Ambitions as a club

[TyphoonJambo]

5 hours ago, Agentjambo said:

I'd rather be the wolf than the sheep. 

Be famous longer than the sheep. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Forget future ambitions. No-one can plan anything right now. It's all about this season. If we continue this momentum, no matter the quality of the teams we're beating, we have a very real chance of silverware this season, with three attempts at it and very weakened Premiership teams in the draws.

 

The key to success this season will be which teams can build momentum, stay clear of injuries and covid outbreaks, and keep a team spirit going in adversity. Ourselves, Rangers and Raith are probably the three teams in the SPFL who have done that so far. I'd expect Raith to drop away but we have the manager and players - and the motivation of being desperate to get some revenge - to keep it going.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Jamhammer]

I remember when I started following Hearts in the early 80's my priorities were

1. Avoid relegation

2. Leather Hibs

3. Top half of table

4. 3rd best

5. Split the OF

6. Get to Cup Finals

7. Win trophoes

 

after 86 this was amended to include win the league. Times have changed but I live in hope, always. It can be done.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

FFS multiple posts.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I always feel the stepping stone is being consistently dangerous, home and away - how often could we say that about us? Not often enough.

Pisses me off that our fanbase/budget advantage over a lot of teams doesn't manifest itself in the same way the old filth's budget often does over us. 

 

Partly because the gap between the OF and the rest is much, much bigger than the gap between us and the rest.

[Niemi’s gloves]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

We're in the Championship because we meekly accepted 5th and 6th place finishes. No good enough. 

Hamilton are in the premiership because they accept 9, 10, 11th place place every year with no serious attempt to progress in cup competitions.

 

We are in the championship for a whole list of reasons which include “no good enough”, get rid of half decent players, bring in huge numbers of new ones who are better only on paper but cost more (and may lack commitment), sack manager, bring in lots more meh players at further cost, sack manager, and repeat. Unrealistic expectations and demands from fans can be more of a killer than lack of ambition.

[Cruyff]

7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to argue here. I agree with everything you say. The list of things I said we should aim for and have realistic hopes of achievements was clear. The reason I included top 6 is for me bottom 6 is almost certainly a sacking offence for the manager unless there are real mitigating circumstances, while finishing 5th isn't. If it was, we would have sacked Doddie, Levein and JJ before they went on to achieve better things.

That's the past and we've under achieved. 

4th place should be the yardstick of minimum expectations and anything below that should result in an instant dismissal. 

[Niemi’s gloves]

Just now, Cruyff said:

That's the past and we've under achieved. 

4th place should be the yardstick of minimum expectations and anything below that should result in an instant dismissal. 

Absolutely not! That’s the idiotic mentality that we need to get away from

[Cruyff]

2 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

Hamilton are in the premiership because they accept 9, 10, 11th place place every year with no serious attempt to progress in cup competitions.

 

We are in the championship for a whole list of reasons which include “no good enough”, get rid of half decent players, bring in huge numbers of new ones who are better only on paper but cost more (and may lack commitment), sack manager, bring in lots more meh players at further cost, sack manager, and repeat. Unrealistic expectations and demands from fans can be more of a killer than lack of ambition.

I don't see your point. We're no Hamilton. We're the 3rd biggest side in Scotland with fantastic facilities and a support that's pumping in 180k a month. 

 

The reason we're in the Championship is purely down to the incompetence of the board of directors. 

 

3 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

Absolutely not! That’s the idiotic mentality that we need to get away from

 

What do you mean "get away from" - that mentality has been non existent. If we're rubbing our hands at 5th and 6th place, we may as well shut the doors! 

 

[Gizmo]

21 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Partly because the gap between the OF and the rest is much, much bigger than the gap between us and the rest.

I know, sadly.

Dunno what the answer is -  consistency without just outspending the rest of the league (some ****ing achievement, not) seems difficult. Levein, in his first period in charge, managed it against a decreasing budget so it must be possible.  
 

