PFA - A National Disgrace?

[busby1985]

The PFA in England have written to all players telling them not to sign anything about reductions or deferrals until they have spoken to the PFA. I get that they have to protect the players but I find it disgusting to see them acting in this way, especially when people on 20k a year are being let go and they are arguing over getting 80k plus a week. 

[highlandjambo3]

How are the PFA funded? Are they like agents? If so then clearly it’s in their interest to give this advice as it will help line their pockets but, as you say, greed on a massive scale.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

The PFA in England have written to all players telling them not to sign anything about reductions or deferrals until they have spoken to the PFA. I get that they have to protect the players but I find it disgusting to see them acting in this way, especially when people on 20k a year are being let go and they are arguing over getting 80k plus a week. 

Maybe they are just looking for some consistency. 

[Mikey1874]

Barcelona and Juventus players just got on with it agreeing substantial cuts.

 

Juventus is 4 months zero pay. 

[busby1985]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Maybe they are just looking for some consistency. 

Potentially. Something about how they’ve acted over the past few weeks has irked me. It sits uneasy with me. 

[davemclaren]

Just now, busby1985 said:

Potentially. Something about how they’ve acted over the past few weeks has irked me. It sits uneasy with me. 

The problem is that we don’t have enough info to really judge imo. 

[John Findlay]

As much as it might grate. The PFA are a union and are doing what any half decent union would do and that's lookout for its members, even if quite a few,are millionaires.

[Kidd’s Boots]

9 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

The PFA in England have written to all players telling them not to sign anything about reductions or deferrals until they have spoken to the PFA. I get that they have to protect the players but I find it disgusting to see them acting in this way, especially when people on 20k a year are being let go and they are arguing over getting 80k plus a week. 

Standard practice in my experience when unionised in the workplace. Which is a bit ironic considering that in football, clubs cannot unilaterally change terms of condition of contracts because each is negotiated individually, but union speaks for all its members when dealing with the club! I really hope that someone in the PFA or PFA Scotland is giving the advice that this is different, this is not administration, this is not going away next month or the one after. Have the hard reality chat with the members, because you can bet every single Chairman that they collectively sit in front of definitely will.

[Victorian]

You could argue that they want to create a consistent settlement across the board but it falls down completely when you realise that each individual club will have it's own financial position.    The PFA could advise players from a range of clubs to seek a particular structure of deferral but some players' clubs may not be in a position to agree to it.

 

When hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs when the lockdown measures started,   they had no choice.    When hundreds of thousands were lucky enough to be furloughed on 80% wages,   there's no obligation on them to suffer the same fate as those who lost their jobs.

 

The lesson here is that the PFA and similar representative bodies in other leagues are assuming power beyond their remit.     They have no moral right to impose an across the board settlement as the circumstances between players and clubs are not equal across the board.

[Mikey1874]

It's also reported that Gordon Taylor the £1 million a year PFA Chairman has demanded to see every clubs' finances/ accounts before agreeing to pay cuts. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

As I have said in all of these threads and I get the unions in ordinary circumstances. 

 

But these are far from ordinary union members in extraordinary circumstances. 

 

Wage caps would work very well for Premier League players 

[Footballfirst]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's also reported that Gordon Taylor the £1 million a year PFA Chairman has demanded to see every clubs' finances/ accounts before agreeing to pay cuts. 

It is now £2m a year for a role that he said he was going to step down from a year ago.

 

The PFA is a lucrative business as it receives a cut of any TV deals.

[Le Chat]

16 minutes ago, Victorian said:

You could argue that they want to create a consistent settlement across the board but it falls down completely when you realise that each individual club will have it's own financial position.    The PFA could advise players from a range of clubs to seek a particular structure of deferral but some players' clubs may not be in a position to agree to it.

 

When hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs when the lockdown measures started,   they had no choice.    When hundreds of thousands were lucky enough to be furloughed on 80% wages,   there's no obligation on them to suffer the same fate as those who lost their jobs.

