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Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)


Bunny Munro

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3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Not as vaguely as that ffs. That’s the equivalent of a circular through your door asking if you want to sell your house 

As vaguely as what? What was the exact text compared to what other clubs send?

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26 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

Surely to god it should but then again, this is Ann Budge's Hearts, so **** knows what will happen. 


Sadly true.

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46 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I don't know but let's not allow a chance to kick the club pass eh?


There’s a difference between “the club” (Levein and his pals) and “our club” I suppose 👍

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5 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


There’s a difference between “the club” (Levein and his pals) and “our club” I suppose 👍


Whilst they are at Hearts, they our a part of our club. 

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2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


Whilst they are at Hearts, they our a part of our club. 


It’s their special club I was referring to.  Nobody else.  I know, while they are still robbing our club of much needed funds, they most certainly are, unfortunately. 

Edited by Last Laff
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1 hour ago, Last Laff said:


How about doing plain old fashioned scouting?  At least this coming out now has now made it make sense of how recruitment has been so ****ing shit over the past few years. 
 

“Hi agent, any players you think may be suitable for HMFC”

 

”Yessssssss, we have this Nigerian international that’s just become available” :lol: 

Without the "suitable for Hearts" bit, the conversation could go along these lines

 

Yes Mr Murray, I have a guy called Lionel Messi and another called Cristiano Ronaldo.  I'll contact them and get back to you.

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39 minutes ago, Hearts007 said:

I read that one of them said if they were toiling for money that Tom Farmer would probably lend them a couple of million :wtf:  😆

Having an owner pumping money into Hibs apparently is fine. 

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1 minute ago, Koolkeith said:

Having an owner pumping money into Hibs apparently is fine. 

ex owner..he couldnt wait to get rid

Edited by Hearts007
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Just now, Hearts007 said:

ex owner..he couldnt wait to get rid

I’m including Ron as well. Creaming themselves at the AGM that their wage bill/player budget will be doubled by 2025. 

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Just now, Koolkeith said:

I’m including Ron as well. Creaming themselves at the AGM that their wage bill/player budget will be doubled by 2025. 

👍..lets see if they take same route as us

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26 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


It’s their special club I was referring to.  Nobody else.  I know, while they are still robbing our club of much needed funds, they most certainly are, unfortunately. 


When Levein leaves Hearts, I’ll still always associate him with my club tbh. He’s part of Hearts and I’ll remember his good times more than his bad. I actually think there’s a fair old amount of hysterics about the guy, and I think it’s a shame that it’s come to that. 

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Footballfirst
4 hours ago, OTT said:

The email is terrible optics, but lets not kid ourselves every club will be looking towards planning for next season. 

 

Budge really needs to review where this leak is coming from and plug it. We're getting the boot properly stuck in from the press. 

 

Also, its probably a decent pretext to get rid of Murray finally. His recruitment record reads like a horror story. Cannot continue to allow this man to waste hundreds of thousands of pounds every year with impunity. 

Do you have a list of signings that were made on Murray's recommendations to compare with those recommended by Levein, MacPhee, Cathro and any others?

 

From what I've heard from people who are closer to the club than myself, Murray's recommendations, on who to sign or not to sign, have been frequently ignored by those in charge of the football department. That in itself begs the question of why he is still there, if his judgement is not trusted, or that they have faith in their own assessment capabilities.

 

Ultimately, it's not the scouts who sign players, it's the coaches and the DOF.

 

 

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Clerry Jambo
33 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


When Levein leaves Hearts, I’ll still always associate him with my club tbh. He’s part of Hearts and I’ll remember his good times more than his bad. I actually think there’s a fair old amount of hysterics about the guy, and I think it’s a shame that it’s come to that. 

Yip agree with that although I have been disappointed in him not leaving earlier hanging about like a bad smell. 

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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Not as vaguely as that ffs. That’s the equivalent of a circular through your door asking if you want to sell your house 

 

5 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


Don’t think anyone forced Preston to circulate the email though, tbf.

Does it even exist? 

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4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Do you have a list of signings that were made on Murray's recommendations to compare with those recommended by Levein, MacPhee, Cathro and any others?

 

From what I've heard from people who are closer to the club than myself, Murray's recommendations, on who to sign or not to sign, have been frequently ignored by those in charge of the football department. That in itself begs the question of why he is still there, if his judgement is not trusted, or that they have faith in their own assessment capabilities.

 

Ultimately, it's not the scouts who sign players, it's the coaches and the DOF.

 

 

 

Paul McCallum was definitely one, but ultimately, without being John Murray there is no way to know for sure. 

