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On 30/10/2020 at 13:51, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


The fact that he equivocated over that mural says it all. At heart he is an anti-Semite. He might try to tell himself otherwise and he might show up in photos with Jewish people from time to time but he tolerates attitudes which can lead to discrimination and intimidation towards Jews. He knows what he’s doing.

 

In his life, he has never been anything other than a politician (and a wealthy one at that). He’s got no grasp on what normal people do or think and he’s infected by his own extreme biases. He lives in this world where everything is about protest and everything is a good-versus-bad battle. It’s glorified student politics and ultimately, he’s a bigoted lightweight who has been found out spectacularly.

 

The only people backing him are the weird cultists who’ve been around him for ages. Ordinary folk of most political persuasions can see him for what he is - in the same way that ordinary folk can see what an utter charlatan Boris Johnson is.

Absolute garbage. He supports the Palestinian cause as every right thinking human being should and so he is attacked by the Zionists and their many many friends in parliament and the media. It is actually frightening the power they have, while millions of Palestinians suffer in camps ignored by the world.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
20 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Absolute garbage. He supports the Palestinian cause as every right thinking human being should and so he is attacked by the Zionists and their many many friends in parliament and the media. It is actually frightening the power they have, while millions of Palestinians suffer in camps ignored by the world.


I’m not going to argue about the oppression of the Palestinians. It’s a disgrace.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 02/11/2020 at 12:22, XB52 said:

Absolute garbage. He supports the Palestinian cause as every right thinking human being should and so he is attacked by the Zionists and their many many friends in parliament and the media. It is actually frightening the power they have, while millions of Palestinians suffer in camps ignored by the world.

Well it appears the current leader of the Labour Party disagrees. Has withdrawn the whip from Jeremy Corbyn.

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35 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Well it appears the current leader of the Labour Party disagrees. Has withdrawn the whip from Jeremy Corbyn.

Starmer has to be seen to be taking robust measures John.

The pro Israel supporters are too powerful to upset.

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24 minutes ago, felix said:

Starmer has to be seen to be taking robust measures John.

The pro Israel supporters are too powerful to upset.

As demonstrated in the US where Pompeo has announced today that Palestinian support groups are officially anti Semitic. 

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49 minutes ago, Tazio said:

As demonstrated in the US where Pompeo has announced today that Palestinian support groups are officially anti Semitic. 

It's been going on for years (I'm sure you know).  Any criticirm of Israel or dealings with Palestinian supporting groups is tarnished as anti Semitic.  I remember MP Michael Ancrum was called an anti Semite, for talking to Helbollah after the invasion of Lebanon -  in his then role as shadow foreign secretary.

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A Boy Named Crow

I've never really understood the basis for the claims of anti-Semitism*. I went looking for more on the story using my trusty investigative buddy, Google. I've just read through this article from the BBC 

 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-45030552

 

Honestly, from this summary of events, you can only really conclude that he isn't a fan of the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians,  and that elements of his party really,  really don't like him. 

 

None of this makes him an anti-Semite* though  does it? Feels like a hatchet job to me!

 

(* Note - Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages, to use it only in reference to Jewish people is stupid, but it's what folk do, hey-ho)

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1 hour ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I've never really understood the basis for the claims of anti-Semitism*. I went looking for more on the story using my trusty investigative buddy, Google. I've just read through this article from the BBC 

 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-45030552

 

Honestly, from this summary of events, you can only really conclude that he isn't a fan of the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians,  and that elements of his party really,  really don't like him. 

 

None of this makes him an anti-Semite* though  does it? Feels like a hatchet job to me!

 

(* Note - Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages, to use it only in reference to Jewish people is stupid, but it's what folk do, hey-ho)

 

Most people get confused between anti semitic and anti zionism. 

 

You cant be the latter without being called a nazi it seems. 

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56 minutes ago, indianajones said:

 

Most people get confused between anti semitic and anti zionism. 

 

You cant be the latter without being called a nazi it seems. 


If Hamas won’t recognise Israel then why should Israel recognise Palestine? 
 

Nationalism it seems is only favourable if it’s your own brand of nationalism. 
 

The real problem isn’t what you state but that most haven’t been to Israel or Palestine to really see what it’s like. I was amazed the difference in reality compared to the media’s view we get of this region. Ordinary people the world over are generally good and honest. Watch some videos on YouTube of travel in both countries. Look at the history and why Israel and the state of Palestine acts as it does. Condemnation from of Israel always amuses as we bomb and destabilise the Middle East and let’s not forget the Troubles. 

