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Just now, Dawnrazor said:

I did an iduction course to get a pass to work at Roseisle Distillery for a contract job, the videos of dust explosions were a reall eye opener, I had no idea about it before, they were, quite rightly, paranoid about them.

Done a fair few process safety courses myself and the dust case studies come up. Strangely, there's always a 'small' explosion/flash fire first. What that does is lift the dust thats hiding on top of pipes, air conditioning ducts, etc and mixes it with the air. Its always this second detonation that does the damage, rather than the first. 

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Jambo-Jimbo
2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Aye I'd love to see the port authority risk assessment for that lot. 

Someone's arse will be twitching like a rabbit's nose. 

 

That's maybe why the Lebanese Prime Minister is saying those officials who are responsible will be held to account.

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Just now, trotter said:

Done a fair few process safety courses myself and the dust case studies come up. Strangely, there's always a 'small' explosion/flash fire first. What that does is lift the dust thats hiding on top of pipes, air conditioning ducts, etc and mixes it with the air. Its always this second detonation that does the damage, rather than the first. 

Correct, it was the high starch content of Barley dust in distilleries that's particularly dangerous. 

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Mythbusters really got into the dangers of dust explosions/fires.

Turns out that powdered milk when mixed with air then ignited makes a giant fireball.

Flourmills have always historically been serious fire risks.

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2 minutes ago, Cade said:

Mythbusters really got into the dangers of dust explosions/fires.

Turns out that powdered milk when mixed with air then ignited makes a giant fireball.

Flourmills have always historically been serious fire risks.

We used to do it on a tiny scale in chemistry at high school. Put a tealight and a small mound of flour inside a thick walled measuring cylinder, then use a straw to blow the flour into the air. 

 

Don't think you can do that anymore....

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11 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Correct, it was the high starch content of Barley dust in distilleries that's particularly dangerous. 

It’s why mills used to go up fairly regularly. I came up with a comedy explosion gag for a theatre show a number of years ago that was fully risk assessed with the fire department and people from the pyrotechnics industry. It was meant to be someone lighting a gas fire which then exploded in their face. Dead simple, he lights a lighter, at the same time compressed air went into a small balloon which sat in a tray covered in a spoonful of plaster bursting the balloon, lights offstage flashed for the explosion along with a sound effect and then as the stage lights came back up the plaster was like smoke hanging in the air. Everything was explained in detail to the stage manager that set it up to make it safe. Until the night someone else set it up and substituted talc as they couldn’t find the plaster. Looked great by all accounts, though the two actors with very little eyebrow left and bright red Skin on their faces for a few days may have disagreed. And that was only a teaspoon of talc and a lighter with a bit of air added to the equation. 

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The Mighty Thor
2 minutes ago, Barack said:

In fairness to @Cruyff the conditions for that explosion were seemingly right(wrong) for the appearance of a thermobaric weapon blast.

 

Perfect mix of combustible particles. 

 

 

 

 

To be fair most ports would have grain silos, LPG, fuel oil and chemicals in a relatively close proximity. A fireworks factory though?

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3 minutes ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

I'd never heard the word thermobaric before this thread. Every day a school day on here. 

To be pedantic, if it does turn out to be AN or an other oxygen-rich explosive, its not technically thermobaric. Although for some explosive types the end result is near identical. 

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29 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

That's maybe why the Lebanese Prime Minister is saying those officials who are responsible will be held to account.

 

Would he not know about such large quantities of hazardous chemicals sitting in his capital? He must take some blame too

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The Mighty Thor
10 minutes ago, Barack said:

Still a bit sceptical that was all that was there, given my earlier posts on the usage of Iranian "deliveries" to that port. Definitely there was footage of what appeared to be fireworks explosions prior, yeah.

 

On that...mix ammonium nitrate with nitric acid. Anyone tell me what that gives you...?

Sadly that part of the world has been a gateway for shipping of goods unlikely to make the ships manifest. 

 

Poor buggers. 

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The picture seems to be that the Ammonium Nitrate was confiscated years ago and has been sitting in a dockside warehouse all this time.

Safety warnings were issued as early as 2014 but seemingly nothing was done.

 

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Jambo-Jimbo
25 minutes ago, Gone said:

 

Would he not know about such large quantities of hazardous chemicals sitting in his capital? He must take some blame too

 

It makes no difference whether he knew or not, he won't be the one facing years in jail, that's what subordinates are for, to take the rap.