 

The lesson here is that the PFA and similar representative bodies in other leagues are assuming power beyond their remit.     They have no moral right to impose an across the board settlement as the circumstances between players and clubs are not equal across the board.

 

Exactly.

 

I'd absolutely love to hear why the SPFA think that Hearts can commit to a deferral when they don't know what fecking league were gonna be in when this shitstorm is over.

 

Let's face it, if the season is completed we'll be in the Championship next season which will cost us circa £4M.  How the hell can we then be paying another couple of £M to a bunch of useless parasites who put us there in the first place, for sitting on their hoops?

[Victorian]

How many other unions get to nose around in the accounts of employers?

 

Sounds like the PFA are trying to reinvent themselves as some kind of industry regulator.

[Last Laff]

19 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's also reported that Gordon Taylor the £1 million a year PFA Chairman has demanded to see every clubs' finances/ accounts before agreeing to pay cuts. 

Quite right. 

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

How many other unions get to nose around in the accounts of employers?

 

Sounds like the PFA are trying to reinvent themselves as some kind of industry regulator.

How many other unions are acting on their members agreeing to forfeit millions of pounds? 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Le Chat said:

 

Exactly.

 

I'd absolutely love to hear why the SPFA think that Hearts can commit to a deferral when they don't know what fecking league were gonna be in when this shitstorm is over.

 

Let's face it, if the season is completed we'll be in the Championship next season which will cost us circa £4M.  How the hell can we then be paying another couple of £M to a bunch of useless parasites who put us there in the first place, for sitting on their hoops?

 

I'll be happy enough as long as every parasite has left the club.

[Kidd’s Boots]

35 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

How are the PFA funded? Are they like agents? If so then clearly it’s in their interest to give this advice as it will help line their pockets but, as you say, greed on a massive scale.

Depends which PFA you look at. PFA Enterprises, officially listed at Companies House as activities of a trade union, show poor financial performance in listed accounts for 2018. However the Professional Footballers Association Charity was cash rich to the sum of £44million in unrestricted funds in 2018. All perfectly legal, with donations and legacies totalling £24.7million in that year

[busby1985]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

How many other unions are acting on their members agreeing to forfeit millions of pounds? 

So you have no issue with Spurs binning 500

odd staff into the governments Covid scheme whilst continuing to pay multi million pounds out to its players?

[Victorian]

Just now, Last Laff said:

How many other unions are acting on their members agreeing to forfeit millions of pounds? 

 

How many other comparable events have occured in the history of the developed world and football?

 

This is part of an existential event and can only be solved by lateral thought and moral compromise.

[Last Laff]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

How many other comparable events have occured in the history of the developed world and football?

 

This is part of an existential event and can only be solved by lateral thought and moral compromise.

Compromise has to work both ways though. 

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, busby1985 said:

So you have no issue with Spurs binning 500

odd staff into the governments Covid scheme whilst continuing to pay multi million pounds out to its players?

Where did I say that? 

[Victorian]

Just now, Last Laff said:

Compromise has to work both ways though. 

 

And is.    

 

Our compromise is to keep the club alive so that these players continue to have employment.    

[Kidd’s Boots]

7 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

How many other unions are acting on their members agreeing to forfeit millions of pounds? 

Unite have worked with British Airways to furlough 30,000 cabin and ground crew, separately the pilots union have agreed that 4000 of their members should take a 50% cut for two months. At rough estimates this will save the business of BA millions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52130021

 

[Pasquale for King]

35 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

It's also reported that Gordon Taylor the £1 million a year PFA Chairman has demanded to see every clubs' finances/ accounts before agreeing to pay cuts. 

Try £2.2m in total, he was supposed to step down a year ago.

[busby1985]

12 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Where did I say that? 

Just asking. 

[Last Laff]

13 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

And is.    

 

Our compromise is to keep the club alive so that these players continue to have employment.    

