They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[JJ93]

1 hour ago, annushorribilis III said:

You don't know that. 

 

I'd bet my company on it. I'm a lawyer and this would never be acceptable in practice.

[JJ93]

1 hour ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

If its there, they've participated so by de facto have signed up to it.

Interesting to find some link confirming if season percentage (minimum games) is included

Not the case (if not agreed to either by conduct or in writing).

[i8hibsh]

Us in a fight off for the bottom split would relegate us anyway.  Our only way to survive this is a null and void.  How utterly depressing is that but it sadly sums up the 'Budge era' on the park.

[Ainsley Harriott]

Imagine the seeth from the Hobos if we avoid relegation due to Corona 

[HighTimes]

58 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

There's so many reasons why this just wont happen

 

Other than the four OF games - and there are plenty of ways to keep them under a new system - what are the other reasons?

[annushorribilis III]

12 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

I'd bet my company on it. I'm a lawyer and this would never be acceptable in practice.

 

 

From your perspective : it'd be interesting to see Hearts going to court asking  to overturn  a decision that they as a member of the ruling body would have had a hand in just because it didn't suit them. 

 

If it goes to a vote and the outcome is Hearts get relegated (not that I'm saying it will happen), why is that actionable ? The clubs have had a vote , followed due process , Hearts are part of that process , so where's the issue ? 

Edited March 13, 2020 by annushorribilis III

[JimmyCant]

57 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Were not German though.

I'd be very surprised if this happened in Scotland

League reconstruction requires a full season of notice under UEFA rules. Could be waived in circumstances like this is suppose

[Poseidon]

Keep seeing mention on no down, 2 up Dundee Utd, ICT) based on current league position. How is that fair on Ayr and Dundee who currently have a chance of going up? 

 

Least amount of legal challenges would come from completely voiding the season IMO.

[Ribble]

2 hours ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

If its there, they've participated so by de facto have signed up to it.

Interesting to find some link confirming if season percentage (minimum games) is included

 

As far as i'm aware the league in scotland has only been suspended once (for WW2) so doubt it would have been something seen to be needed in the rule book. In that case the league was stopped after 5 games and then totally restarted after the war with the only changes to who was in the league being down to which clubs could compete, there was a reduction of 20 teams to 16 in the top flight (or A league as it was) and no promotion for teams previously in the second tier.

[Poseidon]

10 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

 

 

From your perspective : it'd be interesting to see Hearts going to court asking  to overturn  a decision that they as a member of the ruling body would have had a hand in just because it didn't suit them. 

 

If it goes to a vote and the outcome is Hearts get relegated (not that I'm saying it will happen), why is that actionable ? The clubs have had a vote , followed due process , Hearts are part of that process , so where's the issue ? 

Surely legal challenges from every team in current relegation place as well as playoff (to go up) position?

[Five to One]

45 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

If Falkirk can be denied promotion due to their stadium then surely an incomplete season is far greater grounds for denying promotion. 

 

I suspect what will happen is that whenever football starts again, this season will be finished off. Player contracts could however cause a problem here...

 

In that instance, which league do Hearts financially plan for being in? There won't be football again, any time soon. 

 

 

[Five to One]

47 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

It is certainly a challenge to determine the correct way through.

Its naive to think the games will recommence early April as well

 

Correct. I think the more relevant question is could next season be impacted by the outbreak. 

[annushorribilis III]

8 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Surely legal challenges from every team in current relegation place as well as playoff (to go up) position?

I did think of that but thought I'd keep it simple. 

[annushorribilis III]

10 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Surely legal challenges from every team in current relegation place as well as playoff (to go up) position?

I know it's just speculation  but if it goes to a vote of all member clubs (say, to accept ALL league standings as is ) , how can member clubs go to court just because they didn't like the outcome ? That's my basic point but I'm not a lawyer so it'll be interesting to see if there's a response on the thread. 

 

I would not be surprised if there is an obscure reg which allows the SPFL extraordinary powers in exceptional circumstances, but time will tell. 

[JackLadd]

It has to go to closed doors after this month off, if they don't there will be insane chaos. 

[netherleejambo]

Each of the remaining games will be held as penalty shoot outs behind closed doors with 11 players taking a penalty - team that scores the most wins or a draw if they score the same.

