The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Mars plastic]

Do we have a date for yon referendum yet?

 

I’ll guess twelfth of never. 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Do we have a date for yon referendum yet?

 

I’ll guess twelfth of never. 

It's scheduled for the day after your patter stops being tiresome.

[jack D and coke]

44 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Westminster has a magic money tree right enough 🤣. Not sure what Kerrydale Street's got to do with it! I'm a Heart of Midlothian fan, what about you? Sevco? 

They all do it. The sectarian under current is ripping out them. Bojo and Rees Mogg are I suppose big sellic men too going by that way of thinking but that doesn’t seem to bother them the same🤪🤣

All that Tory cabinet are kaffliks. 
Not the bad scottish kaffliks tho. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by jack D and coke

[Mars plastic]

23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

It's scheduled for the day after your patter stops being tiresome.

That'll be the twelfth of never then. 

[scott herbertson]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

What happened to “once in a generation”?

 

People voted for something different at the last election

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I disagree, bud. 45/55 was close. As a 2014 yes voter, Imfelt it was close enough to warrant “another go” sometime.

 

However, that was based on gut feeling and disappointment rather than feeling there was still a large enough support for Indy.

 

The rhetoric at the time was about “once in a generation”. Now it’s “material differences”. I get Indy supporters want another shot, but at least be honest about the fact that it’s simply because they lost the first one.

 

A 60/40 or 70/30 rule would at least stop the “look how close we came, if we could only convince a few more folk and wait till the auldies die” moaning. 

 

Who's being dishonest? I want independence because I want independence. 

If I'm asked how I justify asking for the democratic view of the Scottish people then it's because things have changed since the last vote, the same happens with elections.

 

A 50%+1 rule was enough to deny independence and to gain brexit, the precedent is set.

 

As I said before I'd have no problem with it being discussed post independence, the Scottish people should be heard

[Mars plastic]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

What happened to “once in a generation”?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzot3DNeU4

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Who's being dishonest? I want independence because I want independence. 

If I'm asked how I justify asking for the democratic view of the Scottish people then it's because things have changed since the last vote, the same happens with elections.

 

A 50%+1 rule was enough to deny independence and to gain brexit, the precedent is set.

 

As I said before I'd have no problem with it being discussed post independence, the Scottish people should be heard

Who are "the Scottish people" that we keep hearing about?? Do you mean SNP/Independence supporters?

33% couldn't be arsed voting in the Brexit referendum, so it's a stretch to suggest that "the Scottish people" are that engaged with politics tbh

[jack D and coke]

What aboot Boris’s dead in a ditch comment? Is that to be taking literally too aye  

The GFA states that 7 years is acceptable to re-visit a question. 
 

[manaliveits105]

25 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzot3DNeU4

LIAR 🤥 

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Who are "the Scottish people" that we keep hearing about?? Do you mean SNP/Independence supporters?

33% couldn't be arsed voting in the Brexit referendum, so it's a stretch to suggest that "the Scottish people" are that engaged with politics tbh

 

The Scottish electorate are the only people who matter in this conversation.

[Mars plastic]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The Scottish electorate are the only people who matter in this conversation.

Correct, and they made their decision in 2014. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Correct, and they made their decision in 2014. 

 

So? Why does that mean I can't have my say now?

[Taffin]

1 hour ago, Mars plastic said:

That'll be the twelfth of never then. 

 

😂😂

[Mars plastic]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

So? Why does that mean I can't have my say now?

Jeez. It's utterly pointless debating this as we'll never agree. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Mars plastic said:

Jeez. It's utterly pointless debating this as we'll never agree. 

 

Boring too

[XB52]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

What happened to “once in a generation”?

You asked a question and I answered it. 

[XB52]

22 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Correct, and they made their decision in 2014. 

And 2015 2016 2017 2019 2021.

[Jeffros Furios]

Freedom isn't free .

[Boab]

24 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

Jeez. It's utterly pointless debating this as we'll never agree. 

It puzzles me too.

I don't come on here, debate and think...Christ, they're right !

It does puzzle me why people opposed to Indy don't want another ref though. Going by comments no would win again, no ?

