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Pans Jambo

Anyway, whats happening with this?

 

Interviews all done?

 

Candidates "whittled down" to the last 2?

 

Offer been made?

 

Who is it then?

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On 06/07/2020 at 12:38, Jingle Bells said:
Chairwomen
 
Board
 
CEO
 
Sporting Director
 
Football Manager
 
Head of Academy
 
Head of Recruitment
 
Head of Coach Education
 
Loan Manager
 
Hearts might not appoint  a CEO or Sporting Director  but if we do it seems quite a long chain of command for a medium  sized Club, sitting bottom of the league.last term.
cleardot.gif

 

We're a business covering a wide range of activities with an 8 figure turnover. That also looks very linear. I think it would more be like

 

Chair

Board/ 'executive management team'

Manager - Sporting Director

                 I

Various footballing department Heads

 

The manager is responsible for first team affairs and works alongside the Sporting Director to discuss footballing needs/ Strategy. e.g. identifying players, youth development etc. which is then relayed down the chain. 

 

I don't think its bloated at all. For the sake of example, look at Levein, was covering the entire football department and ended up spreading himself too thin and failing miserably. Likewise, Budge may be looking towards taking a step back, hence the need to employ a CEO into the exec management team to look after day to day operations. Budge could focus more on big picture thinking e.g maintaining relationships with benefactors, sponsors etc. The CEO would look more at the actual management of the business.  

 

Having people responsible for the individual lanes which make up the club seems like a positive to me. Obviously they all need to be pulling their weight, and there needs to be a level of ruthlessness when failure occurs. E.g. sustained poor scouting should merit a change in leadership on this front. But overall it seems good. The failure on the footballing side isn't a failure on the business side. I.e we weren't hindered by off the field activities, it was strictly a failing within the football department which has been remedied by Leveins departure. 

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PhoenixHearts
17 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


PS - I would love to play the ball but given that you don’t even know what a sporting director is (or how recruitment has changed in the past 30 years) where to start? I don’t have all night.

 

Your name suggests otherwise tbh

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34 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

We're a business covering a wide range of activities with an 8 figure turnover. That also looks very linear. I think it would more be like

 

Chair

Board/ 'executive management team'

Manager - Sporting Director

                 I

Various footballing department Heads

 

The manager is responsible for first team affairs and works alongside the Sporting Director to discuss footballing needs/ Strategy. e.g. identifying players, youth development etc. which is then relayed down the chain. 

 

I don't think its bloated at all. For the sake of example, look at Levein, was covering the entire football department and ended up spreading himself too thin and failing miserably. Likewise, Budge may be looking towards taking a step back, hence the need to employ a CEO into the exec management team to look after day to day operations. Budge could focus more on big picture thinking e.g maintaining relationships with benefactors, sponsors etc. The CEO would look more at the actual management of the business.  

 

Having people responsible for the individual lanes which make up the club seems like a positive to me. Obviously they all need to be pulling their weight, and there needs to be a level of ruthlessness when failure occurs. E.g. sustained poor scouting should merit a change in leadership on this front. But overall it seems good. The failure on the footballing side isn't a failure on the business side. I.e we weren't hindered by off the field activities, it was strictly a failing within the football department which has been remedied by Leveins departure. 

Good post and I think our set-up will be much like you describe to avoid overlap and grey areas.

One key factor in our original Budge organisation was that she admittedly knew little about football and therefore CL was appointed as  DoF with overarching responsibility for all football matters.  We know now that was too much for one man.

She will be much wiser now and RN will certainly be more experienced so the DoF post will be redundant and the organisation leaner and flatter.

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Anyway, whats happening with this?

 

Interviews all done?

 

Candidates "whittled down" to the last 2?

 

Offer been made?

 

Who is it then?

Craig Levein.

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21 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


But if manager after manager signs a load of shite - as has happened at Man Utd since Fergie left - where does it leave a club? It leaves them constantly trying to rid themselves of players they don’t want, which has pretty much been Hearts for the past three years. It becomes a massive waste of money.

 

There’s a balance to be struck and a lot of modern clubs are finding the balance. Have an overarching transfer strategy which managers/coaches fit into and which creates some sort of longer term plan. If you think about it, it makes sense.