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Lone Striker

Elf'n'Safety probably isn't high on the priority list for some governments in that part of the world.  There may also be a "dirty" trade in receiving/storing other countries'  dangerous waste for large sums of money - no documents, no questions asked.     Eye-opening video of the shock wave from it.    Tragic for the inhabitants of Beirut, and it's likely to have a knock-on effect by having the port out of operation for a while.  

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The White Cockade
46 minutes ago, His name is said:

Trump says bomb

 

 

That almost guarantees it wasn’t a bomb to be honest

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4 hours ago, Barack said:

It's a staggering amount just sitting there in that proximity.

 

For reference and scale; Timothy McVeigh the Oklahoma bomber, used 2 tons of ammonium nitrate.

 

Give you another comparison. Some of the largest IRA car bombs weighed around 500 lbs or so and that was enough to cause devastation within a hundred yards in every direction.

This was 12,320 times more explosives.

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9 hours ago, Cade said:

Some of those videos are equal part terrifying and fascinating.

 

The shockwave was brutal and shows the power of gunpowder explosions, which are slower than weapons explosives but provide more of a "push" force than "blast"

 

The shockwave from a blast like that would be absolutely devastating. Picture an almost unimaginably massive vibration passing through bodies. The body doesn't need to be touched by either debris or flame. That vibration will shred arteries and organs.

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The Halifax harbour disaster in 1917 was of a similar size.

That was 200 tons of TNT and 2,300 tons of Picric Acid which combined for a total explosive force of 2.9 kilotons.

 

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The Internet

Can't get my head around the power of an explosion like this. How the **** did they have this stuff just lying around in a city ffs. I mean it reminds me of a volcanic eruption which is just ludicrous. 

 

 

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Harry Potter
10 hours ago, Cade said:

Mythbusters really got into the dangers of dust explosions/fires.

Turns out that powdered milk when mixed with air then ignited makes a giant fireball.

Flourmills have always historically been serious fire risks.

Before i worked down in rank hovis flour mill there was an explosion in

one of the flour holding bins, bin was empty but flour dust ignited by a faulty conveyor

at the bottom(spark) it blew the bin cover in to the car park, lucky no one was injured.

News saying over 100 dead, thoughts with the families, terrible event.

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Lebanon imports 80% of its grain.

85% of the nation's grain was stored in these silos.
5322.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=forma5472.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=forma

 

Lebanon's currency has plummeted 80% this year, general inflation is running at 50%, food inflation is much, much higher with supermarket prices tripling, 30% unemployment, government defaulted on international loans, 5million population but 1.5million Syrian refugees currently inside the borders.

 

Lebanon is a fag paper thickness away from complete economic and political collapse.

 

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WoolfordsHearts
12 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Aye, but it's a thermobaric bird.

🤣At last,someone with real bomb knowledge on here.

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A bomb is possible, but there were multiple fires and things "going off" that looked like fireworks in the smoke clouds.  I'm going to put a link to some videos in a Spoiler below - they are all streamable.com links that offer quite a few angles of the explosion.  None of them show anything particularly NSFW, but I can understand why some people might prefer not to know.

 

 

The explosion is mental.  Huge cloud, huge shockwave.  In Angle #8 in particular, you can see the way that buildings just disintegrate.   If it were a missile, not only would it have had to be a massive payload, there would have been something detected on RADAR, which hasn't been reported.  

 

It could just be sheer negligence, and a series of catastrophic failures.  I doubt we'll ever know, but it's tragic for the people of Beirut.

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Port authority say it started as a fire in Warehouse #9 then spread to Warehouse #12 which is where the Ammonium Nitrate was being stored.

 

The Ammonium Nitrate came off the Rhosus, a Russian-flagged ship in 2014.

The ship was en route from Georgia to Mozambique but was impounded in Beirut due to either a failure to pay port fees or because the ship was not seaworthy (reports differ on this).

The ship was stuck in Beirut and the crew stuck on the ship itself due to the port authorities not wanting them to disappear and leave the ship with its dangerous cargo unattended.

The crew were not being paid because the owner of the ship never came up with the cash to settle the dispute. 

The owner simply refused to reply to all contact.

After about a year the crew were allowed to leave the ship and the cargo was impounded.

Then six years of wrangling over what to do with the cargo.

Then it blew up.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Cade said:

Lebanon imports 80% of its grain.

85% of the nation's grain was stored in these silos.
5322.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=forma5472.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=forma

 

Lebanon's currency has plummeted 80% this year, general inflation is running at 50%, food inflation is much, much higher with supermarket prices tripling, 30% unemployment, government defaulted on international loans, 5million population but 1.5million Syrian refugees currently inside the borders.

