davemclaren Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, graygo said: His flight was before the government stepped in. Gotcha. Just capitalism then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, graygo said: His flight was before the government stepped in. 👍 Not even trying to disguise the inevitable shafting £850/£186. Edited April 25, 2020 by Old Blue Eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 59 minutes ago, Old Blue Eyes said: Thursday your flight is cancelled, how many days did you have to find another flight? Ryanair being an Irish company wouldn't receive repatriation money from a UK Government. TR and Ryanair failed you, Jet2 exploited you in your desperation, we're all in it together, sure we are. We were due to leave on the Saturday 21/03. It was early evening on the Thursday when I noticed they had cancelled. So up to that point I believed we were leaving as scheduled. As I said I wasted time trying to contact them so I only really had the Friday afternoon to arrange a flight as we were due to check out on the Saturday morning. We were checking all the sites and flights were few and far between. Seats would appear on a website and disappear before you could complete your purchase. There was a flight available to Glasgow but it was a single seat at £800 so I decided to let my wife take it on her own. Just as she was protesting about leaving me, four more seats appeared on the same flight so we managed to get them. At the airport it was turning nasty as Tui had brought several bus loads of passengers to the airport who were then being told they had no flight. By this time the lockdown had started and the hotels had been ordered to close. People were panicking and I felt really sorry for those passengers left behind. Ours was a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day we are home safe and well so that's the main thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, luckydug said: We were due to leave on the Saturday 21/03. It was early evening on the Thursday when I noticed they had cancelled. So up to that point I believed we were leaving as scheduled. As I said I wasted time trying to contact them so I only really had the Friday afternoon to arrange a flight as we were due to check out on the Saturday morning. We were checking all the sites and flights were few and far between. Seats would appear on a website and disappear before you could complete your purchase. There was a flight available to Glasgow but it was a single seat at £800 so I decided to let my wife take it on her own. Just as she was protesting about leaving me, four more seats appeared on the same flight so we managed to get them. At the airport it was turning nasty as Tui had brought several bus loads of passengers to the airport who were then being told they had no flight. By this time the lockdown had started and the hotels had been ordered to close. People were panicking and I felt really sorry for those passengers left behind. Ours was a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day we are home safe and well so that's the main thing. Sounds a nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: Sounds a nightmare. Nothing compared to the poor buggers left behind. I believe there are still people trying to get home from the Canary Isles yet. 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, luckydug said: Nothing compared to the poor buggers left behind. I believe there are still people trying to get home from the Canary Isles yet. 😕 Really? 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, luckydug said: We were due to leave on the Saturday 21/03. It was early evening on the Thursday when I noticed they had cancelled. So up to that point I believed we were leaving as scheduled. As I said I wasted time trying to contact them so I only really had the Friday afternoon to arrange a flight as we were due to check out on the Saturday morning. We were checking all the sites and flights were few and far between. Seats would appear on a website and disappear before you could complete your purchase. There was a flight available to Glasgow but it was a single seat at £800 so I decided to let my wife take it on her own. Just as she was protesting about leaving me, four more seats appeared on the same flight so we managed to get them. At the airport it was turning nasty as Tui had brought several bus loads of passengers to the airport who were then being told they had no flight. By this time the lockdown had started and the hotels had been ordered to close. People were panicking and I felt really sorry for those passengers left behind. Ours was a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day we are home safe and well so that's the main thing. I envy your control throughout, well done. I'd still be there, locked up in a lockdown. Edited April 25, 2020 by Old Blue Eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, luckydug said: Nothing compared to the poor buggers left behind. I believe there are still people trying to get home from the Canary Isles yet. 😕 I read an article about an elderly couple a few days ago, stuck in Tenerife. Apparently every flight they have booked has been cancelled leaving them out of pocket and still having to rebook . Makes our experience look like a picnic tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 Looks like Jet2 have completely closed their phone lines, unless the guys on here who managed to speak with them have a different number? I've tried a couple from their website and get the same closed message every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fonz Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 On 25/04/2020 at 14:44, davemclaren said: After requesting a refund via their online system from Ryanair they’ve now sent me an email with a link to my voucher and no clear guidance how you actually get a refund. 