The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Governor Tarkin]

5 minutes ago, theshed said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

9 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

 

 

 

 

Check out the silly plebs believing opinion polls now. 😁

[Governor Tarkin]

2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Check out the silly plebs believing opinion polls now. 😁

 

[ri Alban]

The Sunday Mail

 

[OTT]

19 hours ago, JDK2020 said:

 

Great post.

Her supreme arrogance got the better of her at that Covid meeting, and is, perhaps, an insight into her megalomania. It was a dreadful thing to say and completely inappropriate in the circumstances.

It is never healthy when political leaders surround themselves with only yes men and women as there is no-one to check any excesses.

There are now obviously real concerns among a number of SNP heavy hitters (not the collection of muppets who hang on her every word for the easy money it brings them) who have now caught up with the majority of us who believe that Sturgeon is unfit to lead the country. 

 

I think she may well struggle to control herself effectively when she appears before Wednesday's committee, even with the SNP members undoubtedly giving her an easy ride. Could be interesting.

 

And yes, Salmond and his supporters are now a far more effective opposition to Sturgeon than any of the other parties.

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to add onto the megalomania point, she's essentially not allowed any other member of the party to build a strong profile. Look at Keith Brown, never heard of and seen. Contrast that with how much of a platform she was given under Salmond. 

 

She needs to go IMO, but I don't know who succeeds her. It looks like to me that Angus Robertson is being positioned to take over assuming he wins the Edinburgh central seat, but if that doesn't happen and Sturgeon ends up being forced to stand down then I'm not sure who takes over. 

[Governor Tarkin]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

The Sunday Mail

 

 

You've got to admit though, it was a mildly amusing tabloid style headline.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Governor Tarkin

[ri Alban]

 

Yet the Brits can cover up and lie and steal without condemnation. But Alex Salmond touches people without permission and its Nicola Sturgeon's fault. 

 

 

🤣

 

 

Maybe she should just have let covid do its worst. 

[JDK2020]

On 27/02/2021 at 11:20, Auldbenches said:

I know, two politicians fall out and Scotland is now a banana republic. 

 

 

Except it's not just two politicians falling out, is it? Politicians fall out all the time. If you cannot, or will not see this as something completely different then you are evidently lying to yourself.

This "fall out" is of gigantic proportions any way you care to look at it. It's a fall out between the previous FM and the present FM.

They were close colleagues, collaborators, supporters of each other over decades. Salmond was her mentor, she the deputy who learned from him. They were a virtual double act for the SNP and their policies.

That was then, but now?

Now they both hate each other's guts.

He is claiming she conspired with her colleagues in government and elsewhere to jail him for numerous charges of sexual abuse up to and including attempted rape. He further claims that she is behind the suppression of evidence he is willing to provide proving this.

She despises him so much she was willing to see him in jail on trumped up charges. (That's the sort of thing you could believe of North Korea, or communist China...or maybe a banana republic.)

 

Yeah, "two politicians fall out".  😆

[coconut doug]

23 hours ago, Justin Z said:

Weird though how a metric **** ton of legal experts felt strongly enough that nothing like any of that was happening, that they felt compelled to write an open letter condemning the peddling of such conspiracy theories and coming to the defence of the Crown Office.

 

YoonAnon

 

3 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Here it is again

 

I don't subscribe to the Murdoch empire so i can only assume that a bunch of legal experts are defending the legal system that serves them so well and the rest of us not so well. The litle bit that i could read quotes Douglas Ross too so that's a different form of expertise.

 

 Are we expected to just believe these people because of their position and because they feel strongly enough about it? Do they have any evidence to prove that a conspiracy did not take place?

 

  If they wanted to demonstrate their impartiality perhaps they could have allowed all the evidence to be shown which includes all forms of correspondence around interested parties. Perhaps they could have released this information when it was asked for instead of denying it ever existed only to subsequently release some of it to another body. Maybe they should have realised the inadequacy of their procedures before the judicial review instead of indulging in brinksmanship by waiting until the very last moment to collapse their case on the advice of their independent counsel. Should they not be transparent enough to publish this advice or do they have something to hide?

