SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[Forrest]

2 hours ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Re your final para : SPFL legal advice warned them Sky had paid for exclusive rights for 20/21 so if they planned to complete the 19/20 season it needed to be completed before 20/21 started or there might be refunds due on the new TV deal. 

That's why they never had any intention of completing the 19/20 season : the £32 million due under the new media contracts. No way was this to be put at risk. 

I'm pretty sure that if we'd said to Sky: "listen, we want to finish 19/20; your deal stands, but it's going to kick off a couple of months late, and we might even give you sponsorship of a competition at a reduced rate," that Sky wouldn't have brought down Scottish football. There's no way they'd take the reputational risk of being the ones responsible for killing Scottish football. (Directly, anyway!) 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Forrest

[Kiwidoug]

Being a graduate of Trump University with a keen mind I am expecting us to be reinstated and awarded the compensation sought.  Same with Partick.

 

Seems fair to me.

[RobNox]

15 hours ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

 

The only SFA tribunal that most of us have had any close interest in, and insight to, was the LNS tribunal into the Rangers cheating. There can be little doubt of the skullduggery involved in that procedure and the gerrymandered result, but that result came about because both sides were looking for the same result, and one side 'losing' was never on the cards. That is definitely not the case here, with both sides at loggerheads, and one side well aware of the other's penchant for a lack of fairness.

 

 

Also worth bearing mind Ally is that the scope of the LNS tribunal was set by the SFA, therefore prevented him from digging into areas that the SFA would rather he didn't.  You also had Regan getting involved in the tribunal, no doubt to try and influence things.  Campbell Ogilvie was also involved in some capacity, a guy who before taking up his position at the SFA, was the Rangers secretary and himself a beneficiary of the unlawful EBT scheme.  Talk about a conflict of interest!

 

The scope of our Arbitration is set by our petition to the CoS.  It will look into all aspects of our claim, including a lot of documentation that the SPFL seemed very reluctant to release.

 

I'm quietly confident that we will get a favourable outcome of some sort.

 

[graygo]

40 minutes ago, RobNox said:

 

Also worth bearing mind Ally is that the scope of the LNS tribunal was set by the SFA, therefore prevented him from digging into areas that the SFA would rather he didn't.  You also had Regan getting involved in the tribunal, no doubt to try and influence things.  Campbell Ogilvie was also involved in some capacity, a guy who before taking up his position at the SFA, was the Rangers secretary and himself a beneficiary of the unlawful EBT scheme.  Talk about a conflict of interest!

 

The scope of our Arbitration is set by our petition to the CoS.  It will look into all aspects of our claim, including a lot of documentation that the SPFL seemed very reluctant to release.

 

I'm quietly confident that we will get a favourable outcome of some sort.

 

 

I'll say it again, the LNS gig wasn't a tribunal. It was a commission which as you rightly state had it's scope dictated by the SFA.

Completely different and not comparable to our situation.

[RobNox]

15 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Whilst I don't doubt for one second that the SPFL will endeavour to reveal as little as possible, i'm not sure that they have the balls to deliberately perjure themselves. Remember that the discovery documents have been court ordered and that we are entitled to cross examination if necessary, while Doncaster, nelms et al are dodgy, can a fabricated story between them stand up to cross examination by an experienced QC?

 

That's exactly my thought as well.  They aren't giving interviews to Richard Gordon here, they won't get away with beating around the bush or giving vague soundbite answers. And as you say, if they risk trying to concoct a story between them, they will be picked apart by our QC.

[Aussie Jambo]

Reading HKB on predicted outcomes can be like..

 

 

[His name is]

With regards to the sky deal. Do each premiership club get a equal amount or is this split between the league price money?

[TheBigO]

1 hour ago, Aussie Jambo said:

Reading HKB on predicted outcomes can be like..

 

 

Christ, has Shaun Michaels got involved now?!

[1971fozzy]

8 hours ago, hearts00 said:

Anything over £1m in compensation I would view as a victory here. 
 

The chances of reinstatement must be less than 5% now. 

 

[gashauskis9]

Why do folk think our chances of a positive outcome are getting slimmer the longer this takes?  It’s an arbitration, the panel involved aren’t going to sit down and say “right, the season’s due to start next week so let’s nip this in the bud quick”.  The case will be judged on evidence presented, not external influence from Doncaster and the media. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

9 minutes ago, gashauskis9 said:

Why do folk think our chances of a positive outcome are getting slimmer the longer this takes?  It’s an arbitration, the panel involved aren’t going to sit down and say “right, the season’s due to start next week so let’s nip this in the bud quick”.  The case will be judged on evidence presented, not external influence from Doncaster and the media. 