🤷🏼♂️ That’s exactly what KLM did, deliberately misleading customers into taking a voucher while they hold onto your cash for a year or longer. According to EU law they need to refund you in cash if they’ve not been able to run the flight you’ve paid for. Money Saving Expert are saying not to accept a voucher under any circumstances (unless you’re happy to do so). At some point they’ll be forced to start refunding customers properly but for now they’re making it as frustratingly slow a process as possible 🐍’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 7 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Looks like Jet2 have completely closed their phone lines, unless the guys on here who managed to speak with them have a different number? I've tried a couple from their website and get the same closed message every time. Have they prompted contact with you first? I waited until they contacted me via email regarding the cancelled holiday then phoned them. I think it was just a generic 0333 number then got through to someone working from their home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Samuel Camazzola said: Have they prompted contact with you first? I waited until they contacted me via email regarding the cancelled holiday then phoned them. I think it was just a generic 0333 number then got through to someone working from their home. Yeah I got that email a few weeks ago. I suspect they have just totally ceased inbound phone contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Yeah I got that email a few weeks ago. I suspect they have just totally ceased inbound phone contact. Just checked my call log and it was a number ending 0737. I got through on 1st April. Are you on Twitter? They look to be active on the responses just now so you could directly message them there to initiate contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 On 25/04/2020 at 18:12, luckydug said: Nothing compared to the poor buggers left behind. I believe there are still people trying to get home from the Canary Isles yet. 😕 I've got friends at work (a couple) and his dad who lived with them died. They flew him home to bury him in Mauritius and she got home on the last seat of the last flight before they locked the place down. He was left behind in the airport with her 9 year old son waiting on the next flight that still hasn't happened. I'm sure he's been stuck there for over 4 weeks now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 53 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said: Just checked my call log and it was a number ending 0737. I got through on 1st April. Are you on Twitter? They look to be active on the responses just now so you could directly message them there to initiate contact. That's the one I tried. The Mrs messaged them on FB but they're not responding. Will try twitter 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 I was in the Ryanair chat for about three hours today then it timed me out without a response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 1 hour ago, hmfc_liam06 said: That's the one I tried. The Mrs messaged them on FB but they're not responding. Will try twitter 👍 I'm not on Facebook but from their responses on Twitter, they are sometimes a bit behind but do seem to make the effort to catch up and respond. They seem to be encouraging some folk to fill out a form where they want something to be actioned. https://www.jet2holidays.com/contact-us/havent travelled yet/question Worth a try too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 18 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Looks like Jet2 have completely closed their phone lines, unless the guys on here who managed to speak with them have a different number? I've tried a couple from their website and get the same closed message every time. The email I got had a firm to fill in asking if you wanted to rebook or have a refund, they call back in date of original departure order. Took about a week, maybe wee bit less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 6 hours ago, graygo said: The email I got had a firm to fill in asking if you wanted to rebook or have a refund, they call back in date of original departure order. Took about a week, maybe wee bit less. Mines doesn't 🤷♂️ There's a button to manage booking but only to make an amendment, nothing about cancelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 45 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Mines doesn't 🤷♂️ There's a button to manage booking but only to make an amendment, nothing about cancelling. That was same as mine. I'd fill in the form and tweet. You'll get a response at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Samuel Camazzola said: That was same as mine. I'd fill in the form and tweet. You'll get a response at some point. The form had new dates etc but I thought I'd chance it and leave that blank and see if it sent, which it did. Hopefully get a call soon Edited April 28, 2020 by hmfc_liam06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locky Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Eurowings just cancelled my flights to Germany which were supposed to be next weekend. Like others, they mention nothing about refunds in the email. The website tells you to go to the app for a refund, and once there, no mention of that either. I understand that these companies are going through a very difficult time, but the practices from all of them is piss poor. At a time when people are perhaps in their own financial crisis, the fact that these companies can do anything possible to hold YOUR money that you're entitled to, is shocking. Like The Fonz, I stand to get £200 back which isn't exactly crippling me. But, for all they know, I'm a small business owner who's on his arse relying on getting that back to put food on the table or pay my rent. Looks like I am going to have to phone them, but I'm at work just now so might not get a chance. What would happen if someone just didn't contact them? Would they still refund automatically in the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 The latest from Ryanair explaining the voucher options. They have my name but lead with Dear Customer. No incentive to accept the voucher, massive opportunity missed to appease the Customer. Email incorrectly edited. Dear Customer, You have recently received an email with a voucher code to the value of your original booking. Please note that this voucher is valid for 12 Months and can be used for your future travel plans, please note that if you do not use the voucher the voucher before the expiry date you will receive a full cash refund, in the event you use the voucher in part you will also receive the option of a voucher for the balance or a cash refund after the expire date. Please click on the link below to accept the voucher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Barack said: So, you can get your money back in 12 months, but they want you to click on the voucher link, thus giving up your refund rights instead? I know I'm just up, but have I understood that correctly? The way I've interpreted it, if you want a refund prior to the voucher expiry date do not accept the voucher. What process a customer should use for refund still isn't clear, when it does become clear, the refund may still take several months. Ryanair needs the Customers cash for survival, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire_At_The_Disco Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Got an e-mail from TUI on Monday and was fully refunded for my March 29th cruise into the bank this morning. Such a relief after