Width and pace

[vegas-voss]

That was the words from Robbie pre season and what the signings were meant to be.So why the **** do we always play so narrow and is there any pace in this side.Wee side passes, wee layoffs and do we every switch the play.

[Paul Shark]

Yes please. But without Ginnelly we don't have any. Roberts and Frear can be added yo the long list of Kevin Twaddles we've had in recent times.

[1971fozzy]

Ginelly obviously the key. Sad but true

[stotty]

7 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

That was the words from Robbie pre season and what the signings were meant to be.So why the **** do we always play so narrow and is there any pace in this side.Wee side passes, wee layoffs and do we every switch the play.

I think it's because he's realised we only have one good winger, and he's injured. The others don't look good enough. 

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, stotty said:

I think it's because he's realised we only have one good winger, and he's injured. The others don't look good enough. 

Even when Ginelly has been playing though it's still very narrow did he not actually play him one game more central as well.Big player Ginelly no doubt and at least he runs with the ball.

Edited November 20, 2020 by vegas-voss

[18Jambo_dave74]

The problem is our wide options are Frear, Roberts, Moore and Henderson. 
 

Without Ginnelly we have been average at best in the league. 
 

There is absolutely no pace in the rest of the team.

[Greedy Jambo]

Width, pace, nae midfield, strikers are slow and not very good, the list goes on. 

[David Black]

It all comes down to the coaching and I'm afraid I don't reckon RN is that great. I like the guy, he has signed players in the positions we were weak , but when it comes to setting out a team and tactics, he is just another Scottish manager. 

[brawlad74]

Was fuming at all the pass backs and side way ball's. Just allowed Pars to get men back. We should be zipping up both wings and feeding strikers in box

[Seymour M Hersh]

What are they? 

[Gordon Ramsay]

Still don't have any. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

2 minutes ago, David Black said:

It all comes down to the coaching and I'm afraid I don't reckon RN is that great. I like the guy, he has signed players in the positions we were weak , but when it comes to setting out a team and tactics, he is just another Scottish manager. 

Boyce Naismith Walker Lee Berra Souttar Halkett Smith, none of whom he signed but probably make up 80% of our first team wage bill at the club at present. As it’s all about the coaching, who’s the coach we can get in to just coach them all to suddenly get fit, fast and come good.

 

The reality is our squad needs serious spinal surgery and imo pretty much all the big earners ultimately need emptied, total rip out and start again type job. Neilsons job this season is to get this patched together paper over the cracks rag tag squad to somehow scrape promotion, that much is imminently clear to me after the opening matches. All the talk of us having a “premiership squad” is the biggest load of shite ever spouted 

 

[HMFC 86]

13 minutes ago, brawlad74 said:

Was fuming at all the pass backs and side way ball's. Just allowed Pars to get men back. We should be zipping up both wings and feeding strikers in box

It’s so frustrating to see us pass side to side and then back to Gordon even from their half. To me it’s not so much about pace, lethargy certainly is an issue with us that needs to improve, but there also needs to be a desire for forward impetus.

[Paolo]

9 hours ago, vegas-voss said:

That was the words from Robbie pre season and what the signings were meant to be.So why the **** do we always play so narrow and is there any pace in this side.Wee side passes, wee layoffs and do we every switch the play.

We were the same for a good part of the Hibs game.   When we weren’t, we were the better side.  

[vegas-voss]

5 minutes ago, Paolo said:

We were the same for a good part of the Hibs game.   When we weren’t, we were the better side.  

Aye totally it's been the same story almost every game.

[Debut 4]

Key players make it work but so does the players actually focussing properly and showing the right application. 
 

It’s quickly being highlighted that Ginnelly is the only player looking effective out wide but our full backs need to do much more within the unit too to be that extra man.

 

Ginnelly can go in behind or come short because he’s got pace to burn and is direct.   If you have got other wide players with less pace and maybe not so direct in style,  they need better support. I think Roberts and Frear aren’t good enough anyway (I admittedly hum and hawed when we signed Roberts) but the point being is, we are isolating our wide men too much just now. 