 

Probably due to the history of the way Scottish football has operated over the last 50 or more years.  

[indianajones]

Longer the better if anything. 

 

Judge has his expectations from this and was pretty clear he will welcome the case back if he isn't satisfied. 

[Lone Striker]

7 hours ago, AllyjamboDerbyshire said:

Sorry, too,  but I just don't get the idea that it can be alright to set a criteria after the fact. (That's not what I'm suggesting).   Surely if it is wrong to relegate/promote when less than 65% (or whatever) it is equally wrong to do it when only 79% has been played. Yes - agreed. They should  state up front in a rule that none will happen without some kind of playoff or finishing the season normally (eventually).    Added to which, to say, on the season following a relegation/promotion after only 79% of games played that the league is setting a criteria below which promotion won't be allowed, surely highlights the unfairness of the original decision while putting the relegated teams in a form of double jeopardy. What you are saying might be fine if there had been no relegation this time, ie reconstruction, but to deny any club just relegated under the circumstances that occurred the season just finished the right to return under the same circumstances would be more than cruel. So, if next season gets ended abruptly also, where/how do you stop the merry-go-round of unfairly relegated clubs feeling aggrieved and demanding the right to be promoted the following season if  it also gets curtailed and they happen to be at the top ?  What if some other club is top when the random event of curtailment happens ?  The nonsense of this would  just continue.  I'd suggest that should the same disaster befall us next season that it should be set up before the season starts to, either, have the top two clubs promoted, or the top four play off for two promotions with reconstruction then implemented. It has to be something where the clubs relegated now retain the right to gain promotion next season, or, as I say, it is a form of double jeopardy of the cruellest kind (in sporting terms).  It might  appear cruel that way - yes - but what is  "sporting" about picking top 2 or top 4 when the league stops at some random point to engage in a playoff  at some future date ?  Why not just continue and finish the league  when the government give the go-ahead ?  The randomness of enforced shutdown events makes it seem daft to continue the chain of "wrongs" in the hope that it might make a "right" (which it basically never will).   

My thoughts on your post in red, Ally.  👍

[manaliveits105]

8 hours ago, hearts00 said:

Anything over £1m in compensation I would view as a victory here. 
 

The chances of reinstatement must be less than 5% now. 

5 1 % at least 

[gator]

11 minutes ago, gashauskis9 said:

Why do folk think our chances of a positive outcome are getting slimmer the longer this takes?  It’s an arbitration, the panel involved aren’t going to sit down and say “right, the season’s due to start next week so let’s nip this in the bud quick”.  The case will be judged on evidence presented, not external influence from Doncaster and the media. 

I would hope that an independent arbitration board would see through any delay tactics as Lord Clark did when the opposing councils questioned why we didn't bring this case to court sooner, he dismissed that as he understood the failed reconstruction attempts we participated in!

[Aussie Jambo]

54 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Christ, has Shaun Michaels got involved now?!

 

Our ‘DEFENCE’  is as strong as the auld castle ‘ROCK’. 

 

[Riccarton3]

8 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Probably due to the history of the way Scottish football has operated over the last 50 or more years.  

👍

[Nookie Bear]

7 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

At 3:30pm this Friday 17th verdict delivered - full squad briefing light training Saturday & Sunday 18th/19th! Followed by 2 weeks intensive training before 1st game on 1st August!

Just in time to wave off our Dundee Utd friends as they embark on their death march back to Dundee. 

[Beast Boy]

3 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Just in time to wave off our Dundee Utd friends as they embark on their death march back to Dundee. 

The state of the tangerine looking one, that could end up being a bit too literal.

[TheBigO]

10 minutes ago, Aussie Jambo said:

 

Our ‘DEFENCE’  is as strong as the auld castle ‘ROCK’. 

 

It doesn't matter what Doncaster says!

[soonbe110]

7 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

At 3:30pm this Friday 17th verdict delivered - full squad briefing light training Saturday & Sunday 18th/19th! Followed by 2 weeks intensive training before 1st game on 1st August!

If the verdict goes in our favour on Friday we won’t play our first game for at least 6 weeks. Robbie said in interview 6 weeks is minimum time required for pre-season without adverse risk of injuries. 