[Niemi’s gloves]

10 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I don't see your point. We're no Hamilton. We're the 3rd biggest side in Scotland with fantastic facilities and a support that's pumping in 180k a month. 

 

The reason we're in the Championship is purely down to the incompetence of the board of directors. 

 

 

What do you mean "get away from" - that mentality has been non existent. If we're rubbing our hands at 5th and 6th place, we may as well shut the doors! 

 

Yes, I am serious. It’s not really that difficult a point. If finishing below 4th is a sackable offence for a Hearts manager, then (a) we will never bridge the gap to put in an occasional challenge to Rangers and Celtic and (b) you can forget about cup runs.

 

Look, there are two teams that are clearly bigger than us, we are one of three at a broadly similar level of resources, and on top of that, there are teams like Motherwell and Kilmarnock who are prepared to accept finishing well down the league some years while bringing through players and thus are capable of competing occasionally for 3rd or 4th place. So finishing fourth or better every year isn’t easy. If it is a case of “3rd/4th place or be sacked”, a manager has no incentive to build a team that might challenge the OF or even to try to reach cup finals.

 

 

 

[Cruyff]

17 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

Yes, I am serious. It’s not really that difficult a point. If finishing below 4th is a sackable offence for a Hearts manager, then (a) we will never bridge the gap to put in an occasional challenge to Rangers and Celtic and (b) you can forget about cup runs.

 

Look, there are two teams that are clearly bigger than us, we are one of three at a broadly similar level of resources, and on top of that, there are teams like Motherwell and Kilmarnock who are prepared to accept finishing well down the league some years while bringing through players and thus are capable of competing occasionally for 3rd or 4th place. So finishing fourth or better every year isn’t easy. If it is a case of “3rd/4th place or be sacked”, a manager has no incentive to build a team that might challenge the OF or even to try to reach cup finals.

 

 

 

Aberdeen have managed to do this but it is unrealistic for Hearts to do so. 🤔🙄 

[Hesh]

7 hours ago, Tennant's 6's said:

Can't see that happening unfortunately. 

Even with a good Academy & scouting dept,  we'd lose any decent players in no time.

We should be aiming to eventually knock the sheep off of the 3rd best perch though. Regular euro football & Cup Finals 

whats the thoughts on the academy and scouting?

[boag1874]

The long term ambition should always be to win the premiership. Theres a difference between realistic 5 year targets and long term ambition. It's more than unlikely to happen any time soon without a serious cash injection but it has to be where we're aiming to be or theres no point to any of this.

[SomethingAboutObua]

Where we should be heading as the 3rd biggest club in Scotland after we're back in the top flight-

Scottish Cup-Quarter finals minimum every year, Semi finals minimum every 3 years, Winners every 4-6 years I think that's a fair goal for a cup competition.
League Cup-Not a clue because no one seems to care about it, same as Scottish Cup I suppose

League-Accept that the club needs to rise and fall within the league with player departures and to help bring through youth. But minimum is 5th place once every 5 years and at least 2 or 3 3rd place finishes

Something like this in a 5 year period and then repeated

League  3rd,   3rd,   5th,   4th,   3rd/4th -

Cups-     SF,   Win,   QF,     QF,       SF 

Europe-It won't happen straight away but we need to get to the latter stages of qualifying rounds, this new 3rd tier tournament we need to make the groups of that minimum as well.

Youth-Improve the gap between youth and first team, once we have 2 successful years that's when you lose your best players, favour the youth getting into the squad then and have them amongst our best players 2 years later

Signings-Be willing to put money into proven strikers as we have done with Boyce and Lafferty. Stop being a re-start your career club and retirement home like we tried under Levein as DoF, look where that's got us.  This isn't the MLS. Our ambition should be to have proven players at their prime not those well past it.
Go back to Robbie's recruitment of looking at the Netherlands, Portugal etc for good players on the cheap.
Sack John Murray and invest in good scouting
I don't know why we're terrified of 3 year deals but 2 and 5 years were thrown about for fun. So let's offer players 3 year deals again.

