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4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Don't joke. Every time I visit my wife's home village in China there's this god awful wake up music that comes on to get the workers up and ready for their day at the air force factory. :( 

 

I love it! China is my favourite place I've visited. Oddly (or not, given the communist history), they do this still in Slovakia too, albeit not quite so early in the morning.

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1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

I love it! China is my favourite place I've visited. Oddly (or not, given the communist history), they do this still in Slovakia too, albeit not quite so early in the morning.

 

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Don't joke. Every time I visit my wife's home village in China there's this god awful wake up music that comes on to get the workers up and ready for their day at the air force factory. :( 

Chinese history and culture is very interesting. A place I would like to visit in detail at some point. Its not top of the bucketlist though.

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2 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

Chinese history and culture is very interesting. A place I would like to visit in detail at some point. Its not top of the bucketlist though.

 

It wasn't on mine at all, never mind the top, in fact I didn't ever have an interest in going at all really. I went to visit my friend who was staying there at the time, we went back two years later. I was so fortunate to be with someone who spoke and read mandarin. Without him my experience I'm sure what have been a lot more shallow. I just loved so much about it, as you say the history and the culture was fascinating but it was mainly the people. They were overwhelmingly nice.

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4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

 

I'd hate to have visited as a tourist. It's a confusing and confused place. The locals rarely have a scooby as to what is going on, so god know how tourists feel!

 

Have recently ramped up my level of study (from a pretty low starting point), and reading more and more every day in Chinese characters. At least when the Chinese come and take over officially, I'll get a job as a snitch or guard or something :) 

 

Baoan is it? A guard in a bar, usually sitting at a table napping and smoking 😂😂 

 

Totally agree about the tourist thing. Had I not been with my friend who'd been there two years I'd have spent the whole time thinking wtf is going on!

Edited by Taffin
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25 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

No.  Not virus deniers.  Deniers of the absolute necessity to have hard suppression measures.  

As opposed to the fanatics who endorse the hard suppression measures? Just asking as I think you're implying one group is morally superior to the other.

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8 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It wasn't on mine at all, never mind the top, in fact I didn't ever have an interest in going at all really. I went to visit my friend who was staying there at the time, we went back two years later. I was so fortunate to be with someone who spoke and read mandarin. Without him my experience I'm sure what have been a lot more shallow. I just loved so much about it, as you say the history and the culture was fascinating but it was mainly the people. They were overwhelmingly nice.


Iv a friend who worked for me on the doors who when the SIA came into being deicded to get off the doors and went to China to teach English. Hes been there since , happily married and loves it over there. The description of the peoples as overwhelmingly nice was very much a part of that. 
 

Tbh if I had a choice of where to go and learn about it to the nth degree it would prob be El Mirador or similar.

Edited by sadj
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1 hour ago, Brian Dundas said:

I don’t know. I know that Covid deaths are low in the at home deaths, but I’d need to see cause of deaths of those dying at home and then see what the numbers are for cause of deaths compared to averages. I think but might be wrong the dementia and Alzheimer’s deaths at home were up massively. 

1900 or so were excess cancer deaths. The remainder, I'm not sure about.

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Footballfirst
22 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

The deaths in relation to covid are, by and large, mostly related to underlying health issues (so shield the vulnerable) and badly planned/misguided attempts to control the spread of the virus (lack of tracing contacts and ensuring isolation). Restrictions on the average punter going about their business in a rational and aware manner are, IMO, not doing very much except creating more people with underlying health (both physical and mental) issues for the future.

All the shielding of the vulnerable that was missing during the first lockdown (including lack of PPE, testing etc) has largely been rectified since.  It is punters "going about their business" that has led to to the second/third waves and the death toll is every bit as bad as first time round (despite the virus apparently culling the most vulnerable in society first time round).  The "punters" include those teenagers and students who believe they are invincible. People who shot off to Spain in the summer the minute restrictions were lifted. Then there's the punters who are aware, but still choose to continue to have their friends round to their house for a few bevvies.    

Edited by Footballfirst
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4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

As opposed to the fanatics who endorse the hard suppression measures? Just asking as I think you're implying one group is morally superior to the other.

 

Fanatics :rofl:

 

No I'm not making any moral statements.  Merely getting slightly exasperated that the opponents of hard lockdown still appear not to be seeing the wood for the trees.  I believe all the evidence has proven the case lock(down), stock & barrel that the over-arching strategy was,  not the right one,  the only possible one.  I remain open minded regarding all of the finer details.

 

There's no remaining,  credible argument that we could have proceeded without strict suppression.  None.

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Weakened Offender
43 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Agreed, but the poster I replied to is another of the snarky "anti-SNP no matter what" UJ waving eejits, who seem oblivious to the overall contribution the devastation we are experiencing on a UK wide basis, gets a bit wearying reading their shite TBH

 

Great post. 