 

        Would it not be reasonble to expect them to construct a coherent indictment against Salmond if they had the evidence to do so rather than promote their case through the tabloid press in what was a clear contempt of court designed to seriously jeopordise Salmond's chances of getting a fair trial. Why would the crown office expose themselves in this way if they were not being pressured into doing so? Was it because of the humiliation of the unstateable case they were going to present to the Judicial Review? Why wont they let us see the advice they got on this matter as that would be likely to clarify their motivations and course of actions at the time? Why was there no sanction for the leaker and no investigation by the police when the source of the leak is known to come from a very small group of people. 

 

     Why were two of the complainers forced to go to court against their expressed wishes? Were the interests and feelings of the allegedly abused deemed not be important in the context of the bigger prize?

 

      All of this and much more show that the Crown office is massively compromised. They had no case against against Salmond and they had no jurisdiction or competent procedure for an internal investigation as he was no longer a minister. The crown office are undoudtedly incompetent and hopelessly embroiled in the political machinations of the SG leaderhip and spads. How much of their behaviour was inspired by a desire to damage Salmond and how much done to try and cover their own arses doesn't really matter as they did not act in the public interest. 

 

   There are many other elements to this situation which reflect badly on Scottish institutions we should be glad that Salmond has provided us with yet another insight into the corruption that pervades Scottish and British society. The fact that many do not understand that it is corruption or want to admit that it is, is proof of their vested interest in maintaining the current system and their sense of entitlement. 

[JackLadd]

Their ship of fools and liars in tatters with the pirate vessels captain about to go overboard. Happy days!! ✌️✌️

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

Their ship of fools and liars in tatters with the pirate vessels captain about to go overboard. Happy days!! ✌️✌️

What's happening at Westminster?

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, JDK2020 said:

 

Except it's not just two politicians falling out, is it? Politicians fall out all the time. If you cannot, or will not see this as something completely different then you are evidently lying to yourself.

This "fall out" is of gigantic proportions any way you care to look at it. It's a fall out between the previous FM and the present FM.

They were close colleagues, collaborators, supporters of each other over decades. Salmond was her mentor, she the deputy who learned from him. They were a virtual double act for the SNP and their policies.

That was then, but now?

Now they both hate each other's guts.

He is claiming she conspired with her colleagues in government and elsewhere to jail him for numerous charges of sexual abuse up to and including attempted rape. He further claims that she is behind the suppression of evidence he is willing to provide proving this.

She despises him so much she was willing to see him in jail on trumped up charges. (That's the sort of thing you could believe of North Korea, or communist China...or maybe a banana republic.)

 

Yeah, "two politicians fall out".  😆

Do you think he didn't.

 

I'd make sure I did everything in my power that someone who acted like AS was put in prison. Not a problem. 

[ri Alban]

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Their ship of fools and liars in tatters with the pirate vessels captain about to go overboard. Happy days!! ✌️✌️

Boris and Co been arrested yet? 

[JackLadd]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

What's happening at Westminster?

 

 

This. 

[ri Alban]

Just now, JackLadd said:

 

 

This. 

110, 000 dead in England. That's a prison sentence for Boris and his fecking clowns. The vaccine ain't covering up any of this shit. 

[JackLadd]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

110, 000 dead in England. That's a prison sentence for Boris and his fecking clowns. The vaccine ain't covering up any of this shit. 

 

That'll be the 90% effective English vaccine that my parents got as we are part of the UK. Along with all the workers being paid most of their wages since March 20. Lucky white heather and snp lies don't pay bills and vaccinate people.

Edited February 28, 2021 by JackLadd

[JDK2020]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Do you think he didn't.

 

I'd make sure I did everything in my power that someone who acted like AS was put in prison. Not a problem. 

 

All the wee rolling about emojis in the world will never disguise or eliminate the bald truth that a jury - with a majority of them women, and a female judge presiding, heard all the evidence and every last bit of it was disbelieved. That is why Salmond walked.*

 

I'm guessing that like Sturgeon, you would now simply just like to besmirch the character of those jury members rather than believe that there is something very much rotten at the core of this country.

 

*I would bet that you were one of the ones who saw it as a victory when Salmond walked. Now, that he has his sights set on Sturgeon for her role in it you want him to swing. 

[manaliveits105]

Here we go again 

Currency - snp didnt have a clue 7 years ago and unbelievably they still cant say with any certainty whatsover what we would use.

