The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Nucky Thompson]

39 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Banter is what my children find to be most important too...

You're never to old for a bit of banter.

Do you not love sticking it up your Hibs mates when we pump them 

[Pans Jambo]

13 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

You're never to old for a bit of banter.

Do you not love sticking it up your Hibs mates when we pump them 

Yes, yes I do but its a bit different to your country being in control of itself instead of a bunch of self interested toffs 400 miles away who are hell bent on  lining their own pockets and killing or ripping off anyone not in their club!

[Space Mackerel]

13 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

It might strengthen the case for maintaining the union if Scottish Unionists spent more time arguing that point with English politicians/people. 

I bet Nucky loved Ian Blackford getting jeered and all the Tory MP’s walking out at PMQ’s several times recently. 

[Brighton Jambo]

On 16/08/2020 at 11:45, OTT said:

 

 

I think he's right. I think the one thing everyone in this thread can agree on is that we need to move on, the difference of opinion coming in how we do that. The demand for another referendum isn't going away which means that the political sphere within Scotland will continue to be dominated by constitutional issues until the referendum is settled. This 'once in a generation' stuff the tories are desperately latching onto is incredible. The only trace of that phrase every being uttered was once by Salmond as an off the cuff remark to emphasise the importance of it. Nowhere in the Scotland Act was this agreed or even in mainstream discussion by either side during 2014. A single remark was made and has been clung onto for dear life by the Tories.

 

I do fear though that a case for the union campaign run by Cummings will need to be carefully watched. Much like with the Brexit bus and other issues, he's a man totally unafraid of lying to achieve his ends. Clearly with so much riding on this we'll see every trick in the book being thrown to try to maintain the Union. Its so important that the Yes camp can answer the difficult questions clearly and unambiguously this time. Currency being a clear bone of contention which won no voters. If we want to continue using Sterling, and they take the same approach Osborne did in 2014 (they wouldn't allow it) they need to answer why thats nonsense, why the UK needs Scotland to continue using it. 

 

Ultimately, there isn't a positive case for the Union, if there was Darling would have led with that in 2014. I think we'll see a campaign built on lies, smear and fear. My hope is that Cummings very involvement is enough to poison the well for people bothering to listen to his rhetoric. I think the lack of positivity for the Union can actually be pretty well characterised by some of the unionist posters on this thread. Condescension and dismissiveness with regards to Independence and little attempt to actually emphasise why the Union is so good for us. Seems more focused on why Independence is bad rather than any meaningful attempt to push a case for the union. I mean its easy to be a naysayer, 'don't buy a house, what if it loses value', 'don't go outside, you might get hit by a bus'. Its just not credible. 

 

I'm not trying to say Independence is the answer to all out problems, but I am saying that with that we'd be free to actually address those problems head on. How many times do you see Labour or the Tories trying to point out a failing at FMQs only for it to be highlighted that its not a devolved matter? Being able to have the freedom to address those issues and try different ideas to tackle serious issues may radically improve areas like drug addiction or other societal issues. 

You clearly favour independence so obviously  it’s harder for you to see any positives from the union.  One of the clearest and biggest positives is trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK and how much of the Scottish economy is supported by that market.  
 

If you favour independence I suspect that your view will almost certainly be that this could, would and should continue post indy.  The reality is with an independent Scotland looking to join the EU that continuity just can’t be assumed.  That’s not scaremongering that’s just identifying a likely risk that would have a tangible impact on Scottish businesses.  

I also consider myself British, not English or Scottish.  I am very proud of our shared history and the societal ties that bind us and don’t want to see that ended or eroded.  That to me is a huge positive as it will be for many pro union people so although I know you and many others will dismiss it is still a positive case for the union.  

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brighton Jambo

[Pans Jambo]

33 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

You clearly favour independence so obviously  it’s harder for you to see any positives from the union.  One of the clearest and biggest positives is trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK and how much of the Scottish economy is supported by that market.  
 

If you favour independence I suspect that your view will almost certainly be that this could, would and should continue post indy.  The reality is with an independent Scotland looking to join the EU that continuity just can’t be assumed.  That’s not scaremongering that’s just identifying a likely risk that would have a tangible impact on Scottish businesses.  

I also consider myself British, not English or Scottish.  I am very proud of our shared history and the societal ties that bind us and don’t want to see that ended or eroded.  That to me is a huge positive as it will be for many pro union people so although I know you and many others will dismiss it is still a positive case for the union.  

