Dunfermline ownership

[Footballfirst]

It seems that DAFC is looking to transfer from being fan owned to private ownership after new investment from Germany.

 

This is something that FoH will likely face at some point in the future. Whether such an approach is welcomed should be based on what is best for the future of the club. 

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/scottish-championship/1549294/dunfermline-chairman-ross-mcarthur-welcomes-new-german-investment-as-enormous-step-forward-for-pars

 

Dunfermline chairman Ross McArthur has welcomed the new German investment in the club as an “enormous step forward.”

The company, DAFC Fussball GmbH, have purchased 30% of the Pars’ enlarged share capital and have an option to buy a further 45.1%.

The new group is based in Hamburg and have been named as Thomas Meggle, Damir Keretic, Nick Teller and Dr Albrecht Gundermann. Three of them will join the Dunfermline board with immediate effect.

Pars chairman McArthur is delighted to usher in a new era at East End Park.

He said: “The involvement of DAFC Fussball GmbH as a shareholder, should now be transformative for the club.

“We believe that this change to our ownership structure will be an enormous step forward in the achievement of our goals, but crucially, our culture and community ethos will not be diluted.

“It was abundantly clear during our discussions that DAFC Fussball GmbH share the same beliefs, morals and ethics as ourselves.

“The DAFC board realised that not only did we require further capital but that we also would benefit from fresh ideas, knowledge, relationships and innovation to help us achieve our goals.

“The investors have a deep and sound knowledge of football and of commercial marketing, which means they bring very much more than fresh investment capital.

“The DAFC board was committed to working only with investors whose ideals were compatible with those of a club which is rooted in its community, who valued integrity and and who saw themselves as a catalyst for a range of positive engagements with the people of West Fife and beyond.

“The board believes that the good people behind DAFC Fussball GmbH have all of these qualities,” added McArthur.

“The investors will give us access to a scouting network in Germany and wider Europe, which will allow us to differentiate ourselves from other similar sized clubs in Scotland.

“As football people, they know that every football club has its ups and downs and that you need to take a patient, long-term approach to succeed.

“They understand the benefits of growing your own talent and selling on at the right time.

“Their investment will enable us to start planning properly our own youth academy structure and securing appropriate training facilities, things we have long wanted to do but which have always been out of our reach.

“In short, our expectation is that this cash investment will give Dunfermline Athletic the competitive advantage we have long sought and will allow us to take steps to achieve our long-term ambitions for the club, rather than managing the club on a season-by-season basis.”

[Mikey1874]

'Competitive advantage'

 

That Hearts fans boycott hopefully just one season then.

 

[Beast Boy]

So they own 75% of DAFC now? **** that.

 

Ill pin my colours to the mast straight away here. If a similar approach was made, my ballot would be firmly in the GTF pot.

[Norm]

To be fair, if you're going to punt a fan owned club, you could do worse than selling to Germans. The whole ethos of football clubs over there is community and Fan involvement. While they won't be fan owned, I don't think the new owners would take the club in a direction the fans weren't happy with. 

 

Regarding ourselves, I wouldn't automatically object but any new owners would need to give a 5 year guarantee to double  the annual funding currently received from FoH. That's on top of the initial share purchase of £5,000,000. Should the club fail to receive such funding, the shares are returned to FoH. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Normthebarman

[Guest ToqueJambo]

11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

It seems that DAFC is looking to transfer from being fan owned to private ownership after new investment from Germany.

 

This is something that FoH will likely face at some point in the future. Whether such an approach is welcomed should be based on what is best for the future of the club. 

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/scottish-championship/1549294/dunfermline-chairman-ross-mcarthur-welcomes-new-german-investment-as-enormous-step-forward-for-pars

 

 

 

 

"The investors have a deep and sound knowledge of football and of commercial marketing"

 

Their investment into Dunfermline suggests otherwise.