Who’s fault is it if the Sporting Director signs a load of shite ? A manager has to be in charge of all football matters because the first team and it’s future direction has to be the managers responsibility that’s why they are employed. The manager has to be supported by staff like his first team staff and all the other departments that is a conduit that supports the first team. Rather than the manager working daily on improving training facilities, medical, scouts, contracts, SPFL,  paper work etc a Sporting Director would be there to pick up the non First team management.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
Just now, mitch41 said:

Who’s fault is it if the Sporting Director signs a load of shite ? A manager has to be in charge of all football matters because the first team and it’s future direction has to be the managers responsibility that’s why they are employed. The manager has to be supported by staff like his first team staff and all the other departments that is a conduit that supports the first team. Rather than the manager working daily on improving training facilities, medical, scouts, contracts, SPFL,  paper work etc a Sporting Director would be there to pick up the non First team management.


Football has completely changed though. Clubs use statistics, data science and algorithms to find players. Like Sevilla, where Monchi runs the show. Liverpool have a massive recruitment department. Klopp obviously influences it hugely but he doesn’t just slap down a list of targets. Managers tend to come and go. Clubs can have more of a plan this way

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And how many clubs are successful. Success comes from a manager. A club owner has the responsibility of employing a manager and backing him with all that club can do. I will always believe a Sporting Director must be there to assist a manager. 

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Guest ToqueJambo

We should approach Tony Ashgar to be Sporting Director and get D Utd to throw in Micky Mellon as Robbie's assistant.

 

Noted that the media has so far made no mention of Mellon's recent vociferous opposition to clubs being relegated by a vote. 

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Ainsley Harriott
2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Anyway, whats happening with this?

 

Interviews all done?

 

Candidates "whittled down" to the last 2?

 

Offer been made?

 

Who is it then?

Ann has whittled it down to 50 potentials expect an announcement around mid November 

 

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Guest ToqueJambo
7 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ann has whittled it down to 50 potentials expect Craig Levein to be announced around mid November 

 

 

FTFY. I'd actually be OK with that. Experienced. Speaks well. Knows the game. Good relationship with Robbie and Ann. Big Jambo.

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8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ann has whittled it down to 50 potentials expect an announcement around mid November 

 

I know its a bit of a running joke but she's said twice now on separate occasions months apart that we would bring in a SD before a manager. I'd fully expect one TBA before August tbh. 

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1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

Who’s fault is it if the Sporting Director signs a load of shite ? A manager has to be in charge of all football matters because the first team and it’s future direction has to be the managers responsibility that’s why they are employed. The manager has to be supported by staff like his first team staff and all the other departments that is a conduit that supports the first team. Rather than the manager working daily on improving training facilities, medical, scouts, contracts, SPFL,  paper work etc a Sporting Director would be there to pick up the non First team management.


Dusk Till Dawn’s post hints at the much derided “boot room” philosophy it was said we were going to follow.

 

Maybe this was a bit blue sky thinking but he is right IMO.

 

Look how disruptive each new appointment we have had has been. We

need to find a system that recognised that (1) if our manager is more successful than average, wins a cup and gets some Euro experience he will move to a bigger club (2) the same goes for any players that you bet achieve, but (3) in amongst this we need a system that when a manager moves or one or two key players leave we don’t change half the team, or more.

 

The boot room thing isn’t far off but the academy is key to this and having somebody in place in an SD type role whose job is to ensure as much consistency of approach is another key part.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
8 minutes ago, Jammy T said:


Dusk Till Dawn’s post hints at the much derided “boot room” philosophy it was said we were going to follow.

 

Maybe this was a bit blue sky thinking but he is right IMO.

 

Look how disruptive each new appointment we have had has been. We

need to find a system that recognised that (1) if our manager is more successful than average, wins a cup and gets some Euro experience he will move to a bigger club (2) the same goes for any players that you bet achieve, but (3) in amongst this we need a system that when a manager moves or one or two key players leave we don’t change half the team, or more.

 

The boot room thing isn’t far off but the academy is key to this and having somebody in place in an SD type role whose job is to ensure as much consistency of approach is another key part.


Good post.

