benefactors and external donators. I, like most of us, am truly grateful for her stepping up to the plate to provide the advance funding required to purchase the club but to be sitting in the Championship six years later having spent the money that has been spent is disgraceful mismanagement. As others have alluded to on here, the BBC documentary gave a snapshot of why we have become such a vacuous club. Ann showed no motivation, inspiration or flair and looked very tired all the time. She is currently the guardian of our club but she is unfortunately not the leader we require. 


You get the impression that she (and I got this impression from Levein constantly too) is at a loss to understand why people are frustrated. I genuinely think she looks at a shocking league table and says ‘well, someone’s got to be at the bottom.’

 

This has been a productive time for shit players, shit coaches and Budge’s brother but not for us fans.

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29 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

On what basis did the club commence work on the new stand ?

I'm not criticising your post, I just don't quite get the correct sequence of events.

You'd expect the project to be costed and for there to be some contingency - that gets signed off by the board.

At what point did the board commit the club to the spend - they put out for tenders , the tenders came back at double the price ? And at THAT point they signed off on the project ? - if that's the case, there never was  a de facto overspend because the project was based on a £24M cost ? 

 

What did the FoH commit their members to - the £11M  "finger in the air" figure or the £24M ? 

 

Any thoughts ?

 

 

The club only got planning permission approved as they agreed to build the nursery within the new stand. It was a planning condition attached. If they went back for a redesign and later submission at a reduced scope, then planning would’ve been denied as the nursery was a condition that had to go ahead in that year. If we delayed or dithered on this then it was back to the drawing board and this would’ve put us back at least 2 years. 
 

Your questions of approval would need answered by the board and at the AGM to get a full accurate timeline of events as they unfolded. 
 

The above is a shortened version of events but it was a case of now or never abs there was no time to get other plans drawn, approved and submitted in such a short space of time. 
 

The £11M figure was neither here nor there as it was based on the architects guideline at planning stage. Before any build gets a warrant approved then a qualifying sum needs submitted to gauge a cost of warrant fee. Hence the £11M was a guesstimate from the offing and was totally unrealistic to begin with. There was no overspend on the prices received but just a massive underestimation on the actual cost and therefore we had a shortfall to make up of approx £10M between projected and actual costs. 

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2 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

The club only got planning permission approved as they agreed to build the nursery within the new stand. It was a planning condition attached. If they went back for a redesign and later submission at a reduced scope, then planning would’ve been denied as the nursery was a condition that had to go ahead in that year. If we delayed or dithered on this then it was back to the drawing board and this would’ve put us back at least 2 years. 
 

Your questions of approval would need answered by the board and at the AGM to get a full accurate timeline of events as they unfolded. 
 

The above is a shortened version of events but it was a case of now or never abs there was no time to get other plans drawn, approved and submitted in such a short space of time. 
 

The £11M figure was neither here nor there as it was based on the architects guideline at planning stage. Before any build gets a warrant approved then a qualifying sum needs submitted to gauge a cost of warrant fee. Hence the £11M was a guesstimate from the offing and was totally unrealistic to begin with. There was no overspend on the prices received but just a massive underestimation on the actual cost and therefore we had a shortfall to make up of approx £10M between projected and actual costs. 

I think your final para tells me what I need to know.

Cheers. 

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34 minutes ago, Cardiff Hearts said:

Couple of points :

 

1. If it was alleged / written on here that AB had done something improper, it would be libellous rather than

    slanderous. 

2. If the Board appointed the contract for JBC and as it should have done for a £6m+ capex project,  it should be

     minuted and any conflict of interest declared at that time. Go check. 

 

I agree that we have an impressive new stand - the issue is not whether it was delivered rather how it was delivered, at what cost (to whom) and whether connected parties were disclosed and represented fair value for shareholders. 

I don’t need to check any minutes about our stand and who entered into any agreement. I’m sure if the club were lobbied then they have minuted meetings and would need full transparency as to how contractors were decide and by what process.
 

I have no problem with the stand or the contractor or the cost for that matter. 
 

To suggest there was any impropriety and to call someone out for it, is slanderous. To insist something improper had happened that precluded a fair and unjust act occurred is libellous. 

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39 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:


Your first point contradicts your second point. 