We dont have a central bank

We were told by Salmond 7 years ago we would be self sufficient within 2 years - we would in fact have been bankrupt 

(like the Irish were before being bailed out)

Our Oil - prices collapsed still only about $60 a barrel which is the level that experts say is not worth bothering with in North Sea and 35 years estimated left 

Despite Sturgeons claims there is no guarantee we would get back into EU especially with our current deficit - if allowed it could take years

there is no way we would walk away without a share of the UK national debt

How would exchange rates affect Pensions etc if we had a separate currency

How will exports /imports to rUK be affected our biggest customer 

Our politicians do not inspire any confidence in WM or Holyrood and admit that would more than likely be up to 10 years of austerity if we gain independence. 

We aspire to be Norway where taxation and cost of living is astronomical and although incomes are higher theres no way that would happen here at for at least a few years but yes we would all pay more tax straight away 

The SG cannot be trusted apparently.

River City is piss I prefer East Enders 

Now is not the time after all the shit we have gone through over the last few years.

It may be something I would support in a generation when we have rid ourselves of the charlatan politicians we have in place at the moment we need fresh blood fresh thinking and positivity - people that when you asked what currency would we use would straight away say - The rupee because x y z  and know what they were talking about 

oh and rid ourselves of weirdos that paint their faces and wear kilts and march up and down .

here endeth the lesson

 

[Governor Tarkin]

 

[Auldbenches]

1 hour ago, JDK2020 said:

 

Except it's not just two politicians falling out, is it? Politicians fall out all the time. If you cannot, or will not see this as something completely different then you are evidently lying to yourself.

This "fall out" is of gigantic proportions any way you care to look at it. It's a fall out between the previous FM and the present FM.

They were close colleagues, collaborators, supporters of each other over decades. Salmond was her mentor, she the deputy who learned from him. They were a virtual double act for the SNP and their policies.

That was then, but now?

Now they both hate each other's guts.

He is claiming she conspired with her colleagues in government and elsewhere to jail him for numerous charges of sexual abuse up to and including attempted rape. He further claims that she is behind the suppression of evidence he is willing to provide proving this.

She despises him so much she was willing to see him in jail on trumped up charges. (That's the sort of thing you could believe of North Korea, or communist China...or maybe a banana republic.)

 

Yeah, "two politicians fall out".  😆

But how does that reflect on Scotland as a country?  It is basically two politicians from the same party falling out.

Patel broke the ministerial code twice and got away with it.  Does that make the uk banana republic? 

You are happy to see this as something that reflects on the whole of Scottish politics because it suits your agenda. 

There is a lot more corruption in Westminster than up here but that means Scotland couldn't go it alone? 

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Auldbenches said:

But how does that reflect on Scotland as a country?  It is basically two politicians from the same party falling out.

Patel broke the ministerial code twice and got away with it.  Does that make the uk banana republic? 

You are happy to see this as something that reflects on the whole of Scottish politics because it suits your agenda. 

There is a lot more corruption in Westminster than up here but that means Scotland couldn't go it alone? 

Good point. Her behaviour with Israel was treasonous.

I'm not a fan of the SNP (I am pro indy) but everyone knows the driving force behind the media frenzy is a desperate desire to halt the advances in support for independence. That's not to say the guilty parties , whoever they are, shouldn't face the full force of the law. 

[Auldbenches]

Just now, NANOJAMBO said:

Good point. Her behaviour with Israel was treasonous.

I'm not a fan of the SNP (I am pro indy) but everyone knows the driving force behind the media frenzy is a desperate desire to halt the advances in support for independence. That's not to say the guilty parties , whoever they are, shouldn't face the full force of the law. 

This is an snp issue not anything to do with our ability to do things for ourselves.  

Funny seeing people trying to portray it that way. 

If this is an indication of how Scotland would be, compared to Westminster we'll be alright.  Look at the current issues down there with the PPE contracts, that's the sort of thing that defines a banana republic.  

 

[NANOJAMBO]

2 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

This is an snp issue not anything to do with our ability to do things for ourselves.  

Funny seeing people trying to portray it that way. 

If this is an indication of how Scotland would be, compared to Westminster we'll be alright.  Look at the current issues down there with the PPE contracts, that's the sort of thing that defines a banana republic.  

 

Raab refuses to disclose , breaks the law and refuses to apologise for his behaviour.

Yeah, that would be a good definition of a banana republic. 

[Don Dan]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/no-vote-leads-first-scottish-independence-poll-in-22-amid-alex-salmond-controversy-3149474

 

The latest polling from Survation shows 44 per cent of Scots would support staying in the UK if a referendum were held tomorrow, with 43 choosing to leave.

