The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Savanta Comres research for Scotland on Sunday gave a 52-48 per cent margin for 'no', excluding those who said they were not sure. Meanwhile, a Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times gave a 51-49 per cent split, and suggested just a third believe she has been entirely honest about in the spat with Mr Salmond. 

 

See this is why referendums are a pain the arse.

 

It's nearly a 50/50 split everytime so nearly half the population are pissed off at the result.

 

Some call that democracy

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Good post

 

Questions for many.

 

Is Independence going to improve your life personally, for your family and financially ?

 

In the grand scheme of things is it really that important ? The last 6 and half years on the back of a No vote how has your life been affected ? Still putting food on the table, paying mortgages, fuel in the car, living comfortably etc ....

 

Don't throw generic facts and figures at these replies this is about you and not the politics or the views others put on a website.

 

If Independence was off the table would you vote SNP ?

 

The problem is that those against independence lack imagination, for understandable reasons of course. I see a restructuring of how Scotland works, a shifting of priorities. I see different bodies and government departments set up to work for our country and the priorities of our electorate. Scotland's very different physically from the rest of the UK if nothing else and faces different challenges, needs different approaches.

We have a modern first world economy and with a restructuring that would see a greater focus on things like poverty and housing, I see no reason even more people couldn't be living comfortably, paying their mortgages and running cars after independence.

[ri Alban]

Unionist papers printing rubbish as usual.

 

 

 

Tick Tock Traitors to Scotland and this time you'll be dealt with post independence. 

[AlimOzturk]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The problem is that those against independence lack imagination, for understandable reasons of course. I see a restructuring of how Scotland works, a shifting of priorities. I see different bodies and government departments set up to work for our country and the priorities of our electorate. Scotland's very different physically from the rest of the UK if nothing else and faces different challenges, needs different approaches.

We have a modern first world economy and with a restructuring that would see a greater focus on things like poverty and housing, I see no reason even more people couldn't be living comfortably, paying their mortgages and running cars after independence.

The problem is Smithee the politicians currently in charge of the inept SNP won’t be going away. Nor will Labour/Tory politicians. They will all still be here and in charge of this restructuring which frightens me. Sometimes I wonder if the saying “better with the devil you know” applies here. Especially at a time of national and financial crisis. 

[Maroon Sailor]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The problem is that those against independence lack imagination, for understandable reasons of course. I see a restructuring of how Scotland works, a shifting of priorities. I see different bodies and government departments set up to work for our country and the priorities of our electorate. Scotland's very different physically from the rest of the UK if nothing else and faces different challenges, needs different approaches.

We have a modern first world economy and with a restructuring that would see a greater focus on things like poverty and housing, I see no reason even more people couldn't be living comfortably, paying their mortgages and running cars after independence.

 

You say focus on things like housing.

 

Not sure about the rest of Scotland but I've never seen so many areas of Edinburgh where new builds are being constructed at the same time.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

You say focus on things like housing.

 

Not sure about the rest of Scotland but I've never seen so many areas of Edinburgh where new builds are being constructed at the same time.

IIRC the waiting list for a council house in Edinburgh is over a decade.

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

The problem is Smithee the politicians currently in charge of the inept SNP won’t be going away. Nor will Labour/Tory politicians. They will all still be here and in charge of this restructuring which frightens me. Sometimes I wonder if the saying “better with the devil you know” applies here. Especially at a time of national and financial crisis. 

I don't think they are as inept as people say and at the end of the day we'll finally have a government that's accountable to the Scottish people, one that we can change when we want once the single unifying policy is removed.

There are a lot of intelligent people who care about Scotland out there, there's no reason to assume we'd make an arse of it when so many, many other small nations have succeeded

[Mister T]

48 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Unionist papers printing rubbish as usual.

 

 

 

Tick Tock Traitors to Scotland and this time you'll be dealt with post independence. 

"Dealt with post independence"

What does that mean? And how old are you? 

