Hearts transfers (Cochrane goes on loan to Montrose)

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, Kenneth Dubeke said:

I'm afraid you are in denial my friend 

 

 

 

We weren't even on the worst run of form in the league when demoted or bookie's favourites to go down. It was far from a foregone conclusion, despite Stendel not looking up to a relegation battle while still learning our game.

[soonbe110]

39 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

And only 13 goals from his time in the championship. His stats for a striker are really poor since he left Peterborough.

Was only ever a prolific scorer during one season with St.Ives. More of a creator than a prolific scorer. Makes runs, creates space for others, runs his socks off. 

[Adam_the_legend]

Just now, ToqueJambo said:

 

Not denying that. Saying we could have stayed up and I wouldn't have bet against us doing it. Ultimately though we were relegated because of the pandemic, just like Hamilton or another team escaped a play-off because of it and Raith were promoted because of it. I'm pretty sure if we'd known a pandemic was coming we'd have appointed a new manager much sooner!

This is what I don’t get. Whether you or I think we would’ve been relegated or not is irrelevant. For a club with our budget and resources to even be close to the bottom of the league is the real travesty. I pray RN can replicate his previous spell but we (AB and the board) need to learn lessons so we can get back to challenging for Europe.

 

If you’d told me the kind of money we’d spend 5 years ago I’d be thinking challenging the OF and getting results in Europe against decent teams not playing Alloa or Ayr in the championship. We NEED to learn the lessons, something, IMO, AB has consistently failed at. Fingers crossed progress is made. 

[soonbe110]

39 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

 

Everyone is aware where the club has underperfomed the last 4 years,removing Craig Levein was the single and most important decision made.

 

However what we need now is a clear indication of what the clubs plans are,appointing Robbie is all fine and well but unless we get that support network around him regarding his own coaching team and scouting staff etc then we are all just 2nd guesssing.I'd imagine getting in McCulloch and Forrest in has formed the most important talks so far.

 

Bringing in JJ to advise is a good move however we really need to look long term as to what we are going to do regarding scouting/signing youths and 1st team players.

What we have done is bring back/retain our head of scouting and player recruitment who had retired at the end of last season. The Board’s  new football advisor wanted him back on the payroll. 

[WASTREL]

4 minutes ago, Scottie Wanshot. said:

couldn't imagine getting much money for him. ???

If his immediate future with us was with minimal first team football and a newly promoted ambitious club came looking for him and he was keen for the move dont think we would be looking for much money, if any. 

[Pasquale for King]

8 minutes ago, Scottie Wanshot. said:

couldn't imagine getting much money for him. ???

Because he’s not up to it, tiny and slow.  

[Jamhammer]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

What we have done is bring back/retain our head of scouting and player recruitment who had retired at the end of last season. The Board’s  new football advisor wanted him back on the payroll. 

Murray?

[soonbe110]

9 minutes ago, Scottie Wanshot. said:

couldn't imagine getting much money for him. ???

No, but freed from his contract which does mean money for us to spend on someone else. 

[soonbe110]

Just now, Jamhammer said:

Murray?

Got it in one 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

What we have done is bring back/retain our head of scouting and player recruitment who had retired at the end of last season. The Board’s  new football advisor wanted him back on the payroll. 

It was him that hired him initially, I haven’t seen that mentioned before, thanks for the info. A ****ing disastrous decision. 

[Dia Liom]

42 minutes ago, Kenneth Dubeke said:

3rd in a league minus Hibs and Rangers.  Both have finished above us in every year since 

 

That's difficult to pass off as progress 

 

Finishing 3rd in the premiership is not progress after finishing 1st in the championship.  Aye right.  Keep digging, son.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 minute ago, Adam_the_legend said:

This is what I don’t get. Whether you or I think we would’ve been relegated or not is irrelevant. For a club with our budget and resources to even be close to the bottom of the league is the real travesty. I pray RN can replicate his previous spell but we (AB and the board) need to learn lessons so we can get back to challenging for Europe.

 

If you’d told me the kind of money we’d spend 5 years ago I’d be thinking challenging the OF and getting results in Europe against decent teams not playing Alloa or Ayr in the championship. We NEED to learn the lessons, something, IMO, AB has consistently failed at. Fingers crossed progress is made. 