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Footballfirst
3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

If that's the case, then it's a bit of 'reap what you sow'. 

 

We've spent years educating successive generations - and even amplified the message in recent years - that we all have the right to think and do whatever we want, within reason. Now, we all know that when something is offered 'within reason', that there will be those who push boundaries. 

 

This is supported by the media, popular culture and government from top to bottom. We've created a consumer culture, permeating across contexts, so predicated on individual rights that responsibilities and any sense of anything other than entitlement (you are entitled to your view, you are entitled to benefits, you are entitled to be happy) sit uncomfortably with a fairly large chunk of the population.

I agree with much of that. It is also why I believe that removing restrictions and asking people to adopt personal responsibility for their own actions would be doomed to failure.  Far too many people, I fear, consider that having personal responsibility means doing what you like and damn the consequences.

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2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree with much of that. It is also why I believe that removing restrictions and asking people to adopt personal responsibility for their own actions would be doomed to failure.  Far too many people, I fear, consider that having personal responsibility means doing what you like and damn the consequences.

 

I agree and would add that personal responsibility,  even in a well meaning,  careful,  responsible person,  is a misplaced notion in relation to epidemiology.  

 

People may be able to mitigate risk of infection to themselves.  It is impossible to mitigate all risk of infection of others.   Personal responsibility / choice is irrelevant to the suppression of a pathogen.

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Adam_the_legend
12 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Fanatics :rofl:

 

No I'm not making any moral statements.  Merely getting slightly exasperated that the opponents of hard lockdown still appear not to be seeing the wood for the trees.  I believe all the evidence has proven the case lock(down), stock & barrel that the over-arching strategy was,  not the right one,  the only possible one.  I remain open minded regarding all of the finer details.

 

There's no remaining,  credible argument that we could have proceeded without strict suppression.  None.


This absolutism is part of the problem. You are so certain you are right you will not entertain opposing views. I have a different view on lockdowns from you and others but I respect your right to have opposing views. There is a possibility that in supporting hard lockdowns you could be favouring far more deaths longer term from mental health, poverty, undetected cancers and other serious disease et al. Certainty of any sort in such a complex and nuanced situation is imo impossible. 

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6 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:


This absolutism is part of the problem. You are so certain you are right you will not entertain opposing views. I have a different view on lockdowns from you and others but I respect your right to have opposing views. There is a possibility that in supporting hard lockdowns you could be favouring far more deaths longer term from mental health, poverty, undetected cancers and other serious disease et al. Certainty of any sort in such a complex and nuanced situation is imo impossible. 

 

If it's absolutist then so be it.  The same absolutism comes from the other side of the argument so I have no qualms about appearing closed to the argument that the over-arching strategy was neccessary.  All of the associated issues remain relevant and are never dismissed.

 

Here's an absolutist truth.  All non covid care in the NHS is completely dependent on suppressing the scale of covid care.  Every quantum of covid added to the workload prevents a quantum of non covid care.

Edited by Victorian
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1 hour ago, Adam_the_legend said:


Any evidence or data to support that view? 

Sure, pretty much whole of the Mail Online Covid 19 section fot the last 9 months.

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Adam_the_legend
4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

If it's absolutist then so be it.  The same absolutism comes from the other side of the argument so I have no qualms about appearing closed to the argument that the over-arching strategy was neccessary.  All of the associated issues remain relevant and are never dismissed.

 

Here's an absolutist truth.  All non covid care in the NHS is completely dependent on suppressing the scale of covid care.  Every quantum of covid added to the workload prevents a quantum of non covid care.


The NHS doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it costs money to run. What happens to all patients, covid or non covid, if there is no money to run the service. This idea that’s it’s healthcare or economy misses the fact that the 2 are inextricably linked.

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Adam_the_legend
1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

Sure, pretty much whole of the Mail Online Covid 19 section fot the last 9 months.


That’s what I thought 🙄

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2 minutes ago, Adam_the_legend said:


The NHS doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it costs money to run. What happens to all patients, covid or non covid, if there is no money to run the service. This idea that’s it’s healthcare or economy misses the fact that the 2 are inextricably linked.

 

They are indeed.  The economy has been partly sacrificed thus far.  In a few months the tables will be turned completely and the economy will become the prime consideration over the remaining public health situation.  An 'acceptable level' of deaths and serious illness will gravitate upon us (it wont be a chosen level as the virus will determine what it is) and the economic recovery will take precedence.  As soon as the NHS situation settles down and they're confident that a lid can be kept on the virus with ongoing vaccinations,  testing,  some ongoing suppression and other measures.

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The Mighty Thor
21 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

We didn’t lockdown hard enough or early enough in March. We should have shut the borders. That doesn’t mean we can just ease restrictions now though. Then the only restrictions would be on international travel. 

