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Dunfermline ownership


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iwasthere1954

We all know that at present FoH is handing over 1.5 million in this financial year. But what if this falls off and were only handing over half that amount. In my opinion we would have to consider a sensible approach where we were offered a substantial sum for 25% of the club. I think a lot of Kickback members think we can compete with the bigger clubs in this league without additional funds. We of course have to build in safeguards to protect the club but I think we would be foolish to reject it without at least looking at it in detail.

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1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

We were led by supporters for over 100 years with very mixed outcomes which led to us being taken over by Mercer ( non supporter ) then Robinson/Deans ( supporters ) then Romanov and finally Ann/Foh ). All of these were due to pressing financial issues, except Mercer who just wanted out with some cash 


Now that we don’t have the pressing financial issues, we shouldn’t even entertain the idea.

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Just now, Beast Boy said:


Even then there are pitfalls. We would need to own the other 50.1% and we would need to be sure that the fans/FoH were bright enough to spot a ***** when he scuttled up with claims of this that and the other.

Sorry, I meant that we should always own the 50.1% of issued share capital.  Means we could sell 24.9% of the 75% we will eventually have in the FoH.

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Just now, Beast Boy said:


Now that we don’t have the pressing financial issues, we shouldn’t even entertain the idea.

I can’t see why we should at the moment but things change over time and who knows where Scottish football will be in 5, 10 or 20 years time. 

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Just now, Heartsofgold said:

Sorry, I meant that we should always own the 50.1% of issued share capital.  Means we could sell 24.9% of the 75% we will eventually have in the FoH.


I’d be fine with that, but I suspect that nobody would be interested in getting involved for just 24.9%, AND be willing to put money in that they didn’t demand back.
 

 

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1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

I can’t see why we should at the moment but things change over time and who knows where Scottish football will be in 5, 10 or 20 years time. 


Hopefully it will be out the gutter.

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lost in space

By becoming fan owned, we are "guaranteeing" the future of the club - but will never be able to compete with the glasgow 2.  If someone offered to invest so that we could compete of course we should consider, as long as we could ensure our future livlihood.

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11 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Fergus McCan for one, Stuart Milne for two, Dick Donald for three, David Murray is four, Eddie Thompson rounds it to five and that’s just straight off the top of my head. 

Well yes... and no.       

 

Yes - Fergus bought in to rescue Sellick when they were close to a financial basket case in a crumbling old stadium....  set out  a 5 year plan after which he'd leave with a nice profit.   Did exactly that, but still got vilified by a lot of their unwashed fans because he was rich and not "sellick enough" for them.

 

Yes - Murray certainly pumped money in and attracted lots of sponsors and other investors and transformed Rangers by going down the Euro and English internationalist route.

 

Yes - Dick Donald presided over the "glory years".  How much was down to his business expertise and financial input, rather than appointing astute managers,  is up for debate.

 

No - Milne and Thompson.   Not sure you could argue that they masterminded a positive turnaround in their clubs.  Thompson eventually got in after Jim McLean's star started to wane and he decided enough was enough.   Apart from a Cup win and some big money player sales (which would be down to Levein and Houston), there was nothing transformational that I can think of.  Milne presided over some dud manager appointments as well as decent ones like Craig Brown and McInnes - he was instrumental in winning approval for the new stadium certainly, but there was never any chance of a return to the Fergie glory years.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:


I’d be fine with that, but I suspect that nobody would be interested in getting involved for just 24.9%, AND be willing to put money in that they didn’t demand back.
 

 

Quite possibly but then that's their problem.  They don't like it they can lick our plums.

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Just now, lost in space said:

By becoming fan owned, we are "guaranteeing" the future of the club - but will never be able to compete with the glasgow 2.  If someone offered to invest so that we could compete of course we should consider, as long as we could ensure our future livlihood.

