The rise and fall of The SNP.

[coconut doug]

18 minutes ago, Candy said:

Cheers.

 

I do wonder if the Alba party will just pick up mainly SNP2 and Green votes which will not impact on the supermajority.  

They are not likely to get many votes elsewhere. 

[JackLadd]

Just now, coconut doug said:

 

Scotland doesn't have a deficit. Trying to claim that it does and that it is 4 times that of rUk is even more dishonest. 

Last time I looked Scotland's exports exceeded imports but even if that has regressed and it will since Brexit i think Scotland's position would still be favourable when compared to rUk.

 

Put the crackpot pipe doon Coconut. If your Snp had any economic case for independence it would be trumpeted on every air wave. Radio silence! Channel unavailable! 

[jambostuart]

20 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

They are not likely to get many votes elsewhere. 

This is my thinking, although it does offer another alternative. I'm an independence supporter and vote Green, but I can't stand the SNP right now. Even as an independence supporter what someone said above about not getting on with the day job is so true, and I believe a lot of that started when Salmond handed over the reins.

 

Having another alternative to the SNP is no bad thing, even if it is a Salmond fronted party. His personal characteristics aside, he's much more competent than Sturgeon

[Enzo Chiefo]

31 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Scotland doesn't have a deficit. Trying to claim that it does and that it is 4 times that of rUk is even more dishonest. 

Last time I looked Scotland's exports exceeded imports but even if that has regressed and it will since Brexit i think Scotland's position would still be favourable when compared to rUk.

They have a notional deficit which will become Scotland's problem on Day 1 of independence.  Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't pay the bills.

You can divert all you want but we spend £15bn a year more than we raise in taxes. Far and away the biggest single item of expenditure is "social protection " which accounts for 30% of all our spending. 

 

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

They have a notional deficit which will become Scotland's problem on Day 1 of independence.  Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't pay the bills.

You can divert all you want but we spend £15bn a year more than we raise in taxes. Far and away the biggest single item of expenditure is "social protection " which accounts for 30% of all our spending. 

 

 

We don't spend this money. The expenditure is allocated to us e.g aircraft carriers. Pretending that Scotland is the outlier is dishonest. The outlier is London. Decentralisation or Indy will even things out more. Giving all Londoners a subsidy for living there impacts massively on the figures you think show Scotland has a deficit. It also impacts on everywhere else in the U.k.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

We don't spend this money. The expenditure is allocated to us e.g aircraft carriers. Pretending that Scotland is the outlier is dishonest. The outlier is London. Decentralisation or Indy will even things out more. Giving all Londoners a subsidy for living there impacts massively on the figures you think show Scotland has a deficit. It also impacts on everywhere else in the U.k.

We do spend that money. Aircraft carriers and defence in general,  are a drop in the ocean, no pun intended. Defence, in total, only accounts for 4% of our total spending. And we would still have to fund some kind of defence ourselves?

The only "evening out" that will happen will be to our detriment.  It's taxes from London that allow us, and the other devolved nations, to benefit from the Barnett consequentials. If the SNP are hell bent on independence then they will have to be honest with large swathes of the population,  their core support, who will suffer from the axe that will slash through public spending and, consequently,  the type of country lots of people have become accustomed to.

 

[AlimOzturk]

In the case of independence first thing we would get rid of is trident. That would save a heep of cash. 176 -200 billion pounds is the lifetime cost of these weapons of mass destruction.  
 

Pretty certain selling the four nuclear subs would more than cover Scotland’s national debt with plenty spare cash left over. 

[Pans Jambo]

Same auld shyte trumpeted every time. 
 

Unionist pretending to be experts in national expenditure and debt levels. Regugitating the last “better together” guff from 2014. 
 

Their fear smells like shite. Its running down their trooser legs. 
 

Its over boys. Move on. 

[SE16 3LN]

Some parochial Scots Nat claiming that London is a drain on Scotland's finances 😂😂😂.

 

Well in spite of the huge Social problems and cost of global population migration to London, Capital expenditure per person is still 20% less than in Scotland. The money pours out from the UK's Capital City across the UK, while Londoners live in the worst housing conditions, have the highest levels of unemployment (especially youth unemployment), the least affordable Housing (a first time buyer will require on average £135K for a deposit), the poorest health care and the worse terms and conditions of employment. It scares the shite out of me that people who post this crap about London have the future of Scottish people in their voting hands. 