[Mikey1874]

55 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The problem is that those against independence lack imagination, for understandable reasons of course. I see a restructuring of how Scotland works, a shifting of priorities. I see different bodies and government departments set up to work for our country and the priorities of our electorate. Scotland's very different physically from the rest of the UK if nothing else and faces different challenges, needs different approaches.

We have a modern first world economy and with a restructuring that would see a greater focus on things like poverty and housing, I see no reason even more people couldn't be living comfortably, paying their mortgages and running cars after independence.

 

I can see lots of things the Scottish Government can do to improve health, tackle lack of affordable housing, and even the tricky things like drug addiction. 

 

I don't 'lack imagination'. Maybe look for that at a Government in power for 14 years. 

 

 

[ri Alban]

Just now, Mister T said:

"Dealt with post independence"

What does that mean? And how old are you? 

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

[Mikey1874]

41 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

You say focus on things like housing.

 

Not sure about the rest of Scotland but I've never seen so many areas of Edinburgh where new builds are being constructed at the same time.

 

What I heard is there are around 3,200 homeless every year. 

 

But there is only funding from the Scottish Government for 1500 new council / housing association houses every year which is mainly what the homeless get. 

 

Why is that? 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Mikey1874

[Unknown user]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

I can see lots of things the Scottish Government can do to improve health, tackle lack of affordable housing, and even the tricky things like drug addiction. 

 

I don't 'lack imagination'. Maybe look for that at a Government in power for 14 years. 

Then you're missing the point of what I was getting at, you lot lack imagination in how things could be done after independence, how a change in national and institutional priorities could serve the nation and people better, viewing it only within the confines of how things are now, but worse.

[Cruyff]

Just now, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

 

Are you seeing a professional about thoughts/feelings like this? In seriousness. Please consider it if not.

[Mister T]

Just now, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

Wow 😂 You do realise that peddling nonsense like that undermines the argument for independence and makes you sound ridiculous? 

[Maroon Sailor]

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

 

Were you really an ex crabfat ?

 

WTF did the RAF do to you?! 😄

[Mikey1874]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Then you're missing the point of what I was getting at, you lot lack imagination in how things could be done after independence, how a change in national and institutional priorities could serve the nation and people better, viewing it only within the confines of how things are now, but worse.

 

So only independence supporters have imagination. 

 

We can add that to the list of arrogant, divisive new brave world you want to bring in. 

 

I think a new independent Scotland should have everyone involved to make it work. But maybe you see that differently as part of the cult.

 

Actually the way we are going Salmond supporters are out too. You just have to look at how Joanna Cherry is being treated. 

[AlimOzturk]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

As an independent country not bound by EU or UK law we could easily bring back execution for these traitorous arseholes. 
 

Personally I would go for Hung, drawn and quartered. However Crucifixion would be acceptable as well. 

[Justin Z]

15 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Wow 😂 You do realise that peddling nonsense like that undermines the argument for independence and makes you sound ridiculous? 

 

I really do not think he does, and that's the most frightening part. They're not the words of someone in a good mental state. Really hope he considers talking to a professional.

[Mikey1874]

18 minutes ago, Mister T said:

Wow 😂 You do realise that peddling nonsense like that undermines the argument for independence and makes you sound ridiculous? 

 

Only independence supporters are patriotic and care about Scotland. 

 

They'll need to find a solution for the rest of us. 

[AlimOzturk]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Only independence supporters are patriotic and care about Scotland. 

 

They'll need to find a solution for the rest of us. 

I do not think smithy is in that mind set.  He has always come across ton me anyways as balanced and reasonable. 
 

However the above is correct for large swathes of supporters on either side of the debate and it really does neither any favours at persuading the undecided. 

[ri Alban]

Oh.... I do like to be beside the seaside, oh... I do like to be beside the seas. 