As hinted at earlier, check out Blackburn, within a few years of Jacks death they couldn't compete in the transfer market! If we are priced out of signing players, unlikely at the moment, we would have no choice! I short id Scottish footie remains as crap we are probably fine at our 3rd best level! If Scottish footie sees inflation in signing fees/ wages we would at some point likely fall behind???

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5 minutes ago, lost in space said:

By becoming fan owned, we are "guaranteeing" the future of the club - but will never be able to compete with the glasgow 2.  If someone offered to invest so that we could compete of course we should consider, as long as we could ensure our future livlihood.

This is the truth of the matter

we will be safe sure, but there will always be a limit to our ambitions as a fan owned club

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18 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

So therefore what happens to the money?  It cannot remain with the foundation if there is not reason.  Imagine if some rish punter spent £10 million on the clubs shares, where does that go?

I think that would need to be agreed by the Members at the point in time but it was a deliberate decision to avoid giving members a pecuniary interest that might unduly influence their vote iirc. 

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6 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

Quite possibly but then that's their problem.  They don't like it they can lick our plums.


Indeed. As long as the ratio of naive supporters in FoH stays low.

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The Treasurer

I hope the media ask the question every Scottish  football fan needs to know "are they sellik minded or sevco minded "

Nothing else is important

 

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19 minutes ago, Fun Boaby said:

I wonder what the attraction is with them? Do the investors see something no-one else does?

 

Uncle Vlad wanted to buy them too

Good point....   It's funny at a time when fans cannot attend games....  Makes increasing support more difficult..

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Bazzas right boot

Tbh, I'd sell my granny if it meant us winning the league. 

 

If we won the league then went into liquidation a few years later I wouldn't be giving a ****, I'd die a happy man. 

Not a balanced or logical view but if it meant winning the league I couldn't care about being fan owned,  the future or pretty much anything Tbh. 

 

Ofc, we could burn out, win **** all and tossed away like a old juice can. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

I think that would need to be agreed by the Members at the point in time but it was a deliberate decision to avoid giving members a pecuniary interest that might unduly influence their vote iirc. 

Very good point Dave.  Thought it would need a final vote from members to be honest but wasn't sure it I'd missed something is all the FoH blurb.

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15 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Well yes... and no.       

 

Yes - Fergus bought in to rescue Sellick when they were close to a financial basket case in a crumbling old stadium....  set out  a 5 year plan after which he'd leave with a nice profit.   Did exactly that, but still got vilified by a lot of their unwashed fans because he was rich and not "sellick enough" for them.

 

Yes - Murray certainly pumped money in and attracted lots of sponsors and other investors and transformed Rangers by going down the Euro and English internationalist route.

 

Yes - Dick Donald presided over the "glory years".  How much was down to his business expertise and financial input, rather than appointing astute managers,  is up for debate.

 

No - Milne and Thompson.   Not sure you could argue that they masterminded a positive turnaround in their clubs.  Thompson eventually got in after Jim McLean's star started to wane and he decided enough was enough.   Apart from a Cup win and some big money player sales (which would be down to Levein and Houston), there was nothing transformational that I can think of.  Milne presided over some dud manager appointments as well as decent ones like Craig Brown and McInnes - he was instrumental in winning approval for the new stadium certainly, but there was never any chance of a return to the Fergie glory years.

 

 

I’ll maybe agree re Thompson though he invested lots and the club did prosper under his ownership but ultimately failed, though his ill health was probably a factor. Milne had about 20+ years of significant ownership, investment and relative success at Aberdeen. Without his investment they would possibly be a lower league club by now. He also masterminded their training ground and the planning for the stadium. Don’t think anyone could look in his tenure as anything but largely successful in terms of growing the football club. 

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2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

I’ll maybe agree re Thompson though he invested lots and the club did prosper under his ownership but ultimately failed, though his ill health was probably a factor. Milne had about 20+ years of significant ownership, investment and relative success at Aberdeen. Without his investment they would possibly be a lower league club by now. He also masterminded their training ground and the planning for the stadium. Don’t think anyone could look in his tenure as anything but largely successful in terms of growing the football club. 