[Pans Jambo]

Not only shite on here but pish as well 😂

[Roxy Hearts]

44 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Some parochial Scots Nat claiming that London is a drain on Scotland's finances 😂😂😂.

 

Well in spite of the huge Social problems and cost of global population migration to London, Capital expenditure per person is still 20% less than in Scotland. The money pours out from the UK's Capital City across the UK, while Londoners live in the worst housing conditions, have the highest levels of unemployment (especially youth unemployment), the least affordable Housing (a first time buyer will require on average £135K for a deposit), the poorest health care and the worse terms and conditions of employment. It scares the shite out of me that people who post this crap about London have the future of Scottish people in their voting hands. 

Let Scotland go and with the money you save, you can spend on London. What's not to like?

[Guest]

Alex Arthur lol

[coconut doug]

46 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

We do spend that money. Aircraft carriers and defence in general,  are a drop in the ocean, no pun intended. Defence, in total, only accounts for 4% of our total spending. And we would still have to fund some kind of defence ourselves?

The only "evening out" that will happen will be to our detriment.  It's taxes from London that allow us, and the other devolved nations, to benefit from the Barnett consequentials. If the SNP are hell bent on independence then they will have to be honest with large swathes of the population,  their core support, who will suffer from the axe that will slash through public spending and, consequently,  the type of country lots of people have become accustomed to.

 

 

The uk spends that money, not Scotland. there is no way Scotland will ever want to spend on aircraft carriers or Trident. Its not just that we couldn't afford them they have absolutely no utility whatsoever other than the UK desperately trying to be relevant. Not only are these things miltarily useless but they cast a long shadow on our ability to spend on more useful items and advertise our belligerent foreign policy and subservience to the USA for all to see. We are now tied into this for the foreseeable as any attempt to remove ourselves from this downward cycle would seriously damage the chances of our unscrupulous defence contractors from getting any scraps from the USA. This is not a future i want.

 

  It is an absolute fact that each and every individual in London and the south east benefits from the London weighting allowance. The current average for this in the public sector is around £4000. This is likely to generate around £1,000 in income tax and more in other taxes. They pay more tax because they are subsidised in their salaries by taxpayers across the UK but they will keep around 3/4 of their allowance. Why should they get more? what makes them special? 

 

  If the Unionists are hell bent on convincing Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish to remain  in the UK they will have to justify why salaries are so much higher in the south east or increasing poverty and inequality will continue to drive the UK apart. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Good luck Alex  

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/boxing/big-hitter-ex-world-champ-alex-arthur-aims-to-deliver-a-knockout-blow-for-alex-salmonds-alba-party-3182379

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, JackLadd said:

So Bribe n Lie snp doubling child benefit. Any other Barnet funded bribes coming down the pipe for May? That's 4% to NHS (uk inflation at 0.4%), a free laptop and tinternet for every wane and see that same wane....forgetful Nicola is doubling its child benefit.Child poverty ken.  Never mind the pandemic and recovery, it's a Bribe n Lie Barnet bonanza and Ayeref2 here we come.

its " wain" not " wane" . However i do agree with you regarding where is the money coming from ?  What about parents who work full time and are just above the " poverty" line where they will not be able to receive any of these benefits.  

2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

Put the crackpot pipe doon Coconut. If your Snp had any economic case for independence it would be trumpeted on every air wave. Radio silence! Channel unavailable! 

The economy is in an even worse state than 2014 . Its the SNP Achilles heel. 

2 hours ago, jambostuart said:

This is my thinking, although it does offer another alternative. I'm an independence supporter and vote Green, but I can't stand the SNP right now. Even as an independence supporter what someone said above about not getting on with the day job is so true, and I believe a lot of that started when Salmond handed over the reins.

 

Having another alternative to the SNP is no bad thing, even if it is a Salmond fronted party. His personal characteristics aside, he's much more competent than Sturgeon

Ill be voting Labour this time as my MSP helped me a lot last year with an issue. The other vote will go to Alba. 

27 minutes ago, Candy said:

Alex Arthur lol

rather petty and snooty comment. I know him and hes a decent guy 

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

Put the crackpot pipe doon Coconut. If your Snp had any economic case for independence it would be trumpeted on every air wave. Radio silence! Channel unavailable! 

 

If you were comfortable with that claim you wouldn't constantly lie about the way things work financially here.

 

Curious.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

rather petty and snooty comment. I know him and hes a decent guy 

Rumours were that ALBA were going to unveil a "big hitter" (indicating a well-known  SNP politician) but they announced an ex boxer. That seems quite amusing.