 

I'm sure we could work down the ones which are 100% not him - Northern Irish lads, Martin & Esmael, Stendels guys but I think its fair to hold the Head of Recruitment accountable for the poor recruitment. Its likely not absolute (i.e its highly likely that he has been ignored at points, but its equally also likely he has carried out the scouting work on many of the players too). Our most successful players have been youngsters who have already been here (Walker, Paterson, Nicholson), the northern irish lads, plus Sow (recommended by Alexander). Are there any success stories which can be linked directly to Murray?

 

Our recruitment has been dire for a long time and a change should have been made a long time ago IMO. Although, as you say if his judgement wasn't trusted by Levein, why the hell were we wasting a salary on him? 

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7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Do you have a list of signings that were made on Murray's recommendations to compare with those recommended by Levein, MacPhee, Cathro and any others?

 

From what I've heard from people who are closer to the club than myself, Murray's recommendations, on who to sign or not to sign, have been frequently ignored by those in charge of the football department. That in itself begs the question of why he is still there, if his judgement is not trusted, or that they have faith in their own assessment capabilities.

 

Ultimately, it's not the scouts who sign players, it's the coaches and the DOF.

 

 

I have heard similar but then it’s a fairly speculative business and no doubt there are several people at every club with views on who should and shouldn’t be signed. Chief scouts role used to be to manage a scouting network that developed a short list of suitable players for managers to review and decide. With the advent of travel, agents, video, tv football volume etc it’s a much wider pool of ‘talent’ that has to be reviewed. I’m sure every scout gets it right and wrong, but more wrong than right I suspect. Managers will have a similar hit rate so no surprise that most clubs hiring fails to work out. You just have to look at Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U etc to see that even the clubs with most money only see about 10-20% of their signings becoming established first team players. 

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47 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


When Levein leaves Hearts, I’ll still always associate him with my club tbh. He’s part of Hearts and I’ll remember his good times more than his bad. I actually think there’s a fair old amount of hysterics about the guy, and I think it’s a shame that it’s come to that. 


Yeah, I will also tbf.  I was talking in particular about that specific group and how they’ve worked over the last four years and not at the club completely. I’m probably not getting my view across rightly though. 

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19 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Do you have a list of signings that were made on Murray's recommendations to compare with those recommended by Levein, MacPhee, Cathro and any others?

 

From what I've heard from people who are closer to the club than myself, Murray's recommendations, on who to sign or not to sign, have been frequently ignored by those in charge of the football department. That in itself begs the question of why he is still there, if his judgement is not trusted, or that they have faith in their own assessment capabilities.

 

Ultimately, it's not the scouts who sign players, it's the coaches and the DOF.

 

 


Then what’s the actual point in employing Murray so long then if he’s just ignored?  Why even send an email out for the club either if he’s just ignored regardless? 

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10 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Paul McCallum was definitely one, but ultimately, without being John Murray there is no way to know for sure. 

 

I'm sure we could work down the ones which are 100% not him - Northern Irish lads, Martin & Esmael, Stendels guys but I think its fair to hold the Head of Recruitment accountable for the poor recruitment. Its likely not absolute (i.e its highly likely that he has been ignored at points, but its equally also likely he has carried out the scouting work on many of the players too). Our most successful players have been youngsters who have already been here (Walker, Paterson, Nicholson), the northern irish lads, plus Sow (recommended by Alexander). Are there any success stories which can be linked directly to Murray?

 

Our recruitment has been dire for a long time and a change should have been made a long time ago IMO. Although, as you say if his judgement wasn't trusted by Levein, why the hell were we wasting a salary on him? 

Interesting in those you mentioned in second sentence as not being his - only Smith has really been a success so far, maybe Ismael as well. It’s not just Murray that makes dodgy hiring recommendations. 

Edited by soonbe110
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Just now, soonbe110 said:

Interesting in those you mentioned in first sentence as not being his - only Smith has really been a success so far, maybe Ismael as well. It’s not just Murray that makes dodgy hiring recommendations. 


It’s the whole shebang, all they people with involvement in player recruitment and so many complete disasters. 

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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Not as vaguely as that ffs. That’s the equivalent of a circular through your door asking if you want to sell your house 

Ah, so you're still here.

You never quite got round to answer my question(s) re your "dark ages" assertion.  I've reproduced them below for you.

 

Hearts do use Wyscout and have been criticised on here for that.

What other tools should we use and how do you know we are not using them?

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Footballfirst
5 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Paul McCallum was definitely one, but ultimately, without being John Murray there is no way to know for sure. 