And do the Scots not buy English goods or is it just a one way street? Countries trade with other countries all over the globe. Are the English going to suddenly stop buying biscuits, salmon, confectionery, whisky, beers, gin, lamb, beef, oil, gas, electricity, pharmaceuticals, financial services, timber products etc. etc etc. just because the Scots decide they think they could run their own country better that the tories in Westminster???

 

Funny how old England just decided to stick two fingers up to the largest single market on the planet and walk away regardless of the cost but yet again, NOT something Scotland should consider with her big brother next door throwing cash in our direction.

 

What "shared history"? The empire and the blood that cost Scots?

 

Geez peace!

[Ray Gin]

22 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

[Brighton Jambo]

17 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

And do the Scots not buy English goods or is it just a one way street? Countries trade with other countries all over the globe. Are the English going to suddenly stop buying biscuits, salmon, confectionery, whisky, beers, gin, lamb, beef, oil, gas, electricity, pharmaceuticals, financial services, timber products etc. etc etc. just because the Scots decide they think they could run their own country better that the tories in Westminster???

 

Funny how old England just decided to stick two fingers up to the largest single market on the planet and walk away regardless of the cost but yet again, NOT something Scotland should consider with her big brother next door throwing cash in our direction.

 

What "shared history"? The empire and the blood that cost Scots?

 

Geez peace!

That response is exactly why it is impossible to have a reasoned or sensible debate on independence.  
 

out of courtesy, not that you deserve it I will try and answer.  By the way it’s rest of the UK not just England.  I didn’t say they wouldn’t buy those goods but right now we have a totally free internal markets, any tarriffs or change of regulations over standards could restrict that trade and introduce additional costs to Scottish and rest of UK businesses.  Given the relevance population size the value of rUK to Scotland is significantly less than Scotland to rUK in relation to trade.  
 

brexit is a terrible idea for the economy and trade, most people think so and I think unwittingly you have proved my point.  If rUK walking away from European market, it’s biggest customer is a bad idea then so is Scotland walking away from its biggest market.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.

if that’s your response to the social and shared history union then again it proves you are incapable of proper debate.  

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brighton Jambo

[Space Mackerel]

10 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That response is exactly why it is impossible to have a reasoned or sensible debate on independence.  
 

out of courtesy, not that you deserve it I will try and answer.  By the way it’s rest of the UK not just England.  I didn’t say they wouldn’t buy those goods but right now we have a totally free internal markets, any tarriffs or change of regulations over standards could restrict that trade and introduce additional costs to Scottish and rest of UK businesses.  Given the relevance population size the value of rUK to Scotland is significantly less than Scotland to rUK in relation to trade.  
 

brexit is a terrible idea for the economy and trade, most people think so and I think unwittingly you have proved my point.  If rUK walking away from European market, it’s biggest customer is a bad idea then so is Scotland walking away from its biggest market.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.

if that’s your response to the social and shared history union then again it proves you are incapable of proper debate.  

 

England can have tariff free market with Scotland when it joins the EU.

[Pans Jambo]

13 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That response is exactly why it is impossible to have a reasoned or sensible debate on independence.  
 

out of courtesy, not that you deserve it I will try and answer.  By the way it’s rest of the UK not just England.  I didn’t say they wouldn’t buy those goods but right now we have a totally free internal markets, any tarriffs or change of regulations over standards could restrict that trade and introduce additional costs to Scottish and rest of UK businesses.  Given the relevance population size the value of rUK to Scotland is significantly less than Scotland to rUK in relation to trade.  
 

brexit is a terrible idea for the economy and trade, most people think so and I think unwittingly you have proved my point.  If rUK walking away from European market, it’s biggest customer is a bad idea then so is Scotland walking away from its biggest market.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.

if that’s your response to the social and shared history union then again it proves you are incapable of proper debate.  

Off yer tory high horse! "Incapable of debate" like you're some sort of high school debating champion with a massive IQ 

 

Highly likely scots will vote to leave the shambolic "UK" then join the EU but when that happens it doesn't mean there will be no trade between ENGLAND and Scotland. (there IS no "UK", its ran by an English parliament and they make the rules to suit themselves). 

 

You're a unionist which means you endorse tories running my country even though we didn't vote for them so I'm out.

 

My dad always said don't ever argue with idiots, its too frustrating.

 

Now off with you to watch University Challenge, there's a lad...

[Space Mackerel]

Imagine thinking there would be no trade between Scotland and England after Indy?

 

How do people get brainwashed into that train of thought? Scary stuff!