all the worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 56 minutes ago, Tambo_The_Jambo said: Got an e-mail from TUI on Monday and was fully refunded for my March 29th cruise into the bank this morning. Such a relief after all the worry. This will become a common post on this page in time imo, some will happily accept a voucher. Ryanair as an example are working with 20% admin staff and are being inundated with refund requests, up to 10,000 a day/week (not sure which) instead of around 400. I've changed my Jet2 holiday to next May and will probably accept a voucher from Ryanair for my Poland flights in August although I did pay for that on credit card so might go down that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Barack said: Bollocks what the airlines are doing. Even more bollocks, that Government's around the world know why airlines are doing it and won't intervene for that reason. Means no bailout and any political bias questions to certain airlines (legal redress through Courts possibly) If with them holding onto consumers cash (wrongly) and trying to muddy the refund waters, it gives them an excuse if the airline then goes under. As it failed to manage it's own cash crisis and/or make cuts that were deemed necessary. Like what BA are proposing. Muddying the waters is a deliberate strategy. My original 6 digit booking Ref No was good enough for all comms previously. The email sent prior to the one I received today contained the voucher with a lengthy OTT 18 digit number, this will create mayhem when asked to enter. The same email did not have a link to activate the voucher (voucherlimboland) but had a click here button for refund which took you on the inevitable road to nowhere. Today's email only has a link to accept the voucher, no link for refund. In the past when Ryanair have requested payment for any additional extras, their instructions have been crystal, leaving no doubt about when, how much and by what means. In contrast, the comms Ryanair is currently sending out looks amateurish and definitely confusing. Survival tactics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Barack said: Definitely survival tactics. Like all of them. Simon Calder from The Independent (on TV a lot) is one to follow, either in his columns or on Twitter. He's usually got his finger on the button. As I've said previously, if it's current customers cash keeping them afloat, show some professional appreciation please. I'll keep a look-out for Simon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire_At_The_Disco Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 1 hour ago, graygo said: This will become a common post on this page in time imo, some will happily accept a voucher. Ryanair as an example are working with 20% admin staff and are being inundated with refund requests, up to 10,000 a day/week (not sure which) instead of around 400. I've changed my Jet2 holiday to next May and will probably accept a voucher from Ryanair for my Poland flights in August although I did pay for that on credit card so might go down that route. Yep one way or another I’m sure you will get sorted bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fonz Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 KLM refused to give me a cash refund when I requested one, only to change the dates on the flight or a travel voucher. I rejected both as I’m entitled to a cash refund by UK law. Today they’ve emailed me a travel voucher for the cost of my flights, despite the fact I’ve not requested or accepted one. They seem to be trying every underhanded thing they can to con customers into letting the airline hold on to our cash. At some point the government will need to step in, but no idea when this might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Boy Named Crow Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 12 hours ago, The Fonz said: KLM refused to give me a cash refund when I requested one, only to change the dates on the flight or a travel voucher. I rejected both as I’m entitled to a cash refund by UK law. Today they’ve emailed me a travel voucher for the cost of my flights, despite the fact I’ve not requested or accepted one. They seem to be trying every underhanded thing they can to con customers into letting the airline hold on to our cash. At some point the government will need to step in, but no idea when this might be. My suspicion is they won't. We had a holiday cancelled over Easter due to the virus, no cash refund, just credit to use later. Forcing the airlines / travel companies to refund cash they don't have will only hasten their demise. The government will probably take the pragmatic view and look the other way with regards to trading standards in order to protect jobs. It's not right by the letter of the law, but I can understand why it's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribble Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 23 hours ago, Old Blue Eyes said: Muddying the waters is a deliberate strategy. My original 6 digit booking Ref No was good enough for all comms previously. The email sent prior to the one I received today contained the voucher with a lengthy OTT 18 digit number, this will create mayhem when asked to enter. The same email did not have a link to activate the voucher (voucherlimboland) but had a click here button for refund which took you on the inevitable road to nowhere. Today's email only has a link to accept the voucher, no link for refund. In the past when Ryanair have requested payment for any additional extras, their instructions have been crystal, leaving no doubt about when, how much and by what means. In contrast, the comms Ryanair is currently sending out looks amateurish and definitely confusing. Survival tactics? Correct! Even their email with the voucher instead of the previously requested cash refund didn't have a subject so probably hoping it ends up in folks spam folder to further delay claims. Only way i've heard of to actually join the queue for a cash refund from Ryanair is via private message on twitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fonz Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 31 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said: My suspicion is they won't. We had a holiday cancelled over Easter due to the virus, no cash refund, just credit to use later. Forcing the airlines / travel companies to refund cash they don't have will only hasten their demise. The government will probably take the pragmatic view and look the other way with regards to trading standards in order to protect jobs. It's not right by the letter of the law, but I can understand why it's needed. You may well be right. Tbf it’s not a lot of money, but I’m more annoyed at the sleekit