Jump to content

Irvine Welsh on sectarianism......


Section Q

Recommended Posts

John Findlay
3 hours ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

You are thinking of where the old print works were. The club is actually down the basement right opposite the old Taylor’s bakery near the  Esso garage.

BP garage. The Northern bar is now the Orchard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 141
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • GinRummy

    20

  • WorldChampions1902

    10

  • TheBigO

    9

  • Hearts007

    7

4 hours ago, TheBigO said:

There should be a comma after "pedantic".

Now don't get me started,,,,,,,,,,,,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, WorldChampions1902 said:

LOL!  You were lucky not to be lifted by the polis that frequently visited the Police Box opposite! So are you saying you went into the club on its first day of opening? When was that? I’ve a feeling it stopped being a Doo’s club mid 70’s.

Think it was 1978 it became Morrison and Gibbs  club used to get 10p a week taken of our wages that paid your years membership 30p a pint and 20p for a vodka and orange and i was earning fifty quid a week tenner to my ma digs and the world was my proverbial lobster happy days  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The dick just sums up Hibs tbh.  All about junkies, drugs and prostitution. Made a living writing about everything Hibs.

absolute weapon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Rangers use of Orange strips and goalie tops, not a nod to anything, no?

 

They do nothing to distance themselves from one of the biggest issues in our country. By proxy and with the odd nudge along, they amplify it.

 

You won't convince me otherwise so we prob shouldn't debate it tbh FH.

 

They are a surge on our game and on our society.

 

And shite like Only an Excuse with their wee titters and pathetically unfunny skits make it seem normal thereby perpetuating it. And the MSM are too shit-scared of offending the perpetrators of sectarianism (thus losing revenue) that they won't call it as it happens. Not even a publicly-funded broadcaster...shameful from the BBC, absolutely shameful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Independence
11 hours ago, Section Q said:

The guy's a joke.

Claiming Celtic minus sectarianism = Hibs....!

Anyone else missed the Irish flags and crap songs at Easter Rd....!

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-join-rangers-blasting-irvine-14089946

Is he back on drugs? Serious question. Been a Jambo for 60 years and the tricolour and sectarian songs continue! from our 5-1r's in Leith!! Unfortunately we also have a small but loud minority of sectarian nutters who I wish would go to Ibrox if thats what they want?

Edited by Independence
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

And shite like Only an Excuse with their wee titters and pathetically unfunny skits make it seem normal thereby perpetuating it. And the MSM are too shit-scared of offending the perpetrators of sectarianism (thus losing revenue) that they won't call it as it happens. Not even a publicly-funded broadcaster...shameful from the BBC, absolutely shameful.

Yup buddy. That's our football.

 

My god, to be the team to bring it down some day!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/05/2020 at 09:52, TheBigO said:

He's right though. Yes, Hibs fly Irish flags, as we do UJs, but are we founded on it? Are we reliant on it.

 

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

Well put bud. My feelings too.

 

My thing is that we both have idiots in our support who try to use their wavey flags to antagonise one another. It doesn't define us though. Not a bit.

 

The Glasgow Giants as they love to be called, however, built empires on it.

 

I'd rather be us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Well put bud. My feelings too.

 

My thing is that we both have idiots in our support who try to use their wavey flags to antagonise one another. It doesn't define us though. Not a bit.

 

The Glasgow Giants as they love to be called, however, built empires on it.

 

I'd rather be us.

 

that's the nub of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, 4marsbars said:

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

 

Good to see a sensible post about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Riccarton3
22 hours ago, TexasAndy said:

His rant about us cheating in 2012 final was one of the most bitter childish things I have ever read

 

Is that in the article?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weakened Offender
On 28/05/2020 at 09:52, TheBigO said:

He's right though. Yes, Hibs fly Irish flags, as we do UJs, but are we founded on it? Are we reliant on it.

 

His only error here is saying Partick instead of Hearts (for obv reasons).

 

There were 8 pro clubs in Glasgow (I think). Why are the OF much bigger in size than Partick, Queens Park, ThirdLanark, especially the ones who were originally competitive...? One word:sectarianism.