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Governor Tarkin
15 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

It's obscene how Corbyn has been treated by Labour. An absolute disgrace. 

 

I'm not the biggest fan of Corbyn but find this difficult to disagree with. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Labour establishment's mask continuing to slip, and what's really going on continuing to be revealed. Really powerful words from Ms Wimborne-Idrissi here.

 

 

“It undermines the fight against real antisemitism—this is one of the most frightening things for me. People have been weaponising accusations of antisemitism for political ends. The fact that that has been going on seriously undermines and endangers our chances of dealing with genuine antisemitism.”

 

“One of the biggest problems we face is the treatment of our community as if it was just one, monolithic bloc. This is the typical trope of all forms of racism. The Jewish community is not one, undifferentiated thing. Its opinions vary, just like every other section of the community.”

 

“The media has totally sidelined and ignored left-wing Jews [and] eminent Jewish scholars who have written extensively on the subject of antisemitism in the Labour Party and demonstrated that the definition that is being pushed... is untrustworthy, faulty, actually dangerous, because it conflates being Jewish with being a supporter of Israel, being Jewish with being a Zionist.”

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2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

Labour establishment's mask continuing to slip, and what's really going on continuing to be revealed. Really powerful words from Ms Wimborne-Idrissi here.

 

 

“It undermines the fight against real antisemitism—this is one of the most frightening things for me. People have been weaponising accusations of antisemitism for political ends. The fact that that has been going on seriously undermines and endangers our chances of dealing with genuine antisemitism.”

 

“One of the biggest problems we face is the treatment of our community as if it was just one, monolithic bloc. This is the typical trope of all forms of racism. The Jewish community is not one, undifferentiated thing. Its opinions vary, just like every other section of the community.”

 

“The media has totally sidelined and ignored left-wing Jews [and] eminent Jewish scholars who have written extensively on the subject of antisemitism in the Labour Party and demonstrated that the definition that is being pushed... is untrustworthy, faulty, actually dangerous, because it conflates being Jewish with being a supporter of Israel, being Jewish with being a Zionist.”

She speaks a whole lot of sense. Strange how the balanced views she has - aren't reported on MSM much.

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On 03/12/2020 at 14:43, Justin Z said:

Labour establishment's mask continuing to slip, and what's really going on continuing to be revealed. Really powerful words from Ms Wimborne-Idrissi here.

 

 

“It undermines the fight against real antisemitism—this is one of the most frightening things for me. People have been weaponising accusations of antisemitism for political ends. The fact that that has been going on seriously undermines and endangers our chances of dealing with genuine antisemitism.”

 

“One of the biggest problems we face is the treatment of our community as if it was just one, monolithic bloc. This is the typical trope of all forms of racism. The Jewish community is not one, undifferentiated thing. Its opinions vary, just like every other section of the community.”

 

“The media has totally sidelined and ignored left-wing Jews [and] eminent Jewish scholars who have written extensively on the subject of antisemitism in the Labour Party and demonstrated that the definition that is being pushed... is untrustworthy, faulty, actually dangerous, because it conflates being Jewish with being a supporter of Israel, being Jewish with being a Zionist.”

 

She's now suspended from Starmer's Labour party.

Seems to be a clear out of anyone who's oppposed the anti semitism rhetoric.

John McDonnell will be next.

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-suspends-senior-jvl-official-after-deeply-unpleasant-meeting-1.509331

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29 minutes ago, felix said:

 

She's now suspended from Starmer's Labour party.

Seems to be a clear out of anyone who's oppposed the anti semitism rhetoric.

John McDonnell will be next.

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-suspends-senior-jvl-official-after-deeply-unpleasant-meeting-1.509331

 

Yes, apologies for not making clear that was my reason for sharing the video in the first place.

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15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Yes, apologies for not making clear that was my reason for sharing the video in the first place.

 

Chomsky summed it up well when he said that his views on the state of Israel had not changed in 70 years. He used to be called a Zionist but now he's an anti-semite.

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Weakened Offender
On 02/11/2020 at 12:22, XB52 said:

Absolute garbage. He supports the Palestinian cause as every right thinking human being should and so he is attacked by the Zionists and their many many friends in parliament and the media. It is actually frightening the power they have, while millions of Palestinians suffer in camps ignored by the world.