 

We all know football never goes to plan. I seem to be in a minority in believing injuries - followed by mistakes made in rectifying the inability to get over the injuries (by both Budge and Levein) - were responsible for our league position. We were flying before the spine of the team was ripped out and we never recovered. If we hadn't had those crippling injuries I'd be a lot more down on the club. I mean no-one seriously thinks we'd be in this position if we'd had Haring and co fit for longer, no matter who the manager was.

 

We tried something different with the DoF-head coach system and it didn't work, or we didn't have the right person as DoF. Now that system has been ripped up and we have the owner appointing the manager, who reports to the owner and works alongside a sporting director (or advisor in JJ in the interim) who also reports directly to the owner. So I disagree Budge has failed to learn lessons. Apparently she's also changing the wage structure back to the more usual bonus system.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Got it in one 

You have to be kidding me. John ‘goat any guid players m8’ Murray is still running recruitment?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It was him that hired him initially, I haven’t seen that mentioned before, thanks for the info. A ****ing disastrous decision. 

 

We don't know that. Maybe he works well with JJ? Football's all about combinations of people on the pitch and off it.

[Leveins Battalion]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

You have to be kidding me. John ‘goat any guid players m8’ Murray is still running recruitment?

 

 

If true ,shambles.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

You have to be kidding me. John ‘goat any guid players m8’ Murray is still running recruitment?

 

The head scout doesn't run recruitment.

[baxterd1974]

9 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:

This is what I don’t get. Whether you or I think we would’ve been relegated or not is irrelevant. For a club with our budget and resources to even be close to the bottom of the league is the real travesty. I pray RN can replicate his previous spell but we (AB and the board) need to learn lessons so we can get back to challenging for Europe.

 

If you’d told me the kind of money we’d spend 5 years ago I’d be thinking challenging the OF and getting results in Europe against decent teams not playing Alloa or Ayr in the championship. We NEED to learn the lessons, something, IMO, AB has consistently failed at. Fingers crossed progress is made. 

Our wage budget was marginally below Aberdeen and marginally above Hibs.  So you think they will challenge the OF and go on Euro runs?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The head scout doesn't run recruitment.

Symantecs 

[Leveins Battalion]

4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The head scout doesn't run recruitment.

 

His title in Linkedin is 'Head of Recruitment' not head scout.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Leveins Battalion

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

His title in Linkedin is 'Head of Recruitment' not head scout.

Give him five minutes while he thinks up another dodge

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Symantecs 

 

Not semantics at all. He takes direction from JJ I assume, who takes direction from Neilson in terms of the players he needs, in what positions, etc. He provides options and Neilson signs the players.

 

Some like to focus on the bad signings every team gets, but we've also made a lot of very good signings under Murray. I assume he was here 2014/15 when we recruited an entire new squad superbly? We then signed Souttar, Djoum, McLaughlin and many others who did very well. What I find is the folk who like to knock the club day after day tend to dismiss the good signings as flukes but hammer the club for the bad signings.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

5 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

His title in Linkedin is 'Head of Recruitment' not head scout.

 

Obsessed much? Murray does not decide which players we go for or sign, any more than the Head of Human Resources decides who a company hires. They find and help filter candidates, that's it.

Edited August 4, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Guest ToqueJambo]

12 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Give him five minutes while he thinks up another dodge

 

Did we or did we not recruit brilliantly last time we were in the championship which - according to his LinkedIn profile, seeing as someone mentioned it - is when Murray started as Head of Recruitment? Is it possible it was a team effort, like it will be this time?

 

Our recruitment has been poor recently because Levein signed too many "projects" at one time, and we signed too many players to cover for injuries when we should have persisted with young players for longer. That came from Levein not Murray. We need someone to manage the scouts network and Murray or whoever manages them will be given instructions about the types of players we want. Head of Recruitment, Chief Scout, whatever is not the same as Sporting Director or DoF.

Edited August 4, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Leveins Battalion]

10 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Not semantics at all. He takes direction from JJ I assume, who takes direction from Neilson in terms of the players he needs, in what positions, etc. He provides options and Neilson signs the players.