 

I'm sure we could work down the ones which are 100% not him - Northern Irish lads, Martin & Esmael, Stendels guys but I think its fair to hold the Head of Recruitment accountable for the poor recruitment. Its likely not absolute (i.e its highly likely that he has been ignored at points, but its equally also likely he has carried out the scouting work on many of the players too). Our most successful players have been youngsters who have already been here (Walker, Paterson, Nicholson), the northern irish lads, plus Sow (recommended by Alexander). Are there any success stories which can be linked directly to Murray?

 

Our recruitment has been dire for a long time and a change should have been made a long time ago IMO. Although, as you say if his judgement wasn't trusted by Levein, why the hell were we wasting a salary on him? 

All those who were at the academy prior to Roger Arnott being appointed, including those you named, came in when John Murray was still Academy Director and had a final say on recruitment there.

 

I'm certain that he has had several recommendations accepted that proved not to be up to the job, but I don't think that it is as black and white as "his recruitment reads like a horror story" as you suggested earlier.

 

I understand that he recommended Eamon Brophy before he joined Kilmarnock, but was knocked back. I was told that he would have taken Liam Boyce "at a push", but none of the others signed in January.

 

 

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Pasquale for King
5 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Yes, it was a pretty straightforward statement she made. Loss of income from four remaining home league games and the cup semi-final together with all normal non-football income drying up means we will be short of cash in April. The club costs £1.2m  per month to run roughly. Not sure how anyone doesn’t get that. Those revenue items would have taken us through to end April cash flow wise. Normally season ticket sales would be about to start around that time so cash wise the club would have been healthy. Clearly the longer the football authorities dither then these are not going on sale. 
Not sure how a simple statement re April’s cash flow became the signal for the widespread media rush that we are bust and going into Admin again. When it comes to finance in football it’s pretty clear that the media’s finance reporters and not football pundits are the ones who should be listened to. Stewart, McManus, Patullo, Boyd, Leckie et al have proven time after time that their financial knowledge is extremely limited. 

Good post 👍🏽

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
2 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Ah, so you're still here.

You never quite got round to answer my question(s) re your "dark ages" assertion.  I've reproduced them below for you.

 

Hearts do use Wyscout and have been criticised on here for that.

What other tools should we use and how do you know we are not using them?


not been criticised by me. Most clubs use Wyscout. But this email doesn’t suggest much use of Wyscout.

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3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


not been criticised by me. Most clubs use Wyscout. But this email doesn’t suggest much use of Wyscout.

Don't try to be so slippery.

You said, a few hours ago that our scouting was "in the dark ages" and then suggested we should try Wyscout

 

Hearts do use Wyscout and have been criticised on here for that.

What other tools should we use and how do you know we are not using them?

 

So can you clarify (or wirhdraw) your dark ages assertion and answer my question as highlighted.

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gowestjambo
1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


When Levein leaves Hearts, I’ll still always associate him with my club tbh. He’s part of Hearts and I’ll remember his good times more than his bad. I actually think there’s a fair old amount of hysterics about the guy, and I think it’s a shame that it’s come to that. 

 

His good times (which at the time were very good), pale into insignificance when compared to the last few years. In fact the comparison is not worth making.

 

There is no question he was as as good as Alan Hansen prior to his injury, however, his influence benefiting the team compared to the damage he has done is a no brainer.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


not been criticised by me. Most clubs use Wyscout. But this email doesn’t suggest much use of Wyscout.


Please stop quoting rent-a-question cheers 👍

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1 hour ago, gowestjambo said:

 

His good times (which at the time were very good), pale into insignificance when compared to the last few years. In fact the comparison is not worth making.

 

There is no question he was as as good as Alan Hansen prior to his injury, however, his influence benefiting the team compared to the damage he has done is a no brainer.

 

 


That’s great. You get on with that chief. I’ll remember the many good times. 

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jambostuart
3 hours ago, 1971fozzy said:


not Hibs though according to their deluded support 😂😂😂 
cant wait for Dempster to announce it

 

They'll claim in years to come it was a Hibs "first"

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

Don't try to be so slippery.

You said, a few hours ago that our scouting was "in the dark ages" and then suggested we should try Wyscout

 

Hearts do use Wyscout and have been criticised on here for that.

What other tools should we use and how do you know we are not using them?

 

So can you clarify (or wirhdraw) your dark ages assertion and answer my question as highlighted.


What part of ‘have you got any good players” involves Wyscout?

 

PS - you would defend Hitler.