 

And the fact that both clubs have the sheer temerity to absolve themselves and in fact defend themselves against accusations of sectarianism when they do nothing about their fans' weekly songbooks and prejudice-related crimes shows Welsh to be spot on. They've actually supported his statement with their retorts.

 

They're so wrapped up in themselves they don't see it, but the rest of Scottish football do.

 

Instead of whatabootery, the rest of Scottish football should be standing against the issue as the OF have proven time and again they're unwilling to (as its their best marketing tool).

 

Hearts and Ann Budge in particular have at the very least recognised its existence and said we want to get rid. Have either OF actually ever come out and said this???

 

Great post. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Riccarton3 said:

Is that in the article?

No he wrote an article sometime after the final.  Think it was EEN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

doctor jambo
16 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Yup buddy. That's our football.

 

My god, to be the team to bring it down some day!!!

When I was 12 i found Only an Excuse funny.

3 decades + later, its now excruciating to watch.

I find it amazing that OAE, and the Old Firm have not changed in all that time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Riccarton3
26 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

No he wrote an article sometime after the final.  Think it was EEN

Different from just after the game when he talked about it like it was a league match. Playing it down like he's been there as a neutral! Typical Hibbie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Different from just after the game when he talked about it like it was a league match. Playing it down like he's been there as a neutral! Typical Hibbie

Yeah it was few weeks or possibly months after.  He had a right rant.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forever Hearts
On 28/05/2020 at 12:40, John Findlay said:

You don't do Scottish football history very well. The only time the OF have not been dominant in Scottish football was 1945-65. 

The only person you are fooling is yourself if you do not believe religious sectarianism played no part in their supports being as large as they are.

Late 1980s before the Govan mob signed a Roman Catholic to play first team football.

And you can't seem to read very well. I said it had played a part but the bigger reason for their huge support was the fact they win most of the trophies and dominate the media. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

tolcross lad

Scotland is changing in a natural way.Devines research certainly  reflects my personal experience having worked in the west of Scotland and lived in the east.

It seems to me that over the generations things will change but slowing this change is the tribalism stemming from Celtic and Rangers. 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/16130742.tom-devine-why-sectarianism-in-scotland-is-on-its-death-bed/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bazzas right boot
On 28/05/2020 at 09:52, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Celtic minus

- trophies

- fans who turn up to games

- respectable derby record

= Hibs

 

Quite correct. 

 

The bigotry has crept back into both sets of Edinburgh fans again recently. 

Still a minority tho compared to the arse cheeks who's entire culture is based on it. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bazzas right boot
5 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Good to see a sensible post about this.

 

On 28/05/2020 at 09:52, TheBigO said:

He's right though. Yes, Hibs fly Irish flags, as we do UJs, but are we founded on it? Are we reliant on it.

 

His only error here is saying Partick instead of Hearts (for obv reasons).

 

There were 8 pro clubs in Glasgow (I think). Why are the OF much bigger in size than Partick, Queens Park, ThirdLanark, especially the ones who were originally competitive...? One word:sectarianism.

 

And the fact that both clubs have the sheer temerity to absolve themselves and in fact defend themselves against accusations of sectarianism when they do nothing about their fans' weekly songbooks and prejudice-related crimes shows Welsh to be spot on. They've actually supported his statement with their retorts.

 

They're so wrapped up in themselves they don't see it, but the rest of Scottish football do.

 

Instead of whatabootery, the rest of Scottish football should be standing against the issue as the OF have proven time and again they're unwilling to (as its their best marketing tool).

 

Hearts and Ann Budge in particular have at the very least recognised its existence and said we want to get rid. Have either OF actually ever come out and said this???

 

 

On 28/05/2020 at 15:30, TheBigO said:

Well, no. I fully agree with the thrust of his point.

 

It would have had better impact to use Hearts and Hibs or neither, though.

 

Even if he thinks Hibs have no issue and Hearts do, his point re the OF still stands. Just means he's a shortsighted bawbag who has had his souls removed by his Derby neighbours. Which we know him to be.