 

Football attracts charlatans, chancers, asset strippers, ego-maniacs and Walter Mitty characters. Investment into Hearts is great, so long as 51% stays with the fans. If anyone wants full control it means they want to protect their investment by having the ability to shut up shop and sell off assets if needed.

Edited September 1, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[manaliveits105]

Which hat is the Dunfermline chairman wearing and where did their ethics suddenly appear from ?

[Lone Striker]

Hmm... interesting.    Dunfermline eh - I wonder who approached who.    I hope McArthur realises it won't be him or his current directors who'll be deciding how to spend it, or who the debt will be owed to. 

 

As you say FF, we (FoH as majority shareholder soon) will quite possibly have to consider approaches from  the likes of HMFC Fussball Gmbh (or similar !!).      As usual though, the word "investment" means different things to different people.  Personally, I would be very wary of foreign groups offering "investment" to Hearts,  when we have 8k (plus)  fans and some welcome benefactors already providing significant investment every year for no financial payback other than good charitable activity and a decent team on the park.

 

As we've seen, it's quite easy to squander "investment" regardless of where it comes from.   

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Lone Striker

[Beast Boy]

The thing with Scottish Clubs outside of the OF is, you don’t want to be reliant on the whims of an owner who is not a supporter. What you need to do, is secure ownership for the support, and then look to get decent money coming in to the league, and ensure it’s dispersed more evenly. You also need to attract investment in your own club, but when you have the third largest support in the country and £1.5m+ rolling in each month, that is something you have scope to work on over time... and make sure you get the right deal.

 

The most important thing for us, is never ever being in a situation where someone can run up debts that threaten our status or existence.

[3fingersreid]

Hope they go tits up 

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Hope they go tits up 

Me too. Never used to feel that way.

[Mikey1874]

Up to £100,000 loss from Hearts fans boycotting. They have 2 home games. 

[Footballfirst]

I think that there is a debate to be had by FOH as to whether or not the sale of their shares in HMFC plc should ever be considered.

 

I fully understand any reluctance to ever sell the club, given the support and the sacrifices made by FOH and Hearts supporters in general over the last eight years.

 

My personal view is that FOH needs to be given the opportunity to own and help fund the club for a few years. My hope is that such a period would be highly successful.

 

However, if the club fails to deliver on the park over that period and one of the limiting factors is the amount of investment that FOH can attract, while other clubs (e.g. Hibs, Aberdeen, DAFC) seem to be progressing with external investment/ownership,  then perhaps it would be appropriate to consider alternative ownership models.

 

If an external investor could provide legally guaranteed and transformational funds in excess of what FOH can achieve, then it would be daft not to consider it.

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

Up to £100,000 loss from Hearts fans boycotting. They have 2 home games. 

Quite funny that their neighbours RR and they have now felt such a pinch... 😎

[indianajones]

There are more Huns in Dunfermline than pars fans. 

 

Hope the Germans bankrupt them. 

[Beast Boy]

5 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that there is a debate to be had by FOH as to whether or not the sale of their shares in HMFC plc should ever be considered.

 

I fully understand any reluctance to ever sell the club, given the support and the sacrifices made by FOH and Hearts supporters in general over the last eight years.

 

My personal view is that FOH needs to be given the opportunity to own and help fund the club for a few years. My hope is that such a period would be highly successful.

 

However, if the club fails to deliver on the park over that period and one of the limiting factors is the amount of investment that FOH can attract, while other clubs (e.g. Hibs, Aberdeen, DAFC) seem to be progressing with external investment/ownership,  then perhaps it would be appropriate to consider alternative ownership models.

 

If an external investor could provide legally guaranteed and transformational funds in excess of what FOH can achieve, then it would be daft not to consider it.

When has that ever happened at any non-OF Scottish club though?
 