[Billy Hoyle]

9 hours ago, HMFC 86 said:

It’s so frustrating to see us pass side to side and then back to Gordon even from their half. To me it’s not so much about pace, lethargy certainly is an issue with us that needs to improve, but there also needs to be a desire for forward impetus.

That’s it in a nutshell. The two central defenders are just happy to shunt it out to the full backs and it starts from there!! The holding midfielders look to go sideways or back most of the time too forcing Naismith and Boyce way to deep to try to get involved. Too many players in the team with no real desire to take the game to the other team and make things happen.They would rather play the 10 yard square pass. 
So frustrating. 
When Dunfermline got the ball they got it forward and quickly. 
We controlled possession and done **** all with it. 

[David McCaig]

Last night we were guilty of trying to pick the best available players rather than the best available team.

 

In my view our best formation is 4231 and we shouldn't really deviate from this.

 

We have 5 genuine wide players at the club in Ginnelly, Roberts, Frear, Henderson and Moore.... Each of those players should be good enough to start at Championship level.

 

Every man and their dog knows that asking Wighton, Walker, Lee or Naismith to go wide immediately diminishes us a side and leads to slow, narrow pedestrian football.

[Billy Hoyle]

Just now, David McCaig said:

Last night we were guilty of trying to pick the best available players rather than the best available team.

 

In my view our best formation is 4231 and we shouldn't really deviate from this.

 

We have 5 genuine wide players at the club in Ginnelly, Roberts, Frear, Henderson and Moore.... Each of those players should be good enough to start at Championship level.

 

Every man and their dog knows that asking Wighton, Walker, Lee or Naismith to go wide immediately diminishes us a side and leads to slow, narrow pedestrian football.

I agree with you to a certain extent but after 10 mins last night you could see we needed to go straight up 4-4-2 and get Wighton up with Boyce. He cannot get into the game stuck out wide. I also don’t think Boyce likes playing up top on his own. 
problem we have is Frear and Roberts look absolutely pish even at this level!! 

[David McCaig]

31 minutes ago, Billy Hoyle said:

I agree with you to a certain extent but after 10 mins last night you could see we needed to go straight up 4-4-2 and get Wighton up with Boyce. He cannot get into the game stuck out wide. I also don’t think Boyce likes playing up top on his own. 
problem we have is Frear and Roberts look absolutely pish even at this level!! 

With the players on the park 442 was probably the best way for them to go.

 

For 4231 to work, you need two proper wide players on the park to stretch the play and stop sides easily doubling up when only one player is wide.

[Bazzas right boot]

20 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

With the players on the park 442 was probably the best way for them to go.

 

For 4231 to work, you need two proper wide players on the park to stretch the play and stop sides easily doubling up when only one player is wide.

 

Yip. 

With the players available I'd have white wide left. 

 

He's trying to play both Boyce and Naismith, in a 1 up top formation that doesn't work, and Wighton isn't aa winger. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Smith's right boot

[David McCaig]

17 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Yip. 

With the players available I'd have white wide left. 

 

He's trying to play both Boyce and Naismith, in a 1 up top formation that doesn't work, and Wighton isn't aa winger. 

 

 

White is certainly a better option out wide than Walker, Naismith or Wighton.

 

Walker in particular is effective in only one position and that is #10 in a 4231. 

 

Wighton is in competition with Boyce for #9

 

Naismith can play #9 or #10 but seems to have lost that yard of pace which used to make him surprisingly effective when playing wide.

Edited November 21, 2020 by David McCaig

[jambo19]

I noticed a couple factors last night though, Dunfermline pressed us high up the park and forced the centre backs to play deeper, the full backs weren't beyond half way and the wingers - despite being wide - were facing their own goal.

 

Dunfermline pushed us to go backwards.

 

When that happens we need the centre mids to drop in and link in triangles to move it at 1 or 2 touch to break the lines and the press. Halliday and Lee didn't do that and want to much time on the ball. 

 

The wide men in Frear and Wighton rarely beat their men, when they did, they didn't have the ability to deliver a ball in. They wouldn't cut across their men either and draw the foul or commit the man so it was easy to defend.