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

I do not think smithy is in that mind set.  He has always come across ton me anyways as balanced and reasonable. 
 

However the above is correct for large swathes of supporters on either side of the debate and it really does neither any favours at persuading the undecided. 

 

'No supporters aren't true Scots' is helpful to any campaign against independence. 

[JamboAndrew]

I think one big worry for me is that I believe a healthy and well functioning democracy should have 3 viable and electable parties.

 

Yes, that's idealism. But I feel Scotland is such a long way away from it we would be stuck in an autocracy. A rubber stamping government that plays the nationalist card any time they have a problem. Happens all round the world unfortunately. Political parties and politicians are self centred shiesters generally, regardless of party. They need healthy competition to keep them on their toes and delivering for the people.

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

'No supporters aren't true Scots' is helpful to any campaign against independence. 

 

 

I'm thankful that is an extreme minority position, but no sense pretending it doesn't exist.

[Maroon Sailor]

21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So only independence supporters have imagination. 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, JamboAndrew said:

I think one big worry for me is that I believe a healthy and well functioning democracy should have 3 viable and electable parties.

 

Yes, that's idealism. But I feel Scotland is such a long way away from it we would be stuck in an autocracy. A rubber stamping government that plays the nationalist card any time they have a problem. Happens all round the world unfortunately. Political parties and politicians are self centred shiesters generally, regardless of party. They need healthy competition to keep them on their toes and delivering for the people.

 

Absolutely this

[Justin Z]

Just now, JamboAndrew said:

I think one big worry for me is that I believe a healthy and well functioning democracy should have 3 viable and electable parties.

 

Yes, that's idealism. But I feel Scotland is such a long way away from it we would be stuck in an autocracy. A rubber stamping government that plays the nationalist card any time they have a problem. Happens all round the world unfortunately. Political parties and politicians are self centred shiesters generally, regardless of party. They need healthy competition to keep them on their toes and delivering for the people.

 

It's interesting because I would fully expect the SNP to schism/fade away post-independence, since its reason for existence would be done with. Likewise, other parties would rise. Why is it that you don't see it that way?

[JamboAndrew]

8 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It's interesting because I would fully expect the SNP to schism/fade away post-independence, since its reason for existence would be done with. Likewise, other parties would rise. Why is it that you don't see it that way?

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert and it's just my opinion. I have worked in the UK governemnt and for foreign governments so have had a little experience.

 

Firstly, I've rarely come across a political movement who once they have any semblance of power will willingly give it up. In the west, the middle east or the east. 

 

Secondly, when working closely with political parties and politicians, their biggest fear was usually irrelevance and being replaced by their rivals. I saw them at their best when they tried to help their country's people to make sure they stayed ahead of their rivals. I saw them at their worst when they were safe and just did what they wanted for their egos.

 

And I really disliked those who used nationalism, patriotism and the like as a tool for their own gain.

 

I may be totally wrong and may be pleasantly surprised. 

 

And as for other parties. There is too much negative legacy with the conservatives and labour. Ruth Davidson is probably the most capable politician in the whole of the uk (let's ignore any party leanings for a minute) But, the conservatives could never be a force to reckon with in Scotland. 

 

And new political parties are very rarely successful unless they are hard right or left on a specific topic. And I don't find that healthy.

Edited March 7, 2021 by JamboAndrew

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It's interesting because I would fully expect the SNP to schism/fade away post-independence, since its reason for existence would be done with. Likewise, other parties would rise. Why is it that you don't see it that way?

 

ANC are pretty strong in South Africa. Not sure what the overall pattern and history. Would think independence parties are strengthened and rewarded at least for a time. 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, JamboAndrew said:

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert and it's just my opinion. I have worked in the UK governemnt and for foreign governments so have had a little experience.

 

Firstly, I've rarely come across a political movement who once they have any semblance of power will willingly give it up. In the west, the middle east or the east. 