tactics of offering a voucher, me rejecting it and then they send one anyway. The flight was for a stag do last weekend so there’s a dozen of us in the same boat. If it were any other industry I’d probably refuse to use KLM again on principle, but when it comes to air travel if it’s slightly cheaper or more convenient then principles for out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ribble said: Correct! Even their email with the voucher instead of the previously requested cash refund didn't have a subject so probably hoping it ends up in folks spam folder to further delay claims. Only way i've heard of to actually join the queue for a cash refund from Ryanair is via private message on twitter Yes, once you've joined the refund queue, Ryanair are playing this open-ended by stating the refunds will gradually be made once the pandemic is less intense, clever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Lyon Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52483453 Government about to take action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Not long of the phone to Jet2 and I can't fault them. The guy laid out the options, told him we wanted a full refund. No hassle whatsoever, processed it there and then and the money is now sitting back in my PayPal. Well played Jet2 👏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribble Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Not long of the phone to Jet2 and I can't fault them. The guy laid out the options, told him we wanted a full refund. No hassle whatsoever, processed it there and then and the money is now sitting back in my PayPal. Well played Jet2 👏 What number did you manage to get them on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Just now, Ribble said: What number did you manage to get them on? They phoned me mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribble Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Just now, hmfc_liam06 said: They phoned me mate. Ah ok cheers, they've said that they are doing that in flight date order, when were you due to fly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Just now, Ribble said: Ah ok cheers, they've said that they are doing that in flight date order, when were you due to fly? I'm the 17th May. Although I filled out the form on their website, it's supposed to be for rearranging but you can leave all that stuff blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connlach Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 I was shocked last night to get through to lufthansa in 10 seconds. They agreed to a refund but I am aware this is taking several weeks to process. They are in serious financial problems and therefore I hope I see it sometime if not it will be a chat with the credit card company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribble Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 7 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: I'm the 17th May. Although I filled out the form on their website, it's supposed to be for rearranging but you can leave all that stuff blank. Hmff I was due to fly on the 8th and heard toss all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 39 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Not long of the phone to Jet2 and I can't fault them. The guy laid out the options, told him we wanted a full refund. No hassle whatsoever, processed it there and then and the money is now sitting back in my PayPal. Well played Jet2 👏 👍 Same level of good service I received. If only some numpties would stop clogging up their communication channels with nonsense, they'd be able to address things quicker. Some of the Twitter queries are ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Ribble said: Hmff I was due to fly on the 8th and heard toss all Log in to the manage booking area and there should be a link to amend your holiday. Follow that and fill out the first part of the form. They got back to me within a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 3 hours ago, Samuel Camazzola said: 👍 Same level of good service I received. If only some numpties would stop clogging up their communication channels with nonsense, they'd be able to address things quicker. Some of the Twitter queries are ridiculous. Yeah I cant really fault them there. There was no attempt to not give me my refund or any dirty tricks. Feel for them but I need the money more now. We will definitely be booking with them again in future though, to be honest we almost always use them for package holidays anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Camazzola Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 4 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Yeah I cant really fault them there. There was no attempt to not give me my refund or any dirty tricks. Feel for them but I need the money more now. We will definitely be booking with them again in future though, to be honest we almost always use them for package holidays anyway. I ended up booking a cracking deal recently as it was too good to let pass. Will get refund again if all is not well by September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Is Back Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 9 hours ago, Ribble said: Hmff I was due to fly on the 8th and heard toss all We're the 15th. I think Liams got a response and a good one because of his email. Hope you get the call this week, you certainly don't want to be stuck on the phone to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 We've got flights for June with Ryanair. Everything else has been cancelled and refunded. Dreading Ryanair running flights rather than cancelling and losing out on the flight refund. If they do cancel and refuse to issue a refund I imagine we'll go through the credit card company to get the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor FinnBarr Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 27 minutes ago, Taffin said: We've got flights for June with Ryanair. Everything else has been cancelled and refunded. Dreading Ryanair running flights rather than cancelling and losing out on the flight refund. If they do cancel and refuse to issue a refund I imagine we'll go through the credit card company to get the money. I don't think Ryanair will be running flights anywhere soon. If ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 9 hours ago, Samuel Camazzola said: I ended up booking a cracking deal recently as it was too good to let pass. Will get refund again if all is not well by September. In all honesty we won't be going anywhere this year, places just aren't going to be the same for quite some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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