Right player, wrong time

[jamboinglasgow]

Mentioned on the other thread with Meshino that he is a player that could have been a good player for us but was at the wrong time with bad management and a team in freefall.

 

It made me wonder, is there any players we have had whose failed to make an impact or badly unperformed that if they had been under a better Hearts manager, a performing team or even better suited for example to football now than 20 years ago?

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Probably wrong league for the kid, scottish fitbaw is a different ball game from any other 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Ma Roon

[Beast Boy]

Björn Johnson

Isma Goncalves

Rais M’boli

 

For varying reasons jump to mind.

[Allowayjambo1874]

1 minute ago, Ma Roon said:

Probably wrong league for the kid, scottish fitbaw is a different ball game from any other 

 

This I am afraid. Bags of skill but from a Scottish game perspective far too weak.

[Jamboinparis]

Mauricio Pinilla instantly comes to mind. Imagine having him when things were normal.
 

[Cruyff]

Thought he was too lightweight tbh but tbf on him, I don't think the style of football or having shoddy team mates did him any wonders either. 

Defo got ability and may do well in Portugal surrounded by more technical players. 

[Beast Boy]

Just now, Allowayjambo1874 said:

 

This I am afraid. Bags of skill but from a Scottish game perspective far too weak.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we changed Scottish football, rather than rejecting good players? 

[Beast Boy]

Alexandros Tsziolis

Tasos Avlonitis

Perry Kitchen

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Beast Boy

[Beast Boy]

Dauda 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Beast Boy

[The Internet]

Washington and Clare. Quite a few of last season's team tbh. 

[SectionDJambo]

7 minutes ago, Jamboinparis said:

Mauricio Pinilla instantly comes to mind. Imagine having him when things were normal.
 

Imagine having him when he was normal.

It was said he had some issues.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

Washington and Clare. Quite a few of last season's team tbh. 

Great couple of shouts.

[Beast Boy]

Arvidas Novikovas

[jamboinglasgow]

One which I feel may be controversal is Christian Nade.

 

He came to us when we were a complete Sh*tshow, fans made up their mind and he got no real coaching. I think had he come to us when we were stable and with a decent coach who could work with him he could have been a good striker for us rather than one who (unfairly) become a joke in Scottish football and occasionally showed flashes of talent.

[Allowayjambo1874]

Just now, Beast Boy said:

Wouldn’t it be nice if we changed Scottish football, rather than rejecting good players? 

Yes and it may bring more success at club and country level on a European stage but there is a flip side. Our game is unique and that is why so many prefer it to the sterile, cash obsessed and at times obnoxious EPL.

 

That's a whole different discussion, the bottom line is that Meshino was unprepared for the physicality of the Scottish game and unless he suddenly  changed and became much more robust the best we were ever going to get were odd flashes of brilliance.  (in my humble opinion)

[Beast Boy]

Joel Pereira before the hoof transplants.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

One which I feel may be controversal is Christian Nade.

 

He came to us when we were a complete Sh*tshow, fans made up their mind and he got no real coaching. I think had he come to us when we were stable and with a decent coach who could work with him he could have been a good striker for us rather than one who (unfairly) become a joke in Scottish football and occasionally showed flashes of talent.

Agree completely. Nade would have been a very good player for us with the right environment.

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Allowayjambo1874 said:

Yes and it may bring more success at club and country level on a European stage but there is a flip side. Our game is unique and that is why so many prefer it to the sterile, cash obsessed and at times obnoxious EPL.

 

That's a whole different discussion, the bottom line is that Meshino was unprepared for the physicality of the Scottish game and unless he suddenly  changed and became much more robust the best we were ever going to get were odd flashes of brilliance.  (in my humble opinion)

I think it’s okay to have the discussion on this thread. It’s totally relevant. I’d much rather we embraced skill and ability rather than thuggish hoofball. The amount of good and entertaining players that we could have had playing here, but they couldn’t adapt to our abysmally shite style of football depresses the living **** out of me.

[Beast Boy]

Good thread this actually...

 

Ken what? Many of the players being discussed here would have been a success at Rangers and Celtic. They are the only two clubs who are allowed to have two particular types of players:

 

1) Players who are strong in the tackle and put themselves about a bit, but don’t set out to injure anyone.

 

2) Skilful players who need protection from the officials Instead of getting booked for being kicked ten foot in the air.

 

We’ve had a few of the above types over the years and most of the time officials go out of their way to book them.

 

The OF have these players every season and they are given a free pass.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Beast Boy

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

35 minutes ago, Ma Roon said:

Probably wrong league for the kid, scottish fitbaw is a different ball game from any other 

I would say so. Culture shock for him 

[jambonian]

A lot of the players we've had in the last few years are International players at various levels. They can't have been poor players with recognition from their countries. They came to Hearts and the way they were coached nullified their talent or potential. But instead of talking about that and going over old ground again, some of them would've been decent at other clubs.