 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Imagine thinking there would be no trade between Scotland and England after Indy?

 

How do people get brainwashed into that train of thought? Scary stuff!

 

L

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brighton Jambo

[jack D and coke]

35 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That response is exactly why it is impossible to have a reasoned or sensible debate on independence.  
 

out of courtesy, not that you deserve it I will try and answer.  By the way it’s rest of the UK not just England.  I didn’t say they wouldn’t buy those goods but right now we have a totally free internal markets, any tarriffs or change of regulations over standards could restrict that trade and introduce additional costs to Scottish and rest of UK businesses.  Given the relevance population size the value of rUK to Scotland is significantly less than Scotland to rUK in relation to trade.  
 

brexit is a terrible idea for the economy and trade, most people think so and I think unwittingly you have proved my point.  If rUK walking away from European market, it’s biggest customer is a bad idea then so is Scotland walking away from its biggest market.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.

if that’s your response to the social and shared history union then again it proves you are incapable of proper debate.  

Don’t you think it’s a bit strange that the UK reckons we should have a free trade agreement with the EU countries after brexit yet we’re all told if we leave the UK we’all have to whistle for one with the ruk? Also we’ll have no money with which to trade. 
A bit bizarre no?

[Brighton Jambo]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Don’t you think it’s a bit strange that the UK reckons we should have a free trade agreement with the EU countries after brexit yet we’re all told if we leave the UK we’all have to whistle for one with the ruk? Also we’ll have no money with which to trade. 
A bit bizarre no?

If we get a Tarriff free trade deal with EU that doesn’t restrict our trade or introduce regulations over standards I will agree it makes Scottish independence less risky.  Let’s wait and see shall we as everyone seems so sure we can’t get a deal like that.  
 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brighton Jambo

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

If we get a Tarriff free trade deal with EU that doesn’t restrict our trade or introduce regulations over standards I will agree it makes Scottish independence less risky:  let’s wait and see shall we everyone seems so sure We can’t get a deal like that.  
 

 

 

The UK is only getting that unless it allows free movement of people and pays a large membership fee etc

 

Barnier has been crystal clear from the start

[Brighton Jambo]

26 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

The UK is only getting that unless it allows free movement of people and pays a large membership fee etc

 

Barnier has been crystal clear from the start

Which seems unlikely doesn’t it, so no free trade deal which means tarriffs and regulations on imports and exports. The same tarriffs and regulations that would then be applicable to trade between an independent Scotland in the EU and rest of UK.

 

Thanks for backing me up! 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Which seems unlikely doesn’t it, so no free trade deal which means tarriffs and regulations on imports and exports. The same tarriffs and regulations that would then be applicable to trade between an independent Scotland in the EU and rest of UK.

 

Thanks for backing me up! 

 

Scotland won't be in the EU after Indy. It has to apply to join. Probably take a year or 2 at the most.

 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

34 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Scotland won't be in the EU after Indy. It has to apply to join. Probably take a year or 2 at the most.

 

 

Yeah that’s a really good point, more uncertainty and complexity to navigate.  

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yeah that’s a really good point, more uncertainty and complexity to navigate.  

 

Hmmmmmmmm....

 

[coconut doug]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That response is exactly why it is impossible to have a reasoned or sensible debate on independence.  
 

out of courtesy, not that you deserve it I will try and answer.  By the way it’s rest of the UK not just England.  I didn’t say they wouldn’t buy those goods but right now we have a totally free internal markets, any tarriffs or change of regulations over standards could restrict that trade and introduce additional costs to Scottish and rest of UK businesses.  Given the relevance population size the value of rUK to Scotland is significantly less than Scotland to rUK in relation to trade.  
 

brexit is a terrible idea for the economy and trade, most people think so and I think unwittingly you have proved my point.  If rUK walking away from European market, it’s biggest customer is a bad idea then so is Scotland walking away from its biggest market.  Two wrongs don’t make a right.

if that’s your response to the social and shared history union then again it proves you are incapable of proper debate.  

 

    In as much as i can understand this, with the tortured language and suspect grammar, it seems the contention is that the value of rUK to Scotland is smaller than Scotland to the rUK. I have no idea what this notion is, what it is based on and why it is deemed relevant. The mention of population seems pointless but the poster surely is trying to make a point. I just wish he would tell us what it is. There is a supposition that tariffs will be detrimental to Scotland and whilst that may be true, the opposite might be the case. The idea that free trade is necessary for us to be prosperous is unproven and contradicted. 