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

5 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

Also worth bearing mind Ally is that the scope of the LNS tribunal was set by the SFA, therefore prevented him from digging into areas that the SFA would rather he didn't.  You also had Regan getting involved in the tribunal, no doubt to try and influence things.  Campbell Ogilvie was also involved in some capacity, a guy who before taking up his position at the SFA, was the Rangers secretary and himself a beneficiary of the unlawful EBT scheme.  Talk about a conflict of interest!

 

The scope of our Arbitration is set by our petition to the CoS.  It will look into all aspects of our claim, including a lot of documentation that the SPFL seemed very reluctant to release.

 

I'm quietly confident that we will get a favourable outcome of some sort.

 

Great points there, Rob. I'm sure that for most of us, the LNS experience has blighted our opinions of Scottish football's relationship with the law, lawyers and judges, but this time round I see no cause, yet, to doubt the honesty of the panel, though I do have concerns that the nuances of the law, and, perhaps, the wording of the SPFL rules, might see us lose or prevent full restitution.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

47 minutes ago, indianajones said:

Longer the better if anything. 

 

Judge has his expectations from this and was pretty clear he will welcome the case back if he isn't satisfied. 

I can’t imagine we’d welcome it back in any circumstances. We’d presumably need some point of law to argue.

 

Kind of feel that arbitration will be the end of this, one way or the other.

[Sertse]

What's happening now with arbitration? Excuse my ignorance, was away all last week

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Christ, has Shaun Michaels got involved now?!

 

A dyslexic Shaun Michaels? 

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, gashauskis9 said:

Why do folk think our chances of a positive outcome are getting slimmer the longer this takes?  It’s an arbitration, the panel involved aren’t going to sit down and say “right, the season’s due to start next week so let’s nip this in the bud quick”.  The case will be judged on evidence presented, not external influence from Doncaster and the media. 

The league is going to start on 1 August with or without us. We will more than likely accept playing in the Championship with a few million in compensation.

 

Robbie has said as others have quoted that the players need 6 weeks of training before playing so we are not going to be anywhere near ready for the 1 August start.

 

We will be even more unpopular if we force them to wait on us.. Can you imagine the vitriol  dished out by the media if we do this even with the backing of Arbitration.

 

It's the Championship for us hopefully with a decent compensation package and no stop on relegation or promotion for the following season.

[TheBigO]

9 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

A dyslexic Shaun Michaels? 

Heart kid break, yep!

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

11 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

My thoughts on your post in red, Ally.  👍

Cheers LS. While I totally agree that something has to be drawn up to cover a season's curtailment in future, I would suggest any such change must take into account what's happened now (assuming relegation goes ahead) and not deny those clubs the opportunity to gain promotion, at least in the immediate future. I have no real idea of what would be a workable solution, I was coming up with ideas as I wrote, but think, where no club has yet earned promotion, and none yet condemned to relegation, that, say the bottom two from the tier above, and the top four below, would enter, BCD if necessary, played at the earliest point possible, a play off scenario, with advantage given to the higher placed clubs, such as second bottom plays fourth top similar to the way our play offs are carried out now. The last two teams standing would then gain/retain a place in the higher league.

 

I'm not proposing this as the solution, just looking for a way that doesn't block promotion, or condemn a club to unfair relegation, particularly next season when three clubs have been relegated in the very way we agree has to be prevented, but if it were to work then it may well be the answer for each season a league program is cut short.

[Riccarton3]

 

Edit

 

Scottish football scandals no. 854

 

2020 : league board exploits national health pandemic to abuse clubs

Edited July 14, 2020 by Riccarton3

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

9 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

£1 million !!! Barely covers our fees and wouldn’t be any kind of victory. Our chances of reinstatement are exactly the same as they were the day we lodged the petition. The fact that the SPFL are carrying on as if this isn’t happening and the SFA seem to be acting along with them to delay the hearing, and the fixtures are out and the government has confirmed football can start and Sky TV think we’re starting in less than 3 weeks -  all totally irrelevant to the likelihood of reinstatement.

Agreed, and well put, too. 👍

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

5 hours ago, graygo said:

 

I'll say it again, the LNS gig wasn't a tribunal. It was a commission which as you rightly state had it's scope dictated by the SFA.

Completely different and not comparable to our situation.

You can keep saying it, but it doesn't change the original point that it's gerrymandered result has blighted many people's impression of how SFA tribunals are conducted, which is what the original post was about.

[luckydug]

21 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

The league is going to start on 1 August with or without us. We will more than likely accept playing in the Championship with a few million in compensation.