 

Some like to focus on the bad signings every team gets, but we've also made a lot of very good signings under Murray. I assume he was here 2014/15 when we recruited an entire new squad superbly? We then signed Souttar, Djoum, McLaughlin and many others who did very well. What I find is the folk who like to knock the club day after day tend to dismiss the good signings as flukes but hammer the club for the bad signings.

 

 

The club is being knocked as we have been relegated and are currently in the 2nd Division of Scottish Football,now John Murray had a massive part to play in getting us here.

 

What I find is that despite the unaceptable and embarrasing situation in which HMFC currently finds itself in,that people still want to defend the culprits who have gotten us here.

[Kenneth Dubeke]

27 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

What we have done is bring back/retain our head of scouting and player recruitment who had retired at the end of last season. The Board’s  new football advisor wanted him back on the payroll. 

JJ wants to retain John Murray?

[Boyces beard]

Its time to start sniffing wrists again, its honking of sister juice again!

[Guest ToqueJambo]

4 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

 

The club is being knocked as we have been relegated and are currently in the 2nd Division of Scottish Football,now John Murray had a massive part to play in getting us here.

 

What I find is that despite the unaceptable and embarrasing situation in which HMFC currently finds itself in,that people still want to defend the culprits who have gotten us here.

 

It's not down to one person. Manager, players, everyone are responsible. I have no idea who John Murray is or what he's like at his job but he works to a recruitment strategy decided by others in terms of players to target. He doesn't set the strategy. Neilson, Stendel, Cathro and Levein all wanted different types of players. JM tries to find them. We've had a lot of good successes. It's not been all duds. You can go through the signings of other teams over the last 5 years and find similar or worse duds and fewer successes.

Edited August 4, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

 

The club is being knocked as we have been relegated and are currently in the 2nd Division of Scottish Football,now John Murray had a massive part to play in getting us here.

 

What I find is that despite the unaceptable and embarrasing situation in which HMFC currently finds itself in,that people still want to defend the culprits who have gotten us here.

From what I've read here so far the culprits have gone (Levein et al.) Murray, I'm guessing, was working to Leveins direction.

 

Or if it's all Murray's fault then Levein has no blame regards player recruitment, regards first xi.

 

Which is it?

[wavydavy]

3 hours ago, JamboAl said:

I actually think it is reasonable to live within our means, one track or not. You may have a greater sense of entitlement and think it matters not whether we can afford potential signings.  We had enough of overspending before which led to our near demise.  Only a Hibs supporter would want a repeat.

 

[Pasquale for King]

36 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

We don't know that. Maybe he works well with JJ? Football's all about combinations of people on the pitch and off it.

He couldn’t work well with Pep or Klopp, he’s useless and when will people get it through their heads that Jeffries is advising the board PT not Neilson, who is unlikely to be asking for his help anytime soon. Name one player that he and Jeffries signed in their time together that was any good?

Edited August 4, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[CJGJ]

2 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Wage caps in leagues 1&2 down south come into force (if formally approved) for season 21/22. This coming season is the one where ambitious club owners will be pushing the boat out to get promotion out of league 1 and 2 before the caps come into effect. The caps will really change their squad quality in 12 months time compared to today. We will pick up players next summer but not this summer. 

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/efl-salary-cap-explained-how-portsmouth-might-be-impacted-wage-limits-squad-numbers-and-transfer-fees-2913567

 

Some good info about current salaries in Leagues 1 and 2 as well

 

Championship clubs are also considering change in the future

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

From what I've read here so far the culprits have gone (Levein et al.) Murray, I'm guessing, was working to Leveins direction.

 

Or if it's all Murray's fault then Levein has no blame regards player recruitment, regards first xi.

 

Which is it?

Both, if your scout gives you a choice of 5 useless *****, you pick one and don’t coach them properly and have clueless tactics, that’s a recipe for disaster. 