 

[TheOak88]

5 hours ago, Cruyff said:

You have some seriously low standards if you deem 5th or 6th to be acceptable. The managers feet shouldn't even touch the floor on the way out the door if we're finishing 5th.

 

 

Mind not that long ago when you were defending Levein staying as Manager after back to back 6th place finishes. 

[Cruyff]

Just now, TheOak88 said:

 

 

Mind not that long ago when you were defending Levein staying as Manager after back to back 6th place finishes. 

Maybe that's why I've changed my tune. 🤣

[Niemi’s gloves]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Aberdeen have managed to do this but it is unrealistic for Hearts to do so. 🤔🙄 

Aberdeen pretty much prove my point. Consistently in top 4 but never actually put in a serious challenge for the league and haven’t won either cup in recent years

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

I know, sadly.

Dunno what the answer is -  consistency without just outspending the rest of the league (some ****ing achievement, not) seems difficult. Levein, in his first period in charge, managed it against a decreasing budget so it must be possible.  
 

 

More recently Neilson was heading for matching Levein's two 3rds in a row before he left the first time. Getting hung up on budgets is pointless. If football went according to budgets Celtic would be winning the league by 30 points every season. I bet there hasn't been a single league season when 1st to 12th has matched the highest to lowest budget. When Neilson finished 3rd, we should really have finished further behind Aberdeen on points if we were only going on budgets. We also should have finished 3rd in the Championship the previous season.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 hours ago, Cruyff said:

That's the past and we've under achieved. 

4th place should be the yardstick of minimum expectations and anything below that should result in an instant dismissal. 

 

So you would have sacked Doddie the year before he went on to nearly win us the double? And JJ the season after winning the cup? He then went on to finish 3rd the following season. Likewise you would have sacked Levein the year before he went on to get two 3rds in a row and take us on a European adventure? It takes time to nurture youngsters and build a team. We don't have the resources to constantly rebuild teams every two seasons with manager after manager.

 

What about Fergie? Would you have sacked him at Man U because of his slow start there. Or Klopp, finishing 8th in his first season?

Edited November 11, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

So you would have sacked Doddie the year before he went on to nearly win us the double? And JJ the season after winning the cup? He then went on to finish 3rd the following season. Likewise you would have sacked Levein the year before he went on to get two 3rds in a row and take us on a European adventure? It takes time to nurture youngsters and build a team. We don't have the resources to constantly rebuild teams every two seasons with manager after manager.

What happened back in nineteen canteen is irrelevant and not comparable to where Hearts should be now. 

 

We didn't have the facilities, the stadium, the academy or the levels of turnover then.

 

We now have no debt and 8000 supporters donating 180k a month.

 

We are in a stronger position now than what we have been in decades. We are in a better position than any club outwith the OF and our performance on the pitch should reflect that. 

 

 

Aberdeen have finished in the top 4 seven seasons in a row.

 

Are you really suggesting that for Hearts to achieve what Aberdeen have is too ambitious and unrealistic? 🤣

 

Hearts should be finishing in the top 4 - every season. There is absolutely no excuse for us not to be. 

[gowestjambo]

4 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

This type of thread is good. It exposes different mentalities of supporters and what they accept/won’t accept.  
 

In Scottish terms I think we are definitely huge underachievers, and I’m not talking only in trophies. I’ve always longed for Hearts to find a new, engrained, almost automatic level of performance, that instead of 2 out of 5 seasons(just as a figure) being top 3, it becomes 4.  
 

We need more hunger around the club, and I include sections of fans, to want more, want better. Not just as a token gesture, something people are deeply passionate about. 
 

It’s not just “a few pints with the boys on a Saturday and a draw will do” outlook. 