 

Robbie has said as others have quoted that the players need 6 weeks of training before playing so we are not going to be anywhere near ready for the 1 August start.

 

We will be even more unpopular if we force them to wait on us.. Can you imagine the vitriol  dished out by the media if we do this even with the backing of Arbitration.

 

It's the Championship for us hopefully with a decent compensation package and no stop on relegation or promotion for the following season.

If the SPFL lose this case and they have to reinstate us. 

Then any delay is of their own making. 

We would be perfectly entitled to demand a September start. 

We simply can't go into the season without a pre season. 

The rest of the league can play as normal and we can catch up. 

It's not as if we have any European games to worry about. 

 

[jack D and coke]

10 hours ago, busby1985 said:

Interdict. The arbitration will take a few days, maybe even a week. This all seems like delaying tactics to get the new season started before the arbitration starts. 

Of course it is. The whole things has been delay after delay. 
The only thing that happened quickly was the fudged vote. 
We’re getting plums here and everybody should be ready for it. 
Then we’ll get years of shan treatment from officials and the media into the bargain. 
Shafted again and again just doesn’t quite cover it here. 
 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, gashauskis9 said:

Why do folk think our chances of a positive outcome are getting slimmer the longer this takes?  It’s an arbitration, the panel involved aren’t going to sit down and say “right, the season’s due to start next week so let’s nip this in the bud quick”.  The case will be judged on evidence presented, not external influence from Doncaster and the media. 

Are you really expecting honesty, transparency and a fair outcome here? 

1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Probably due to the history of the way Scottish football has operated over the last 50 or more years.  

This is your answer right here. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the SPFL lose this case and they have to reinstate us. 

Then any delay is of their own making. 

We would be perfectly entitled to demand a September start. 

We simply can't go into the season without a pre season. 

The rest of the league can play as normal and we can catch up. 

It's not as if we have any European games to worry about. 

 

Oh come on man. You honestly think we’ll get reinstated? The fixtures are done, the sky schedule is out, this keeps getting kicked down the road, the clubs are begging and you think we might win this?

This is Scotland and scottish football. 
We’re getting another royal shafting here. I reckon we end up paying all costs. 
 

[Jambof3tornado]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

If the verdict goes in our favour on Friday we won’t play our first game for at least 6 weeks. Robbie said in interview 6 weeks is minimum time required for pre-season without adverse risk of injuries. 

Wonder if they'd start the league and just have us play catchup rather than delay the league starting?

[HoGwash]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

If the verdict goes in our favour on Friday we won’t play our first game for at least 6 weeks. Robbie said in interview 6 weeks is minimum time required for pre-season without adverse risk of injuries. 

This post seems at odds with your suggestion that the hearing had been put back a week. How solid is your info on this as it's pretty depressing. 

[JimmyCant]

23 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Are you really expecting honesty, transparency and a fair outcome here? 

This is your answer right here. 

I certainly expect honesty. Transparency maybe not so much because the hearing is private and there may be deals done under the table we don’t get to hear about. A fair outcome ? We might not win that’s for sure, but it will be on legalities rather than fairness. What is fair has already been established.

Edited July 14, 2020 by JimmyCant

[I.T.K]

22 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the SPFL lose this case and they have to reinstate us. 

Then any delay is of their own making. 

We would be perfectly entitled to demand a September start. 

We simply can't go into the season without a pre season. 

The rest of the league can play as normal and we can catch up. 

It's not as if we have any European games to worry about. 

 

 

We dont have European games. But we do have a cup semi. 

 

Also seems unfair that we have to play that game without a preseason.

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

If the verdict goes in our favour on Friday we won’t play our first game for at least 6 weeks. Robbie said in interview 6 weeks is minimum time required for pre-season without adverse risk of injuries. 

What is happening on Friday? Is there any indication there will be an outcome that soon? The CoS took 2 days just to decide whether or not to hear the case. I would have expected at least a couple of weeks for arbitration on the substantive case.

Studying of disclosed documentation, and relevant precedents and law and agreements, examining witnesses, deliberation and agreement of remedies. And their practicality.

Has the tribunal even been appointed yet?

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Doctor FinnBarr]

31 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Oh come on man. You honestly think we’ll get reinstated? The fixtures are done, the sky schedule is out, this keeps getting kicked down the road, the clubs are begging and you think we might win this?

This is Scotland and scottish football. 
We’re getting another royal shafting here. I reckon we end up paying all costs. 
 

 

Aye is the only answer required to your demented ramblings.