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

It's so sad isn't it. Not got a clue so resort to childish name calling or the old tartan ira shite. 

Correct. Strange as I'm Church of Scotland and Freemason if it helps soothe his thoughts. 

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

They all do it. The sectarian under current is ripping out them. Bojo and Rees Mogg are I suppose big sellic men too going by that way of thinking but that doesn’t seem to bother them the same🤪🤣

All that Tory cabinet are kaffliks. 
Not the bad scottish kaffliks tho. 

Correct again Jack. I've got Catholic family but let's not derail the thread! 😄

[henryheart]

57 minutes ago, Boab said:

It puzzles me too.

I don't come on here, debate and think...Christ, they're right !

It does puzzle me why people opposed to Indy don't want another ref though. Going by comments no would win again, no ?

 

Some of those who oppose another referendum do so because last time round the SNP were saying that it was a once in a generation opportunity, only for them to almost immediately turn round after losing to say that as it was a close call, let's do it again. Can you trust these people? The excuse this time is Brexit, but there will always be an excuse; it has all the hallmarks of a vicious cycle of repeated demands for a referendum that could continue ad infinitum because without it the SNP has no purpose.  Personally while I think the cost of a referendum would be better spent publicly funding areas that would improve the living standards of people in Scotland, as a No voter I'd be quite happy to have another referendum tomorrow. I bet Sturgeon wouldn't. 

[Boab]

5 minutes ago, henryheart said:

 

Some of those who oppose another referendum do so because last time round the SNP were saying that it was a once in a generation opportunity, only for them to almost immediately turn round after losing to say that as it was a close call, let's do it again. Can you trust these people? The excuse this time is Brexit, but there will always be an excuse; it has all the hallmarks of a vicious cycle of repeated demands for a referendum that could continue ad infinitum because without it the SNP has no purpose.  Personally while I think the cost of a referendum would be better spent publicly funding areas that would improve the living standards of people in Scotland, as a No voter I'd be quite happy to have another referendum tomorrow. I bet Sturgeon wouldn't. 

As long as they are in power, you may be right.

The irony, for me, about Indy is, if it did happen, the political landscape of Scottish politics would change. I voted yes last time and would do so again. I genuinely believe we would have a better government by doing so.

[Guest]

Simple majority system doesn't help. I'd rather see 60/40 to implement fundamental change.

 

 

[CF11JamTart]

16 minutes ago, Jonkel Hoon said:

Simple majority system doesn't help. I'd rather see 60/40 to implement fundamental change.

 

 

I felt similar about Brexit. 

 

I was of the view that should be 50%+1 of the electorate..  Of those eligible to vote, rather for majority of votes cast. 

 

If you vote-in an idiot for PM / FM, you'll get a chance to get rid of them in a few years. 

 

Something as fundamental as a structural change should have an absolute mandate. 

 

If a third of the electorate cannot be arsed voting, it's hardly an endorsement for a notionally irrevocable change. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by CF11JamTart

[Boab]

46 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

I felt similar about Brexit. 

 

I was of the view that should be 50%+1 of the electorate..  Of those eligible to vote, rather for majority of votes cast. 

 

If you vote-in an idiot for PM / FM, you'll get a chance to get rid of them in a few years. 

 

Something as fundamental as a structural change should have an absolute mandate. 

 

If a third of the electorate cannot be arsed voting, it's hardly an endorsement for a notionally irrevocable change. 

Quite !

The fact that just under a third of voters never showed up for the Brexit Ref, makes that void in my book.

The Scottish Indy Ref was probably the highest turnout of any electorate. Happy to be proved wrong here.

[CF11JamTart]

2 hours ago, Boab said:

Quite !

The fact that just under a third of voters never showed up for the Brexit Ref, makes that void in my book.

The Scottish Indy Ref was probably the highest turnout of any electorate. Happy to be proved wrong here.

84.6% apparently. 

