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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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Konrad von Carstein
22 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I wouldn't waste my energy trying to convince you, I couldn't care less if you walk away thinking it's bullshit. I could prove that we'd all be millionaires on Day 1 and you'd be "yeah, but..."

 

Unionists act like it's all some impossible dream, but in reality it's you who needs to convince those in the middle that theres something so inherently wrong with Scotland that we just doesn't have what it takes to be an independent nation.

 

We're the ones who're winning the debate, you're the ones with work to do.

"Like" :)

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1 hour ago, Smithee said:

I wouldn't waste my energy trying to convince you, I couldn't care less if you walk away thinking it's bullshit. I could prove that we'd all be millionaires on Day 1 and you'd be "yeah, but..."

 

Unionists act like it's all some impossible dream, but in reality it's you who needs to convince those in the middle that theres something so inherently wrong with Scotland that we just doesn't have what it takes to be an independent nation.

 

We're the ones who're winning the debate, you're the ones with work to do.

I don't think even the SNP are dumb enough to assume that they don't still need to win people over to their point of view.

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10 minutes ago, Candy said:

I don't think even the SNP are dumb enough to assume that they don't still need to win people over to their point of view.

I didn't say people don't need won over, I'm saying the argument's pretty much won, the unionist "no we can't" argument is failing. My side's gaining momentum and has overtaken yours, it's you that needs to turn things around, not me.

 

You guys say "people aren't convinced" when you mean "firm unionists aren't convinced"

Well cool, I'm not interested in convincing them, things are moving just fine without them.

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5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I didn't say people don't need won over, I'm saying the argument's pretty much won, the unionist "no we can't" argument is failing. My side's gaining momentum and has overtaken yours, it's you that needs to turn things around, not me.

 

You guys say "people aren't convinced" when you mean "firm unionists aren't convinced"

Well cool, I'm not interested in convincing them, things are moving just fine without them.

That's a very confident point of view you have. 

 

We'll only know if its correct in the event of a scexit vote

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3 minutes ago, Candy said:

That's a very confident point of view you have. 

 

We'll only know if its correct in the event of a scexit vote

Fine by me, let's do it.

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Space Mackerel
1 hour ago, Candy said:

That's a very confident point of view you have. 

 

We'll only know if its correct in the event of a scexit vote


‘Scexit’

 

😁😁😁

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Malinga the Swinga
10 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Worst drugs death rate 2019 in Europe another day job overlooked whilst the SG concentrate their efforts on indyref2 

Get the Murrell liars oot Scotland 

 

Doesn't matter. Post a stupid picture of Boris and the fantasists will fall about laughing. It's not SNP fault, it's never their fault. 

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Space Mackerel

But the way, if anyone wants to read about anyone breaking up the UK, you can read this article by Alistair Campbell and the book written by Jacob Rees Mogg’s auld man. 
 

I bet there’s not one “Sovereign individual” that supports the Union posting on here. 

 

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2020/12/15/alastair-campbell-the-23-year-old-book-that-explains-brexit-and-beyond/

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Konrad von Carstein
46 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Doesn't matter. Post a stupid picture of Boris and the fantasists will fall about laughing. It's not SNP fault, it's never their fault. 

That post would be just as accurate if you swapped Boris for Nicola and SNP for Tories.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Whatever pal, it’s utter cringe patter. :) 

Just following the same format as Brexit I don't see what the big deal is.

 

Having said that I did read someone on twitter say how Nats hate the use of Scexit.  I thought I'd test the theory myself on here.   

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Space Mackerel
22 minutes ago, Candy said:

Just following the same format as Brexit I don't see what the big deal is.

 

Having said that I did read someone on twitter say how Nats hate the use of Scexit.  I thought I'd test the theory myself on here.   


Did you read that article by Alistair Campbell, Brexit has been a construct in planning for decades  by the rich English Tory elite and you’re comparing it with the grassroots Scottish Independence movement? 

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1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:


Did you read that article by Alistair Campbell, Brexit has been a construct in planning for decades  by the rich English Tory elite and you’re comparing it with the grassroots Scottish Independence movement? 

No and yes

 

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1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Sound, let's test that theory

😅 it's not up to me Smithee, I just thought it made for an interesting read considering his previous political experience, don't shoot the messenger!

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Space Mackerel
Just now, Dawnrazor said:

😅 it's not up to me Smithee, I just thought it made for an interesting read considering his previous political experience, don't shoot the messenger!

 

There won't be an Independence ref in 2021, more like 2022 at the very earliest.

 

Which suits the Yes movement just dandy.

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Space Mackerel
Just now, Dawnrazor said:

How's that?

 Well Brexit will be in full swing, an English Nationalist gov in Westminster will be in full swing and the polls are only going in 1 direction.