I can list the times it’s been trumpeted thus but failed, but I can’t think of one example where it’s been a success. At least not to an extent to where we couldn’t achieve similar through FoH.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Beast Boy

[NANOJAMBO]

Seriously, foreign investment into a tin pot Scottish club that's the equivalent of Conference football ?

Why ?

 

[Zico]

Hope they get asset-stripped to ****. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Zico

[sac]

4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that there is a debate to be had by FOH as to whether or not the sale of their shares in HMFC plc should ever be considered.

 

I fully understand any reluctance to ever sell the club, given the support and the sacrifices made by FOH and Hearts supporters in general over the last eight years.

 

My personal view is that FOH needs to be given the opportunity to own and help fund the club for a few years. My hope is that such a period would be highly successful.

 

However, if the club fails to deliver on the park over that period and one of the limiting factors is the amount of investment that FOH can attract, while other clubs (e.g. Hibs, Aberdeen, DAFC) seem to be progressing with external investment/ownership,  then perhaps it would be appropriate to consider alternative ownership models.

 

If an external investor could provide legally guaranteed and transformational funds in excess of what FOH can achieve, then it would be daft not to consider it.

Would depend on who was buying & what we could have written in to the constitution prior to any sale that protects the long term future of the club?

[Footballfirst]

Just now, Beast Boy said:

When has that ever happened at any non-OF Scottish club though?
 

I can list the times it’s been trumpeted this but failed, but O can’t think of one example where it’s been a success. At least not to an extent to where we couldn’t achieve similar through FoH.

 

I agree, but if you look elsewhere in Europe, there are several examples of clubs that were previously treading water that have been transformed by new ownership and investment, e.g. Chelsea, Man City, PSG, Leipzig, Salzburg. 

[soonbe110]

37 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

So they own 75% of DAFC now? **** that.

 

Ill pin my colours to the mast straight away here. If a similar approach was made, my ballot would be firmly in the GTF pot.

Without knowing who they are and what they bring why would you just knock them back? 

[Pasquale for King]

I’m sure the Wigan fans thought the same in May, now players are raffling medals to help them stay alive. 

[davemclaren]

16 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that there is a debate to be had by FOH as to whether or not the sale of their shares in HMFC plc should ever be considered.

 

I fully understand any reluctance to ever sell the club, given the support and the sacrifices made by FOH and Hearts supporters in general over the last eight years.

 

My personal view is that FOH needs to be given the opportunity to own and help fund the club for a few years. My hope is that such a period would be highly successful.

 

However, if the club fails to deliver on the park over that period and one of the limiting factors is the amount of investment that FOH can attract, while other clubs (e.g. Hibs, Aberdeen, DAFC) seem to be progressing with external investment/ownership,  then perhaps it would be appropriate to consider alternative ownership models.

 

If an external investor could provide legally guaranteed and transformational funds in excess of what FOH can achieve, then it would be daft not to consider it.

Agree with you. 

[soonbe110]

12 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

When has that ever happened at any non-OF Scottish club though?
 

I can list the times it’s been trumpeted thus but failed, but I can’t think of one example where it’s been a success. At least not to an extent to where we couldn’t achieve similar through FoH.

 

 

Fergus McCan for one, Stuart Milne for two, Dick Donald for three, David Murray is four, Eddie Thompson rounds it to five and that’s just straight off the top of my head. 

[3fingersreid]

13 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

Me too. Never used to feel that way.

I’m the same , my first away game was at dunfermline ,midweek , around 1971/72 , their stadium was huge ( at least felt that way to a wee boy) under the floodlights it just was special . Up till their vote I always had a soft spot for them ( and raith rovers) but they can go have intercourse with themselves now .

[martoon]

9 minutes ago, Zico said:

Hope they get asset-stripped to ****. 

 

Slim pickings. 

 

I suppose the land EEP sits on might be worth something but, with all due respect to the town, which I like, it's hardly prime real estate. 

 

Not even sure if DAFC even own it. 