 

You'll need to explain to me how that's petty and snooty

Edited March 29, 2021 by Candy

[Enzo Chiefo]

44 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

The uk spends that money, not Scotland. there is no way Scotland will ever want to spend on aircraft carriers or Trident. Its not just that we couldn't afford them they have absolutely no utility whatsoever other than the UK desperately trying to be relevant. Not only are these things miltarily useless but they cast a long shadow on our ability to spend on more useful items and advertise our belligerent foreign policy and subservience to the USA for all to see. We are now tied into this for the foreseeable as any attempt to remove ourselves from this downward cycle would seriously damage the chances of our unscrupulous defence contractors from getting any scraps from the USA. This is not a future i want.

 

  It is an absolute fact that each and every individual in London and the south east benefits from the London weighting allowance. The current average for this in the public sector is around £4000. This is likely to generate around £1,000 in income tax and more in other taxes. They pay more tax because they are subsidised in their salaries by taxpayers across the UK but they will keep around 3/4 of their allowance. Why should they get more? what makes them special? 

 

  If the Unionists are hell bent on convincing Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish to remain  in the UK they will have to justify why salaries are so much higher in the south east or increasing poverty and inequality will continue to drive the UK apart. 

 

 

What a ridiculous argument about London subsidies! Are you seriously suggesting that makes a blind bit of difference to Scotland? It comes from English public sector spending and every extra penny spent will increase the Barnett consequentials anyway. Fair enough argue for Independence on ideological grounds but don't make up spurious claims about economic benefits. 

An independent Scotland would likely still come to an arrangement with rUK regarding defence spending. 

The welfare budget is 7.5 times higher than our defence spending so that's where savings would have to come from. An independent Scotland would require a huge cultural shift from entitlement to responsibility,  if we wanted to balance the books.

But don't think that London won't still be a huge draw for anyone from here who wants to progress their career and earn more money. Far more opportunities will exist there, as they have for decades, regardless of whether Scotland separates or not.

[JackLadd]

26 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If you were comfortable with that claim you wouldn't constantly lie about the way things work financially here.

 

Curious.

 

The Barnet Bribe Bonanza is not going to continue or be funded by SNP Scots mist if their lies succeed in breaking up Britain. The curtain will be pulled  back on all their lies in one go. You need to develop a curiosity regards where the money will come from to fill their missing 15bn and how they will pay their share of national debt. Fact is the snp have grossly mismanaged  the Scottish economy and scared away investment for 14 years. The business community do  not like or trust them.

Edited March 29, 2021 by JackLadd

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

In the case of independence first thing we would get rid of is trident. That would save a heep of cash. 176 -200 billion pounds is the lifetime cost of these weapons of mass destruction.  
 

Pretty certain selling the four nuclear subs would more than cover Scotland’s national debt with plenty spare cash left over. 

So, even assuming the soundbites about Trident - the laughable "Bairns not Bombs" myth - came true. Let's say we didn't contribute any more costs to Trident and we got rid of them along with the jobs and taxes that they support. The lifetime savings wouldn't even  cover 1 year of our deficit. 

[manaliveits105]

Has the fish offered free Krispy Kremes to 16 to 18 year olds yet ?

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

its " wain" not " wane" . 

It's actually "wean", a corruption of "wee ane" and that in turn "wee one". Commonly used by Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland as well as the West of Scotland, where I'm from👍

[manaliveits105]

1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

It's actually "wean", a corruption of "wee ane" and that in turn "wee one". Commonly used by Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland as well as the West of Scotland, where I'm from👍

Did you have to bring Mrs Budge into it 

[SwindonJambo]

7 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Did you have to bring Mrs Budge into it 

I've only just got that 🤣 Don't forgot she spells her name without an 'e'.

[Tazio]

9 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

I've only just got that 🤣 Don't forgot she spells her name without an 'e'.

Budg? 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Good luck Alex  

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/boxing/big-hitter-ex-world-champ-alex-arthur-aims-to-deliver-a-knockout-blow-for-alex-salmonds-alba-party-3182379

 

Mickey Stewart to follow suit? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

35 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

It's actually "wean", a corruption of "wee ane" and that in turn "wee one". Commonly used by Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland as well as the West of Scotland, where I'm from👍

I stand corrected.  Im a humble person 

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

I stand corrected.  Im a humble person 

So am I and I apologise if I came across otherwise. I only know because I'm a native and I used to hear it a lot when I was a 'wean' myself though I don't use it myself.