 

 

Yip. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Irvine Welsh - Scum writer...Glorifies drug use, and low life behaviour with characters usually wearing a Hibs top! ....no doubt about it, Hibs hang onto Celtic coat tails and revel in their rebel cause (IRA, Palestine...etc). No doubt about it, Hearts support in the 70's were as rabid as the Rangers fans when it came to loyalist....FTP and all that stuff. I suppose you could blame the Ulster troubles for a lot of that.  
A lot of top clubs in England have had religious leanings. I'm thinking about Spurs and the Jewish community. But seriously has their ever been a religious divide in England, or elsewhere comparable with Celtic / Rangers?.....Liverpool / Everton, Man C / Man U, Arsenal / Spurs...German, French, Argentinian etc...? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John Findlay
1 hour ago, Forever Hearts said:

And you can't seem to read very well. I said it had played a part but the bigger reason for their huge support was the fact they win most of the trophies and dominate the media. 

Disagree totally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Riccarton3
3 hours ago, Hashimoto said:

Irvine Welsh - Scum writer...Glorifies drug use, and low life behaviour with characters usually wearing a Hibs top! ....no doubt about it, Hibs hang onto Celtic coat tails and revel in their rebel cause (IRA, Palestine...etc). No doubt about it, Hearts support in the 70's were as rabid as the Rangers fans when it came to loyalist....FTP and all that stuff. I suppose you could blame the Ulster troubles for a lot of that.  
A lot of top clubs in England have had religious leanings. I'm thinking about Spurs and the Jewish community. But seriously has their ever been a religious divide in England, or elsewhere comparable with Celtic / Rangers?.....Liverpool / Everton, Man C / Man U, Arsenal / Spurs...German, French, Argentinian etc...? 

I think Hibs have had a very pragmatic relationship with Celtic. Hibs accept their role and look for benefits of the relationship that allows them to function at their level, with the odd cup. Have never felt Hearts have had the same thing with Rangers, I am so glad to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, 4marsbars said:

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

They are called Hibernian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

I think Hibs have had a very pragmatic relationship with Celtic. Hibs accept their role and look for benefits of the relationship that allows them to function at their level, with the odd cup. Have never felt Hearts have had the same thing with Rangers, I am so glad to say.


Agreed!......I've been going to Tynecastle since the 1960's....That period in the early 70's when Tynecastle was probably the most intimidating ground in Scotland....Songs were right out of the Rangers song book that always ended with the usual FTP........Lot's of trouble with Lothian and Borders finest wading into the shed. Again, lots of localised gangs (Oxgangs / Clermiston / Niddrie...etc) with a distinct Hearts / Hibs split. And it's right there where Welsh gets the basic material for his dumbed down stories. It's made him rich, but he glorifies it. I almost feel that he yearns back to a time when Muirhouse and Pilton were one of the worst hit drugs area's in Europe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forever Hearts
15 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Disagree totally.

It's no different than kids from Devon to Durham to Dublin walking about wearing Liverpool or Manchester United tops, and that has nothing to do with religion. Success will attract glory hunters, always has and it always will. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/05/2020 at 20:49, Kiwidoug said:

I support anyone who speaks out against sectarianism.  I am amused however that he aligned Celtic with hibs.  He had to do that bacause hibs is the only other sectarian club in Scotland.  Their name confirms that.

 

He is wrong about financial penalties being needed to stamp it out.  Points deductions and expulsion from competitions are what's required.

Sorry but that is absolute garbage. Unless I'm missing something, Ireland doesn't=sectarian. There are only two sectarian clubs in Scotland. Others, like us unfortunately, have some sectarian fans

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, 4marsbars said:

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

Well said

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

They are called Hibernian.

 

Hibernia, Latin for the island of Ireland.  Few Hibs fans speak fluent Latin, and I very much doubt that notions of Irishness, of whatever flavour, have much to do with any Edinburgher's choice of football team. Other cities do things differently and are the  poorer for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read most books by Irvine Welsh,some are very good others meh,some parts of Acid House is class,very funny and dark,don't know him personally and don't want to know him personally either,Hibs W*nk that he is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doctor FinnBarr
5 hours ago, weegranty said:

I have read most books by Irvine Welsh,some are very good others meh,some parts of Acid House is class,very funny and dark,don't know him personally and don't want to know him personally either,Hibs W*nk that he is.

 

I tried to read "Pigs" whilst working in Aberdeen, failed big style and went to the pub instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 29/05/2020 at 10:09, 4marsbars said:

 

As I understand it, Hibs began as a church team. There's nothing sectarian about that. This was at a time when Catholics were more likely to experience discrimination or exclusion from participating in society.