 

Secondly, when working closely with political parties and politicians, their biggest fear was usually irrelevance and being replaced by their rivals. I saw them at their best when they tried to help their country's people to make sure they stayed ahead of their rivals. I saw them at their worst when they were safe and just did what they wanted for their egos.

 

And I really disliked those who used nationalism, patriotism and the like as a tool for their own gain.

 

I may be totally wrong and may be pleasantly surprised. 

 

Appreciate your thoughts, thanks. You make a really good point about power not being a thing easily given up.

 

I share the disdain you have felt for nationalism and patriotism being used in underhanded ways. As a Yank I know all too well how easy the slide to jingoism and bigotry are, especially over the last four years. I've always felt so welcomed by the vast majority of the Scottish independence movement, and watched as they've welcomed dozens of nationalities. Had a great time taking pictures of all the different nations' flags at the march in Edinburgh, as but one small example. It's been a very pleasant contrast to experience first-hand.

 

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

ANC are pretty strong in South Africa. Not sure what the overall pattern and history. Would think independence parties are strengthened and rewarded at least for a time. 

 

Fair shout—I do wonder how much of a political "broad church" the ANC were, pre-1990s.

[jambos are go!]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

And I get flack for calling folk like this poster the Tartan Taliban.

[Justin Z]

23 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

And I get flack for calling folk like this poster the Tartan Taliban.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you want to play victim for sinking to his level, bash on.

[Seymour M Hersh]

27 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

And I get flack for calling folk like this poster the Tartan Taliban.

 

I think you would be closer with the Tartan RA.

[SE16 3LN]

21 hours ago, Peakybunnet said:

 

Not quite, the English have a bit more Roman and French in their genes. 

Not that much Roman but 40% French (which probably explains their right wing leanings). The Scots have 44% Irish, which throws up all sorts of questions.

 

The point is of course, Nations should be about the kind of Society you want, the freedoms and ethics, the standard of living and what you want the citizens to contribute in return. Not their ****ing race, or where they were born. Unfortunately, across Europe at least, there has been a rising Nationalism with the terrifying possibility that the French will elect an openly Fascist President. 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So only independence supporters have imagination. 

 

We can add that to the list of arrogant, divisive new brave world you want to bring in. 

 

I think a new independent Scotland should have everyone involved to make it work. But maybe you see that differently as part of the cult.

 

Actually the way we are going Salmond supporters are out too. You just have to look at how Joanna Cherry is being treated. 

I don't expect you to agree, I'm not particularly arsed if you do or don't either TBH. But I'm not speaking out of arrogance, it's a simple fact that those who want independence are more into and more imaginative about how Scotland could work post independence.

 

Divisive though, yes, absolutely, I want to divide the UK.

[coconut doug]

54 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I don't expect you to agree, I'm not particularly arsed if you do or don't either TBH. But I'm not speaking out of arrogance, it's a simple fact that those who want independence are more into and more imaginative about how Scotland could work post independence.

 

Divisive though, yes, absolutely, I want to divide the UK.

 

It has to be. There is no point in an Indy Scotland becoming a smaller version of the UK with a Scottish flavour.

[Peakybunnet]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Not that much Roman but 40% French (which probably explains their right wing leanings). The Scots have 44% Irish, which throws up all sorts of questions.

 

The point is of course, Nations should be about the kind of Society you want, the freedoms and ethics, the standard of living and what you want the citizens to contribute in return. Not their ****ing race, or where they were born. Unfortunately, across Europe at least, there has been a rising Nationalism with the terrifying possibility that the French will elect an openly Fascist President. 

 

You should have taken my

 post with the tongue in cheek it was written rather than pontificate. 

 

If we want to start a race war think you will find large amounts of Scandanavian blood in both Scottish and Irish bloodlines. 

 

 

[Jeffros Furios]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

[SE16 3LN]

2 minutes ago, Peakybunnet said:

 

You should have taken my

 post with the tongue in cheek it was written rather than pontificate. 