 

Really enjoy your posts on this thread btw. It's good to see some  independence supporters willing to strongly  criticise the SNP instead of following them in a cult like manner as far too many do.  I have no vote to cast  but I'm always  interested in what's going on. It's certainly going to be a very interesting election.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

24 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

So am I and I apologise if I came across otherwise. I only know because I'm a native and I used to hear it a lot when I was a 'wean' myself though I don't use it myself.

 

Really enjoy your posts on this thread btw. It's good to see some  independence supporters willing to strongly  criticise the SNP instead of following them in a cult like manner as far too many do.  I have no vote to cast  but I'm always  interested in what's going on. It's certainly going to be a very interesting election.

 

 

Cheers . No problem . Yea well I have fell out of “ like “ with the party in the last year really . I wasn’t actually an Indy supporter as such until the Ref in 2014 when I got caught up in all the Scottish hysteria around it . I hadn’t really thought about independence and had no real passion for it . However I’ve always been critical of many of the SNP policies which haven’t sat well with me to be honest .  I’ll be voting Labour as my first vote due to reasons I mentioned before and I’ll vote the Alba party as second vote . Politically I tend to be left wing . I supported Jeremy Corbyn . But I can have some views which may be considered right of centre .

[millerjames398]

3 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

It's actually "wean", a corruption of "wee ane" and that in turn "wee one". Commonly used by Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland as well as the West of Scotland, where I'm from👍

I didn't want to say, but I always thought, it was spelled wean as well.

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Cheers . No problem . Yea well I have fell out of “ like “ with the party in the last year really . I wasn’t actually an Indy supporter as such until the Ref in 2014 when I got caught up in all the Scottish hysteria around it . I hadn’t really thought about independence and had no real passion for it . However I’ve always been critical of many of the SNP policies which haven’t sat well with me to be honest .  I’ll be voting Labour as my first vote due to reasons I mentioned before and I’ll vote the Alba party as second vote . Politically I tend to be left wing . I supported Jeremy Corbyn . But I can have some views which may be considered right of centre .

You mean you consider individual issues on their own merits and take your own independent view on them as you see fit without consulting the party hymn sheet? Sacrilege! How very dare you!  😉

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

You mean you consider individual issues on their own merits and take your own independent view on them as you see fit without consulting the party hymn sheet? Sacrilege! How very dare you!  😉

Yes ! That’s about . Honesty and integrity hence I will probably vote again for Joanna Cherry in the next Westminster election 

[A Boy Named Crow]

12 hours ago, Candy said:

Cheers.

 

I do wonder if the Alba party will just pick up mainly SNP2 and Green votes which will not impact on the supermajority.  

Not the way this system works. 

The SNP gets very little return from the second votes, as they already have loads of constituency seats. 

In a lot of cases a second vote for the SNP is effectively wasted.

 

The thinking is that Alba, with no constituency seats, would be able to land more list seats off the second vote than the SNP do now. That's how they get their super majority.

 

[manaliveits105]

Swinney breaks covid rules 

the Party that just keeps on fecking up 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Swinney breaks covid rules 

the Party that just keeps on fecking up 

 

Yeah but not a big deal. Maybe rules are unclear. Campaign has started though. 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

Easy mistake to make. 

 

 

[Mikey1874]

 

[Mikey1874]

They were all socially distanced. Though it does highlight confusion about the rules.

 

 

[scott herbertson]

6 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Not the way this system works. 

The SNP gets very little return from the second votes, as they already have loads of constituency seats. 

In a lot of cases a second vote for the SNP is effectively wasted.

 

The thinking is that Alba, with no constituency seats, would be able to land more list seats off the second vote than the SNP do now. That's how they get their super majority.

 

 

 

I think that Green would be a better vote if that is the intention - they already pick up some of the 'independence second votes and if more independence minded people voted for them I think the analysis shows that would likely be more effective in delivering pro-independence seats

[scott herbertson]

This article, from last year (pre-Alba) explains the list system and 'gaming' it well

 

 

https://listvotesense.medium.com/tactical-voting-in-the-scottish-parliament-election-a-mass-delusion-deconstructed-ceb65e64754e

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

I think that Green would be a better vote if that is the intention - they already pick up some of the 'independence second votes and if more independence minded people voted for them I think the analysis shows that would likely be more effective in delivering pro-independence seats

Aye, he was claiming Alba taking second votes from the SNP wouldn't work, when the system is set up in such a way that it would. Greens, Alba, whoever. 