 

This. 

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4 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Chomsky summed it up well when he said that his views on the state of Israel had not changed in 70 years. He used to be called a Zionist but now he's an anti-semite.

 

Do you know where I can find his full remarks on this?

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On 05/12/2020 at 23:01, Justin Z said:

 

Do you know where I can find his full remarks on this?

 

I can't find the exact quote. I don't think i made it up though. It's far too poignant for me. 

 

This link https://labourbriefing.org/blog/2019/7/30/noam-chomsky-speaks-out-on-antisemism-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-labour-party  alludes to the same point though you've probably seen it already.

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Just substitute the word ‘Zionist’ for Jewish and you can say whatever you like. Trying to find equivalent alternatives for Muslim, Catholic, etc. but no luck so far.

 

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5 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Just substitute the word ‘Zionist’ for Jewish and you can say whatever you like. 

 

Yep.

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1 hour ago, weehammy said:

Just substitute the word ‘Zionist’ for Jewish and you can say whatever you like. Trying to find equivalent alternatives for Muslim, Catholic, etc. but no luck so far.

 

 

Why shouldn't you be able to say whatever you like about Zionism - it's a political ideology ?

 

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10 minutes ago, felix said:

 

Why shouldn't you be able to say whatever you like about Zionism - it's a political ideology ?

 

I don't think that's what he's saying.

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36 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I don't think that's what he's saying.

Possibly. The point may be you can say what you want about Jews, by hiding behind the word: "Zionist" but Muslims and Catholics don't have the same protective codewords, which I thought was ridiculous.

Could be wrong though.

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10 minutes ago, felix said:

Possibly. The point may be you can say what you want about Jews, by hiding behind the word: "Zionist" but Muslims and Catholics don't have the same protective codewords, which I thought was ridiculous.

Could be wrong though.

That was the point as I understood it, and I agree with it.

Not sure about the "Catholic" and "Mislim" point?

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13 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That was the point as I understood it, and I agree with it.

Not sure about the "Catholic" and "Mislim" point?

I'm sure weehammy will be along to explain, but then again, if the suggestion's Catholics & Muslims don't have interchangeable words for critics of malpractice within these religions to use - maybe not.

Everyone should be free to call out terrorism; child abuse and Zionism, on any level, without being labelled an Islamophobe, bigot or anti Semite.

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Just now, felix said:

 

Everyone should be free to call out terrorism; child abuse and Zionism, on any level, without being labelled an Islamophobe, bigot or anti Semite.

I agree with that, but there's no doubt that the the word "Zionist" was used when "Jew" was meant, particularly in the far left of the Labout Party recently.

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10 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I agree with that, but there's no doubt that the the word "Zionist" was used when "Jew" was meant, particularly in the far left of the Labout Party recently.

 

I think there is considerable doubt. You'll obviously be able to provide some evidence to support your statement though. 

 

You clearly don't believe the woman in the wrong type of Jew video.

 

Chomsky seems to agree with me. He thinks the holocaust has been weaponised to persecute anti-zionists including some in the Labour party. Chomsky thinks this form of victimisation is not new and has been a deliberate strategy carried out by some zionists for over 50 years. Is he wrong?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

 

You clearly don't believe the woman in the wrong type of Jew video.

 

 

 

 

She as her oppinion, I sympathise more with others, like the people drivenbout of the Labour Party by anti semitism.

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4 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

 

Chomsky seems to agree with me. He thinks the holocaust has been weaponised to persecute anti-zionists including some in the Labour party. Chomsky thinks this form of victimisation is not new and has been a deliberate strategy carried out by some zionists for over 50 years. Is he wrong?

 

 

He has a different view then others.

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14 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I agree with that, but there's no doubt that the the word "Zionist" was used when "Jew" was meant, particularly in the far left of the Labout Party recently.

Even if true, that's specualtive, it's not a crime, and it's not what the 2 Labour members who were found guilty in the Human Rights report were accused of.

What's in no doubt, is that it's a commonly recognised trick, to  accuse a supporter or Palestine or an anti-Zionist of being an anti -Semite. They're completely different things.

And if you want to watch Corbyns enemies within the party eg Labour friends of Israel chair Joan Ryan, making up  false claims of anti-semitisnm in Labour - watch episode 3 of The Lobby.