Going further back, it doesn't matter where you come from, I look at some of Jeffries' foreigners like Bruno, Salvatori, Flogel, Rousset and Adam and it shows that if you're in the right environment, Scottish football isn't as bad as it's portrayed sometimes. These guys all settled well at the club, can't say the same for a lot of the more recent ones. As far as i'm concerned, if you're happy with your training regime, your team-mates, the football style, your lifestyle, you'll play with confidence and fight for the club.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by jambonian

[Fort Vallance]

36 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Imagine having him when he was normal.

It was said he had some issues.

In normal circumstances he wouldn't have been anywhere near us unfortunately.

[Beast Boy]

9 minutes ago, jambonian said:

A lot of the players we've had in the last few years are International players at various levels. They can't have been poor players with recognition from their countries. They came to Hearts and the way they were coached nullified their talent or potential. But instead of talking about that and going over old ground again, some of them would've been decent at other clubs.

Going further back, it doesn't matter where you come from, I look at some of Jeffries' foreigners like Bruno, Salvatori, Flogel, Rousset and Adam and it shows that if you're in the right environment, Scottish football isn't as bad as it's portrayed sometimes. These guys all settled well at the club, can't say the same for a lot of the more recent ones. As far as i'm concerned, if you're happy with your training regime, your team-mates, the football style, your lifestyle, you'll play with confidence and fight for the club.

 

Good post. I agree wholeheartedly, but caveat this too. Other factors that led to us being shite despite having good players are:

 

1) Scottish Football being utterly utterly shite. A backwater where only two clubs are allowed good players, and everyone else’s good players are punished.

 

2) The JJ signed players you mention are now well out of our reach. Those were players appointed in the early days of SKY, Bosman and the existence of agents. JJ did well in that environment. Nowadays we would be nowhere near the equivalent of Salvatori.

 

 

[jambonian]

Just now, Beast Boy said:

Good post. I agree wholeheartedly, but caveat this too. Other factors that led to us being shite despite having good players are:

 

1) Scottish Football being utterly utterly shite. A backwater where only two clubs are allowed good players, and everyone else’s good players are punished.

 

2) The JJ signed players you mention are now well out of our reach. Those were players appointed in the early days of SKY, Bosman and the existence of agents. JJ did well in that environment. Nowadays we would be nowhere near the equivalent of Salvatori.

 

 

 

I don't disagree regarding point one,  it seems even tougher now than before to be competitive. And leading in to point two...Sky Sports has ruined football forever. Said that years ago. Also said that players wages should've been capped at the maximum of £50k a week for the very top dogs or it will end up leading to players getting money thrown at them. This was about 20 years ago and look where we are now? We can't even get a run in Europe now because of too many qualifiers. I haven't watched any european football now in over 15 years (unless Hearts are involved), I have no interest in it. It's fake football for fake fans who suddenly support Man City  having never stood anywhere near their stadium. (Using them as an example) Finally on point two, if you have the right contacts then there are dozens and dozens of Thomas Flogels and Stephane Adams out there but you have to search fr it. Why Hearts don't take advantage of their ex-players who love the club I don't know. Nothing wrong with asking the likes of Adam, Fyssas, Flogel or whoever if they know or could recommend a couple of gems that's worth taking a look at. Maybe they do but I somehow, doubt it.

[Leveins Battalion]

Martin Petras.

[Debut 4]

Milinkovic.  

 

Not that I think he necessarily underperformed but he was underused. 
 

He’s the type of player becoming more and more a rarity in a maroon jersey.  Clearly a clever footballer. He’d be left in the team week in week out under someone like JJ or Burley, allowing for quiet games but being able to bounce back the next week and produce match winning moments we’ve lacked hugely.  
 

Under Levein it was chop and change. Play a quiet game and you were out the next. 
 

 

 

[Beast Boy]

6 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

I don't disagree regarding point one,  it seems even tougher now than before to be competitive. And leading in to point two...Sky Sports has ruined football forever. Said that years ago. Also said that players wages should've been capped at the maximum of £50k a week for the very top dogs or it will end up leading to players getting money thrown at them. This was about 20 years ago and look where we are now? We can't even get a run in Europe now because of too many qualifiers. I haven't watched any european football now in over 15 years (unless Hearts are involved), I have no interest in it. It's fake football for fake fans who suddenly support Man City  having never stood anywhere near their stadium. (Using them as an example) Finally on point two, if you have the right contacts then there are dozens and dozens of Thomas Flogels and Stephane Adams out there but you have to search fr it. Why Hearts don't take advantage of their ex-players who love the club I don't know. Nothing wrong with asking the likes of Adam, Fyssas, Flogel or whoever if they know or could recommend a couple of gems that's worth taking a look at. Maybe they do but I somehow, doubt it.