 

Lebanon is a fag paper thickness away from complete economic and political collapse.

 

Pretty easy to see where the storage building was located in the shot to the left. 

 

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highlandjambo3

Just thought I’d chuck in my tuppence worth just for your information.

 

I spent a lot of time in the Army blowing stuff up (demolition safety officer or explosives engineer for want of a better word).


Its been reported that this explosion was ammonium nitrate based, which is commonly used in fertiliser at industrial level in the agricultural world.  The IRA used to make bombs from this stuff called ANFO (ammonium nitrate mixed with fuel & oil) that’s what killed Mountbatten.  So, in Northern Ireland it was illegal for farmers to purchase this product if it’s strength was more than 30%. 
 

This Ammonium nitrate also requires a very small amount of commercial explosive to ignite it/to make it go bang (did you recognise the cluster of flashes or smaller explosions before the main explosion), liken it to a bucket of petrol which in itself is not dangerous but, chucking in a lit match changes this perception.  Anyway, to the uneducated/untrained, it may not be common knowledge that this stuff could be dangerous, it looks like a grow bag from B & Q.

 

Thats all

Edited by highlandjambo3
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Eldar Hadzimehmedovic
57 minutes ago, Cade said:

:wow:

 

 

No idea how far away from it she is but the force is just incredible.

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been here before
36 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Just thought I’d chuck in my tuppence worth just for your information.

 

I spent a lot of time in the Army blowing stuff up (demolition safety officer or explosives engineer for want of a better word).


Its been reported that this explosion was ammonium nitrate based, which is commonly used in fertiliser at industrial level in the agricultural world.  The IRA used to make bombs from this stuff called ANFO (ammonium nitrate mixed with fuel & oil) that’s what killed Mountbatten.  So, in Northern Ireland it was illegal for farmers to purchase this product if it’s strength was more than 30%. 
 

This Ammonium nitrate also requires a very small amount of commercial explosive to ignite it/to make it go bang (did you recognise the cluster of flashes or smaller explosions before the main explosion), liken it to a bucket of petrol which in itself is not dangerous but, chucking in a lit match changes this perception.  Anyway, to the uneducated/untrained, it may not be common knowledge that this stuff could be dangerous, it looks like a grow bag from B & Q.

 

Thats all

 

You seem to know what you're talking about.

 

I fear that this isnt the thread for you.

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Салатные палочки
44 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Just thought I’d chuck in my tuppence worth just for your information.

 

I spent a lot of time in the Army blowing stuff up (demolition safety officer or explosives engineer for want of a better word).


Its been reported that this explosion was ammonium nitrate based, which is commonly used in fertiliser at industrial level in the agricultural world.  The IRA used to make bombs from this stuff called ANFO (ammonium nitrate mixed with fuel & oil) that’s what killed Mountbatten.  So, in Northern Ireland it was illegal for farmers to purchase this product if it’s strength was more than 30%. 
 

This Ammonium nitrate also requires a very small amount of commercial explosive to ignite it/to make it go bang (did you recognise the cluster of flashes or smaller explosions before the main explosion), liken it to a bucket of petrol which in itself is not dangerous but, chucking in a lit match changes this perception.  Anyway, to the uneducated/untrained, it may not be common knowledge that this stuff could be dangerous, it looks like a grow bag from B & Q.

 

Thats all

 

Was that what they called "the black stuff"? I am actually reading a book just now that mentioned the ban. It mentioned that it actually gave birth to the car bomb as one of the first victims of it was blown up in his car in an "own goal". 

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10 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

You seem to know what you're talking about.

 

I fear that this isnt the thread for you.

🤣 absolutely. 

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8595359/Lebanese-authorities-repeatedly-warned-danger-hazardous-chemicals.html

 

 

Lebanon has placed every official responsible for the security of Beirut's port for the last six years under house arrest as it investigates a massive explosion which has devastated the city. 

The country's political leaders vowed those responsible for the tragedy would 'pay the price', but customs officials pointed the finger of blame back at them - saying they were repeatedly warned of the danger but failed to act.

It came as an astonishing photo emerged, purporting to show the dock's Warehouse 12 filled with ammonium nitrate - with the highly explosive chemical stored in simple construction sacks with no other protection in place.

The dangerous load is understood to have been abandoned by Russian businessman Igor Grechushkin in September 2013 before eventually being transferred to the port where it remained for six years. 