 

German, or otherwise, they won't be seeing any of my dough. Shame, as EEP, Starks and Hampden have been my only away days since around the turn of the Millennium. 

 

Every penny to Hearts now. 

[stuart500]

Hunfermline. 

[Lone Striker]

24 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

To be fair, if you're going to punt a fan owned club, you could do worse than selling to Germans. The whole ethos of football clubs over there is community and Fan involvement. While they won't be fan owned, I don't think the new owners would take the club in a direction the fans weren't happy with. 

 

Regarding ourselves, I wouldn't automatically object but any new owners would need to give a 5 year guarantee to double  the annual funding currently received from FoH. That's on top of the initial share purchase of £5,000,000. Should the club fail to receive such funding, the shares are returned to FoH. 

You've raised a fair point there Norm.    Logically it makes sense - but I'm not sure if your example could ever be put into a legally binding contract though.      So long as the fans continue to pledge financial support in astonishing numbers, best to avoid the situation altogether imo.

[manaliveits105]

Hunfermline Pathetic 

[Beast Boy]

7 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Fergus McCan for one, Stuart Milne for two, Dick Donald for three, David Murray is four, Eddie Thompson rounds it to five and that’s just straight off the top of my head. 

Non-OF, aye? 🤷‍♂️
 

Milne and Thompson are the only two who fit the criteria and neither did anything that wouldn’t be achievable through FoH, and I seriously doubt either put in anything like £1.5m p/a.

[Bazzas right boot]

The big difference will be that if there is a next time for something as big as a takeover we won't be desperate. 

 

In the past we've been crippled with debt and a older stadium and had to sell to almost any willing buyer. 

 

IMO, anyone investing in a random Scottish club atm are just vultures striking while the clubs are like injured game out on the plains. 

 

Hopefully, if anything we'll be financially and structurally secure in the future so if we do have a willing buyer and/or invester we only need to entertain them unless beneficial for us. 

Some clubs may not be as lucky. 

[Beast Boy]

13 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Without knowing who they are and what they bring why would you just knock them back? 

Because handing over 75% of your football club to someone who isn’t a supporter is a ridiculous idea.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

The big difference will be that if there is a next time for something as big as a takeover we won't be desperate. 

 

In the past we've been crippled with debt and a older stadium and had to sell to almost any willing buyer. 

 

IMO, anyone investing in a random Scottish club atm are just vultures striking while the clubs are like injured game out on the plains. 

 

Hopefully, if anything we'll be financially and structurally secure in the future so if we do have a willing buyer and/or invester we only need to entertain them unless beneficial for us. 

Some clubs may not be as lucky. 

Correct. If we continue with similar fan contribution levels in the future it will take an exceptional offer to be worth consideration. 

[Heartsofgold]

Here's a thing.  If someone did purchase the clubs shareholding form FoH in the future, what happens to the funds paid?  How would it be distributed through the contributors to the Foundation, if at all?

[Hungry hippo]

2 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

Because handing over 75% of your football club to someone who isn’t a supporter is a ridiculous idea.

 

I'd describe it as a gamble rather than ridiculous.

[Beast Boy]

11 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

I’m the same , my first away game was at dunfermline ,midweek , around 1971/72 , their stadium was huge ( at least felt that way to a wee boy) under the floodlights it just was special . Up till their vote I always had a soft spot for them ( and raith rovers) but they can go have intercourse with themselves now .

They were a decent sized Scottish Club. Years outside the Shrunken top flight has seen them regress terribly. That utter ***** mate of David Murray at HBoS didn’t help either mind.

[Heartsofgold]

Just now, Hungry hippo said:

 

I'd describe it as a gamble rather than ridiculous.

Too big a gamble for us, as fans, to EVER take again in my opinion.

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Hungry hippo said:

 

I'd describe it as a gamble rather than ridiculous.

Gambling with the future of your football club IS ridiculous.