              The poster states that most people think Brexit is a "terrible idea" and while that is true for Scotland it clearly isn't for England and that's why we are in this position. The notion of an internal market is pretty much a fallacy and is impossible to measure accurately. Independence will mean new trading relationships and to attempt to predict what these may be, and the effects they might have are disingenuous especially as we are hurtling toward a No Deal with the EU.

   

[XXX]

The Trial of Alex Salmond on BBC Two, 9pm.

 

🧐

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, The Spy Who Loved Me said:

The Trial of Alex Salmond on BBC Two, 9pm.

 

🧐

Spoiler

 

Hes not guilty in the end.

 

As much as it annoyed Trapper, wherever he is these days. Guarding statues is my guess. 

[Space Mackerel]

55 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

    In as much as i can understand this, with the tortured language and suspect grammar, it seems the contention is that the value of rUK to Scotland is smaller than Scotland to the rUK. I have no idea what this notion is, what it is based on and why it is deemed relevant. The mention of population seems pointless but the poster surely is trying to make a point. I just wish he would tell us what it is. There is a supposition that tariffs will be detrimental to Scotland and whilst that may be true, the opposite might be the case. The idea that free trade is necessary for us to be prosperous is unproven and contradicted. 

              The poster states that most people think Brexit is a "terrible idea" and while that is true for Scotland it clearly isn't for England and that's why we are in this position. The notion of an internal market is pretty much a fallacy and is impossible to measure accurately. Independence will mean new trading relationships and to attempt to predict what these may be, and the effects they might have are disingenuous especially as we are hurtling toward a No Deal with the EU.

   

I think he means Marks and Sparks ready meals are going to cost £50 a curry after Independence? 
 

Something like that. 

[JackLadd]

Salmond's acquittal was and is a total joke. Scotland's other shame.

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Salmond's acquittal was and is a total joke. Scotland's other shame.

You should’ve made yourself aware to the prosecution and gave your evidence.

 

[XXX]

The biggest thing we can take from this Alex Salmond documentary is further evidence of the salacious way that the press and media treat these sorts of allegations.

[Weakened Offender]

16 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Salmond's acquittal was and is a total joke. Scotland's other shame.

 

Still beeling then? 😁

[Randy Marsh]

19 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Salmond's acquittal was and is a total joke. Scotland's other shame.

Justice was done.  

[XXX]

This is to cast aspersions on the Alex Salmond book and possible court cases, which will expose the collusion and corruption that went on to brIng the case to trial.
 

These women could be charged for bringing a false or fraudulent claim to court.

[JackLadd]

4 minutes ago, The Spy Who Loved Me said:

This is to cast aspersions on the Alex Salmond book and possible court cases, which will expose the collusion and corruption that went on to brIng the case to trial.
 

These women could be charged for bringing a false or fraudulent claim to court.

 

In your dreams.

[Space Mackerel]

Cannae beat a bit of good old impartial Aunty BBC tucked up on a driech night like this. 😁😁😁

[XXX]

Interesting thing about the BBC prosecution of Alex Salmond is the people who are NOT rushing to condemn it.

[Space Mackerel]

Kirsty Wark goes on NY holidays with top Scottish Better Together Labour politicians don’t you know.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4150817.stm

Edited August 17, 2020 by Space Mackerel

[XXX]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Spoiler

 

Hes not guilty in the end.

 

As much as it annoyed Trapper, wherever he is these days. Guarding statues is my guess. 

 

It wasn’t a spoiler I can assure you that!

Since the Me Too movement Alex Salmond has been the only male acquitted of allegations of a sexual nature.

[Randy Marsh]

11 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Kirsty Wark goes on NY holidays with top Scottish Better Together Labour politicians don’t you know.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4150817.stm

She looked absolutely gutted when the news broke that Salmond was innocent.  This horrendous interview from a good few years back just shows how bias she is. 

 

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, The Spy Who Loved Me said:

 

It wasn’t a spoiler I can assure you that!

Since the Me Too movement Alex Salmond has been the only male acquitted of allegations of a sexual nature.

I don’t watch BBC propaganda like that pal, learned that a long time ago. In fact, I don’t really watch any BBC nowadays. 
And I don’t pay my TV license either. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Randy Marsh said:

She looked absolutely gutted when the news broke that Salmond was innocent.  This horrendous interview from a good few years back just shows how bias she is. 

 

Ive seen that, something to do with the accused Libyan bomber being released before he popped his clogs with cancer.