Once the “don’t knows” are removed, the sides are deadlocked at 50-50 in a shock poll that comes after 22 consecutive polls showing a majority would vote for independence.

 

Undertaken by Sunday Mail, the poll also shows a majority now believe the SNP have been in power for “too long”.

It comes after a difficult week for the SNP, that saw Nicola Sturgeon’s party hauled over the coals by her predecessor Alex Salmond during a sensational evidence session.

Quizzing 1001 Scots on Thursday and Friday, it also found half believe the First Minister should resign if she is found to have broken the rules.Just 33 per cent think Ms Sturgeon should continue in those circumstances, with 17 per cent unsure.

The polling also revealed 39 per cent believe there has been a Government cover-up over the handling of sexual harassment claims against Mr Salmond, compared to 32 per cent who do not.

 

 

Asked if the handling of claims against the former FM was a failure of Government, 44 per cent said it was.

However, voters were less convinced by Mr Salmond's suggestion there was a plot to damage his reputation.

Just 32 per cent agreed with his statement, compared to 34 per cent disagreeing.

Mr Salmond made his long-awaited appearance at a Scottish Parliament inquiry on Friday, where he gave an account to the committee of meetings he had with Ms Sturgeon that appeared to contradict her version of events.

Giving evidence to the Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish Government’s botched investigation of sexual harassment claims against him, Mr Salmond also said Scotland’s “leadership has failed” and called for the Lord Advocate and the head of Scotland’s civil service, Permanent Secretary Leslie Evans, to resign over the handling of the complaints against him.

Ms Sturgeon has previously insisted there is “not a shred of evidence” there was a conspiracy against Mr Salmond and has denied lying to Parliament.

She is scheduled to appear before the committee on Wednesday, and her spokesman said she “looks forward” to addressing issues Mr Salmond raised.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Boy Daniel

[Governor Tarkin]

19 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Look at the current issues down there with the PPE contracts, that's the sort of thing that defines a banana republic.  

 

 

15 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Raab refuses to disclose , breaks the law and refuses to apologise for his behaviour.

Yeah, that would be a good definition of a banana republic. 

 

 

The overt cronyism is disgusting and should be the stuff that kick starts popular uprising.

It's two fingers up to practically every man, woman, and child on these islands.

The 'establishment' once again proving that it is more or less bullet proof.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Governor Tarkin

[Cade]

37 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

 

 

Undertaken by Sunday Mail,

 

Stopped reading right there.

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

 

Stopped reading right there.

Thereby Limiting your objective assessment of what’s going on.

[Cade]

Not sure any poll commissioned by Der Mail or the Hootsman can in any way be trusted.

 

[Don Dan]

Appearing before a Holyrood inquiry on Friday, Mr Salmond launched an astonishing attack under oath on Ms Sturgeon's leadership - and accused her of multiple breaches of the Ministerial Code and of misleading parliament.

He disputed her account of their meetings at her home, saying she was aware beforehand that they were arranged to discuss complaints to the Government about him.

However, he said he was unable to talk about some aspects of the crucial meetings because of legal restrictions.

Now he will give evidence to the second inquiry led by James Hamilton, QC.

If this probe establishes Ms Sturgeon broke even one of the rules governing ministerial conduct, she will face calls for her resignation - just weeks before the crucial Scottish parliament election.

Mr Salmond's delivery of evidence to the Holyrood inquiry highlights the astonishing levels of bitterness that now exist between the former SNP leader and Ms Sturgeon - a pair who for many years seemed to have forged one of the most rock-solid partnerships in politics.

 

 

 

Last night, sources confirmed he will speak directly to Mr Hamilton, the former director of public prosecutions in Ireland, by video link tomorrow or on Tuesday.

They said it could be even more devastating than the evidence he gave to the committee on Friday.

That is because he will not be limited in what he can talk about by the Crown Office and Holyrood lawyers.

It is also understood Mr Hamilton has received evidence from Geoff Aberdein, Mr Salmond's former chief of staff, whose evidence to the Holyrood committee could not be published.

If that corroborates Mr Salmond's version of events, rather than Ms Sturgeon's, it could dramatically increase pressure on the First Minister.

The evidence is said to include claims she knew of harassment allegations 'weeks earlier' than she admitted.

It also suggests Ms Sturgeon's team leaked the identity of a sexual assault complainant against the former first minister - which Ms Sturgeon rejects.