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1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

😅 it's not up to me Smithee, I just thought it made for an interesting read considering his previous political experience, don't shoot the messenger!

Not digging at you! 

I personally don't buy it, I think her honeymoon was over a long time ago and she's still there because she's a very able politician.

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manaliveits105
1 hour ago, Candy said:

That'll be John Mackay on the Nationalist naughty step now next to Andrew Marr

 

That’s the quality that the Scottish people are sleep walking to re-elect

get them oot !

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2 hours ago, Candy said:

That'll be John Mackay on the Nationalist naughty step now next to Andrew Marr

 

 

You’d think the guy would do his homework before going on tv to get interviewed 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

Sturgeon is very good at answering questions but rest of her lot are useless 

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Brighton Jambo

I just simply don’t understand the level of Pro indy optimism on here.  
 

You have an almost perfect storm of Boris in number 10, we are on the verge of a no deal Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon is riding high in the popularity stakes and is perceived to do a better job on Covid than the UK govt and no one is really scrutinising the post independence plans due to other more important issues.  
 

And yet, the latest poll had a yes vote that was within the margin of error and support for SNP voting intentions falling.  Given the current climate support for Indy should be 60% plus and it’s nowhere near.  
 

Come the next Indy ref Boris won’t be PM, the Tories may not even be in power.  Brexit will be sorted and actually won’t be as bad as people say (not saying it won’t be bumpy in first few months without a deal), Covid should be over and life back to normal and the full rationale for Indy can be examined via a post Brexit mistakes lens.  Nicola Sturgeon may even be gone.  

 

If you think the figure for yes is then going to go up that’s just wishful thinking.   

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Brighton Jambo
15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

I think that fair though.  I am more conservative leaning than most on here but I haven’t and would never vote for Boris Johnson.  He is an embarrassment of a man and totally unfit to be PM.  Fortunately more and more people including his own party are starting to see that now.

 

Sunak is the bookies favourite to replace him and he has a persona and presence that I could get behind not least his articulate delivery unlike that bumbling Latin quoting clown.  

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jack D and coke
44 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I think that fair though.  I am more conservative leaning than most on here but I haven’t and would never vote for Boris Johnson.  He is an embarrassment of a man and totally unfit to be PM.  Fortunately more and more people including his own party are starting to see that now.

 

Sunak is the bookies favourite to replace him and he has a persona and presence that I could get behind not least his articulate delivery unlike that bumbling Latin quoting clown.  

Unless Labour replace Starmer they’re not getting in again.

Marcus Rashford has been far more effective than him already. Another empty suit. 
Johnson is an absolute coco though and Sunak after starting really well is just another one of them. 
Im of the opinion another indyref would likely fail though. That’s why I don’t understand the fierce opposition to one 
We’d bottle it again. Get it over with imo. 

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A Boy Named Crow
1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I just simply don’t understand the level of Pro indy optimism on here.  
 

You have an almost perfect storm of Boris in number 10, we are on the verge of a no deal Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon is riding high in the popularity stakes and is perceived to do a better job on Covid than the UK govt and no one is really scrutinising the post independence plans due to other more important issues.  
 

And yet, the latest poll had a yes vote that was within the margin of error and support for SNP voting intentions falling.  Given the current climate support for Indy should be 60% plus and it’s nowhere near.  
 

Come the next Indy ref Boris won’t be PM, the Tories may not even be in power.  Brexit will be sorted and actually won’t be as bad as people say (not saying it won’t be bumpy in first few months without a deal), Covid should be over and life back to normal and the full rationale for Indy can be examined via a post Brexit mistakes lens.  Nicola Sturgeon may even be gone.  

 

If you think the figure for yes is then going to go up that’s just wishful thinking.   

I think a lot of the optimism comes from the fact support for independence was around 30% before the campaign in 2014, and it got to 45%. 

Support is currently what,  low to mid 50s, without a campaign being underway yet.

 

Also, there's the belief that lessons have been learned from the last time regarding winning people over - who knows if that's true?

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Brighton Jambo
4 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I think a lot of the optimism comes from the fact support for independence was around 30% before the campaign in 2014, and it got to 45%. 

Support is currently what,  low to mid 50s, without a campaign being underway yet.

 

Also, there's the belief that lessons have been learned from the last time regarding winning people over - who knows if that's true?

I think to be fair I can see lessons have been learnt and Sturgeon certainly talks more openly about the challenges post independence which is sensible as I think pretending everything is going to be great was not the way to go.  
 

What I do think also is that people will demand much more clarity up front and if it’s not available the undecided will stick with the status quo.  That comes from the shambles that is Brexit and the fact four years on from the vote and people still have no idea what voting for Brexit actually means.  Non Tory pro union voices will make that point loud and clear during any Indy campaign and I do think it will land with undecideds.  