 

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1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

She as her oppinion, I sympathise more with others, like the people drivenbout of the Labour Party by anti semitism.

 

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

He has a different view then others.

 

I think this is very largely a campaign to discredit Corbyn and the Labour left. Corbyn and others are supporters of Jewish groups. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

 

Corbyn may be all kinds of idiot but whatever else he is he is not a bigot and neither are Williamson or Wadsworth. It just doesn't go with the territory of being left wing however much our press would wish it to be so.

 

Chomsky's views are different to some but he is world renowned as an academic and has intimate knowledge of what has happened and what is happening in Israel and in Jewish matters generally. He is a fierce critic of the way anti-semitism is being interpreted nowadays.

 

What was Corbyn's crime? Was it to say that he thought the anti-semitism issue was overstated? Do you really think it appropriate for him to be suspended for that or do you think there might just be another agenda?

 

Chomsky tells us the application of IHRA guidelines is politically motivated, a far more serious claim.

 

Have you got any examples of Labour left politicians using the word Zionist when they really mean Jewish? 

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2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

I think this is very largely a campaign to discredit Corbyn and the Labour left. Corbyn and others are supporters of Jewish groups. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

 

Corbyn may be all kinds of idiot but whatever else he is he is not a bigot and neither are Williamson or Wadsworth. It just doesn't go with the territory of being left wing however much our press would wish it to be so.

 

Chomsky's views are different to some but he is world renowned as an academic and has intimate knowledge of what has happened and what is happening in Israel and in Jewish matters generally. He is a fierce critic of the way anti-semitism is being interpreted nowadays.

 

What was Corbyn's crime? Was it to say that he thought the anti-semitism issue was overstated? Do you really think it appropriate for him to be suspended for that or do you think there might just be another agenda?

 

Chomsky tells us the application of IHRA guidelines is politically motivated, a far more serious claim.

 

Have you got any examples of Labour left politicians using the word Zionist when they really mean Jewish? 

We'll have to agree to disagree, we're obviously never going to agree and this will just descend into an argument.

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2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

We'll have to agree to disagree, we're obviously never going to agree and this will just descend into an argument.

 

One question then. Do you think Corbyn's expulsion from the parliamentary party for his "overstated" comment was justified?

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1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

One question then. Do you think Corbyn's expulsion from the parliamentary party for his "overstated" comment was justified?

Yes, he became tainted, rightly or wrongly, he allowed the antisemitic factions of the left to coalesce around the Labour Party leadership, I'm not convinced he'd spray swastikas of synagogues himself but he'd be slow to condem such actions!

Anyone who allows antisemitism to flourish as it did, while leading any party should be expelled imo. Lets not forget that it was jewish people who felt threatened i  the party.

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40 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Yes, he became tainted, rightly or wrongly, he allowed the antisemitic factions of the left to coalesce around the Labour Party leadership, I'm not convinced he'd spray swastikas of synagogues himself but he'd be slow to condem such actions!

Anyone who allows antisemitism to flourish as it did, while leading any party should be expelled imo. Lets not forget that it was jewish people who felt threatened i  the party.

 

So why did they not take steps to suspend him after the report came out and before the "overstated"comment? Presumably, because they had nothing on him.

I cannot believe that Corbyn was slow to condemn swastikas being sprayed on synagogues, such things are very sensitive and uncommon in the UK. I do not know that antisemitism could be said to have flourished either since there were only two instances quoted in the Human Rights report.

  

Feeling threatened and being threatened are two different things are they not. Who actually was threatened and in what way and by whom? I'm not aware of this. I have seen some allegations which did result in prosecutions and others that did not. These took place while Corbyn was leader. 

 

 If however you believe all this to be true and many do why did the Labour Party not deal with it immediately after the report was published? Were they not bothered about all these indiscretions? Did they think the anti-semitism would disappear when Corbyn was no longer leader even though the alleged anti-semitic factions on the left of the Labour party were and are still there?

 

Is it not absolutely absurd that Corbyn was suspended from the party and then removed from the parliamentary party because he said that the incidences of anti-semitism had been overstated by the enemies of the Labour party when the official report mentioned only two actual events. This despite Corbyn also saying that "one was one too many". Wasn't it under Corbyn's watch that anti-semites were suspended, have they all disappeared now or were there hardly any in the first place?