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1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

All those who were at the academy prior to Roger Arnott being appointed, including those you named, came in when John Murray was still Academy Director and had a final say on recruitment there.

 

I'm certain that he has had several recommendations accepted that proved not to be up to the job, but I don't think that it is as black and white as "his recruitment reads like a horror story" as you suggested earlier.

 

I understand that he recommended Eamon Brophy before he joined Kilmarnock, but was knocked back. I was told that he would have taken Liam Boyce "at a push", but none of the others signed in January.

 

 

He was all over the country, UK, for days on end in January but couldn’t get targets to sign on due to our league position. 

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Unknown user
23 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


What part of ‘have you got any good players” involves Wyscout?

 

PS - you would defend Hitler.

The part where we get a list of realistic potential targets that we can run through wyscout?

 

How do you suggest we find out which players want to move on from their clubs while still in contract, which players have been told they're no longer needed, which might be in our financial league and interested when we're not allowed to speak to contracted players?

 

This is how it works, clubs have mulripronged approaches, including approaching agents.

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34 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


What part of ‘have you got any good players” involves Wyscout?

 

PS - you would defend Hitler.

So you run away from a direct question.

Sounds like you're just slavering a lot of tripe you can't explain or defend.

Well caught out, eh?

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9 hours ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

According to McAnus, we can't compare these teams situations to the one Hearts are in.

Waited to see developments and now we have many teams in different countries following Hearts lead all be it in various guises. Suggestions the floodgates could very well open in the days to come.

Suggest response to McAnus -   WPOFODYU?

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53 minutes ago, Captain Canada said:

Looks like the majority of players are going to refuse a cut and insist on a deferral as per Birmingham City. 

Birmingham City have asked their players to take wage deferrals because of the coronavirus pandemic.

Those earning more than £6,000 per week have been asked to accept a 50% cut for the next four months by the club - the first to do so in the Championship.

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1 hour ago, Captain Canada said:

Looks like the majority of players are going to refuse a cut and insist on a deferral as per Birmingham City. 


Can’t blame them for doing so. 

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Jambo 4 Ever
1 hour ago, Captain Canada said:

Looks like the majority of players are going to refuse a cut and insist on a deferral as per Birmingham City. 

Poor show from the higher earners

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6 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

Poor show from the higher earners


Not really.  They will also have mortgages and car payments to take into account.  If it was being paid back eventually (within 12 months) then I would agree with you. 

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Jambo 4 Ever
16 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


Not really.  They will also have mortgages and car payments to take into account.  If it was being paid back eventually (within 12 months) then I would agree with you. 

They can take a mortgage holiday for 3 months if need be 

 

or sell their fancy cars 

Edited by Natural Orders
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12 minutes ago, Natural Orders said:

They can take a mortgage holiday for 3 months if need be 

 

or sell their fancy cars 


Is it a three month agreement on half pay?

 

Why should they also sell their cars and go on half wages when they got sold to come to the club on them? They are human beings also and will want most importantly the best for them or their families and not a football club that happened to pay more money than they could get elsewhere.  
 

Try telling Liam Boyce he should cut his wages in two a few months into a three year deal.  He’s probably moved his family against their wishes up to Scotland mid season because the money was great, he goes back to his family and tells them he’s now taken a pay cut when he turned down numerous other clubs to come to hearts?

 

Player loyalty towards clubs went away a long time ago.  It’s a very short career if players don’t have many more skills than being a footballer also.  They need to make as much money probably for a lifetime in a small period of time. 

Edited by Last Laff
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7 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


Is it a three month agreement on half pay?

 

Why should they also sell their cars and go on half wages when they got sold to come to the club on them? They are human beings also and will want most importantly the best for them or their families and not a football club that happened to pay more money than they could get elsewhere.  
 

Try telling Liam Boyce he should cut his wages in two a few months into a three year deal.  He’s probably moved his family against their wishes up to Scotland mid season because the money was great, he goes back to his family and tells them he’s now taken a pay cut when he turned down numerous other clubs to come to hearts?

 

Player loyalty towards clubs went away a long time ago.  It’s a very short career if players don’t have many more skills than being a footballer also.  They need to make as much money probably for a lifetime in a small period of time. 

The one clear thing from your opening paragraph is that you haven't a clue what the true situation is when you have to ask a question.

Firstly it is a request to take half pay from next month which if accepted it would mean a reduction in take home pay of something maybe around 25% - 30%*.  F.or example, if someone earns £4k per week their gross pay will be halved but they'll save £900 per week in tax alone.