Most of this post could be straight from my own mind, except the last bit. Agree wholeheartedly otherwise.
 

The guys you mention: Adam, Fyssas and Flogel would have either been outwith our reach, or would have been expensive flops at modern day HMFC. The main reason being that nowadays, there would be far too great a gap between what we could offer them financially and what they could get elsewhere. 
 

Adam: Early days of Bosman and agents. Similar to Salvatori and Rousset, we wouldn’t even be on his list of options nowadays, as every player on the planet is known about and documented by the football machine.

 

Fyssas: Purely down to cash. We couldn’t get near the sort of wages that would attract a European Championship winner nowadays. Not even close.

Flogel: Debatable as to whether or not we could sign an Austrian international approaching his prime, but I suspect not. I also think that his slow start would have seen him written off by the many cynical simpletons in our support.

 

 

[jambonian]

Just now, Beast Boy said:

Most of this post could be straight from my own mind, except the last bit. Agree wholeheartedly otherwise.
 

The guys you mention: Adam, Fyssas and Flogel would have either been outwith our reach, or would have been expensive flops at modern day HMFC. The main reason being that nowadays, there would be far too great a gap between what we could offer them financially and what they could get elsewhere. 
 

Adam: Early days of Bosman and agents. Similar to Salvatori and Rousset, we wouldn’t even be on his list of options nowadays, as every player on the planet is known about and documented by the football machine.

 

Fyssas: Purely down to cash. We couldn’t get near the sort of wages that would attract a European Championship winner nowadays. Not even close.

Flogel: Debatable as to whether or not we could sign an Austrian international approaching his prime, but I suspect not. I also think that his slow start would have seen him written off by the many cynical simpletons in our support.

 

 

Yes, Flogel took a bit of time to settle. Was supposed to sign for Dundee Utd but ended up at Hearts. Even if we couldn't afford these types of players nowadays, the point was that there's no harm in asking them (and others) if there are any players they are aware of that might be able to fit into Hearts at the moment. Hopefully once we're back in the Premier we can start to look at better quality than some of those seen in Hearts jerseys these last few years now that Levein is away. Having JJ in helping out for the next few months could work to our benefit as these players (Fyssas aside obviously) and others loved working under his management and could quite easily sell the club to a potential target. A player that perhaps wouldn't even think (or even know) of Hearts and scoff at any chance of playing for us as a complete non-starter.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

2 hours ago, Jamboinparis said:

Mauricio Pinilla instantly comes to mind. Imagine having him when things were normal.
 

Probably the most talented player we never had. 

[Beast Boy]

7 minutes ago, jambonian said:

the point was that there's no harm in asking them (and others) if there are any players they are aware of that might be able to fit into Hearts at the moment. Hopefully once we're back in the Premier we can start to look at better quality than some of those seen in Hearts jerseys these last few years now that Levein is away. Having JJ in helping out for the next few months could work to our benefit as these players (Fyssas aside obviously)

Thing is, we’ve done that over the years and it’s not exactly yielded cast iron guarantees:

 

Fabien Leclercq

Tepi Moilenen

The other Gowser (and all the other Aussies from that generation, except Ryan)

El Hassnoui

Alim Öztürk 

Jake Mulraney

 

... are a few straight off the top of my head.

 

 

[jbee647]

Players sometimes only as good as the players around them

put Messi and Ronaldo at Albion Rovers and they would be nowhere near as good as they are.

Teddy Sheringham at Colchester and Paul Merton at Walsall both said they were absolutely useless at a lower level, alibi they were at the tail end of there career, but the matter still stands

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by jbee647

[William H. Bonney]

Lee Miller.

I don’t think we could afford him but what an impact he made in a short space of time. 
 

[Anything2]

2 hours ago, Jamboinparis said:

Mauricio Pinilla instantly comes to mind. Imagine having him when things were normal.
 

First one I thought of as well. Would have been great to have had him earlier with Bednar and before Jankauskas's legs/interest went. 

[Beast Boy]

8 minutes ago, Furious Styles said:

Lee Miller.

I don’t think we could afford him but what an impact he made in a short space of time. 
 

Was disappointed to see him go, but when Romanov stated that “we are looking to bring in much better than Lee Miller“, I was both excited and a little apprehensive. Point being we couldn’t afford the replacements... as much as I enjoyed watching them tear the opposition apart.

[Samuel Camazzola]

35 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

Players sometimes only as good as the players around them

put Messi and Ronaldo at Albion Rovers and they would be nowhere near as good as they are.