(I hope nobody from the SPFL reads this thread)

[Five to One]

3 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

It has to go to closed doors after this month off, if they don't there will be insane chaos. 

 

Are closed doors games financially viable in Scotland? Appears to be a lot of speculation about this. 

[annushorribilis III]

Just now, Five to One said:

 

Are closed doors games financially viable in Scotland? Appears to be a lot of speculation about this. 

Listening to a rep from a lower league club in England on 5Live this morning : it's a disaster for clubs everywhere. Aside from closed door games, he mentioned how clubs make a lot of money from banqueting, hosting various corporate events, conferencing  etc which will be lost. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

3 hours ago, Walter Bishop said:

Promote two teams from each league and bring two into League 2 from pyramid. 

 

SPFL next season has 14 teams, Split into two 7s after 2 rounds = 26 games played then play each other twice, a further 12 games. Total games played 38.  

If they can’t relegate teams on the technicality that it’s unfair because the season isn’t finished, how could they promote teams? Surely the same argument applies?  Looking at our Championship, if say only 2 go up, I’d imagine Dundee and Ayr would have a lot to say if they get overlooked when only 4 and 5 points behind ICT with 9 games to go.

[Captain Canada]

Stevie G vs Lennon at boxing to decide the title.

 

Dance-off between Stendel and Neilson to see which team plays in the top flight next season. 

[baxterd1974]

2 hours ago, Paolo said:

You cannot say it is legally wrong for one, but not the other.  

Actually you can.

 

If the rule is "Upon completion of all games..." Then neither relegation or promotion should happen as neither have been concluded.

 

That's not my view BTW I am in favour of the 14 team league approach (although that will still need a play off).

[Spellczech]

21 minutes ago, Five to One said:

 

In that instance, which league do Hearts financially plan for being in? There won't be football again, any time soon. 

 

 

The Govt has not stopped football, the FA and SFA have...

 

Our Govt, for all its talk of "delay" appears to be taking the approach that most everyone is going to catch Coronavirus so we may as well let all the young and healthy people gather and catch it, then we will reach the magic 60% where societal immunity results in fewer carriers/infectors. What they should be doing is telling all the old and infirm to lock themselves down and telling everyone else to congregate, if they want to folllow this policy, but...PR-wise they cannot say this.

 

How long will football be stopped for? Who knows TBH...1mth, 2 mth 5 mth, longer?

 

Businesses have to plan for different scenarios. At the moment everything is unclear. Since the SFA has unilaterally stopped football, it is up to them to provide the clubs with the necessary clarity. I suspect they are currently just a bunch of frightened old men WFH this Friday...

 

[heartsfc_fan]

32 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Keep seeing mention on no down, 2 up Dundee Utd, ICT) based on current league position. How is that fair on Ayr and Dundee who currently have a chance of going up? 

 

Least amount of legal challenges would come from completely voiding the season IMO.

Ayr and Dundee could play off in a one off game and the winner plays ICT to see who goes up?

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, baxterd1974 said:

Actually you can.

 

If the rule is "Upon completion of all games..." Then neither relegation or promotion should happen as neither have been concluded.

 

That's not my view BTW I am in favour of the 14 team league approach (although that will still need a play off).

How would a 14 team league work with a split though?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I’m not being funny but they’ll just finish the season late. The euros are getting postponed.

[baxterd1974]

5 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

How would a 14 team league work with a split though?

One idea someone posted earlier was 2 x games, split 7/7, 2 x games. Gives a total of 32 games

[Poseidon]

11 minutes ago, heartsfc_fan said:

Ayr and Dundee could play off in a one off game and the winner plays ICT to see who goes up?

It's more when they'd fit that in

[whodanny]

37 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

It has to go to closed doors after this month off, if they don't there will be insane chaos. 

But it's not just a month off, it's an indefinite suspension of football in Scotland. That could mean there are no games played for several months.

[1953]

I actually think it's reasonable to just call things the way they stand just now. We are after all, dealing with an unprecedented situation, and if as reported the peak won't happen until June , goodness knows when the outstanding games would get played. 