[scott herbertson]

3 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

Aye, he was claiming Alba taking second votes from the SNP wouldn't work, when the system is set up in such a way that it would. Greens, Alba, whoever. 

 

Yes - though with the caveat they need to get at least 5% of the vote. If Alba gets 4% of the list vote it will likely get no seats. Hence Greens probably a better bet as they are already at the threshold and support independence. They will also hold the SNP to account (eg on budget) with less acrimony and division than Alba would introduce, in my opinion.

[Cade]

I could be persuaded to go SNP #1 and Greens #2 this time around.

 

Deny votes to Salmond's mob and voting Greens would lead to more Independence supporting seats than giving 2nd vote to SNP.

[Mikey1874]

Something on tonight

 

 

[2205ian]

4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Yeah but not a big deal. Maybe rules are unclear. Campaign has started though. 

 

 

"maybe the rules are unclear".......are you joking?

 

This clown is the Deputy FM who will be at the centre of the rule making regime.

 

He clearly thinks he is above the law. Police should have issued him with a fixed penalty as clearly he is in a position to knows the rules without exception.

 

.....and let's not start on his position as education chief, when he cannot add up to 4. Just to help him out, it's 1, 2, 3, 4, and then 5

[argyjambo]

20 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

The uk spends that money, not Scotland. there is no way Scotland will ever want to spend on aircraft carriers or Trident. Its not just that we couldn't afford them they have absolutely no utility whatsoever other than the UK desperately trying to be relevant. Not only are these things miltarily useless but they cast a long shadow on our ability to spend on more useful items and advertise our belligerent foreign policy and subservience to the USA for all to see. We are now tied into this for the foreseeable as any attempt to remove ourselves from this downward cycle would seriously damage the chances of our unscrupulous defence contractors from getting any scraps from the USA. This is not a future i want.

 

  It is an absolute fact that each and every individual in London and the south east benefits from the London weighting allowance. The current average for this in the public sector is around £4000. This is likely to generate around £1,000 in income tax and more in other taxes. They pay more tax because they are subsidised in their salaries by taxpayers across the UK but they will keep around 3/4 of their allowance. Why should they get more? what makes them special? 

 

  If the Unionists are hell bent on convincing Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish to remain  in the UK they will have to justify why salaries are so much higher in the south east or increasing poverty and inequality will continue to drive the UK apart. 

 

 

Can you fully explain your understanding of London Weighting Allowance? Mine is its an allowance paid to staff who are transferred by their employers, to work in london, to offset the higher cost of living they incur. This is paid by many large companies banks, insurance, civil service from their own funds. On reading your post, it appears you think that the Govt. Subsidise everyone working in the london area, which is patently untrue.

[coconut doug]

6 minutes ago, argyjambo said:

Can you fully explain your understanding of London Weighting Allowance? Mine is its an allowance paid to staff who are transferred by their employers, to work in london, to offset the higher cost of living they incur. This is paid by many large companies banks, insurance, civil service from their own funds. On reading your post, it appears you think that the Govt. Subsidise everyone working in the london area, which is patently untrue.

 

You don't have to be transerred from anywhere to benefit from the LWA. All Workers in London and the SE get it directly or indirectly in higher wage rates. Private companies do of course pay this from their own profits but people doing exactly the same job, say in a chain store are likely to earn £4,000 more in London. This impacts significantly on the Gers figures which will show that Londoners pay more in tax. This is not however a true reflection of our economic viabilty and certainly doesn't justify people claiming that Scots don't work as hard because of it. All that is really happening is that consumers are paying higher prices to support the higher wages in London. In that sense and others London is being subsidised by the rest of the country. Londoner's also pay a lot more in property sales tax. This is not because they have better houses merely that they cost more because the better paid can aford to pay more. This too impacts on the Gers figures.

 

   The government subsidise everybody that works for them in London, in the same way. This diverts resources away from areas outside London. 

[JackLadd]

Swinney the master at withholding and hiding evidence.  Best wee corrupt country in the world since 2007. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

Looks like an advert for the Muppet Show!

Haha don’t they just  

[manaliveits105]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Something on tonight

 

 

Good no audience at least we will not have to suffer auld ayebags with kilts and  indy tshirts asking questions devised by the "party"