Teddy Sheringham at Colchester and Paul Merton at Walsall both said they were absolutely useless at a lower level, alibi they were at the tail end of there career, but the matter still stands

 

 

TBF, Walsall's midfield was quite a departure from Have I Got News For You. 

[Rods]

Martin Petras for me regular for Slovakia never got a chance for some bizzare reason.

[WageThief]

39 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

Adam: Early days of Bosman and agents. Similar to Salvatori and Rousset, we wouldn’t even be on his list of options nowadays, as every player on the planet is known about and documented by the football machine.

 

Yip and Scottish football has got worse/poor in relation to almost everywhere else.  Adam left Metz who'd finished 5th in the French top division and had won a league cup the year before.  Guys who were relative failures like Guerin and Paille are quite famous in France.  

 

We signed Rousset three years after he was backup at Euro92 with France.  The same squad has Cantona, Deschamps, Petit, and (whisper it) Sauzee.  

[tian447]

2 hours ago, Beast Boy said:

Good thread this actually...

 

Ken what? Many of the players being discussed here would have been a success at Rangers and Celtic. They are the only two clubs who are allowed to have two particular types of players:

 

1) Players who are strong in the tackle and put themselves about a bit, but don’t set out to injure anyone.

 

 

 

You can file Joaquim Adao under that one.

 

Clearly had skill, and was a big physical ******* as well.  But he played for Hearts, so every proper tackle was basically a yellow card.  

 

He got 6 in 11 games, but never actually fouled anyone enough to make you think "yeah, that's a fair yellow".  He even got booked early doors against Celtic, and Levein had to take him off - not because he was playing badly, but because we could all see what was going to happen.  Brown, as usual, was allowed complete freedom to batter everyone and anyone.

[The Internet]

I ****ing loved Adao. Really wish we could've kept him. 

[Gershwin]

7 minutes ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

I ****ing loved Adao. Really wish we could've kept him. 

I thought he was awful. Had one decent game against Partick but he was either giving the ball away and hacking someone down. 

[wheatfield to sheffield]

Derek Ferguson

[Special Agent Dale Cooper]

3 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

Mentioned on the other thread with Meshino that he is a player that could have been a good player for us but was at the wrong time with bad management and a team in freefall.

 

It made me wonder, is there any players we have had whose failed to make an impact or badly unperformed that if they had been under a better Hearts manager, a performing team or even better suited for example to football now than 20 years ago?

 

Glenn Whelan, Alex Tziolis, Bjorn Johnsen.

 

[OTT]

Wrong league. Meshino was too slight for the physical nature of this league. Bloody shame, because the talent and application were there. 

 

Wouldn't hesitate about having a look into the Japanese market again though. It seems on a par with our league, just with the added bonus of having superstar players like Iniesta in it. We're not going to get the next Messi, but it seems commercially a smart market to get involved in, and there will be players there that savour the more physical element of football that we could probably get. 

 

Perhaps once normality resumes we could look to getting a japanese team across for the youth tournaments MacPhee was organising. We seemed to be attracting big clubs (City and Juve plus others) so to bulk out the numbers a Japanese team would be a good idea IMO. Might open up a future link up too. The professionalism of their players really can't be understated enough. Having them over to try and impart that onto our youngsters could be invaluable. 

[andythejambo]

1 hour ago, Furious Styles said:

Lee Miller.

I don’t think we could afford him but what an impact he made in a short space of time. 
 

We could have afforded Miller, but each time we went back to Bristol City, they bumped the price up, having earlier stated the fee they were looking for. In the end, both Hearts and Dundee Utd submitted bids, but when Vlad heard he was talking to Aberdeen, he pulled the plug.

 

 

[The White Cockade]

Wrong player wrong time 

Crawford Boyd 

Apparently we signed the wrong centre half 🙈

[Auld Reekin']

8 minutes ago, The White Cockade said:

Wrong player wrong time 

Crawford Boyd 

Apparently we signed the wrong centre half 🙈

 

In the same vein, the guy (whoever he was) that we allegedly meant to sign rather than Husref Musemic...   

[cb1874]

56 minutes ago, Special Agent Dale Cooper said:

 

Glenn Whelan, Alex Tziolis, Bjorn Johnsen.

 

Good shout on all 3 there.

 

[kila]

I think he experienced a cultural shock, but that was the point in his loan to us from Man City's point of view I guess.

 

 

 

[BervieJambo]

Lee Johnson & Chris Halkett - both clearly decent players but neither got the opportunity to really show what they could do.

[Glottis]

Genuinely,

 

Barasa.

 

No, seriously.

 

He was thrust into the team when Lithuanian hate was at an all time high.

He was chucked in for Neilson which reminded fans of Petras being chosen by Vlad at Tannadice.

 

Barasa looked decent on the ball, wanted to go forward although was maybe trying too hard to impress.