[Leveins Battalion]

12 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It's not down to one person. Manager, players, everyone are responsible. I have no idea who John Murray is or what he's like at his job but he works to a recruitment strategy decided by others in terms of players to target. He doesn't set the strategy. Neilson, Stendel, Cathro and Levein all wanted different types of players. JM tries to find them. We've had a lot of good successes. It's not been all duds. You can go through the signings of other teams over the last 5 years and find similar or worse duds and fewer successes.

 

Nope,and that is why there is countless threads on Kickback,Talk Hearts,Facebook,Twitter ,EEN.Scottish MSM as to why HMFC recruitment has been a shambles.

 

Its like Groundhog Day.

[wavydavy]

3 hours ago, JamboAl said:

That was the poster trying to be his contrary self.  We have have Souttar, Berra, Halkett and Hamilton as CBs with Haring and Smith well able to cover.  I don't how many more he thinks we will need and how we're going to pay for them

 

Actually if you look at my post it was in reply to someone suggesting we would need cover for Naismith being out injured. I think you will find that Souttar has a lengthy history of being out injured so far in his career.

 

We have Halkett and Berra as actual Centre Backs with Smith who can play there as well but we don't actually have  anyone else other than some of the younger guys.

 

Haring might be an option but we don't know how he will be after being out injured for over a year.

 

So my comment is maybe not so contrary after all. Why do you persist with this "how are we going to pay for them " quip constantly?

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Both, if your scout gives you a choice of 5 useless *****, you pick one and don’t coach them properly and have clueless tactics, that’s a recipe for disaster. 

You would hope the manager would say they're all useless, try again?

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Boris said:

You would hope the manager would say they're all useless, try again?

You would hope so but we’re talking about Levein who signed Zlamal/Doyle/Perriera to name a few. Have either managed to pick a decent LB in the last 6 years for example. This is backwards step but so was hiring JJ and possibly Neilson.

[Leveins Battalion]

35 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Obsessed much? Murray does not decide which players we go for or sign, any more than the Head of Human Resources decides who a company hires. They find and help filter candidates, that's it.

 

 

Nah not obsessed,but massively intrigued into prominent figures at the club i support,even more so when they are underperforming and still involved.

[Kenneth Dubeke]

46 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

 

Finishing 3rd in the premiership is not progress after finishing 1st in the championship.  Aye right.  Keep digging, son.

Given Hearts are the 3rd largest club in Scotland under pretty much every conceivable metric,  who would you have felt we should finish behind in a league minus Hibs and Rangers?

 

Clearly we've gone full circle and back where we started 6 years later. Same manager back at the helm. Budge appears to know few people in football. She hung on to Levein far too long and has gone back for Neilson. That doesn't appear to be the actions of a well connected football club owner 

 

If it's true that JJ has wanted John Murray to come back I truly worry about where we're going and what lessons we've learned from recent failings 

 

I certainly don't think Hearts will ever realise our full potential whilst Ann Budge is at the helm 

[graygo]

2 hours ago, Kenneth Dubeke said:

The signs were there. We chose to ignore them. When did we last finish behind Hibs 3 years in a row

 

I thought after relegation that followed relegation that we would never witness such indignity again. Sadly 6 years later its gone full circle. The money that has flowed through the club in that 6 year period compared to Livingston,  Hamilton et al would be horrendous to visualise 

 

Since the inception of the Premier Division concept in 1975, we along with Dunfermline are the second joint most relegated side in that period 

 

Shocking 

 

2 of those relegations had mitigating circumstances.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Kenneth Dubeke said:

Given Hearts are the 3rd largest club in Scotland under pretty much every conceivable metric,  who would you have felt we should finish behind in a league minus Hibs and Rangers?

 

Clearly we've gone full circle and back where we started 6 years later. Same manager back at the helm. Budge appears to know few people in football. She hung on to Levein far too long and has gone back for Neilson. That doesn't appear to be the actions of a well connected football club owner 

 

If it's true that JJ has wanted John Murray to come back I truly worry about where we're going and what lessons we've learned from recent failings 

 

I certainly don't think Hearts will ever realise our full potential whilst Ann Budge is at the helm 

Absolutely spot on. 

[wavydavy]

53 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It was him that hired him initially, I haven’t seen that mentioned before, thanks for the info. A ****ing disastrous decision. 