Neither Thompson nor Milne achieved anything we couldn’t, and I seriously doubt they put in £1.5m p/a.

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38 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:


Gambling with the future of your football club IS ridiculous.

 

I'm not advocating it for us but as FF has highlighted it can work and I'm not sure Dunfermline have that much to lose.

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Just now, Beast Boy said:


Neither Thompson nor Milne achieved anything we couldn’t, and I seriously doubt they put in £1.5m p/a.

Maybe, but point is we haven’t achieved what Milne has. Just look at last 7  seasons. Never out of top 4, umpteen semis and finals, one league cup win, in Europe every year. We have never had an owner, external or otherwise, that achieved anything like that in the last 50 years. That should have been us but  hasn’t been. I’d also suggest that both of them put in significant chunks of money over a long period of time otherwise there’s been lots of false reporting both  financial and in the media. 

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3 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:


Neither Thompson nor Milne achieved anything we couldn’t, and I seriously doubt they put in £1.5m p/a.

 

The difference with McCann certainly and to some extent Holmes / Murray, they modernised and gained the natural value that existed within their clubs. They fulfilled their potential. 

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The Old Tolbooth
1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Which hat is the Dunfermline chairman wearing and where did their ethics suddenly appear from ?

 

My thoughts exactly, where did that bullying arsehole Ross McCarthur get morals and ethics from? 

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1 minute ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

I'm not advocating it for us but as FF has highlighted it can work and I'm not sure Dunfermline have that much to lose.


Fair enough. I’m way beyond wishing DAFC well, but I used to have a bit of time for them. Purely from a big club in Scotland doing well perspective, I didn’t really want to see them suffer like they did after Masterson ****ed them. Now I couldn’t care. If I did still give a **** about them or most other Scottish clubs, Id be sad to see them risking their existence. They’d just got themselves back to near the top of the Scottish Football’s pyramid, and now they are probably risking their future again. 

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43 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:


Gambling with the future of your football club IS ridiculous.

If you don’t think becoming a fan-owned football club isn’t a huge gamble then I’m not sure it’s worth debating with you. FoH gambled on it because it was the only show in town when we went into administration. Just read Murray’s book - it was a huge gamble then and still is now. Otherwise why are most other clubs not following in our footsteps?  

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Just now, Beast Boy said:


Fair enough. I’m way beyond wishing DAFC well, but I used to have a bit of time for them. Purely from a big club in Scotland doing well perspective, I didn’t really want to see them suffer like they did after Masterson ****ed them. Now I couldn’t care. If I did still give a **** about them or most other Scottish clubs, Id be sad to see them risking their existence. They’d just got themselves back to near the top of the Scottish Football’s pyramid, and now they are probably risking their future again. 

I’m not sure what their fan ownership model is and whether it delivers future investment like ours does. 

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5 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Maybe, but point is we haven’t achieved what Milne has. Just look at last 7  seasons. Never out of top 4, umpteen semis and finals, one league cup win, in Europe every year. We have never had an owner, external or otherwise, that achieved anything like that in the last 50 years. That should have been us but  hasn’t been. I’d also suggest that both of them put in significant chunks of money over a long period of time otherwise there’s been lots of false reporting both  financial and in the media. 


He’s achieved **** all though. One league Cup, that’s it. Most of those seven years of relative success is exactly where we’d be too without our rivals being in the same division and a bit of financial security.

 

What has Milne put in that is worth the risk to our future, that we could not through FoH? 🤷‍♂️

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5 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Maybe, but point is we haven’t achieved what Milne has. Just look at last 7  seasons. Never out of top 4, umpteen semis and finals, one league cup win, in Europe every year. We have never had an owner, external or otherwise, that achieved anything like that in the last 50 years. That should have been us but  hasn’t been. I’d also suggest that both of them put in significant chunks of money over a long period of time otherwise there’s been lots of false reporting both  financial and in the media. 