A ship carrying the load was detained en route from Batumi, in the ex-Soviet republic Georgia, to Mozambique, and never recovered. 

On Tuesday evening a fire that started in Warehouse 9 ignited 2,750 tons of the chemical - sparking an explosion with three kilotons of force, equivalent to a fifth the size of the Hiroshima nuclear blast. 

The health minister tonight announced the death toll had risen to 135, with some 5,000 wounded and dozens still missing in Beirut, which officials have called a 'disaster city'.

 

 

Excuse the link.  😉

 

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On 04/08/2020 at 18:34, Cade said:

 

Not sure that's your jurisdiction, ya wanks

On alert for another terror attack, is what they're hinting. 

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highlandjambo3
40 minutes ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

Was that what they called "the black stuff"? I am actually reading a book just now that mentioned the ban. It mentioned that it actually gave birth to the car bomb as one of the first victims of it was blown up in his car in an "own goal". 

Not sure.......

if you look at the amount of border between northern & Southern Ireland, back in the troubles it was quite easy for farmers to store masses of this stuff....either willingly or by persuasion.  It was easily mixed up in the south then transported north by tractor towing silage containers......tbh they were pretty good at what they did.

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highlandjambo3
37 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8595359/Lebanese-authorities-repeatedly-warned-danger-hazardous-chemicals.html

 

 

Lebanon has placed every official responsible for the security of Beirut's port for the last six years under house arrest as it investigates a massive explosion which has devastated the city. 

The country's political leaders vowed those responsible for the tragedy would 'pay the price', but customs officials pointed the finger of blame back at them - saying they were repeatedly warned of the danger but failed to act.

It came as an astonishing photo emerged, purporting to show the dock's Warehouse 12 filled with ammonium nitrate - with the highly explosive chemical stored in simple construction sacks with no other protection in place.

The dangerous load is understood to have been abandoned by Russian businessman Igor Grechushkin in September 2013 before eventually being transferred to the port where it remained for six years. 

A ship carrying the load was detained en route from Batumi, in the ex-Soviet republic Georgia, to Mozambique, and never recovered. 

On Tuesday evening a fire that started in Warehouse 9 ignited 2,750 tons of the chemical - sparking an explosion with three kilotons of force, equivalent to a fifth the size of the Hiroshima nuclear blast. 

The health minister tonight announced the death toll had risen to 135, with some 5,000 wounded and dozens still missing in Beirut, which officials have called a 'disaster city'.

 

 

Excuse the link.  😉

 

Close proximity to a blast can actually completely vaporise you.....People will literally dissolve 

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5 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Close proximity to a blast can actually completely vaporise you.....People will literally dissolve 

 

I would expect anyone within a certain range to have been pretty much disintegrated by the shock wave alone. There will possibly be not a shred  of some ever found. Others may be identified by small traces of DNA.

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J.T.F.Robertson
7 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Just thought I’d chuck in my tuppence worth just for your information.

 

I spent a lot of time in the Army blowing stuff up (demolition safety officer or explosives engineer for want of a better word).


Its been reported that this explosion was ammonium nitrate based, which is commonly used in fertiliser at industrial level in the agricultural world.  The IRA used to make bombs from this stuff called ANFO (ammonium nitrate mixed with fuel & oil) that’s what killed Mountbatten.  So, in Northern Ireland it was illegal for farmers to purchase this product if it’s strength was more than 30%. 
 

This Ammonium nitrate also requires a very small amount of commercial explosive to ignite it/to make it go bang (did you recognise the cluster of flashes or smaller explosions before the main explosion), liken it to a bucket of petrol which in itself is not dangerous but, chucking in a lit match changes this perception.  Anyway, to the uneducated/untrained, it may not be common knowledge that this stuff could be dangerous, it looks like a grow bag from B & Q.

 

Thats all

 

Used in the Oklahoma City bombing, I think. (may already have been said)

 

 

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highlandjambo3
6 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I would expect anyone within a certain range to have been pretty much disintegrated by the shock wave alone. There will possibly be not a shred  of some ever found. Others may be identified by small traces of DNA.

The shock wave (or rapid air displacement as it’s known) is what knocks down walls so to speak, it won’t vaporise you.....to disappear you would need to be in close proximity the actual physical blast, let’s say (rough guess) anyone within 100-200m of that blast won’t ever be found, their DNA will have burned up so no evidence they ever existed will be found but....the evidence of someone being there will be a foot found in a boot, a leather wallet, items if jewellery etc....but no flesh or bone.