 

I wasn't aware of this either. I like JJ and knew it was him that hired Murray in the first place but if he has been retained or re-hired then this is as you say disastrous.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Folk thinking we can go out in the middle of a global pandemic and hire a whole new scouting team 🙄 

 

Seems prudent as a short term fix in the circumstances (just like JJ is) to being in someone who has a proven record for recruiting for us last time we needed a championship winning team, who knows JJ and Neilson, who knows the Scottish game and players, who knows all the other Hearts scouts, and who probably has a list of players ready to go. I mean can scouts even properly scout players just now?

 

How do we know Murray and co didn't put players in front of Levein and Cathro in the past that they rejected, but might have worked out well? 

[Leveins Battalion]

3 minutes ago, Kenneth Dubeke said:

Given Hearts are the 3rd largest club in Scotland under pretty much every conceivable metric,  who would you have felt we should finish behind in a league minus Hibs and Rangers?

 

Clearly we've gone full circle and back where we started 6 years later. Same manager back at the helm. Budge appears to know few people in football. She hung on to Levein far too long and has gone back for Neilson. That doesn't appear to be the actions of a well connected football club owner 

 

If it's true that JJ has wanted John Murray to come back I truly worry about where we're going and what lessons we've learned from recent failings 

 

I certainly don't think Hearts will ever realise our full potential whilst Ann Budge is at the helm 

 

 

''Hearts will never realise our full potential whilst Ann Budge is at the helm''

 

There  it is!

 

 

 

 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You would hope so but we’re talking about Levein who signed Zlamal/Doyle/Perriera to name a few. Have either managed to pick a decent LB in the last 6 years for example. This is backwards step but so was hiring JJ and possibly Neilson.

No arguments regards Leveins ultimate inability. I guess the point is who has the final say. You would imagine it is the manager and if they are happy with what is being offered, the blame lies at their door for A. Accepting the dross and B. Not emptying the supplier of said dross.

 

But as has been mentioned, there have been decent signings.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Just now, wavydavy said:

 

I wasn't aware of this either. I like JJ and knew it was him that hired Murray in the first place but if he has been retained or re-hired then this is as you say disastrous.

 

Hyperbolic shite. Wasn't Murray at the club when we signed our last Championship team?

[Kenneth Dubeke]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

2 of those relegations had mitigating circumstances.

They did. But the fact we found ourselves in a position to be impacted is telling 

 

The second most relegated club after Dundee since football moved I to the modern era in Scotland 

 

This relegation is the most disgraceful of all. Call it expulsion if preferable. The warning signs were there for a long long time and ignored. Fans turning on each other and an owner defiantly defending someone who'd overseen incomprehensible failure 

 

That's the real reason why we are where we are. No matter how much we try and convince ourselves its wholly down to injustice inflicted upon us by others. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You would hope so but we’re talking about Levein who signed Zlamal/Doyle/Perriera to name a few. Have either managed to pick a decent LB in the last 6 years for example. This is backwards step but so was hiring JJ and possibly Neilson.

 

Yes. 

 

Wait, is this, is this the first "Neilson oot"? Must be a record even for Kickback.

Edited August 4, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Kenneth Dubeke]

2 minutes ago, Leveins Battalion said:

 

 

''Hearts will never realise our full potential whilst Ann Budge is at the helm''

 

There  it is!

 

 

 

 

I genuinely don't think we will mate 

[soonbe110]

19 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/efl-salary-cap-explained-how-portsmouth-might-be-impacted-wage-limits-squad-numbers-and-transfer-fees-2913567

 

Some good info about current salaries in Leagues 1 and 2 as well

 

Championship clubs are also considering change in the future

Yes, some good info. As far as I know the clubs have not yet approved it and their current thinking is that it will not become mandatory until 21/22. Bristol Rovers are spending lots at the moment eg Sam N, in an effort to get out of league 1 before the cap comes into effect. Other clubs doing similar. It’s their last chance of paying players silly money if they remain a league 1 club. 

[gowestjambo]

After the plethora of woeful signings Hearts have made over the last few years, I am utterly amazed John Murray is still employed by the club in any capacity.