 

[Space Mackerel]

Show was a Two Rivers Media production, Alan Clements is Warks hubby. 
 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC605895/officers

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

51 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Ive seen that, something to do with the accused Libyan bomber being released before he popped his clogs with cancer.

 

Here's a plate Kirsty, yer erse is on it! What a dreadful interviewer she is and an embarrassment to Scotland. Proud little Britnat and utter moron. 

 

[Notts1874]

Hey folks. Are we allowed to think Salmond is a creepy shite(lawyers have been consulted) but the SNP are the best chance of Scotland becoming independent. 

 

Then you can vote for whoever you want. 

[Justin Z]

10 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Hey folks. Are we allowed to think Salmond is a creepy shite(lawyers have been consulted) but the SNP are the best chance of Scotland becoming independent. 

 

Then you can vote for whoever you want. 

 

Seems perfectly consistent from over here.

[Space Mackerel]

Kirsty Warks hubby production confirmed. 
 

 

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Seems perfectly consistent from over here.

You are going to need to swallow very hard buddy just for one night, 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

You are going to need to swallow very hard buddy just for one night, 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

I'll be projectile vomiting all evening, I'm not sure swallowing will be physically possible

[robroy1874]

On 17/08/2020 at 21:54, Space Mackerel said:

Cannae beat a bit of good old impartial Aunty BBC tucked up on a driech night like this. 😁😁😁

Utterly biased "documentary". Wark didn't even pretend to hide her disappointment at the verdict ,and even after still proceeded to infer the verdict was wrong. So much for BBC neutrality.

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon, post Alex Salmond, will completely blow up soon. 

 

It is like a submarine, it can't pretend it isn't here doing the things that political parties do. 

But The SNP were the most innocent, perfect, pure entity in Scotland for more than a decade.

 

The SNP are due a complete inner destruction, and as an outsider, imo, The SNP and the pro-Scottish Independence movement, will experience a powerful sequence of things, 

 

Indyref 2/3 however you count it, you are done. imo

 

 

You will remember to mention it when it happens won't you?

[BudgeUp]

22 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon, post Alex Salmond, will completely blow up soon. 

 

It is like a submarine, it can't pretend it isn't here doing the things that political parties do. 

But The SNP were the most innocent, perfect, pure entity in Scotland for more than a decade.

 

The SNP are due a complete inner destruction, and as an outsider, imo, The SNP and the pro-Scottish Independence movement, will experience a powerful sequence of things, 

 

Indyref 2/3 however you count it, you are done. imo

 

 

I think you've confused hope vs reality. 

 

You hope that's the case. 

 

The reality is even if the SNP implode you've still got section of society (~45%) who will vote for them. 

 

I've voted Conservative almost all my adult life as I'm naturally right of centre. 

 

I don't like the SNP one bit, but they'll now get my vote from now until we're independent. 

 

I voted no first time round. I've not forgiven myself for that as I bought the bullfaeces. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by BudgeUp

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

There is so much fun for me at this stage of Nicola/Alex/SNP/Indy/Yes/You Yes Yet?/White Paper/Andrew Wilson/GROWTH COMMIISSION!!!!!!!!/Wait, SNP infighting?

Still getting my vote until independence is achieved. 

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

I think you've confused hope vs reality. 

 

You hope that's the case. 

 

The reality is even if the SNP implode you've still got section of society (~45%) who will vote for them. 

 

I've voted Conservative almost all my adult life as I'm naturally right of centre. 

 

I don't like the SNP one bit, but they'll now get my vote from now until we're independent. 

 

I voted no first time round. I've not forgiven myself for that as I bought the bullfaeces. 

I'm very much left of centre and the snp aren't to my taste either, but you an I'll be voting the same way until we're independent. That's the reality now, cross-spectrum support for the concept that Scotland needs to GTF free from Westminster rule.

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

I know Nicola Sturgeon/theSNP will blow up. 

 

If you have been paying attention, you will be very wary of them. 

 

I cannot see Scottish Independence occurring here, with this set up of all you lot doing this thing you do, and Nicola Sturgeon doing the thing she does.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean. I've just watched that awful documentary by Kirsty Wark and what a travesty of journalism it is. It's that sort of thing that strengthens my resolve in our pursuit of self governance.

 

The British State is being found out and its weasly ways are propaganda for the stupid. 

[Unknown user]

After independence I'll be keeping an eye on what Mhairi Black's up to. She wants the best for ordinary people, she's unpretentious, smart, articulate, she fears no-one. I'll be wanting to know what party she gets involved with as a starter for 10.

I could see the SNP falling then to be fair.