 

72.2% for Brexit. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by CF11JamTart

[Roxy Hearts]

4 hours ago, henryheart said:

 

Some of those who oppose another referendum do so because last time round the SNP were saying that it was a once in a generation opportunity, only for them to almost immediately turn round after losing to say that as it was a close call, let's do it again. Can you trust these people? The excuse this time is Brexit, but there will always be an excuse; it has all the hallmarks of a vicious cycle of repeated demands for a referendum that could continue ad infinitum because without it the SNP has no purpose.  Personally while I think the cost of a referendum would be better spent publicly funding areas that would improve the living standards of people in Scotland, as a No voter I'd be quite happy to have another referendum tomorrow. I bet Sturgeon wouldn't. 

Who cares if the SNP said "once in a generation". It means nothing as democracy doesn't stop and they're not Scotland. Independence is a fluid state of mind and rightminded Scot needs a word with themselves if they think Westminster and especially Boris Johnson care what they think. Why do some Scots cringe so much? They go on holiday to independent countries and love it but the thought of their own being self governing has them moaning like wee bairns. We can manage our own affairs, it's quite simple! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

I voted yes in 2014 but I’ll definitely need to  persuaded to vote yet at the next one . I’ve a completely different view on it now . Actually before 2014 I didn’t even think about independence for Scotland really . It wasn’t a passionate burning need for me 

[Enzo Chiefo]

4 hours ago, henryheart said:

 

Some of those who oppose another referendum do so because last time round the SNP were saying that it was a once in a generation opportunity, only for them to almost immediately turn round after losing to say that as it was a close call, let's do it again. Can you trust these people? The excuse this time is Brexit, but there will always be an excuse; it has all the hallmarks of a vicious cycle of repeated demands for a referendum that could continue ad infinitum because without it the SNP has no purpose.  Personally while I think the cost of a referendum would be better spent publicly funding areas that would improve the living standards of people in Scotland, as a No voter I'd be quite happy to have another referendum tomorrow. I bet Sturgeon 

Yip. She would run a mile from it. It wouldn't be Yes/No this time - Remain/Leave is the precedent - and she wouldn't have all the dice loaded in her favour like Salmond did. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

32 minutes ago, CF11JamTart said:

84.6% apparently. 

 

72.2% for Brexit. 

72.2% was UK wide. Scotland was one of the lower turnouts for Brexit. The top 10 biggest turnout areas were all in England 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I voted yes in 2014 but I’ll definitely need to  persuaded to vote yet at the next one . I’ve a completely different view on it now . Actually before 2014 I didn’t even think about independence for Scotland really . It wasn’t a passionate burning need for me 

I've also got a completely different view. I was yes last time and even more so now. The British establishment is one of the most insulting! Hate it with a passion. I can understand the status quo as people are fearful of change but wishing to be governed by right wing British/English Nationalists is really beyond comprehension. 

 

UK debt is at eye-watering levels but, no, we cannae dae it! Honestly what have some Scots become? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I've also got a completely different view. I was yes last time and even more so now. The British establishment is one of the most insulting! Hate it with a passion. I can understand the status quo as people are fearful of change but wishing to be governed by right wing British/English Nationalists is really beyond comprehension. 

 

UK debt is at eye-watering levels but, no, we cannae dae it! Honestly what have some Scots become? 

Yes I’ll wait to see who has the better argument of the campaign but as I’ve said before it’s unlikely I’d come away from the polling station not voting Yes really . I’d never forgive myself really . I’d regret it . 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes I’ll wait to see who has the better argument of the campaign but as I’ve said before it’s unlikely I’d come away from the polling station not voting Yes really . I’d never forgive myself really . I’d regret it . 

👍it doesn't require a campaign for me. If Scots are willing to be insulted then it's lost. Imagine even saying to yourself " we're not good enough to govern our own country". It really is desperate so I wish the entrenched unionists would at least acknowledge we're capable of running our own affairs. They can't think beyond the SNP. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

👍it doesn't require a campaign for me. If Scots are willing to be insulted then it's lost. Imagine even saying to yourself " we're not good enough to govern our own country". It really is desperate so I wish the entrenched unionists would at least acknowledge we're capable of running our own affairs. They can't think beyond the SNP. 

👍👍👍

[jack D and coke]

9 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes I’ll wait to see who has the better argument of the campaign but as I’ve said before it’s unlikely I’d come away from the polling station not voting Yes really . I’d never forgive myself really . I’d regret it . 