[Five to One]

18 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’m not being funny but they’ll just finish the season late. The euros are getting postponed.

How late is late? 

[Five to One]

Just now, 1953 said:

I actually think it's reasonable to just call things the way they stand just now. We are after all, dealing with an unprecedented situation, and if as reported the peak won't happen until June , goodness knows when the outstanding games would get played. 

And how is that preserving sporting integrity with 8 (or 9 for some) games still to be played?

[portobellojambo1]

3 hours ago, Walter Bishop said:

There was someone on twitter last night saying there is a rule in place that once 30 games were played they league positions would stand. This weekend completes 30 games played for all teams. (St Johnstone and Rangers on 29) 

 

 

 

No idea if that is true or not, but I did hear a discussion on Sky about the English Premiership and they were talking about 75% of the games having been played would play a part. In the SPL's case, if no further games are played then they cannot declare it as is as not all will have completed 30 games.

 

I think there are probably two choices, and both could be situation in which lawyers could become involved. While it is all being done for health reasons the one thing that, unfortunately, drives the human race is money or rather the potential loss of money in this case. If they declare the league null and void some will be upset, if they wind everything up based on present league positions others will be disappointed. If they decide to continue competiitons to a finish when will that be.

[JJ93]

1 hour ago, annushorribilis III said:

 

 

From your perspective : it'd be interesting to see Hearts going to court asking  to overturn  a decision that they as a member of the ruling body would have had a hand in just because it didn't suit them. 

 

If it goes to a vote and the outcome is Hearts get relegated (not that I'm saying it will happen), why is that actionable ? The clubs have had a vote , followed due process , Hearts are part of that process , so where's the issue ? 

Re your first para: you are presupposing that there is a rule saying that after 30 games if something happens the SPFL can end the league and crown champions/relegate etc based on league standing; and also that all SPFL clubs have agreed to that either by written agreement or conduct (the latter would be subject to dispute depending on the facts).

 

If there is an agreement that the above-mentioned happens by the SPFL but no clubs have signed it (meaning it was just added to the rules and we all continued as normal) then they'd argue that all clubs' continuation to play football was acceptance of this new term by conduct but that is legally contestable (rightly or wrongly) on the grounds that it could be an onerous term which gave clubs little to no reaslistic prospect of saying no if they wanted to continue to play football in Scotland. Agreeable or not - that would be the legal argument.

 

Re your second para: I doubt it would go to a vote of clubs but if it did yes still actionable unless we have explicilty agreed to this procedure in writing for this purpose.

[1953]

3 minutes ago, Five to One said:

And how is that preserving sporting integrity with 8 (or 9 for some) games still to be played?

It isn't, it's just a scenario that I think would be reasonable given the unique situation that we are all in. Nothing will be perfect.

[JJ93]

Might I also add that continued postponment of the season creates a huge problem when we consider the contracts of all staff (players and managers specifically).

 

I can't see an "indefinite postponment" lasting. I think the season will be finished soon because of financial reasons (SPFL already saying that there's no money for behind closed doors games, as you'd imagine) and the above reason.

[JamboAndrew]

3 hours ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

By the same token if they stopped the leagues now Dundee Utd would have a major grouse.  There is no easy solution here and i an sure that the GFA will find the most stupid solution, the one thats suits the bum cheekd best.

 

Biggest issue for me is that Shankland thread would just grow and grow if he banged them in in the championship for another season.

[SectionDJambo]

Let’s say that this suspension lasts until April. Then games get played, obviously a month behind, with the possibility of still no spectators. How to clubs survive financially, particularly the ones who can’t sell season tickets due to not knowing which division they’ll be in next season?

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

10 minutes ago, Five to One said:

How late is late? 

That's the issue, it then starts to effect breaks before next season, some very big, huge decisions to be made

 

Good to get Celtics views though

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51875701

[Victorian]

The peak of infection is many weeks away and infections will continue through to August and probably beyond.    Especially when international travel returns to near normality.    Transmissions of this virus could easily impact on games next season,  never mind this one.    There is ZERO prospect of this season's games being completed later on.    This season is over.

 

The best clubs can get from authorities is clarity.    Taking decisions that inevitably lead to legal challenges deny that clarity.     Taking a pragmatic decision very soon that would placate the maximum number of stakeholders will provide clarity and maximise the time for clubs to plan and mitigate their finances.