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jack D and coke
5 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I think to be fair I can see lessons have been learnt and Sturgeon certainly talks more openly about the challenges post independence which is sensible as I think pretending everything is going to be great was not the way to go.  
 

What I do think also is that people will demand much more clarity up front and if it’s not available the undecided will stick with the status quo.  That comes from the shambles that is Brexit and the fact four years on from the vote and people still have no idea what voting for Brexit actually means.  Non Tory pro union voices will make that point loud and clear during any Indy campaign and I do think it will land with undecideds.  

I think what they really have to focus on is if it is a No next time then we really are under the boot after that, we’ll have nowhere to go and won’t have a leg to stand on for probably 30-40 years. It’ll be take what you’re given and be quiet. I think they might come down hard after that once the threat of us leaving is finally extinguished. 
As long as the threat of one is there we have a bit leverage imo.

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A Boy Named Crow
14 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I think to be fair I can see lessons have been learnt and Sturgeon certainly talks more openly about the challenges post independence which is sensible as I think pretending everything is going to be great was not the way to go.  
 

What I do think also is that people will demand much more clarity up front and if it’s not available the undecided will stick with the status quo.  That comes from the shambles that is Brexit and the fact four years on from the vote and people still have no idea what voting for Brexit actually means.  Non Tory pro union voices will make that point loud and clear during any Indy campaign and I do think it will land with undecideds.  

Things like the currency question shouldn't be set years in advance,  they should be decided given the economic and political realities that exist when the currency question becomes an issue (if/when independence actually happens).  To tie the country into a decision like that in advance would be reckless and stupid. 

 

They need to set out what the options would be,  the pros and cons, but also explain it would need to be addressed later. 

 

This is true of most of the big decisions.  They can't and shouldn't be made now, but they should inform people about what the various options would mean. 

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37 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I think a lot of the optimism comes from the fact support for independence was around 30% before the campaign in 2014, and it got to 45%. 

Support is currently what,  low to mid 50s, without a campaign being underway yet.

 

Also, there's the belief that lessons have been learned from the last time regarding winning people over - who knows if that's true?

 

Can't agree with you thinking a campaign isn't underway at the moment.  She has a televised daily address to the country without any challenge.

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On 15/12/2020 at 06:10, manaliveits105 said:

Worst drugs death rate 2019 in Europe another day job overlooked whilst the SG concentrate their efforts on indyref2 

Get the Murrell liars oot Scotland 

 

I personally blame the individuals.

Their life choice. No government regardless of political persuasion to blame here. 

Personal responsibility here, or total lack of it.

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Seymour M Hersh
2 hours ago, theshed said:

 

You’d think the guy would do his homework before going on tv to get interviewed 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

Sturgeon is very good at answering questions but rest of her lot are useless 

 

In that she actually doesn't answer questions but moves straight to telling everyone how great the SNP have done in government and how dreadful the tories are. 

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Brighton Jambo
46 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Things like the currency question shouldn't be set years in advance,  they should be decided given the economic and political realities that exist when the currency question becomes an issue (if/when independence actually happens).  To tie the country into a decision like that in advance would be reckless and stupid. 

 

They need to set out what the options would be,  the pros and cons, but also explain it would need to be addressed later. 

 

This is true of most of the big decisions.  They can't and shouldn't be made now, but they should inform people about what the various options would mean. 

I agree that to make the decision pre vote is unrealistic.  Like you say all the risks and opportunities need laid out so people really can make an informed decision.  

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jack D and coke
17 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I agree that to make the decision pre vote is unrealistic.  Like you say all the risks and opportunities need laid out so people really can make an informed decision.  

That’s absolutely impossible. The unionist side want it laid out so they can attempt to punch holes in it and spread doubt and fear. I might come to the table saying I want this and you say if you want this then I want that. What brexit promised and what has unfolded doesn’t bear much resemblance so not really sure what laying it all out does other than make you look very stupid. But it would be very interesting seeing as Britain want all this frictionless trade with the entire world so I’d expect that to be a complete and utter breeze for one. 
There will be a timescale if we vote for it. It doesn’t do the rest of the uk and the businesses and bank etc etc any good if it’s a shitshow. Pragmatism will take over. 

It’s ok to admit you just point blank don’t want it. Nothing will convince some people. Both ways obviously. 

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Brighton Jambo
3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s absolutely impossible. The unionist side want it laid out so they can attempt to punch holes in it and spread doubt and fear. I might come to the table saying I want this and you say if you want this then I want that. What brexit promised and what has unfolded doesn’t bear much resemblance so not really sure what laying it all out does other than make you look very stupid. But it would be very interesting seeing as Britain want all this frictionless trade with the entire world so I’d expect that to be a complete and utter breeze for one. 
There will be a timescale if we vote for it. It doesn’t do the rest of the uk and the businesses and bank etc etc any good if it’s a shitshow. Pragmatism will take over. 