 

Things have moved on a great deal. I don't have a problem with Hibs having that heritage - it's just history, and it is in no way shameful. I've plenty mates who support Hibs, very few are RC (not that that matters), and none are remotely sectarian (in the broadest sense).

 

Hearts began as a bunch of pals who frequented the same dance hall. For some reason, over the years, some Hearts fans have imagined that the club has some kind of orange, unionist heritage, similar to Rangers. But we haven't and our pretendy loyalists can get lost as far as I'm concerned. What unites us is that we are an Edinburgh team, normally its number one team, with no creed or politics or deeper meaning, and that diversity/combination is good enough for me. In everyday life, I'm fully engaged in politics on a number of levels. I go to football to escape and forget that and rub shoulders with people I'd disagree with on lots of issues, united in support of our team. In my experience, and I've lived in this city for more than 60 years, most Hibs fans are the same.

I think your opening paragraph is where a religious divide probably existed for a time when both clubs were formed. We must remember the world was a different place in 1874, 75. 
 

By default, Protestants probably gravitated more to supporting Hearts as both teams popularity and existence got stronger. There is something written in Edinburgh history of the Cowgate becoming little Ireland and the bridges in the area were used (in tongue in-cheek reference) as Edinburgh building over the area to hide them away. 
 

This sort of thing was bound to cause friction and force leanings whether in sympathy or resentment.  
 

It’s unfortunate. I totally agree with what you say above. Hearts were started in the most simple terms with no political or religious bias or an “ethos” to attract certain quarters. But I think society got in the way eventually for a time. 

Edited by Debut 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tried to read one of his books once. 

 

A dug's dinner of a page it was. 

 

Casual/criminal fanboy. Pathetic for a bloke of his age. 

Edited by martoon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

maroonedinoz

I took my missus to the opening screening of Trainspotting 2 here in Sydney.....there were  absolutely zero other people in attendance!

 

Dunno how he got rich writing the way he does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seymour M Hersh

Irvine Welsh on any subject you care to name is (insert number of minutes taken to read or listen to it) is time you will never get back. Best ignored. Like all other vermin. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

I think your opening paragraph is where a religious divide probably existed for a time when both clubs were formed. We must remember the world was a different place in 1874, 75. 
 

By default, Protestants probably gravitated more to supporting Hearts as both teams popularity and existence got stronger. There is something written in Edinburgh history of the Cowgate becoming little Ireland and the bridges in the area were used (in tongue in-cheek reference) as Edinburgh building over the area to hide them away. 
 

This sort of thing was bound to cause friction and force leanings whether in sympathy or resentment.  
 

It’s unfortunate. I totally agree with what you say above. Hearts were started in the most simple terms with no political or religious bias or an “ethos” to attract certain quarters. But I think society got in the way eventually for a time. 

 

 

That's an interesting way to put it.

 

And in this more secular age, it would be intriguing to know what fraction of each team's support are churchgoers and which persuasion (or active followers of other religions). Nowadays, I'd say that churchgoing people have more in common with other churchgoers from different denominations than they have with people of no religion. Based on attendances at Sunday games that start around midday, I don't see much evidence of people flocking from church to match, or even missing the match (and I am sure that some do). I lapsed some time ago, for what it is worth.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doctor FinnBarr
10 hours ago, martoon said:

Tried to read one of his books once. 

 

A dug's dinner of a page it was. 

 

Casual/criminal fanboy. Pathetic for a bloke of his age. 

 

Mrs Saunders gave me a book of his to read whilst I was working away in Aberdeen, "Pigs" I think.........managed the first page then went to the pub. For the following month I still never got past that first page, boozer was much more exciting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Mrs Saunders gave me a book of his to read whilst I was working away in Aberdeen, "Pigs" I think.........managed the first page then went to the pub. For the following month I still never got past that first page, boozer was much more exciting.

 

Don't recall which of his novels I tried but it was drivel. Genuinely didn't turn a page after getting about halfway down the first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just read it.

Absolutely no problem with what he is saying.

 

He's still a knob mind you.

Edited by Busby8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...