 

There's only one credible option.   No relegation and a reconstruction to 14 or 16 teams.    

[Hairdryer]

To relegate a team with 24 points to play for would be unfair and

i am not just saying this as a Hearts fan my suggestion would be

hopefully restart all leagues in the summer and have a shorter season 

for 20/21 with each team playing twice

[Bongo 1874]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The peak of infection is many weeks away and infections will continue through to August and probably beyond.    Especially when international travel returns to near normality.    Transmissions of this virus could easily impact on games next season,  never mind this one.    There is ZERO prospect of this season's games being completed later on.    This season is over.

 

The best clubs can get from authorities is clarity.    Taking decisions that inevitably lead to legal challenges deny that clarity.     Taking a pragmatic decision very soon that would placate the maximum number of stakeholders will provide clarity and maximise the time for clubs to plan and mitigate their finances.

 

There's only one credible option.   No relegation and a reconstruction to 14 or 16 teams.    

Spot on 👍. 

[E3OBE]

1 hour ago, Poseidon said:

Keep seeing mention on no down, 2 up Dundee Utd, ICT) based on current league position. How is that fair on Ayr and Dundee who currently have a chance of going up? 

 

Least amount of legal challenges would come from completely voiding the season IMO.

 

This is what the Germans are proposing. The 2 teams currently placed in 1st & 2nd will be promoted from Bundesliga 2 to make the league 20 teams (instead of the current 18) with 4 teams getting relegated at the end of next season to realign the leagues back to 18 teams.

[Jambof3tornado]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

It has to go to closed doors after this month off, if they don't there will be insane chaos. 

Closed doors is all well and good unless players catch it or show signs and you have to self isolate.

 

Cut it down to 5 a sides??

[Jambof3tornado]

Be good for scottish football to embrace this as an opportunity for change league setup wise.

 

But it wont happen with donkey in charge.

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, brunoatemyhamster said:

Just make it a 12 team top tier. 

Even for a couple of years. 

Everyone happy

 

 

😁😁

[Bazzas right boot]

25 minutes ago, portobellojambo1 said:

 

No idea if that is true or not, but I did hear a discussion on Sky about the English Premiership and they were talking about 75% of the games having been played would play a part. In the SPL's case, if no further games are played then they cannot declare it as is as not all will have completed 30 games.

 

I think there are probably two choices, and both could be situation in which lawyers could become involved. While it is all being done for health reasons the one thing that, unfortunately, drives the human race is money or rather the potential loss of money in this case. If they declare the league null and void some will be upset, if they wind everything up based on present league positions others will be disappointed. If they decide to continue competiitons to a finish when will that be.

 

 

Hearts v uUd closed door playoff is also an option.

 

Regarding the league and euro places I have no idea.

[buzzbomb1958]

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

It has to go to closed doors after this month off, if they don't there will be insane chaos. 

No closed doors games as the virus could be spread either way football will not start till June at least so can't see it happening imo ithe season will be declared null and void as smaller clubs will be impacted by no money coming in ,no money no players wages ,players will have to bite the bullet like other ordinary people with ordinary jobs,this is an unprecedented situation ,nobody will have all the answers on how to go forward but there will be winners and losers out of this situation

[ManjaStendel]

Entgegen der landläufigen Meinung wird diese Reise auch in Zukunft fortgesetzt, unabhängig davon, was in dieser Saison in Bezug auf den Abstieg passiert, und darauf können Sie Ihr Haus wetten

[benny]

1 hour ago, Poseidon said:

Keep seeing mention on no down, 2 up Dundee Utd, ICT) based on current league position. How is that fair on Ayr and Dundee who currently have a chance of going up? 

 

Least amount of legal challenges would come from completely voiding the season IMO.

Agree.Tough on clubs but what can you do if there is still 8 games to go and the season is cancelled.

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Hearts v uUd closed door playoff is also an option.

 

Regarding the league and euro places I have no idea.

 

It isn't.    D-Utd are materially disadvantaged.    It's an unnecessary complication and likely dispute.     

 

The only sensible plan is to simplify to the max.