Valid points and comparison - they are the club we should be trying to emulate.  One  big difference between Aberdeen and us is stability at the top.    Milne's wealth and love of his club  has been important - and he's not been slow to fire under-performing managers - while we've been trying to find our feet after the Romanov rollercoaster ride & crash.    We thought we had recovered by 2016, but the football management since then has been woeful and Ann was too loyal to Levein to change things until it was too late.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

If you don’t think becoming a fan-owned football club isn’t a huge gamble then I’m not sure it’s worth debating with you. FoH gambled on it because it was the only show in town when we went into administration. Just read Murray’s book - it was a huge gamble then and still is now. Otherwise why are most other clubs not following in our footsteps?  

You answered your own final question there !!

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15 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:


He’s achieved **** all though. One league Cup, that’s it. Most of those seven years of relative success is exactly where we’d be too without our rivals being in the same division and a bit of financial security.

 

What has Milne put in that is worth the risk to our future, that we could not through FoH? 🤷‍♂️

Point is though we haven’t over the last 50 years so how can you say it’s where we would be? Milne has put in significantly more money than FoH to date. 

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13 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Valid points and comparison - they are the club we should be trying to emulate.  One  big difference between Aberdeen and us is stability at the top.    Milne's wealth and love of his club  has been important - and he's not been slow to fire under-performing managers - while we've been trying to find our feet after the Romanov rollercoaster ride & crash.    We thought we had recovered by 2016, but the football management since then has been woeful and Ann was too loyal to Levein to change things until it was too late.  

 

 

Agreed. 

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5 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

If I win the EuroLottery tonight the club will be in safe hands. 

That would make for interesting times Dave, or should that be Colin? 
We may never be faced with the scenario but if there was a genuine fan wishing to buy the club and invest £25m+ with guaranteed limits on debt levels it would be hard, and self-harming, to say no. 

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Footballfirst

If FOH was offered £20m for their shareholding, the FOH articles of association currently only allows for that money to either be put straight back into the club, or passed to an organisation with similar objectives, e.g. promotion of local sport and community activities.

 

If the membership chose to put that £20m straight back into the club, even on a phased basis, then it would certainly give the club a financial boost, but at the cost of loss of ownership and control.

 

Alternatively, the club could issue new shares, as DAFC are doing. That would see the FOH holding (and it's value) diluted proportionately to the amount of new money invested.  There is an element of suck and see to the DAFC approach in giving up 30%  and control of the Board initially.  I don't know if the "option" to increase the investor's holding works both ways, i.e. if the Pars United CIC and Pars Trust could say no to the second tranche.   

Edited by Footballfirst
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14 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

That would make for interesting times Dave, or should that be Colin? 
We may never be faced with the scenario but if there was a genuine fan wishing to buy the club and invest £25m+ with guaranteed limits on debt levels it would be hard, and self-harming, to say no. 

Colin? 🤔

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14 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

If FOH was offered £20m for their shareholding, the FOH articles of association currently only allows for that money to either be put straight back into the club, or passed to an organisation with similar objectives, e.g. promotion of local sport and community activities.

 

If the membership chose to put that £20m straight back into the club, even on a phased basis, then it would certainly give the club a financial boost, but at the cost of loss of ownership and control.

 

Alternatively, the club could issue new shares, as DAFC are doing. That would see the FOH holding (and it's value) diluted proportionately to the amount of new money invested.  There is an element of suck and see to the DAFC approach in giving up 30%  and control of the Board initially.  I don't know if the "option" to increase the investor's holding works both ways, i.e. if the Pars United CIC and Pars Trust could say no to the second tranche.   

 

So wealthy consortium buys FoH shareholding for £20m .... proceeds go into  FoH bank account....... constitution dictates that the proceeds  get transferred to Hearts bank account if majority of FoH members agree  ... and new owners suddenly have control of  their original £20m to play with ?