Good man☺️

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Good man☺️

👍👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd be inclined to agree to an extent if we had a history of regular referendums (referenda?) on important issues. However, these have been few and far between in British/Scottish politics.

 

Constitutional matters are serious, granted, and people's voices ought to be heard. That doesn't necessarily mean constitutional upheaval every time a few lads that have watched Braveheart and skim-read the Declaration of Arbroath 😛 .

 

The mistake that was made in 2014 is that no time-stamp was put on the whole thing. The vague 'once in a generation' mumblings were okay, but as we see now, the more vociferous and desperate independence supporters will twist it to suit their agenda. Fair enough, that's politics. Doesn't mean it's right.

I have said before that sturgeon should compromise with Boris and they agree to have a ref but then not have another one for ‘10 years or so? Saves all the uncertainty etc and arguments in the intervening years . However the brave heart type of supporters feel that this is ever evolving so there should be no compromise . So it’s a mess really 

[henryheart]

10 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Who cares if the SNP said "once in a generation". It means nothing as democracy doesn't stop and they're not Scotland. Independence is a fluid state of mind and rightminded Scot needs a word with themselves if they think Westminster and especially Boris Johnson care what they think. Why do some Scots cringe so much? They go on holiday to independent countries and love it but the thought of their own being self governing has them moaning like wee bairns. We can manage our own affairs, it's quite simple! 

 

I appreciate that if you are a keen Nationalist and you loath the UK with a passion, which you clearly do, then you will not care. You are perfectly entitled to think this way. On the other hand, some of us are not impressed by Sturgeon and her crowd who make a  commitment, go back on it, and then spend the next decade or so committing so much hot air to this that ship that has sailed that they forget to run the economy, education and heath services.   

 

Can Scotland manage its own affairs? Yes, but even John Swinney has alluded to a very challenging decade or more should Scotland be independent. That is the crux of the matter. Some people want to walk around proclaiming themselves as proud Scots and/or as anti English/British and see an independent Scotland as a means to this. Whatever floats your boat. On the other hand there are Scots who are not so partisan and who quietly want the opportunity to be able to live a life free of austerity forced on them simply for the sake of being able to say that Scotland is independent of England.   

 

    

[Konrad von Carstein]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd be inclined to agree to an extent if we had a history of regular referendums (referenda?) on important issues. However, these have been few and far between in British/Scottish politics.

 

Constitutional matters are serious, granted, and people's voices ought to be heard. That doesn't necessarily mean constitutional upheaval every time a few lads that have watched Braveheart and skim-read the Declaration of Arbroath 😛 .

 

The mistake that was made in 2014 is that no time-stamp was put on the whole thing. The vague 'once in a generation' mumblings were okay, but as we see now, the more vociferous and desperate independence supporters will twist it to suit their agenda. Fair enough, that's politics. Doesn't mean it's right.

You could swap "independence" for "unionist" in the emboldened text imo...

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd be inclined to agree to an extent if we had a history of regular referendums (referenda?) on important issues. However, these have been few and far between in British/Scottish politics.

 

Constitutional matters are serious, granted, and people's voices ought to be heard. That doesn't necessarily mean constitutional upheaval every time a few lads that have watched Braveheart and skim-read the Declaration of Arbroath 😛 .

 

The mistake that was made in 2014 is that no time-stamp was put on the whole thing. The vague 'once in a generation' mumblings were okay, but as we see now, the more vociferous and desperate independence supporters will twist it to suit their agenda. Fair enough, that's politics. Doesn't mean it's right.

Why should a time stamp be out on it? One of things a Scottish Parliament does is give us some leveridge. If people vote to stay I’m ok with that and tbh it was settled but anyone arguing brexit doesn’t change matters isn’t being honest about it. Behind what currency will you use it was one of the corner stones of the No campaign. A time frame could mean that we have to go through x number of years of nonsense when they can do whatever like promise carbon capture then completely go backwards on a promise then they try curry favour around the end of a certain period of time to pacify. 
The biggest problem for me is Sturgeon now. There is no plan whatsoever. No vision. 
 

[Mars plastic]

10 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I've also got a completely different view. I was yes last time and even more so now. The British establishment is one of the most insulting! Hate it with a passion. I can understand the status quo as people are fearful of change but wishing to be governed by right wing British/English Nationalists is really beyond comprehension. 