It’s ok to admit you just point blank don’t want it. Nothing will convince some people. Both ways obviously. 

I don’t want it and actually I think one of the best ways to stop it is to highlight all the uncertainty and risks there are and to make out the SNP don’t have a plan for how to deal with it.  
 

To combat that if the Yes vote lay out as much detail as they can it eliminates the idea that either they don’t know and/or are making it up.  Sure the other side will pick holes in it but I think yes will be in a stronger position if they have clear plans to describe the future than hoping people do another Brexit and vote for something they have no idea over.  If I was the Labour leader I would just go all over Scotland saying how much of a total balls up Brexit was because we didn’t know what we were voting for and how could we make that mistake again.  The Yes side need to combat that as it wasn’t such a big factor in 2014.  Don’t underestimate how scarred people will be by Brexit.  Not the yes hard core but undecideds.  

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jack D and coke
13 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I don’t want it and actually I think one of the best ways to stop it is to highlight all the uncertainty and risks there are and to make out the SNP don’t have a plan for how to deal with it.  
 

To combat that if the Yes vote lay out as much detail as they can it eliminates the idea that either they don’t know and/or are making it up.  Sure the other side will pick holes in it but I think yes will be in a stronger position if they have clear plans to describe the future than hoping people do another Brexit and vote for something they have no idea over.  If I was the Labour leader I would just go all over Scotland saying how much of a total balls up Brexit was because we didn’t know what we were voting for and how could we make that mistake again.  The Yes side need to combat that as it wasn’t such a big factor in 2014.  Don’t underestimate how scarred people will be by Brexit.  Not the yes hard core but undecideds.  

All fair enough. 

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27 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I don’t want it and actually I think one of the best ways to stop it is to highlight all the uncertainty and risks there are and to make out the SNP don’t have a plan for how to deal with it.  
 

To combat that if the Yes vote lay out as much detail as they can it eliminates the idea that either they don’t know and/or are making it up.  Sure the other side will pick holes in it but I think yes will be in a stronger position if they have clear plans to describe the future than hoping people do another Brexit and vote for something they have no idea over.  If I was the Labour leader I would just go all over Scotland saying how much of a total balls up Brexit was because we didn’t know what we were voting for and how could we make that mistake again.  The Yes side need to combat that as it wasn’t such a big factor in 2014.  Don’t underestimate how scarred people will be by Brexit.  Not the yes hard core but undecideds.  

Very good points, that and there's been no campaigning from the remain side, when and if another referendum is called the uncertainties will be fully exploited and I'd think that lead will drop, I obviously can't say by how much.

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34 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Very good points, that and there's been no campaigning from the remain side, when and if another referendum is called the uncertainties will be fully exploited and I'd think that lead will drop, I obviously can't say by how much.

 

:kirklol: 

 

Other than the almost-incessant unionist sniping (the sorest winners in political history) and attempts to undermine the Scottish Government by all and sundry since 19 September 2014, you're right - absolutely none...   :whistling:  I'm sure, when the time comes, Bojo will be along with some enormous lies emblazoned on the side of a bus.   :icon14:

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4 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

:kirklol: 

 

Other than the almost-incessant unionist sniping (the sorest winners in political history) and attempts to undermine the Scottish Government by all and sundry since 19 September 2014, you're right - absolutely none...   :whistling:  I'm sure, when the time comes, Bojo will be along with some enormous lies emblazoned on the side of a bus.   :icon14:

That's not the same as a campaign though is it? 

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9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's not the same as a campaign though is it? 

 

It has seemed very much like one to me; a relentless, five-year (and counting) one.

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9 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

It has seemed very much like one to me; a relentless, five-year (and counting) one.

That could be said for both sides really.

You know what I mean though, a proper electoral campaign has still to take place, and I don't mean Nicola Sturgeon's daily Party Political Broadcast!

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Just now, Dawnrazor said:

That could be said for both sides really.

You know what I mean though, a proper electoral campaign has still to take place, and I don't mean Nicola Sturgeon's daily Party Political Broadcast!

 

Which, presumably you don't watch / have never watched, otherwise you wouldn't come out with such trite bullplop. Don't believe everything / anything the Daily Mail tells you...

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1 minute ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Which, presumably you don't watch / have never watched, otherwise you wouldn't come out with such trite bullplop. Don't believe everything / anything the Daily Mail tells you...

I don't read such a rag, I have watched them, pretty poor reply to be honest.

 

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