It doesn’t really. I’ve no idea of the system or who was on the initial list of contractors or the final list for that matter. I do know for fact that the new stand was put out for 3 companies in which to return tenders and they varied in price from, I believe £18-£24M with no contingencies which were suggested at circa 15%. 
 

Who or how any contractor was appointed and on what financial terms, is a question for the board. I can only assume that the in-house route that we took was designed to save the club money in by which we kept any profit margin that would naturally occur to any appointed main contractor.
 

Why do you think it was left to the club to order our own seats for the stand and not an appointed main contractor as such? 

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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Their presence on the board seems to be a complete waste of time anyway so we might as well have none

Having a club run by a board is an ineffective proposition unless all the board members are equal on a one man one vote basis. Where you have a board where the major shareholder has effective veto on everything you haven’t  really got a board running the club, you’ve got one person who takes or leaves their opinion as she sees fit.

 

Id be willing to bet that at least some members of our board urged her to sack Levein long before she did it.

 

That’s going to be the way of things until we have a board with effective and joint control and responsibility.

 

She’s earned the right to be taking all the decisions. I just don’t see it as particularly healthy, especially as, by her own admission, she was starting from ground zero as regards running a football club.

 

As far as the FOH is concerned, from what little we seen in the documentary, they came across for now as an ineffective talking shop most definitely on the outside looking in

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Bored! The woman ploughed and continues to plough huge amounts into the club. She is as mad a Jambo, or moreso, as the rest of us and admits mistakes were made.

 

Yet keyboard warriors only want to give her a hard time. Geez peace✌ All in it together????

 

If you want to criticise aim it firmly, totally and squarely at the high percentage of imposters over the last couple of seasons that have pulled a pair of boots on that didn't deserve our badge on their chest.

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17 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

I don’t need to check any minutes about our stand and who entered into any agreement. I’m sure if the club were lobbied then they have minuted meetings and would need full transparency as to how contractors were decide and by what process.
 

I have no problem with the stand or the contractor or the cost for that matter. 
 

To suggest there was any impropriety and to call someone out for it, is slanderous. To insist something improper had happened that precluded a fair and unjust act occurred is libellous. 

Just a coincidence that the contracts went to a diddy wee joinery outfit in Davidson Mains with no track record of delivering such projects owned by the brother of the person dishing out the contract... At least it was on time and on budget... Oh wait. 

 

Is it a crime to point out these bizarre coincidences? I've seen plenty of folk (quite rightly) question government contracts going to pals of Dominic Cummings and Michelle Mone in the shed. 

 

At best it was a very poor decision to award her brother a contract that amounted to over £6m. At worst...

 

(Use of ellipsis isn't slander, so don't try and sue me)

 

 

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Nunya Business
6 minutes ago, Saughton Jambo said:

It doesn’t really. I’ve no idea of the system or who was on the initial list of contractors or the final list for that matter. I do know for fact that the new stand was put out for 3 companies in which to return tenders and they varied in price from, I believe £18-£24M with no contingencies which were suggested at circa 15%. 
 

Who or how any contractor was appointed and on what financial terms, is a question for the board. I can only assume that the in-house route that we took was designed to save the club money in by which we kept any profit margin that would naturally occur to any appointed main contractor.
 

Why do you think it was left to the club to order our own seats for the stand and not an appointed main contractor as such? 

 

But my point is how did a thorough tender process end with a family member being appointed? Unless you were involved in the procurement, you can't answer that question. I'm not saying she did anything shady or untoward, just that it doesn't look great when you have a project that's went over budget and a family member is involved in that project. 

 

I imagine it was done in-house to save the club money.

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Just now, Nunya Business said:

 

But my point is how did a thorough tender process end with a family member being appointed? Unless you were involved in the procurement, you can't answer that question. I'm not saying she did anything shady or untoward, just that it doesn't look great when you have a project that's went over budget and a family member is involved in that project. 

 

I imagine it was done in-house to save the club money.

There was a note to last years accounts as to the use of her brother’s company. The Companies Act has specific processes to be followed in such a circumstance. A question was asked at the AGM on it also. 

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Nunya Business
10 minutes ago, credit card said:

She is as mad a Jambo, or moreso, as the rest of us and admits mistakes were made.

 

I'm not having that. This is a picture of her after the 3-1 scudding of Hibs at Easter Road.

 

The proper Hearts supporters at ER that night certainly did not look like that.

BPLkLcEl.jpg

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