No, that’s a ultimatum to the players. 

[Last Laff]

3 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Just asking. 

👍 I’m in the camp that they should be taking cuts, definitely, but if the pfa want to see the damage before agreeing to this than I find it reasonable. 

[Last Laff]

11 minutes ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

Unite have worked with British Airways to furlough 30,000 cabin and ground crew, separately the pilots union have agreed that 4000 of their members should take a 50% cut for two months. At rough estimates this will save the business of BA millions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52130021

 

They still don’t represent members worth more than footballers.  Also, we have no idea of what they unions asked before agreeing to pay cuts. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

No, that’s a ultimatum to the players. 

 

Erm naw.   Clubs really are having to think about survival.    

[luckydug]

20 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

So you have no issue with Spurs binning 500

odd staff into the governments Covid scheme whilst continuing to pay multi million pounds out to its players?

Just ignore him he just likes to play devil's advocate imo. 

Nobody with any sense of decency can defend the football industry's response to the current crisis. 

[Kidd’s Boots]

Just now, Last Laff said:

They still don’t represent members worth more than footballers.  Also, we have no idea of what they unions asked before agreeing to pay cuts. 

You didn't ask for evidence of unions who represent members who are worth more than footballers, only which unions are asking member to forfeit millions. 

[Cruyff]

I think it's about consistency but as Victorian pointed out, the financial position of each club varies, especially as you go down the levels. 

 

The top clubs take in almost a billion a year in revenues so they pay players accordingly. 

These players are wealthy individuals with millions in the bank and if their clubs in a difficult position, they should voluntarily take a pay cut. They are not working class i.e. if they took a 50% or 100% pay cut, they aren't going to miss mortgage re-payments or anything that will put them under financial duress. 

 

However, there is guys at our level, guys at lower levels who perhaps cannot afford to take a pay cut i.e. would miss mortgage re-payments if their wages were cut. For these guys, I can fully understand why the PFA are protecting their members across the board.

 

Here in lies the problem of fairness. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

9 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

No, that’s a ultimatum to the players. 

How many months do you think the club can afford to pay full wages with next to no income before going into administration?

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

How many months do you think the club can afford to pay full wages with next to no income before going into administration?

Wouldn't waste your time. Laff will just take the contrary position to anything that is said, it's beyond obvious.

[luckydug]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I think it's about consistency but as Victorian pointed out, the financial position of each club varies, especially as you go down the levels. 

 

The top clubs take in almost a billion a year in revenues so they pay players accordingly. 

These players are wealthy individuals with millions in the bank and if their clubs in a difficult position, they should voluntarily take a pay cut. They are not working class i.e. if they took a 50% or 100% pay cut, they aren't going to miss mortgage re-payments or anything that will put them under financial duress. 

 

However, there is guys at our level, guys at lower levels who perhaps cannot afford to take a pay cut i.e. would miss mortgage re-payments if their wages were cut. For these guys, I can fully understand why the PFA are protecting their members across the board.

 

Here in lies the problem of fairness. 

If the Hearts players are earning an average of 2.5k a week a 50% pay cut still leaves them as very well off individuals. 

They would be on a monthly cheque of 5.4k a month. With less tax and NI to pay their deduction would be well under 50%.

Not many people are going to have sympathy for people who earn over five grand a month. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, busby1985 said:

The PFA in England have written to all players telling them not to sign anything about reductions or deferrals until they have spoken to the PFA. I get that they have to protect the players but I find it disgusting to see them acting in this way, especially when people on 20k a year are being let go and they are arguing over getting 80k plus a week. 

There will be some concern for their members but I’m convinced that the PFA in England and Scotland are more worried about being an irrelevance for this. To use Leeds as an example, it reads as if their players agreed a deferral off their own backs (that’s what it sounds like anyway). Which begs the question - what is the point of the PFA?

 

They’re Turkeys and they won’t want players voting for Christmas. The PFA will do everything they can to make sure that they’re seen to be crucial in this. It’s an image thing.