 

The first goal against Inverness was a prime example of getting the full backs high up the park so the attackers can occupy the box. We didn't get that last night, partly down to the opposition, partly down to the lack of drive from our players 

[Gambo]

Width and pace are great if you have a solid middle of the park.

 

We have none of the above.

[NANOJAMBO]

12 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Boyce Naismith Walker Lee Berra Souttar Halkett Smith, none of whom he signed but probably make up 80% of our first team wage bill at the club at present. As it’s all about the coaching, who’s the coach we can get in to just coach them all to suddenly get fit, fast and come good.

 

The reality is our squad needs serious spinal surgery and imo pretty much all the big earners ultimately need emptied, total rip out and start again type job. Neilsons job this season is to get this patched together paper over the cracks rag tag squad to somehow scrape promotion, that much is imminently clear to me after the opening matches. All the talk of us having a “premiership squad” is the biggest load of shite ever spouted 

 

This should be the assumption for the rest of the season. Dire football but because it's "winning football" (that's how piss poor it is now :  we 're supposed to suck up the same shit every week as we scrape a 1-0 against some truly awful part time teams). This squad is piss poor, even by Championship standards and it isn't going to be improved.  The idea that much of this bunch are still at Tynecastle next season fills me with dread. 

[Billy Hoyle]

1 hour ago, NANOJAMBO said:

This should be the assumption for the rest of the season. Dire football but because it's "winning football" (that's how piss poor it is now :  we 're supposed to suck up the same shit every week as we scrape a 1-0 against some truly awful part time teams). This squad is piss poor, even by Championship standards and it isn't going to be improved.  The idea that much of this bunch are still at Tynecastle next season fills me with dread. 

If we were in the Premier league with this squad it would definitely be near the bottom of the table. Nowhere near the standard required to be top half. 

[Jamboscanbevicius]

We desperately need Haring back to solidify middle of the park, and Gino back to give us some pace and width. 

[vegas-voss]

2 minutes ago, Jamboscanbevicius said:

We desperately need Haring back to solidify middle of the park, and Gino back to give us some pace and width. 

Biggest strongest squad in the league the media likes to tell us but we rely so much on two players

[R1874]

We beat Rangers with Moore and Henderson out wide. They - like Frear and Roberts - are not Hearts level but give them a chance!

 

Moore has been treated terribly after the end to last season. Wasn’t his biggest fan then played brilliantly against Rangers and Hibs. Give the boy a chance now Gino is out

[kingantti1874]

Moore is better than frear and Roberts the end ..

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Moore is better than frear and Roberts the end ..

 

Absolutely. Two senior players who have contributed the sum total of **** all. Moore needs to be given a chance over both of them, even if it is only to give them a kick up the arse. 

 

Hugely annoyed with both. Roberts doesn't even seem like a winger or wide player at all. Frear is piss weak and lacks ability. Uche would have offered more!

[GavK1012]

****ing pathetic that a few games in, clear and obvious flaws in our make-up are there for all to see....Gino is direct, will give him that...Frear and Roberts so far have looked inept, disinterested, mentally weak and simply lacking any quality...

 

I don't think actually Moore has the quality (file under Dave Smith/Scott Robinson etc al) but Stendel had him working his ass off which in turn helped the team at least...busting a gut, hassling the opponent and tracking back...

 

Roberts in stopage time getting pushed off the ball in the penalty box 😡😠😤

 

We want bloody quality wingers for the Scottish game, its not asking the earth Robbie....arrgghhh!!!

[Beni]

15 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Boyce Naismith Walker Lee Berra Souttar Halkett Smith, none of whom he signed but probably make up 80% of our first team wage bill at the club at present. As it’s all about the coaching, who’s the coach we can get in to just coach them all to suddenly get fit, fast and come good.

 

The reality is our squad needs serious spinal surgery and imo pretty much all the big earners ultimately need emptied, total rip out and start again type job. Neilsons job this season is to get this patched together paper over the cracks rag tag squad to somehow scrape promotion, that much is imminently clear to me after the opening matches. All the talk of us having a “premiership squad” is the biggest load of shite ever spouted 

 

 

5 of the players you name are contracted until at least 2022, add in another big wage for Gordon, and there isn't going to be money for a major squad overhall in the summer.