Edited by highlandjambo3
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highlandjambo3
12 hours ago, Salad Fingers said:

 

Was that what they called "the black stuff"? I am actually reading a book just now that mentioned the ban. It mentioned that it actually gave birth to the car bomb as one of the first victims of it was blown up in his car in an "own goal". 

In the early days of remote detonation, there were one or two “own goals” as they were setting stuff up, wee Jonny playing with his remote controlled airplane close by was usually enough to set a device off however, as the IRA grew with time, so did their support and, electrical engineering specialists got involved with the more sophisticated stuff...boobytraps, under car bombs and the likes.

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Hopefully Faslane doesn't ever go pop with missiles and warheads in Dock. 

 

It would be a :wtf: oh, never mind, moment. 

Edited by ri Alban
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47 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

The shock wave (or rapid air displacement as it’s known) is what knocks down walls so to speak, it won’t vaporise you.....to disappear you would need to be in close proximity the actual physical blast, let’s say (rough guess) anyone within 100-200m of that blast won’t ever be found, their DNA will have burned up so no evidence they ever existed will be found but....the evidence of someone being there will be a foot found in a boot, a leather wallet, items if jewellery etc....but no flesh or bone.

 

This isn't about air displacement, it's about vibration. A shock wave on that level will completely obliterate a body.
 

An example of how vibration kills would be a story I read recounted by a WW2 veteran. Nothing like on this level but still a shock wave vibration kill. A shell exploded nearby. The guy telling the story survived but his mate who was actually slightly further away from it than he was is dead.

He could see no damage to the guy. Untouched by shrapnel but blood running from ears and nose. What killed him was the vibration from the shock wave. Tore up arteries and organs.

The guy telling the story though nearer survived because the shock wave (vibration) traveled up from the impact point in an expanding cone shape. He being slightly closer and crouching lower just missed the cone entirely. His mates upper body was inside it. Innards shredded by the vibration. 

I feel a shock wave on the level of this Beirut blast would transmit such a massive vibration that any body it passed through would effectively be liquefied. The liquefied flesh being blown clean off the bones and scattered in droplets.

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highlandjambo3
19 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

This isn't about air displacement, it's about vibration. A shock wave on that level will completely obliterate a body.
 

An example of how vibration kills would be a story I read recounted by a WW2 veteran. Nothing like on this level but still a shock wave vibration kill. A shell exploded nearby. The guy telling the story survived but his mate who was actually slightly further away from it than he was is dead.

He could see no damage to the guy. Untouched by shrapnel but blood running from ears and nose. What killed him was the vibration from the shock wave. Tore up arteries and organs.

The guy telling the story though nearer survived because the shock wave (vibration) traveled up from the impact point in an expanding cone shape. He being slightly closer and crouching lower just missed the cone entirely. His mates upper body was inside it. Innards shredded by the vibration. 

I feel a shock wave on the level of this Beirut blast would transmit such a massive vibration that any body it passed through would effectively be liquefied. The liquefied flesh being blown clean off the bones and scattered in droplets.

Almost correct........

 

First of all a “shock wave” is air displacement.

 

Secondly, A shell is different in design to a mass of explosives.... a shell is a shaped charge (inverted cone as you mentioned) designed to detonate on * impact in one specific direction...I.e through the side of a tank after it strikes......if you are at the other side of that cone you will be shredded...obliterated etc....someone a few feet away could see it all happen and survive.  The Beirut blast was not a shaped charge designed to go in one direction, it was a mass of explosive with an equal circumference of air displacement.  
So, as I mentioned, explosives and detonation is all about air displacement.....everything you see afterwords (fireballs due to fuel ruptures, buildings falling down) is all secondary because of the damage air displacement has caused.

 

* although that direction can actually be all round, as in an artillery shell (like a big grenade) designed to cause maximum damage.

Edited by highlandjambo3
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14 hours ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

No idea how far away from it she is but the force is just incredible.

Looks to be about 1200m on google maps. A similar distance of, from Britannia to the foot of Leith Walk.

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Governor Tarkin
53 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I'm having flashbacks to the expert legal opinions on the court case thread.

 

:lol:

 

I know what you mean, but I think @highlandjambo3 might actually be an expert on blowing shit up. 👍

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highlandjambo3
39 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

:lol:

 

I know what you mean, but I think @highlandjambo3 might actually be an expert on blowing shit up. 👍

Well I was when in the army.......been out a good few years now but when I left I handed back my ID card and uniform.....I didn’t hand back my 25years experience........ Some stuff stays with you.

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