 

It is cringeworthy to read how low some of our fans expectations are. How can the team ever compete with the very best, when our supporters are happy with anything from 6th to 3rd!! Until there is a Winning mentality instilled into every Director, Manager, Coach and Players nothing will change. I hear money is the major factor - we last won the League in 1960. (should have won in 1965 if Alan Gordon had not hit the ball like a fairy!) Are we really saying in the 60's and 70's we were unable to compete because of the huge difference in money?

 

We have fans defending terrible performances against lower league teams. Its ok as long as we win...Do Rangers and Celtic accept these performances from fringe palyers? Did Alex Ferguson and Jim McLean accept poor performances?

 

Vision and direction comes from the top. Can anyone watching the documentary think Ann Budge came accross as a hard nosed win at all costs CEO? She hardly came accross as a Dynamic Leader. I am not criticising Ann Budge for what she has done for Hearts, but she allowed our deterioration to go on far too long because she liked Craig Levein. These are not the actions of a Winner, and until we demand everyone connected with Hearts changes their focus, nothing will change.

 

Wether you think you can or you can't you are right. The world is full of underdogs performing above expectations, but those teams had a belief that they could achieve greatness. They never thought - third would be ok....

[Guest ToqueJambo]

13 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

What happened back in nineteen canteen is irrelevant and not comparable to where Hearts should be now. 

 

We didn't have the facilities, the stadium, the academy or the levels of turnover then.

 

We now have no debt and 8000 supporters donating 180k a month.

 

We are in a stronger position now than what we have been in decades. We are in a better position than any club outwith the OF and our performance on the pitch should reflect that. 

 

 

Aberdeen have finished in the top 4 seven seasons in a row.

 

Are you really suggesting that for Hearts to achieve what Aberdeen have is too ambitious and unrealistic? 🤣

 

Hearts should be finishing in the top 4 - every season. There is absolutely no excuse for us not to be. 

 

Comparatively speaking we did. Most of the clubs around us have improved their facilities and academies since then. I'm just questioning sacking managers for finishing 5th. Two 5ths in a row maybe, but then I like managers having a minimum of 3 seasons unless they are truly diabolical like Cathro or Tommy McLean. The league below the OF is quite competitive now. I agree once fan ownership is achieved if FoH money keeps coming in it should give us an extra edge but from watching Hearts for years a bit more money doesn't necessarily translate into more success. You also need a manager who can spend a bigger budget appropriately.

 

And Aberdeen have achieved nothing. One LC during a time when they only had to turn up to finish 2nd as half their competitors weren't there or were weakened.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Jambos_1874]

Our ambition should be to win the Scottish Premiership, not finish 3rd/4th. Winning the league IS POSSIBLE. The dominance of the OF (well, Celtic) will not go on forever and I genuinely believe that with effective recruitment, development of some promising players of the Hickey mould via the academy and the correct combination of players/management, it will just "click" and we will eventually win it. We as a club are not set up to win the league however. I don't think the fans, board and management believe it's possible and that's half the battle.

[Cruyff]

8 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Comparatively speaking we did. Most of the clubs around us have improved their facilities and academies since then. I'm just questioning sacking managers for finishing 5th. Two 5ths in a row maybe, but then I like managers having a minimum of 3 seasons unless they are truly diabolical like Cathro or Tommy McLean. The league below the OF is quite competitive now. I agree once fan ownership is achieved if FoH money keeps coming in it should give us an extra edge but from watching Hearts for years a bit more money doesn't necessarily translate into more success. You also need a manager who can spend a bigger budget appropriately.

 

And Aberdeen have achieved nothing. One LC during a time when they only had to turn up to finish 2nd as half their competitors weren't there or were weakened.

Mate. If we were to finish 5th, that would mean either Hibs, Kilmarnock or, Motherwell would  finish above us. 

So on what planet would that be acceptable? 