The second thing is that if everyone refuses the offer and this shutdown goes on for too long they'll get a 100% reduction in their pay.  That's because they will be made redundant as the club (any club) could only go on for so long paying out wages with no money coming in - unless you have some wonderful solution.

 

*PS - Hope my arithmetic is right as I haven't bothered to calculate any reduction in Nat Ins..

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4 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

The one clear thing from your opening paragraph is that you haven't a clue what the true situation is when you have to ask a question.

Firstly it is a request to take half pay from next month which if accepted it would mean a reduction in take home pay of something maybe around 25% - 30%*.  F.or example, if someone earns £4k per week their gross pay will be halved but they'll save £900 per week in tax alone.

The second thing is that if everyone refuses the offer and this shutdown goes on for too long they'll get a 100% reduction in their pay.  That's because they will be made redundant as the club (any club) could only go on for so long paying out wages with no money coming in - unless you have some wonderful solution.

 

*PS - Hope my arithmetic is right as I haven't bothered to calculate any reduction in Nat Ins..

You are right, it is merely a request. 

 

The players who are under contract - legally Hearts cannot force them to take a pay cut, nor can they tear up their contracts if they do not agree without paying up those contracts in full or negotiating a settlement. 

 

It is entirely voluntary. 

 

The only way Hearts can probably make players redundant or release them is if we file for voluntary administration. 

 

Perhaps some Hearts players cannot afford to take pay cuts because they are committed to mortgages etc.. and would be unable to pay.

 

I can understand their predicament but I think it is probably a neccessity that we make this request. 

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43 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

The one clear thing from your opening paragraph is that you haven't a clue what the true situation is when you have to ask a question.

Firstly it is a request to take half pay from next month which if accepted it would mean a reduction in take home pay of something maybe around 25% - 30%*.  F.or example, if someone earns £4k per week their gross pay will be halved but they'll save £900 per week in tax alone.

The second thing is that if everyone refuses the offer and this shutdown goes on for too long they'll get a 100% reduction in their pay.  That's because they will be made redundant as the club (any club) could only go on for so long paying out wages with no money coming in - unless you have some wonderful solution.

 

*PS - Hope my arithmetic is right as I haven't bothered to calculate any reduction in Nat Ins..


I was being sarcastic to the poster.  You surely aren’t so thick to think I was asking him a legit question :lol: 

 

The rest is irony overload, you ask questions and alternatives every single day on this forum pal. 
 

So it’s a request with a little part of blackmail? The players and staff that have been asked of this request should be given the decency of being advised of the true potential of the severity, just in case your complete guess work is correct.

 

They could also be made redundant if it goes on for so long regardless of being asked to take a wage cut of 50% of their annual income before tax. 
 

Would you take a 50% cut of your annual pay on the say so you might be redundant in a few months (how many nobody knows)? When you could be that amazing at asking questions or acting like a tit that another company may take you on if your company (if your work, sorry) isn’t transparent? 
 

Any idea Al, if the club has been fully transparent of the severity of the situation if they don’t take a pay cut or are you just completely guessing there may be redundancies? 

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31 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

You are right, it is merely a request. 

 

The players who are under contract - legally Hearts cannot force them to take a pay cut, nor can they tear up their contracts if they do not agree without paying up those contracts in full or negotiating a settlement. 

 

It is entirely voluntary. 

 

The only way Hearts can probably make players redundant or release them is if we file for voluntary administration. 

 

Perhaps some Hearts players cannot afford to take pay cuts because they are committed to mortgages etc.. and would be unable to pay.

 

I can understand their predicament but I think it is probably a neccessity that we make this request. 


Wholeheartedly agree. 

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Unknown user
3 hours ago, Captain Canada said:

Looks like the majority of players are going to refuse a cut and insist on a deferral as per Birmingham City. 

Fair enough, I believe article 12 means they can be let go without anything though 

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9 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Back to 1914 with Heart of Midlothian leading the way for football. 

Great Post 👍

Edited by Jambotommy
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7 hours ago, JohnB said:

Birmingham City have asked their players to take wage deferrals because of the coronavirus pandemic.

Those earning more than £6,000 per week have been asked to accept a 50% cut for the next four months by the club - the first to do so in the Championship.

 

Bayern and Dortmund, 2 of the biggest clubs in Germany have asked their players to take a pay cut too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52036612

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A_A wehatethehibs
9 minutes ago, Marvin said:

 

Bayern and Dortmund, 2 of the biggest clubs in Germany have asked their players to take a pay cut too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52036612


Has Tam McManus been approached for comment on this? We’re all interested to know exactly what he’d have done if he were a player when the coronavirus wiped out football. 

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