Succeed or fail, Neilson will have to do it with a lot of the players he inherited.

 

[hearts00]

5 hours ago, jambo19 said:

I noticed a couple factors last night though, Dunfermline pressed us high up the park and forced the centre backs to play deeper, the full backs weren't beyond half way and the wingers - despite being wide - were facing their own goal.

 

Dunfermline pushed us to go backwards.

 

When that happens we need the centre mids to drop in and link in triangles to move it at 1 or 2 touch to break the lines and the press. Halliday and Lee didn't do that and want to much time on the ball. 

 

The wide men in Frear and Wighton rarely beat their men, when they did, they didn't have the ability to deliver a ball in. They wouldn't cut across their men either and draw the foul or commit the man so it was easy to defend.

 

The first goal against Inverness was a prime example of getting the full backs high up the park so the attackers can occupy the box. We didn't get that last night, partly down to the opposition, partly down to the lack of drive from our players 

Yes one thing I definitely noticed as you say was the full backs did not get forward last night. 

[Fraggle]

One of the key differences with Dunfermline last night was the majority of passes they played were forward into space with the receiving player facing our goals. Our forward passes were mostly all to players with their backs to the opposition goal trying to shield the ball. Aside from the poor passing, the first touch of the receiving players (particularly Boyce) was terrible. Constantly getting caught under their feet or bouncing up and away from them. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Fraggle

[Fraggle]

Just now, Fraggle said:

 

Double post feck up. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Fraggle

[Scottie Wanshot.]

56 minutes ago, Jamboscanbevicius said:

We desperately need Haring back to solidify middle of the park, and Gino back to give us some pace and width. 

The problem with Haring, is he's Not going in for 50/50 balls, think he's still a bit frightened to go for hard tackles.

[Салатные палочки]

Frear and Roberts

 

Collect ten tokens and win a contract with Heart of Midlothian. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

Width and pace being important? 

 

 

 

 

[David Black]

56 minutes ago, R1874 said:

We beat Rangers with Moore and Henderson out wide. They - like Frear and Roberts - are not Hearts level but give them a chance!

 

Moore has been treated terribly after the end to last season. Wasn’t his biggest fan then played brilliantly against Rangers and Hibs. Give the boy a chance now Gino is out

I agree re both, Moore was our best player under DS and Henderson shows enough to warrant a start. They both have an energy that is sadly lacking. As for Naismith, he'd be lucky to get on the bench if it were up to me. I have said it from day 1, not remotely worth the salary we are paying him. 

[Салатные палочки]

Just now, David Black said:

I agree re both, Moore was our best player under DS and Henderson shows enough to warrant a start. They both have an energy that is sadly lacking. As for Naismith, he'd be lucky to get on the bench if it were up to me. I have said it from day 1, not remotely worth the salary we are paying him. 

 

Come on. Who's going to do the shouting if Naismith isn't on the park? 

[frankblack]

Its not just the width that is the problem it is taking far too many passes to get the ball forward, meaning that by the time we get the ball out wide the player is facing two defenders.

 

What is it they do at training that we can't make a direct pass in front of a wide player to run onto so they have momentum to take on their man and deliver a cross or go inside?

[south morocco]

At least Moore has a bit of energy about him. 

[Jambo61]

Boyce and Wighton are less threatening than a Paisley Shirley Temple!

 

If those 2 do ever actually get a chance you live more in hope than expectation!

[David Black]

30 minutes ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

Come on. Who's going to do the shouting if Naismith isn't on the park? 

True, never thought of that.

[Bazzas right boot]

37 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Its not just the width that is the problem it is taking far too many passes to get the ball forward, meaning that by the time we get the ball out wide the player is facing two defenders.

 

What is it they do at training that we can't make a direct pass in front of a wide player to run onto so they have momentum to take on their man and deliver a cross or go inside?

 

100% issue last night, 3 passes to do what 1 could have done.