 

[Niemi’s gloves]

31 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

 

 

Wether you think you can or you can't you are right. The world is full of underdogs performing above expectations, but those teams had a belief that they could achieve greatness. They never thought - third would be ok....

The world is also full of abandoned football stadiums (not to mention numerous failed companies), the result of owners who believed they could achieve greatness. Tynecastle was almost one of them, courtesy of mad Vlad. Of course the are a few success stories but generally it takes more than “belief”. And very often it requires a willingness to accept some degree of failure as part of the learning curve.

[Vlad Magic]

I would like to see us move away from Tynecastle.

[Niemi’s gloves]

7 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Mate. If we were to finish 5th, that would mean either Hibs, Kilmarnock or, Motherwell would  finish above us. 

So on what planet would that be acceptable? 

 

Maybe on a  planet in which we were building a team to compete seriously with the OF?

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, Vlad Magic said:

I would like to see us move away from Tynecastle.

Why, Vlad?

[gowestjambo]

7 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

The world is also full of abandoned football stadiums (not to mention numerous failed companies), the result of owners who believed they could achieve greatness. Tynecastle was almost one of them, courtesy of mad Vlad. Of course the are a few success stories but generally it takes more than “belief”. And very often it requires a willingness to accept some degree of failure as part of the learning curve.

 

Everything starts with a thought. Thoughts repeated over time become beliefs. We operate our lives from our beliefs -- they run the show. This is why having an unyielding belief in your success is a critical first step. Without it, you'll hit a wall or become stagnant, and unable to reach your goals.

Success titans such as Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, Mark Cuban, J.K. Rowling and others like them, have one defining trait in common. They all possess an unwavering belief in the possibility of their success. This may be an obvious notion, but here is the prerequisite: You must be able to consistently uphold the belief that you can, and will, succeed.

A steadfast belief that you can be successful requires an unyielding confidence that, regardless where you are or what has happened to you in the past, anything is possible. Those who struggle with success are often doing so because they are straddling a fence. They have one foot on the side of possibility and the other foot on the side of "I'm not good enough."

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

Maybe on a  planet in which we were building a team to compete seriously with the OF?

If we were building a team to challenge the OF, surely they wouldn't be finishing behind Motherwell, Killie, Hibs and Aberdeen. 

 

If that happened to be the case, I don't think that team would have much hope of challenging the OF. 

[Cruyff]

7 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Why, Vlad?

Good question. 

[Morgan]

7 minutes ago, gowestjambo said:

 

Everything starts with a thought. Thoughts repeated over time become beliefs. We operate our lives from our beliefs -- they run the show. This is why having an unyielding belief in your success is a critical first step. Without it, you'll hit a wall or become stagnant, and unable to reach your goals.

Success titans such as Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, Mark Cuban, J.K. Rowling and others like them, have one defining trait in common. They all possess an unwavering belief in the possibility of their success. This may be an obvious notion, but here is the prerequisite: You must be able to consistently uphold the belief that you can, and will, succeed.

A steadfast belief that you can be successful requires an unyielding confidence that, regardless where you are or what has happened to you in the past, anything is possible. Those who struggle with success are often doing so because they are straddling a fence. They have one foot on the side of possibility and the other foot on the side of "I'm not good enough."

I’m quite sure you didn’t pen that yourself, gowest, but that’s an amazing quote you’ve posted just now.  People should read that, digest it and pay a huge amount of heed to it.

 

Nice one.  👍

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Morgan

[Morgan]

1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

Good question. 

It’s now a ‘bated breath’ moment, Johan.

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The past 8 years, Aberdeen benefited from us, Rangers, Hibs and D Utd being weakened for a long time. When it's been a stronger Premiership they've been no better or more consistent than us under Levein (first time around) or JJ. In fact they've been worse - 4th last season was serious underachievement - and their cup record is atrocious considering how many chances they've had to lift silverware. One LC is an appalling return.