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Heartsofgold said:

Here's a thing.  If someone did purchase the clubs shareholding form FoH in the future, what happens to the funds paid?  How would it be distributed through the contributors to the Foundation, if at all?

There’s no mechanism to pass on any monies to Contributors. 

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Heartsofgold said:

Too big a gamble for us, as fans, to EVER take again in my opinion.

We only did it last time because we were ****ed. There was no choice.

[Heartsofgold]

Just now, davemclaren said:

There’s no mechanism to pass on any monies to Contributors. 

So therefore what happens to the money?  It cannot remain with the foundation if there is not reason.  Imagine if some rish punter spent £10 million on the clubs shares, where does that go?

[Heartsofgold]

1 minute ago, Beast Boy said:

We only did it last time because we were ****ed. There was no choice.

But we are not now so we should NEVER entertain a bit for more than 49.9% of the issued shares of the club again.

[Guest]

I wonder what the attraction is with them? Do the investors see something no-one else does?

 

Uncle Vlad wanted to buy them too

[Jambo61]

34 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I think that there is a debate to be had by FOH as to whether or not the sale of their shares in HMFC plc should ever be considered.

 

I fully understand any reluctance to ever sell the club, given the support and the sacrifices made by FOH and Hearts supporters in general over the last eight years.

 

My personal view is that FOH needs to be given the opportunity to own and help fund the club for a few years. My hope is that such a period would be highly successful.

 

However, if the club fails to deliver on the park over that period and one of the limiting factors is the amount of investment that FOH can attract, while other clubs (e.g. Hibs, Aberdeen, DAFC) seem to be progressing with external investment/ownership,  then perhaps it would be appropriate to consider alternative ownership models.

 

If an external investor could provide legally guaranteed and transformational funds in excess of what FOH can achieve, then it would be daft not to consider it.

You only need look at Blackburn and how quickly Jack Walkers wishes were overturned!

 

Football is a money business, if we find ourselves short we will have no real option!

[Ribble]

Looks like this has been on the table for a while, DAFC Fussball GmbH was setup back in March.

 

Seems a strange selection of people named as being behind it, ex-st pauli player, ex-tennis player and manager, a banker and someone from the shipping industry.

[Jambo61]

1 minute ago, Heartsofgold said:

So therefore what happens to the money?  It cannot remain with the foundation if there is not reason.  Imagine if some rish punter spent £10 million on the clubs shares, where does that go?

Charity I think?

[Beast Boy]

28 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

I agree, but if you look elsewhere in Europe, there are several examples of clubs that were previously treading water that have been transformed by new ownership and investment, e.g. Chelsea, Man City, PSG, Leipzig, Salzburg. 

They operated out of leagues that allowed it to be possible though. The sort of money needed to do it here would be outwith what we could raise to bail us out if it failed. 

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

We only did it last time because we were ****ed. There was no choice.

We were led by supporters for over 100 years with very mixed outcomes which led to us being taken over by Mercer ( non supporter ) then Robinson/Deans ( supporters ) then Romanov and finally Ann/Foh. All of these were due to pressing financial issues, except Mercer who just wanted out with some cash 

[Heartsofgold]

1 minute ago, Jambo61 said:

Charity I think?

As was mentioned there is NO mechanism to get the moeny out of the Foundation to ANYWHERE if the shares are sold.  The proceeds are assets of the Foundation but where would the ultimate destination of those assets be??

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

But we are not now so we should NEVER entertain a bit for more than 49.9% of the issued shares of the club again.

Even then there are pitfalls. We would need to own the other 50.1% and we would need to be sure that the fans/FoH were bright enough to spot a ***** when he scuttled up with claims of this that and the other.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

I’m not really sure I can foresee any realistic scenario where I could support FOH relinquishing control. Sounds like Dunfermline have found a way to see themselves through this season at the price of relinquishing supporter ownership. Sounds very similar to the Vlad model of buying a platform for players that can then be sold.