 

Am I missing something here ? 

Edited by Lone Striker
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2 hours ago, Normthebarman said:

To be fair, if you're going to punt a fan owned club, you could do worse than selling to Germans. The whole ethos of football clubs over there is community and Fan involvement. While they won't be fan owned, I don't think the new owners would take the club in a direction the fans weren't happy with. 

 

Regarding ourselves, I wouldn't automatically object but any new owners would need to give a 5 year guarantee to double  the annual funding currently received from FoH. That's on top of the initial share purchase of £5,000,000. Should the club fail to receive such funding, the shares are returned to FoH. 


You should ask the Bradford City fans what they make of their German owners 👀

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Couldn’t care a toss who owns them. Another club that voted to try and screw us. They won’t see a brass farthing from me. 

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Footballfirst
12 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

 

So wealthy consortium buys FoH shareholding for £20m .... proceeds go into  FoH bank account....... constitution dictates that the proceeds  get transferred to Hearts bank account if majority of FoH members agree  ... and new owners suddenly have control of  their original £20m to play with ?

 

Am I missing something here ? 

 

Effectively yes. I would expect that the FOH membership would want to attach conditions to such a sale, e.g. that each £1 reinvested in the club would be matched by the new "owner" in additional funds.

 

FOH should be looking for the market value for their shares, plus a commitment from the new owner to also invest in the club.

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“It was abundantly clear during our discussions that DAFC Fussball GmbH share the same beliefs, morals and ethics as ourselves."


After a season or two, we can probably look forward to East End Park being sold off for houses or a shopping centre then!

 

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16 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

Effectively yes. I would expect that the FOH membership would want to attach conditions to such a sale, e.g. that each £1 reinvested in the club would be matched by the new "owner" in additional funds.

 

FOH should be looking for the market value for their shares, plus a commitment from the new owner to also invest in the club.

Subject to articles 5.2 and 5.3, on the winding-up or dissolution of the Company, any assets or property that remains available to be distributed or paid to the Members (“net assets”) shall not be paid or distributed to such Members but shall be transferred to another body (charitable or otherwise) with objects similar to those of the Company, such body to be determined by the Members at or before the time of winding up or dissolution.

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10 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Dunfermline's Q&A on the planned investment.  It also shows that their financial position was precarious.

 

https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Open_Letter_and_full_Q&A_from_DAFC_Chairman_following_today’s_exciting_news&ID=12546

So they were heading rapidly towards Admin2  ........ and magically a German company with DAFC in their name appears.  Wonderful chemistry between the directors  breaks out, and the Scottish directors don;t seem alarmed that  the German directors have been talking to  several clubs in the past 2 years.  (Did any of the clubs say "yes" ?).      They've all agreed that if the German company up their shareholding in DAFC to 75% then they can also purchase the company which owns East End Park. 😲

 

So, that's all good then.

 

Last chance saloon for DAFC, methinks.    Serves them right.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

Tbh, I'd sell my granny if it meant us winning the league. 

 

If we won the league then went into liquidation a few years later I wouldn't be giving a ****, I'd die a happy man. 

Not a balanced or logical view but if it meant winning the league I couldn't care about being fan owned,  the future or pretty much anything Tbh. 

 

Ofc, we could burn out, win **** all and tossed away like a old juice can. 

 

 

 

 

Is that not a bit short-sighted, and unrealistic anyway ?   The fortunes of football clubs go up and down fairly quickly nowadays.   The euphoria of 5-1 seems a wee bit distant already.

 

  

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I'd be uncomfortable with the FOH relinquishing control to a foreign entity (as in outside of the club), I'd have no reservations letting an investor become chairman, or CEO or some sort of board role if they wanted to invest in the club but it would come with the understanding (and legal binding) that this is a fan owned club and will remain as such. Provided the FOH retain 51% and there is no way for an incoming investor to sneakily dilute our percentage I'd be fine.

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