 

UK debt is at eye-watering levels but, no, we cannae dae it! Honestly what have some Scots become? 

Nurse, nurse!!!

[Mars plastic]

I don't get the nats saying Brexit changes everything when you voted to leave in 2014.

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

I don't get the nats saying Brexit changes everything when you voted to leave in 2014.

 

Well we can't make it any simpler so maybe go munch crayons or something

[pablo]

27 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Why should a time stamp be out on it? One of things a Scottish Parliament does is give us some leveridge. If people vote to stay I’m ok with that and tbh it was settled but anyone arguing brexit doesn’t change matters isn’t being honest about it. Behind what currency will you use it was one of the corner stones of the No campaign. A time frame could mean that we have to go through x number of years of nonsense when they can do whatever like promise carbon capture then completely go backwards on a promise then they try curry favour around the end of a certain period of time to pacify. 
The biggest problem for me is Sturgeon now. There is no plan whatsoever. No vision. 
 

 

The Scottish parliament is a local government with devolved power granted by the sovereign parliament at Westminster. It doesn't give any leverage whatsoever in matters outside it's control. See the recent Supreme Court judgements. 

 

That's your biggest problem, well that and the fact there's not enough of your fellow Scots who agree with you.

 

Perhaps the SNP should stop standing in Holyrood elections if they don't understand what the remit of the Scottish Government is?

[Unknown user]

39 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd be inclined to agree to an extent if we had a history of regular referendums (referenda?) on important issues. However, these have been few and far between in British/Scottish politics.

 

Constitutional matters are serious, granted, and people's voices ought to be heard. That doesn't necessarily mean constitutional upheaval every time a few lads that have watched Braveheart and skim-read the Declaration of Arbroath 😛 .

 

The mistake that was made in 2014 is that no time-stamp was put on the whole thing. The vague 'once in a generation' mumblings were okay, but as we see now, the more vociferous and desperate independence supporters will twist it to suit their agenda. Fair enough, that's politics. Doesn't mean it's right.

 

Let's be honest with the other side here.

Unionists don't want independence and will come up with anything they can think of as a reason not to continue the conversation. Fine, I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

But that's no reason to accept the stifling of the democratic voice of the Scottish electorate.

We live in a country that's roundly rejected a Tory government for decades but whenever England fancies it, we get them. If England fancies leaving the EU, we're out of the EU.

 

Pathetic and impotent is not the Scotland I want, we're a strong, proud country and need to man the **** up.

 

We made the wrong decision and I'll be dead before I stop shouting about it. I honestly don't care who thinks it's too soon.

[Mars plastic]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well we can't make it any simpler so maybe go munch crayons or something

Belter. Did somebody write that one for you or did you come up with it by your own volition?

[Mars plastic]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Let's be honest with the other side here.

Unionists don't want independence and will come up with anything they can think of as a reason not to continue the conversation. Fine, I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

But that's no reason to accept the stifling of the democratic voice of the Scottish electorate.

We live in a country that's roundly rejected a Tory government for decades but whenever England fancies it, we get them. If England fancies leaving the EU, we're out of the EU.

 

Pathetic and impotent is not the Scotland I want, we're a strong, proud country and need to man the **** up.

 

We made the wrong decision and I'll be dead before I stop shouting about it. I honestly don't care who thinks it's too soon.

Not enough folk in Scotland give a toss about being in Europe or not, hence why a third of the electorate didn’t bother to vote. 
 

independence is dead and the polls show it. Time to put the tartan Kleenex away and get on with getting on. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Mars plastic said:

Belter. Did somebody write that one for you or did you come up with it by your own volition?

 

Coloured it in myself!

 

If you want to play dumb you can't complain when you get treated the same, it's basic astronomy.

[henryheart]

20 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Well we can't make it any simpler so maybe go munch crayons or something

 

Leaving the UK does not mean joining the EU; you have to be accepted in. Will Spain block it? Will we able to join when we cannot meet the financial conditions and will be at least 10 years post independence before we can?  For a thicko like me I'd appreciate some answers.