[NEWSTAND]

I hope that my instincts are wrong but reinstated to premier league is very unlikely. I think we will get compensation but no where near what we asked for and that will be that. The most galling thing is that these underhand scum bags at the SPL which has been littered with lies and deceit will carry on and nothing changes. Two teams from Glasgow finishing first and second every season with referees     Biased beyond belief and other teams being shafted constantly is just about the pits for me. The only saving grace as I have said in previous comments is that the hearts support will now have a siege mentality and Tynecastle will hopefully become a bear pit again once crowds allowed back in. The media and all these teams who voted against us have no idea what is coming their way as this support is the best in Scotland and we will fight on even harder. FOH subs up in number just shows how much the Hearts fans want to stick it right up Dungman and his cronies. Corruption is rife and thank goodness some matters in the media are put right by Tom English the only one worth listening to. 

[Spellczech]

10 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Without doing an audit of our finances you have no idea what our losses might be. 

Yeah it is the same with players being sold, people just make up a number and post it...

[frankblack]

36 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Oh come on man. You honestly think we’ll get reinstated? The fixtures are done, the sky schedule is out, this keeps getting kicked down the road, the clubs are begging and you think we might win this?

 

None of these are our problem if the judges throw out our expulsion.

 

Quote

This is Scotland and scottish football. 

 

 

Yip - we all know its a laughing stock.

 

Quote

We’re getting another royal shafting here. I reckon we end up paying all costs. 
 

 

We will see - I think the SPFL have royally ****ed up and will get nailed on the documentation we requested.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by frankblack

[luckydug]

17 minutes ago, I.T.K said:

 

We dont have European games. But we do have a cup semi. 

 

Also seems unfair that we have to play that game without a preseason.

 

Any idea when the cup semi final is  ? 

[wavydavy]

45 minutes ago, luckydug said:

If the SPFL lose this case and they have to reinstate us. 

Then any delay is of their own making. 

We would be perfectly entitled to demand a September start. 

We simply can't go into the season without a pre season. 

The rest of the league can play as normal and we can catch up. 

It's not as if we have any European games to worry about. 

 

 

We will soon find out what will happen.

[David McCaig]

20 minutes ago, HoGwash said:

This post seems at odds with your suggestion that the hearing had been put back a week. How solid is your info on this as it's pretty depressing. 

Anything beyond next Monday would be a breach of the arbitration rules as they only have 14 days to convene.

[gnasher75]

I am a bit disappointed that Hearts didn't do more to lobby the Government to allow them to start training at the same time as the rest of the Premiership clubs (elite level).

 

I think we might have had a chance of persuading Lord Clark (or the Government directly) given the question mark over what league we are playing in, the tight timescale and perhaps even the fact we are in the Cup semi finals.

 

I guess we chose not to push this as it would have meant an end to the furlough payments and having to pay the players' wages with no guarantee of any income for another few months.

 

But the fact we won't be ready to play on 1st August (and if we try we could end up really struggling) and that Robbie is being quoted talking about players' chances of being picked for Scotland/NI while in the Championship all makes me think we aren't expecting to win the case or will be happy to accept compensation rather than reinstatement.

[wavydavy]

2 minutes ago, gnasher75 said:

I am a bit disappointed that Hearts didn't do more to lobby the Government to allow them to start training at the same time as the rest of the Premiership clubs (elite level).

 

I think we might have had a chance of persuading Lord Clark (or the Government directly) given the question mark over what league we are playing in, the tight timescale and perhaps even the fact we are in the Cup semi finals.

 

I guess we chose not to push this as it would have meant an end to the furlough payments and having to pay the players' wages with no guarantee of any income for another few months.

 

But the fact we won't be ready to play on 1st August (and if we try we could end up really struggling) and that Robbie is being quoted talking about players' chances of being picked for Scotland/NI while in the Championship all makes me think we aren't expecting to win the case or will be happy to accept compensation rather than reinstatement.

 

This.

[Ribble]

9 hours ago, Forrest said:

I'm pretty sure that if we'd said to Sky: "listen, we want to finish 19/20; your deal stands, but it's going to kick off a couple of months late, and we might even give you sponsorship of a competition at a reduced rate," that Sky wouldn't have brought down Scottish football. There's no way they'd take the reputational risk of being the ones responsible for killing Scottish football. (Directly, anyway!) 

 

I have no doubt in my mind that Sky would have accepted a September/October start with a few extra live games/sponsorship deal as compensation for the delay.