The current lockdown is not happening. The bypass gets busier day by day. It would appear the constant talk of vaccines is accelerating the 'feck it, lets get back to normal' mentality. 

This will most likely prolong the restrictions ☹ 

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1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:


I haven’t said we should ease restrictions. 

The reason there is no alternate to lockdown right now is because our govts ****ed up. If the govts had managed this better there most certainly would have been alternates to lockdown. 

 

Lockdown feels like it Einstein’s definition of instantly at times, hopefully the vaccine breaks that feeling. 
 

 

Thats true from the perspective of a proper lockdown initially wouldn't have meant a half assed journey through it to where we are. Now there isnt any real alternative the slowness to act and the inability to close borders initially was always going to turn into a shambles

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58 minutes ago, Victorian said:

BBC news was a difficult watch.  Absolutely sobering.

Thats part of the problem too though its negative negative negative. That just enforces a depressed position in a lot of people and pushes mental health down and people who are resisting more into resisting as they feel its their only option too

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scott herbertson
4 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

We need more pejorative adjectives in my opinion, Scott😀. Seriously though, yes, I agree, hindsight is easy and we certainly had far less experience than those in Asia, in dealing with pandemics. That certainly put us at a disadvantage but, yes, our poor planning and preparation has been costly.  

My main point regarding lockdown is that it should no longer be on the table come late Spring.

 

 

I agree with that - or at least we should come out of most of it, with a few provisos about behaviour and some social gatherings - eg indoor choirs unless you aregoing to passport those who ave been vaccinated, but that's another discussion

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J.T.F.Robertson
On 16/01/2021 at 11:42, Konrad von Carstein said:

Character building, between them and Hearts I'll be full of character, depressed but full of character :( 

 

Tell me about it. Masochism obviously builds character. 👍

 

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8 hours ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

So why can drivers enforce ticket paying but not mask wearing?

 

ive actually been on a bus when the driver turned the engine off because one person had a bus pass that had expired.

 

so why can they not do the same when twits get on bus with no face mask which is a far worse issue...?

It's really simple. He's right to ask for you to pay your bus fare but he's got no legal powers re mask wearing. 

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Samuel Camazzola
6 hours ago, jonesy said:

Let's face it. The driver turned off the engine 'cos he'd recognised you from here and just wanted to wind you up.

😄

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1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

When you off? What protocols you having to do to get on a big ship. 

 

To tag on as well, who are you flying with?

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1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:


That seems optimistic to me. Just did myself and apparently April some time. Though a jab closer if your away. 
 

When you off? What protocols you having to do to get on a big ship. 

Yeah, think it may be a little optimistic: it says the date calculator is using the 400K per week rate (which is currently the target rate for March): if it's using that rate for the full timeline then it's going to wrong- although it's possible they'll continue to improve the weekly rate to mitigate this.

The calculations are also based on a 74% uptake rate which could go up or down. 

It's still worth a look to give a rough guide on dates but I think they could have made it clearer how accurate (or not) it's likely to be: no doubt someone will complain when they haven't had their vaccine by the date the calculator told them!

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Governor Tarkin
32 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

When you off? What protocols you having to do to get on a big ship. 

 

29 minutes ago, Gulpener said:

 

To tag on as well, who are you flying with?

 

No idea who we're flying with yet. The UK embassy of the receiving country is currently closed and as there is a travel ban on visitors from the UK no Visa's are being issued.

We're trying to workaround this with E-Visa's which are technically not valid for paid employment but as the employment is offshore there may be a way around it. Probably some brown envelope stuff.

I've had an ECG, CBC and full OGUK medical this week. All previous medicals are still valid but they want up do date suff as they don't want to chance folk keeling over as medevacs will be a logistical nightmare and medical facilities in-country (such as they are) are stretched.

I need to do a Covid test within 3 days of travel and immediately on arrival in country.

If we test positive on arrival we will be removed to a Govt facility for a 14 day solitary lie-down, otherwise it's off to a hotel room for a 14 day quarantine.

Temperature will be checked in hotel twice a day and another covid test will be required before release from quarantine.

Then bused directly to the port and chucked on the boat.

I'm sure there will be another suite of tests/procedures once we get onboard, and the vessel will essentially be a bubble for the duration of the job.

 

Jumping through hoops to put food in the mouths of the bairns. :D

I'm really not keen on buggering off away from them for months in the middle of a global pandemic but needs must.

 

 

 

Edited by Governor Tarkin
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13 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 

No idea who we're flying with yet. The UK embassy of the receiving country is currently closed and as there is a travel ban on visitors from the UK no Visa's are being issued.

We're trying to workaround this with E-Visa's which are technically not valid for paid employment but as the employment is offshore there may be a way around it. Probably some brown envelope stuff.