 

 

It's hard to finish 3rd all the time, other teams will not roll over. 

In theory you shouldn't be able to really split us, Hibs or Aberdeen on paper yet the last ten years history makes the Edinburgh clubs look stupid. 

 

Aberdeens Cup return is poor but they have been at the business end more often than not. 

They more often than not have came up against celtic. 

For some reason they have been unable to lift more cups but looking forward it will be incredibly difficult too won a cup with celtic and rangers being so strong. 

 

Celtic winning 11 trophies in a ****ing row sums it up, I think we have the best chance to break what is Likley going to be a long time if trophies heading west. 

 

I think Aberdeen is where I want us to be in say 3 years , the difference is we'd have 19k Hearts fans every week and could maybe break through the ceiling they haven't. 

Long way to go tho. 

[RobNox]

We cannot compete with Celtic or Rangers on a financial basis, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have ambition to compete for and win league titles.

 

To do that, I think we need to find a way of implementing a lot of what Levein set out in his blueprint, but unfortunately wasn't able to deliver in practice.  Get the Academy producing a 'conveyor belt of talent' (apologies for the cliche), establish a style of play that we implement at all levels, so that players progressing through the system arrive at the first team ready to slot in.

 

Also, recruitment is vital these days, and ours has been fairly woeful in recent seasons.  We need to get that right if we are ever to hope to challenge for the title.  Identify emerging young players at other clubs who will fit into our style of play, and hope to develop them, combined with experienced players who may be out of favour or out of contract at other clubs, but who could benefit our team. 

 

Hopefully, if we got those aspects right, it would also allow us to make the odd 'big' signing, by which I mean paying a fee that is big in the context of our budget, but again, we would need to get the majority of these type of signings right, which hasn't been the case recently.

 

In terms of coaching / management, I don't think Levein's idea of developing our own coaches was ever practical.  In fact, it fell down as soon as Robbie left.  I think it goes back to the idea of establishing a style of play, and when one manager moves on, we bring in someone who has a similar philosophy, which could be from within if there is a genuine candidate, but doesn't have to be.  That worked well at Swansea, for several years.  Roberto Martinez got them playing a certain way and after he left they recruited Paulo Sousa, then Brendan Rodgers, then Michael Laudrup who all had similar footballing philosophies.  It's only when they moved away from this model that things started to unravel.

 

Apologies, I went on a bit longer than I meant to.

[One five]

A lot of great posts in here tbh,

 

Ambitions as a club.

 

I certainly think we should be challenging the OF more , ok they have a bigger budget than us so they may have a bigger pool of better players , but we should be up there every year asking questions and lifting silverware more often than we do.

 

A winning mentality and hungry for success can often be rewarding for any football club and with directors , manager and players with this attitude success would follow.

We should never go into ANY games excepting anything rather than a win and if we don't win be even hungrier for the next game to win . The team that wants to win it more often than not  ... does.

Ambitions as a club .

 

back to were we should be 

A force in the top league 

 

[Mysterion]

Ambitions as a club - 

 

1. Grow the supporter base (in order to do 2).

2. Grow the commercial side of the business (in order to have money to do 3).

3. Buy land around the ground. The school, if the distillery wish to scale back and move their operations to their other site we should be trying to obtain some of their land. We do this to facilitate ambition 4.

 

4. Workout how to expand/rebuild the Wheatfield and Roseburn ends with greater capacity to accommodate  more fans (and hospitality). This generated the revenue for 5.

 

5. All of these ideas come together to generate more money year on year for the player budget to build and challenge for the league...

[1971fozzy]

Aims ?

1) promotion 

2) top 6

3) top 4

4) top 3

 

a 4 year plan none the less 👍

[onwards and upwards]

10 hours ago, Deevers said:

Quite simple -our ambition should be to win every time our team sets foot on a football pitch no matter who we are playing.