[Kidd’s Boots]

12 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

They still don’t represent members worth more than footballers.  Also, we have no idea of what they unions asked before agreeing to pay cuts. 

Based on average BA cabin/ground crew salary of £38k and average pilot salary of £100k, I estimate that BA's monthly salary liabilities will be around £43million. How many clubs in the U.K. will be in that league?

[jackal]

I think players need to think about what they are asking here. The world is in turmoil with people losing jobs and wondering how they are going to survive yet footballers seem to think they shouldnt have to have any reduction in pay at all. The PFA need to understand the situation also and surely cannot expect players to be paid full wages. As I said before they might not have clubs to play for come the end of this.

[ShedBoy]

Meanwhile Atletico Madrid show everyone how it’s done 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 minute ago, jackal said:

I think players need to think about what they are asking here. The world is in turmoil with people losing jobs and wondering how they are going to survive yet footballers seem to think they shouldnt have to have any reduction in pay at all. The PFA need to understand the situation also and surely cannot expect players to be paid full wages. As I said before they might not have clubs to play for come the end of this.

Look at their piss poor effort through the season. Doubt they’ll give a shit about the club.

[busby1985]

24 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

👍 I’m in the camp that they should be taking cuts, definitely, but if the pfa want to see the damage before agreeing to this than I find it reasonable. 

Fair enough lad. 

[busby1985]

8 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

There will be some concern for their members but I’m convinced that the PFA in England and Scotland are more worried about being an irrelevance for this. To use Leeds as an example, it reads as if their players agreed a deferral off their own backs (that’s what it sounds like anyway). Which begs the question - what is the point of the PFA?

 

They’re Turkeys and they won’t want players voting for Christmas. The PFA will do everything they can to make sure that they’re seen to be crucial in this. It’s an image thing.

Yeah that is also my feeling towards it.

[Taffin]

8 minutes ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

Based on average BA cabin/ground crew salary of £38k and average pilot salary of £100k, I estimate that BA's monthly salary liabilities will be around £43million. How many clubs in the U.K. will be in that league?

 

Doubt that very much.

[Kidd’s Boots]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Doubt that very much.

British Airways pays its employees an average of ₤39,881 a year. Salaries at British Airways range from an average of ₤19,982 to ₤84,138 a year. British Airways employees with the job title Airline Captain make the most with an average annual salary of ₤114,544, while employees with the title Flight Attendant make the least with an average annual salary of ₤17,456.

[Taffin]

Just now, Kidd’s Boots said:

British Airways pays its employees an average of ₤39,881 a year. Salaries at British Airways range from an average of ₤19,982 to ₤84,138 a year. British Airways employees with the job title Airline Captain make the most with an average annual salary of ₤114,544, while employees with the title Flight Attendant make the least with an average annual salary of ₤17,456.

 

Yeh, that's more like it.

[Last Laff]

15 minutes ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

Based on average BA cabin/ground crew salary of £38k and average pilot salary of £100k, I estimate that BA's monthly salary liabilities will be around £43million. How many clubs in the U.K. will be in that league?

We aren’t talking individual clubs though, as a whole, the PFA members in England will be on a lot more, collectively than £43m. 

[Last Laff]

25 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

How many months do you think the club can afford to pay full wages with next to no income before going into administration?

I’ve no idea.  Nobody has.  There’s been no clarification on the matter just a ultimatum.
 

We are two months off the end of the season where a break comes into place from May to Aug regardless. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Last Laff

[Kidd’s Boots]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

We aren’t talking individual clubs though, as a whole, the PFA members in England will be on a lot more, collectively than £43m. 

Can I give a hand moving those goal post?

[Last Laff]

31 minutes ago, Kidd’s Boots said:

You didn't ask for evidence of unions who represent members who are worth more than footballers, only which unions are asking member to forfeit millions. 

Cool.  Fair point.