 

 

 

But it is Mr Hamilton's conclusion which will carry the most weight. He is expected to deliver his report to Ms Sturgeon next week.

Sources close to Mr Salmond believe his evidence to Mr Hamilton will be more devastating than when he faced the committee.

One said: 'Alex will be able to go further in his evidence, as he is not acting under some bar - as is the case with the committee - imposed by the Crown Office.

'Mr Hamilton has, of course, not redacted any of evidence (unlike the committee), or Geoff Aberdein's evidence, and Alex will certainly be happy to answer any questions he has to ask.

'But, as he said on Friday, it will then be up to Mr Hamilton and the committee.'

One committee source said: 'It comes down to whether the claims Alex Salmond makes can be corroborated. We know that James Hamilton has spoken to Geoff Aberdein and others.

'If they have corroborated Mr Salmond's claims, it's going to be very difficult for the First Minister to rebut allegations she breached the Ministerial Code. She can't be forced to resign for breaching the code, but it makes it very difficult.

[Auldbenches]

52 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/no-vote-leads-first-scottish-independence-poll-in-22-amid-alex-salmond-controversy-3149474

 

The latest polling from Survation shows 44 per cent of Scots would support staying in the UK if a referendum were held tomorrow, with 43 choosing to leave.

Once the “don’t knows” are removed, the sides are deadlocked at 50-50 in a shock poll that comes after 22 consecutive polls showing a majority would vote for independence.

 

Undertaken by Sunday Mail, the poll also shows a majority now believe the SNP have been in power for “too long”.

It comes after a difficult week for the SNP, that saw Nicola Sturgeon’s party hauled over the coals by her predecessor Alex Salmond during a sensational evidence session.

Quizzing 1001 Scots on Thursday and Friday, it also found half believe the First Minister should resign if she is found to have broken the rules.Just 33 per cent think Ms Sturgeon should continue in those circumstances, with 17 per cent unsure.

The polling also revealed 39 per cent believe there has been a Government cover-up over the handling of sexual harassment claims against Mr Salmond, compared to 32 per cent who do not.

 

 

Asked if the handling of claims against the former FM was a failure of Government, 44 per cent said it was.

However, voters were less convinced by Mr Salmond's suggestion there was a plot to damage his reputation.

Just 32 per cent agreed with his statement, compared to 34 per cent disagreeing.

Mr Salmond made his long-awaited appearance at a Scottish Parliament inquiry on Friday, where he gave an account to the committee of meetings he had with Ms Sturgeon that appeared to contradict her version of events.

Giving evidence to the Holyrood inquiry into the Scottish Government’s botched investigation of sexual harassment claims against him, Mr Salmond also said Scotland’s “leadership has failed” and called for the Lord Advocate and the head of Scotland’s civil service, Permanent Secretary Leslie Evans, to resign over the handling of the complaints against him.

Ms Sturgeon has previously insisted there is “not a shred of evidence” there was a conspiracy against Mr Salmond and has denied lying to Parliament.

She is scheduled to appear before the committee on Wednesday, and her spokesman said she “looks forward” to addressing issues Mr Salmond raised.

The snp have been on power for less time than the Tories.  Does that mean they've been there too long as well? 

I think the Westminster voting system gives us decades of tbe same party in power.  18 years tory, 13 labour and another 12 years for the Tories shows that one party having control is just as much, if not more, a Westminster problem than Holyrood.  

The snp are only a means to an end for a lot of people and aren't going to run Scotland forever. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

16 minutes ago, Cade said:

Not sure any poll commissioned by Der Mail or the Hootsman can in any way be trusted.

 

Can you list the polling companies we can trust? Presumably anyone that shows SNP in front is kosher and anyone that doesn't is unreliable. 

 

[manaliveits105]

Whataboooot the toaries though 

[Unknown user]

We should have a vote on it

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, Candy said:

That would be a half decent post if it was just the last paragraph 

 

#bekind

 

I agree, and I'd rather have written a half decent post.

 

But circumstances.  Ah well, c'est la vie.

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, theshed said:

 

 

 

Is there anything about voting intentions in the forthcoming election? 

 

If this issue is having an effect on voting intentions in an independence referendum, I'd imagine it's also having an effect on party preferences.  It would be interesting to see the extent to which SNP support is slipping (if it is), and also to see who is gaining as a result.