Read this,

 enough said  

Close thread  

 

 

[onwards and upwards]

15 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Ambitions as a club - 

 

1. Grow the supporter base (in order to do 2).

2. Grow the commercial side of the business (in order to have money to do 3).

3. Buy land around the ground. The school, if the distillery wish to scale back and move their operations to their other site we should be trying to obtain some of their land. We do this to facilitate ambition 4.

 

4. Workout how to expand/rebuild the Wheatfield and Roseburn ends with greater capacity to accommodate  more fans (and hospitality). This generated the revenue for 5.

 

5. All of these ideas come together to generate more money year on year for the player budget to build and challenge for the league...

 

Agreed 👍 

[onwards and upwards]

I honestly only read those two post's I responded to. 

3 minutes ago, onwards and upwards said:

 

Agreed 👍 

That Scottish Cup in Gorgie for Christmas   

[RobNox]

2 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Ambitions as a club - 

 

1. Grow the supporter base (in order to do 2).

2. Grow the commercial side of the business (in order to have money to do 3).

3. Buy land around the ground. The school, if the distillery wish to scale back and move their operations to their other site we should be trying to obtain some of their land. We do this to facilitate ambition 4.

 

4. Workout how to expand/rebuild the Wheatfield and Roseburn ends with greater capacity to accommodate  more fans (and hospitality). This generated the revenue for 5.

 

5. All of these ideas come together to generate more money year on year for the player budget to build and challenge for the league...

 

A lot of good points there.  We are certainly hemmed in at the moment in terms of any further stadium expansion and even if land became available to expand any of the existing stands, we might struggle to make a decent business case to do so.  It would entail demolishing existing stands to build new ones.

 

How much capacity would we add if we were able to replace the Wheatfield with the equivalent of the new main stand?  A couple of thousand?  There's no way it would justify the cost.  Even if there was space to build a much larger Wheatfield stand, adding an extra tier say, it would cost a hell of a lot of money and we'd have to be confident that we could fill that stand most weeks to justify spending that sort of money.  Even then, I'm not sure that the business case would add up, even on a best case scenario.

 

An extreme scenario, if the distillery moved elsewhere and we were in a position to buy the land, would be to demolish the current stadium and reposition a new enlarged stadium within that overall footprint, perhaps adding other developments (housing, hotel, retail etc.)  Obviously that would be a massive undertaking and we'd need to be confident we had the supporter base to justify it.  However, the population of Edinburgh is growing and projected to keep doing so, so maybe we could grow the fan base significantly.

 

Which takes me back to your first point.  Above all else, to grow the fan base, we need to have a successful team on the pitch.  If we can't manage that, then everything else falls by the wayside.

[RobNox]

5 hours ago, Jamhammer said:

I remember when I started following Hearts in the early 80's my priorities were

1. Avoid relegation

2. Leather Hibs

3. Top half of table

4. 3rd best

5. Split the OF

6. Get to Cup Finals

7. Win trophoes

 

after 86 this was amended to include win the league. Times have changed but I live in hope, always. It can be done.

I started following Hearts in 1973 (1st January to be precise 😡) so my priority was pretty much restricted to #1 on your list.  The rest of your list was very much hopeless dreaming for me.  My #2 at that time would have been avoid being leathered by Hibs.  #4 would be 3rd worst, which is pretty much the same as #1, avoid relegation.

[Cruyff]

41 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

4. Workout how to expand/rebuild the Wheatfield and Roseburn ends with greater capacity to accommodate more fans (and hospitality). This generated the revenue for 5.

 

I've often thought about this and I think Tynecastle in its current form cannot be retrofitted for expansion, due to a lack of foresight and poor design.

 

I think it would be a case of building new stands or, an extremely expensive re-design of its current format. Cost-wise I don't think the return on that investment would justify its expense.