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1 hour ago, mitch41 said:

And how many clubs are successful. Success comes from a manager. A club owner has the responsibility of employing a manager and backing him with all that club can do. I will always believe a Sporting Director must be there to assist a manager. 

That simply has to be the case, Mitch, or the danger is that too many cooks spoil the broth. 

Imagine comparing us with Sevilla and Liverpool.  That's like saying Albion Rovers don't do things the same way as Rangers or Celtic.

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Pans Jambo
2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Craig Levein.

Outstanding candidate IMO...

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1 hour ago, Jammy T said:


Dusk Till Dawn’s post hints at the much derided “boot room” philosophy it was said we were going to follow.

 

Maybe this was a bit blue sky thinking but he is right IMO.

 

Look how disruptive each new appointment we have had has been. We

need to find a system that recognised that (1) if our manager is more successful than average, wins a cup and gets some Euro experience he will move to a bigger club (2) the same goes for any players that you bet achieve, but (3) in amongst this we need a system that when a manager moves or one or two key players leave we don’t change half the team, or more.

 

The boot room thing isn’t far off but the academy is key to this and having somebody in place in an SD type role whose job is to ensure as much consistency of approach is another key part.

Forget a Bootroom as we’d of had Day then Fox then god knows who after Neilson & Crawford left. Alway employ the best person for the job not the best mate you’ve employed who you have told he’s next in line for the managers job. Its utter madness.

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1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

That simply has to be the case, Mitch, or the danger is that too many cooks spoil the broth. 

Imagine comparing us with Sevilla and Liverpool.  That's like saying Albion Rovers don't do things the same way as Rangers or Celtic.

Well said JamboAl.

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1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Outstanding candidate IMO...

Imagine the reaction if she came out and said after considering all options your new Sporting Director is Mr Craig Levein 🤣🤣

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Jambo in Bathgate
9 minutes ago, steve123 said:

Imagine the reaction if she came out and said after considering all options your new Sporting Director is Mr Craig Levein 🤣🤣

He is serving his penance on BBC and other media talking up Hearts. Could be part of the second coming or third in Craig Levein’s case 😂

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Guest ToqueJambo
2 hours ago, Jammy T said:


Dusk Till Dawn’s post hints at the much derided “boot room” philosophy it was said we were going to follow.

 

Maybe this was a bit blue sky thinking but he is right IMO.

 

Look how disruptive each new appointment we have had has been. We

need to find a system that recognised that (1) if our manager is more successful than average, wins a cup and gets some Euro experience he will move to a bigger club (2) the same goes for any players that you bet achieve, but (3) in amongst this we need a system that when a manager moves or one or two key players leave we don’t change half the team, or more.

 

The boot room thing isn’t far off but the academy is key to this and having somebody in place in an SD type role whose job is to ensure as much consistency of approach is another key part.

 

 

It wasn't so much a boot room thing as a coach development strategy. We weren't tied to appointing within, but we stated we wanted to increase our chances of doing that to avoid paying through the nose for a complete new management team every couple of years. The strategy involved putting someone we thought could be a future manager in charge of the U20s and see how he gets on.

 

From that, we've seen Neilson and Jack Ross progress to be decent head coaches and Andy Kirk shows promise by all accounts. Jon Daly of course didn't. Not sure who's in charge of the U20s now, but I assume we're looking at him as the coach with the best chance of progressing as the U20s job is a self-contained manager position.

 

I see nothing wrong with continuing to try to do it, so long as we're never tied to it, which we never were despite what some people say. Out of our last 5 manager appointments, only one came from the current coaching set-up/U20s. And he was our best manager.

 

The main downside of this strategy was that a new manager from outside like Stendel is likely to want his own team. However, he did promote Andy Kirk so there was still some of the continuity the strategy is supposed to help deliver.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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1 minute ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

He is serving his penance on BBC and other media talking up Hearts. Could be part of the second coming or third in Craig Levein’s case 😂

🤣🤣🤣 we never realised he was here all along !!

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3 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

FTFY. I'd actually be OK with that. Experienced. Speaks well. Knows the game. Good relationship with Robbie and Ann. Big Jambo.

Now I worry about. What are you on. Get to the Doctor now. 