 

If we want to start a race war think you will find large amounts of Scandanavian blood in both Scottish and Irish bloodlines. 

 

 

You should have taken my DNA comments as tongue in cheek too ya cheeky wee scamp. By the way the East Midlands appear to have the largest amount of DNA from the Scandans,

 

I'm trying to avoid a race war mate, but you know that.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

I don't expect you to agree, I'm not particularly arsed if you do or don't either TBH. But I'm not speaking out of arrogance, it's a simple fact that those who want independence are more into and more imaginative about how Scotland could work post independence.

 

Divisive though, yes, absolutely, I want to divide the UK.

 

No you are wrong.

 

Imaginative ideas are helpful certainly to make the case for independence. But to say people who favour the union don't have as much to contribute is still one of the errors of the Yes campaign. 

 

I am sure you can list say 20 imaginative policies the Scottish Government have given us in the last 14 years. Bearing in mind Scotland already has a lot of powers to improve the life of its people. 

[JackLadd]

Getting excited they might be stymied in May. To emerge from the pandemic with their referenda militancy checked would be fantastic.

[Unknown user]

34 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

No you are wrong.

 

Imaginative ideas are helpful certainly to make the case for independence. But to say people who favour the union don't have as much to contribute is still one of the errors of the Yes campaign. 

 

I am sure you can list say 20 imaginative policies the Scottish Government have given us in the last 14 years. Bearing in mind Scotland already has a lot of powers to improve the life of its people. 

Nah you're completely misrepresenting what I'm saying, I never said people who favour the Union don't have as much to contribute, and I'm not talking about the current Scottish government.

 

It's all pretty clear what I'm saying but you can think what you like, I'm not after your approval, people can see for themselves what's actually being said.

[Roxy Hearts]

26 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Getting excited they might be stymied in May. To emerge from the pandemic with their referenda militancy checked would be fantastic.

Who do you think people will vote for if that's the case? Serious question.

[JimKongUno]

55 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

No you are wrong.

 

Imaginative ideas are helpful certainly to make the case for independence. But to say people who favour the union don't have as much to contribute is still one of the errors of the Yes campaign. 

 

I am sure you can list say 20 imaginative policies the Scottish Government have given us in the last 14 years. Bearing in mind Scotland already has a lot of powers to improve the life of its people. 

 

Certainly not education, there's children in Africa with no pens and pencils that can read and write better than the kids in our schools now. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, JimKongUno said:

 

Certainly not education, there's children in Africa with no pens and pencils that can read and write better than the kids in our schools now. 

What a warped view! My kids have had great schooling and my grandkids love school. Just an excuse to SG bash as per usual. I presume you're a unionist?

[argyjambo]

6 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Not to old yet, to dish out the penalty for treason. By Scottish government consent post independence. 

Your avatar sums you up perfectly,..........Howling at the moon!

[JackLadd]

57 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Who do you think people will vote for if that's the case? Serious question.

 

Anybody but the corrupt snp and their enablers. 

[Roxy Hearts]

34 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Anybody but the corrupt snp and their enablers. 

Which parts of devolved governance have they corrupted?

[JamboAndrew]

2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

Getting excited they might be stymied in May. To emerge from the pandemic with their referenda militancy checked would be fantastic.

 

I hope you're right. But I don't see who even the protest vote is. Never mind the alternative.

 

A healthy democracy has options. Unfortunately Scotland, and more and more the uk, has become an autocracy. That's why schools can literally fall down and the political repercussions are minimal. Or our once famous education system can nose dive and there is no opposition waiting in the wings to be voted in. And as things get worse, people will always cling more to visions of grandeur from politicians put to make their mark in history.

 

Ignoring opinions on whether independence would be more positive or more negative for the country, I just want a competitive political landscape where several parties with credible competing visions for Scotland future fight it out.

 

Maybe I'm just jaded by politics in general.