I've had an ECG, CBC and full OGUK medical this week. All previous medicals are still valid but they want up do date suff as they don't want to chance folk keeling over as medevacs will be a logistical nightmare and medical facilities in-country (such as they are) are stretched.

I need to do a Covid test within 3 days of travel and immediately on arrival in country.

If we test positive on arrival we will be removed to a Govt facility for a 14 day solitary lie-down, otherwise it's off to a hotel room for a 14 day quarantine.

Temperature will be checked in hotel twice a day and another covid test will be required before release from quarantine.

Then bused directly to the port and chucked on the boat.

I'm sure there will be another suite of tests/procedures once we get onboard, and the vessel will essentially be a bubble for the duration of the job.

 

Jumping through hoops to put food in the mouths of the bairns. :D

I'm really not keen on buggering off away from them for months in the middle of a global pandemic but needs must.

 

 

 

Jeez your arm will be like a well used dart Board 😂

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Governor Tarkin
3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Cheers, interesting. Hopefully it goes all ok and not too boring in isolation. 

 

Hopefully they are wedging you up suitably👍

 

The quarantine will give us time to do all the systems prep that we'd usually do before leaving, so we'll be busy enough. I'll also get the chance to catch up on 9 months worth of broken sleep. :)

 

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Weakened Offender

Good to see the UK's utterly vile and completely dishonest Home Secretary get savaged by Piers and Susannah this morning. 😊

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Samuel Camazzola
5 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

Good to see the UK's utterly vile and completely dishonest Home Secretary get savaged by Piers and Susannah this morning. 😊

Are you sure she got a word in? 😂 

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3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-scotland
 

Calculator to give you a estimate when you will be vaccinated.

 

2 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Towards the end of March or beginning of April for the first jab.

I'll likely be abroad until May however, so will miss my initial slot.

 

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Seems ill get mine in late March then . If I decide to take it . 

That is a pointless calculator.

 

You can customise it at high level, but ultimately it gives 2 vaccination rates.  The default when I opened was 400k per week and that ramp up isn't due till end February.  Even then, that is only capacity to do if any catch up required, not vaccines into arms.

 

The other is a last (current) 7 day average.

 

So my dates are either last week March or last week September, when the SG plan for me is by mid May, although I saw a tweet crediting NS saying all 50+ by April, where I haven't seen that interview.  IMO, if anything that would be when I would be able to access the booking system.

 

The SG has a plan based on promised supplies.  Let's get all 4 nations supply, priority and vaccinations plans up for general view.  Then we can review how successful each one is compared to JCVI priorities and promises.

 

Edit - My wife in social care at 400k pw is next few days, but average last 7 days is 15 April.

 

The booking system for Lauriston Place for her had slots from 25 Jan.  She is booked in for 28th which she did to align to a standard cancer screening appt.

 

Edited by DETTY29
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Weakened Offender
15 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said:

Are you sure she got a word in? 😂 

 

She had a pop when the HS denied the government had allowed people to meet at Christmas. 😊

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The Mighty Thor
22 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

Good to see the UK's utterly vile and completely dishonest Home Secretary get savaged by Piers and Susannah this morning. 😊

Aye she reckons that the UK should have shut its borders last March.

 

Over to the Home Secretary then.

 

Oh wait.....

 

Couldn't tarnish that horrible boot's neck with a blowtorch 

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Governor Tarkin
23 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

Good to see the UK's utterly vile and completely dishonest Home Secretary get savaged by Piers and Susannah this morning. 😊

 

Piers is also a vile and completely dishonest ****.

 

I enjoy watching him taking the Govt to task, but I'd absolutely love to watch him being rag-dolled no end.

 

Premier League's 6 most car-crash TV moments - including Kevin Keegan's  famous rant - Daily Star

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Governor Tarkin
3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Couldn't tarnish that horrible boot's neck with a blowtorch 

 

:wub:

 

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Governor Tarkin
1 minute ago, DETTY29 said:

Why?

 

👍

 

Why not? It's only a bit of fun. I doubt anybody will be basing their expectations on it.

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Weakened Offender
2 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Piers is also a vile and completely dishonest ****.

 

I enjoy watching him taking the Govt to task, but I'd absolutely love to watch him being rag-dolled no end.

 

Premier League's 6 most car-crash TV moments - including Kevin Keegan's  famous rant - Daily Star

 

I absolutely do agree with you regarding Piers. It's a sad state of affairs that he seems to be the only one capable of taking these animals to task. 

 

Susannah though 🤩 I would ride that until the neighbours complained about the smell. ❤️

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3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Why not? It's only a bit of fun. I doubt anybody will be basing their expectations on it.

I should have just said it's not accurate if real plan.

 

 

Edited by DETTY29
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