 

I know that 'filling in the corners' is something that some fans would like to see but I think the structural integrity of the stands roof trusses are linked into that of the floodlight pylons. Meaning that the structure of the roof would have to be changed to accommodate extra seats in the corners of the ground. Again cost-wise, for what it would be worth probably couldn't be justified.

 

So point 3 that you have made,

 

"Buy land around the ground. The school, if the distillery wish to scale back and move their operations to their other site we should be trying to obtain some of their land. We do this to facilitate ambition of point 4.

 

Could be a critical ambition if we want to expand or, rebuild in the future.

[Debut 4]

9 hours ago, gowestjambo said:

 

It is cringeworthy to read how low some of our fans expectations are. How can the team ever compete with the very best, when our supporters are happy with anything from 6th to 3rd!! Until there is a Winning mentality instilled into every Director, Manager, Coach and Players nothing will change. I hear money is the major factor - we last won the League in 1960. (should have won in 1965 if Alan Gordon had not hit the ball like a fairy!) Are we really saying in the 60's and 70's we were unable to compete because of the huge difference in money?

 

We have fans defending terrible performances against lower league teams. Its ok as long as we win...Do Rangers and Celtic accept these performances from fringe palyers? Did Alex Ferguson and Jim McLean accept poor performances?

 

Vision and direction comes from the top. Can anyone watching the documentary think Ann Budge came accross as a hard nosed win at all costs CEO? She hardly came accross as a Dynamic Leader. I am not criticising Ann Budge for what she has done for Hearts, but she allowed our deterioration to go on far too long because she liked Craig Levein. These are not the actions of a Winner, and until we demand everyone connected with Hearts changes their focus, nothing will change.

 

Wether you think you can or you can't you are right. The world is full of underdogs performing above expectations, but those teams had a belief that they could achieve greatness. They never thought - third would be ok....

Spot on for me, mate. Every word.  You know, football is about pushing everything to it’s limit and seeing where you land.  JJ from 1995 until 1998 as an example, showed we had a manager who’d repeatedly talked about it being too long since Hearts won a trophy.  He had the managerial talent to go with his words and built a fine team.  It landed short in the title hunt but we gave it a right good go. 
 

And for me, the cup win was borne out of the momentum from our league form. Everything then was about the team. Before he messed up, at least the pieman was committed to what was on the park and he swiftly made managerial changes when required.  We haven’t always challenged for the league or won cups but all those seasons we jumped in and out of 3rd was probably about how much desire we had to keep us at the right end of the table, and we had many memorable seasons finishing 3rd, being in Europe etc...without winning a cup. Sometimes it was our only consolation while dominating the derby too.
 

But at least the hunger always seemed to be there from top to bottom.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Debut 4

[Vlad Magic]

9 hours ago, Morgan said:

Why, Vlad?

Because if we ever move it’s because we need to. Staying at Tynie as fantastic as the place is and the history attached to it, staying only shows dare I say it “mediocrity”?

 

I would love it if we were forced to move to a bigger and better stadium because success has forced it upon us.

 

 

[TexasAndy]

14 hours ago, sadj said:

 

So you are saying don’t make a business plan? 🤔
 

Fergie and McLean were competing with an average Rangers team. I think in the first half of the 80s Rangers were something like 5th 3rd 5th 3rd 4th , Celtic were always there about but the financial gap was not the same back then. 
 

 

Yeah true but Celtic had come out of a 9 in a row in 70s, Rangers won two trebles.  The OF won every league from 66-80.  It's not a million miles from where we are now.

[Jamhammer]

9 hours ago, RobNox said:

I started following Hearts in 1973 (1st January to be precise 😡) so my priority was pretty much restricted to #1 on your list.  The rest of your list was very much hopeless dreaming for me.  My #2 at that time would have been avoid being leathered by Hibs.  #4 would be 3rd worst, which is pretty much the same as #1, avoid relegation.

Different times mate but, probably more fun being a fan.

Going to Dumbarton hoping desperately for a win rather than whining because we didn’t score 5 or 6