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1 hour ago, steve123 said:

Imagine the reaction if she came out and said after considering all options your new Sporting Director is Mr Craig Levein 🤣🤣

ST refunds for at least 4 I know. Can people forget the damage Levein did to Hearts ? NO.

Anyway let’s wait and see who Ann has chosen and forget about you know who. 
Let’s hope Robbie Neilson is involved in who is offered the job. Because the SD will be 

working for Ann & Robbie.

Edited by mitch41
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9 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

ST refunds for at least 4 I know. Can people forget the damage Levein did to Hearts ? NO.

Anyway let’s wait and see who Ann has chosen and forget about you know who. 
Let’s hope Robbie Neilson is involved in who is offered the job. Because the SD will be 

working for Ann & Robbie.

I know mate I was only having a laugh, that ship has sailed !!

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
2 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Forget a Bootroom as we’d of had Day then Fox then god knows who after Neilson & Crawford left. Alway employ the best person for the job not the best mate you’ve employed who you have told he’s next in line for the managers job. Its utter madness.


I think he did say forget the boot room

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
2 hours ago, mitch41 said:

Forget a Bootroom as we’d of had Day then Fox then god knows who after Neilson & Crawford left. Alway employ the best person for the job not the best mate you’ve employed who you have told he’s next in line for the managers job. Its utter madness.


A boot room is flawed because you are lining up coaches way before they’re proven. But it’s not that hard to employ a series of managers with the same ethos/ideas that the club have overall.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
3 hours ago, JamboAl said:

That simply has to be the case, Mitch, or the danger is that too many cooks spoil the broth. 

Imagine comparing us with Sevilla and Liverpool.  That's like saying Albion Rovers don't do things the same way as Rangers or Celtic.


Try Brentford then. Assuming you’ve heard of them.

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33 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


A boot room is flawed because you are lining up coaches way before they’re proven. But it’s not that hard to employ a series of managers with the same ethos/ideas that the club have overall.


The Boot Room isn’t flawed at all.

 

It’s no different to the youth academy......we have a bunch of Goalies at various ages etc and we hope that they can all step up and make the grade eventually. If they don’t cut it then they’re released and we source from another club. Why can’t it be the same for coaches ?
 

Our best manager since administration was promoted from the academy.....the rest of the other appointments were failures. And if things had worked out differently Jack Ross could have been Neilsons replacement from within. He’s carved out a decent career so far.

 

Boot rooms and youth academies take years and years to come to any fruition.

 

 

 

 

Edited by DH1986
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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Try Brentford then. Assuming you’ve heard of them.

Not the slightest bit interested in what happens at Brentford.  If whatever they do works for them that's great. I am very pleased for them.  Now back to the famous HMFC!

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Is this close? Seems like it's dragging on a bit, in fact, it's been dragging on since before stendel was appointed.

 

Hopefully he/she shows up soon as even accepting expulsion to the championship with its later start date we could do with looking at players soon.

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1 hour ago, Taffin said:

Is this close? Seems like it's dragging on a bit, in fact, it's been dragging on since before stendel was appointed.

 

Hopefully he/she shows up soon as even accepting expulsion to the championship with its later start date we could do with looking at players soon.

Am I right in thinking FoH might have a say in all of this and waiting to see which division we're in?

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7 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Am I right in thinking FoH might have a say in all of this and waiting to see which division we're in?

 

Not sure. We need one regardless of division though but yes, it may change who we can get.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
15 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Not the slightest bit interested in what happens at Brentford.  If whatever they do works for them that's great. I am very pleased for them.  Now back to the famous HMFC!


Of course you’re not interested in them. They’re ambitious and successful.

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2 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Of course you’re not interested in them. They’re ambitious and successful.

Bully for them!  I notice they have a HEAD COACH, not a MANAGER.

We must do what is right for HMFC and, rightly or wrongly (time will tell), we have appointed a MANAGER!

Live with it, try and get behind the team and give your ideological claptrap a rest.

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21 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Ann has whittled it down to 50 potentials expect an announcement around mid November 

 

has to be an x hearts man though.

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25 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Of course you’re not interested in them. They’re ambitious and successful.