 

IMO they suspended him because he is a socialist and because he supports equality for all groups.

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2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

IMO they suspended him because he is a socialist and because he supports equality for all groups.

Apart from Jews!

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Just now, coconut doug said:

 

Where's your evidence?

C'mon!!! Was the Labour Party investigated by the human right commision under any other leader? Were  Jews hounded out of the party under any other leader to the extent they were under Corbyn? Is you're sounding like an apologist for the people who brought the party the state it found itself in, it doesn't matter what I or anyone says, you've got your mind made up. I'll leave this here now. Have a good evening. 

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3 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

:lol:

Remember when the then Labour MP Luciana Berger had to have her own police escort at the Labour Party Conference?
That was ok because she was a ‘Zionist’.

 

:gok:

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2 hours ago, weehammy said:

Remember when the then Labour MP Luciana Berger had to have her own police escort at the Labour Party Conference?
That was ok because she was a ‘Zionist’.

 

:gok:

You do know that the anti semitic abuse Luciana Berger received,  justifying the police escort, was from right-wing fascists, who had nothing to do with  the Labour Party, three of whom were jailed !? 

 

One Labour party member (Nick Nelson) did receieve a suspended sentence for calling her a Tory **** - but that's not on the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. :thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, felix said:

You do know that the anti semitic abuse Luciana Berger received,  justifying the police escort, was from right-wing fascists, who had nothing to do with  the Labour Party, three of whom were jailed !? 

 

One Labour party member (Nick Nelson) did receieve a suspended sentence for calling her a Tory **** - but that's not on the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. :thumbsup:

 

I was just about to post something very similar. You can imagine my surprise though when i discovered that the guy who got the longest prison sentence for abusing her was a member of the Conservative party. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022701/Drunk-Tory-hopeful-18-broke-police-station-steal-uniform-thrown-hotel.html  

 

 The chair of her former constituency party was also described as being anti-semitic when she was deselected despite being a jew himself. She took a fair bit of abuse for various actions including a refusal to back Corbyn and appearing on platforms with right wingers like Ian Paisley. 

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2 hours ago, felix said:

You do know that the anti semitic abuse Luciana Berger received,  justifying the police escort, was from right-wing fascists, who had nothing to do with  the Labour Party, three of whom were jailed !? 

 

One Labour party member (Nick Nelson) did receieve a suspended sentence for calling her a Tory **** - but that's not on the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism. :thumbsup:

Aha those nasty right-wingers. Of all the various Jewish MPs I wonder why they picked on her? Now where’s my bucket of whitewash?

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20 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I was just about to post something very similar. You can imagine my surprise though when i discovered that the guy who got the longest prison sentence for abusing her was a member of the Conservative party. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022701/Drunk-Tory-hopeful-18-broke-police-station-steal-uniform-thrown-hotel.html  

 

 The chair of her former constituency party was also described as being anti-semitic when she was deselected despite being a jew himself. She took a fair bit of abuse for various actions including a refusal to back Corbyn and appearing on platforms with right wingers like Ian Paisley. 

 

Indeed, and not terribly well reported, whilst photos of her with a police escort at the Labour convention were everywhere, with the obvious assumption it's Labour dishing out the threats & abuse. As Corbyn said, she wasn't in any danger whilst in the convention, only in moving between  venues were police present.

Obvioulsy hated Corbyn , and had an agenda. It was her that first complained about Corbyn's reaction to the mural .

Just now, weehammy said:

Aha those nasty right-wingers. Of all the various Jewish MPs I wonder why they picked on her? Now where’s my bucket of whitewash?

 

The targetting of Berger  isn't something to make flippant comments about. One of the facists claimed she'd : "get it like Jo Cox".

That might explain the police protection, or maybe you still think it's Corbyn, and the 0.3% of Labour Party members with a complaint against them, that were after her.

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Luciana Berger didn't leave the Labour Party because of antisemitic abuse from the far right, she left because of abuse from within the Labour Party. She suffered abuse from the right and the left.

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9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Luciana Berger didn't leave the Labour Party because of antisemitic abuse from the far right, she left because of abuse from within the Labour Party. She suffered abuse from the right and the left.

 

I noticed you left the word antisemitic out of your abuse claim against Labour. Is that because you can't find any?

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1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

I noticed you left the word antisemitic out of your abuse claim against Labour. Is that because you can't find any?

No, it's because it was obvious.

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