You want us to be more like Brentford? How do we go about this? Genuinely don’t know a lot about their set up. What parts would you like to see us emulate?

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Leveins Battalion

What's Simon Hunt up to these days?

 

Now there is a guy who has an eye for a player.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


You want us to be more like Brentford? How do we go about this? Genuinely don’t know a lot about their set up. What parts would you like to see us emulate?


Their scouting is exceptional and uses data/statistics to pick up players for affordable fees who are often sold on for big money. They’re doing it again with Watkins/Benrahma. They accept that they’re going to lose players to bigger clubs but they use the money they have sensibly. It’s also helped them to fund a new stadium for next season. On top of that, they’ve had a consistent style of football for years and have always tried to recruit for it (coaches and players). They’re on the brink of the Premier League with a turnover of £15m, the same as ours, give or take, and crowds of around 12k. It’s a very good model.

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Rick Sanchez

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.

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18 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Their scouting is exceptional and uses data/statistics to pick up players for affordable fees who are often sold on for big money. They’re doing it again with Watkins/Benrahma. They accept that they’re going to lose players to bigger clubs but they use the money they have sensibly. It’s also helped them to fund a new stadium for next season. On top of that, they’ve had a consistent style of football for years and have always tried to recruit for it (coaches and players). They’re on the brink of the Premier League with a turnover of £15m, the same as ours, give or take, and crowds of around 12k. It’s a very good model.


Most of what you have put here, was the plan that Levein tried to implement. The consistency of style, and continuity part in particular. A couple of problems with that set up, is we can’t get as much in transfer fees as clubs down south, and we struggle to attract players like clubs down south. There’s also no guarantee when employing coaches and scouts, as they can look good on paper but just fail. I’d like us to implement t some kind of successful system like that too, sounds great. Easy to talk about it, less easy to make it work.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
12 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


Most of what you have put here, was the plan that Levein tried to implement. The consistency of style, and continuity part in particular. A couple of problems with that set up, is we can’t get as much in transfer fees as clubs down south, and we struggle to attract players like clubs down south. There’s also no guarantee when employing coaches and scouts, as they can look good on paper but just fail. I’d like us to implement t some kind of successful system like that too, sounds great. Easy to talk about it, less easy to make it work.


I think there are probably straightforward changes we can make to at least bridge the gap a little. I don’t actually know the structure of our scouting system but there is plenty about our recruitment which rings alarm bells. My assumption would be that it needs modernising. A good sporting director would help to do that. I know some people don’t think it’s a worthwhile position but personally I reckon it is. I had no problem with a DOF or the original appointment of Levein - it was just apparent that Levein kept making mistakes (although let’s not get back into that subject). We need two things to do well - a strong academy and clever use of money in the transfer market.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
19 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.


They did have an academy but it kept losing players to bigger London clubs. So they run a B team instead with players who’ve been released from Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal etc plus other youngsters they find themselves.

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Jambof3tornado
24 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Brentford have a combination of moneyball recruitment and signing youngsters from London clubs who have been released and giving them a chance.

 

I'm sure they don't have an academy as they see it as a waste of money when so many of the youngsters are good, just never gonna make it at a big London team.

 

Not a daft idea in that catchment area.

Is the catchment area key though? Heck of a lot of clubs to be picking up players from. Up here we would be very limited finding freed youngsters better than our own.

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1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


I think there are probably straightforward changes we can make to at least bridge the gap a little. I don’t actually know the structure of our scouting system but there is plenty about our recruitment which rings alarm bells. My assumption would be that it needs modernising. A good sporting director would help to do that. I know some people don’t think it’s a worthwhile position but personally I reckon it is. I had no problem with a DOF or the original appointment of Levein - it was just apparent that Levein kept making mistakes (although let’s not get back into that subject). We need two things to do well - a strong academy and clever use of money in the transfer market.

Who would you have as Sporting Director and how much do you think we can reasonably afford to pay him/her?

 

The highlighted (in red) parts just serve to demonstrate your negative beliefs.  You don't know but you're going to criticise anyway.

 

If I had time to be bothered with your ideological tripe, I would go through the country's teams and show you many where your set up doesn't work, or works less well.  That is not to say things have been anywhere near perfect here of late.

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