[Tazio]

I think the recent business has made quite a few people, certainly people I know, realise that Nicola Sturgeon is a politician and not some figurehead for all that is decent in humanity. A lot of people I know who are intelligent and decent types had this idea that she transcended normal politics and everything she did was driven fairness and caring for people. All politicians are capable of behind the scenes machinations and shady business, you don’t become a leader of a party without knowing how to manipulate people and make deals to suit your agenda. Of course there are levels of this with shitbags like Johnson at the top of the pile. 

[Auldbenches]

18 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Whataboooot the toaries though 

If one party is being criticised for being in power too long then that has to apply to them all?  

I can't see how two people falling out shows Scotland in a bad light but not when it happens in Westminster.  

[Don Dan]

37 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

Does that mean they've been there too long as well? 

Very much so. The reality is that Corbyn was leader for Labour and he won the election for the Tories. IMO 

[Don Dan]

18 minutes ago, Smithee said:

We should have a vote on it

We will come May if it goes ahead.

[Auldbenches]

3 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I think the recent business has made quite a few people, certainly people I know, realise that Nicola Sturgeon is a politician and not some figurehead for all that is decent in humanity. A lot of people I know who are intelligent and decent types had this idea that she transcended normal politics and everything she did was driven fairness and caring for people. All politicians are capable of behind the scenes machinations and shady business, you don’t become a leader of a party without knowing how to manipulate people and make deals to suit your agenda. Of course there are levels of this with shitbags like Johnson at the top of the pile. 

Thinking we had a new approach to politics is the biggest dissapointed in this.  Maybe out fault for falling for it. 

I'd does show that politicians are the same everywhere. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Auldbenches said:

But how does that reflect on Scotland as a country?  It is basically two politicians from the same party falling out.

Patel broke the ministerial code twice and got away with it.  Does that make the uk banana republic? 

You are happy to see this as something that reflects on the whole of Scottish politics because it suits your agenda. 

There is a lot more corruption in Westminster than up here but that means Scotland couldn't go it alone? 

 

It's not about Westminster.

 

And, BION, it's not about independence - not directly, anyway.  It's about the SNP, and then it's relevant to independence.

 

If this was a pair of politicians who had been sniping and needling away at each other for 20 years we could dismiss this as "two politicians from the same party falling out".  But that's not what's happening here.  These are the two most significant figures of the SNP over the last 16 years.  They supported each other to ensure that they and not others would lead the party, lead it into government, and lead the independence campaign.  In effect, they combined to capture and dominate the political high ground of the SNP and the independence movement.  A falling out between these two is a matter of real significance.

[Auldbenches]

1 minute ago, Boy Daniel said:

Very much so. The reality is that Corbyn was leader for Labour and he won the election for the Tories. IMO 

I agree and think Sarwar will have the same effect up here.  

I thought the Holyrood system was designed to avoid all this.  

[Don Dan]

The SNP, Salmond and Sturgeon are inextricably linked together with independence. 
 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Boy Daniel

[Auldbenches]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

It's not about Westminster.

 

And, BION, it's not about independence - not directly, anyway.  It's about the SNP, and then it's relevant to independence.

 

If this was a pair of politicians who had been sniping and needling away at each other for 20 years we could dismiss this as "two politicians from the same party falling out".  But that's not what's happening here.  These are the two most significant figures of the SNP over the last 16 years.  They supported each other to ensure that they and not others would lead the party, lead it into government, and lead the independence campaign.  In effect, they combined to capture and dominate the political high ground of the SNP and the independence movement.  A falling out between these two is a matter of real significance.

But it doesn't reflect on our ability to govern ourselves.  It is tbe biggest political part story for year up here but I can't see how this effects our ability to run things ourselves. 

The snp aren't guaranteed to be the party in power if we go it alone. 

 

[Auldbenches]

3 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

The SNP, Salmond and Sturgeon are inextricably linked together with independence. 

But that reflects badly on everyone in Scotland?  You'll need to explain why. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Auldbenches

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Auldbenches said:

But that reflects badly on everyone in Scotland?  You'll need to explain why. 

Why it reflects badly on Scotland?

[Don Dan]

3 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

But that reflects badly on everyone in Scotland?  You'll need to explain why. 

I’m not saying it reflects badly on Scotland I’m pointing out a fact. 
Not everybody in Scotland are SNP voters just the same as not everyone voted for independence. 
None of these facts reflects badly on everyone in Scotland. 
 

[Governor Tarkin]

12 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I agree and think Sarwar will have the same effect up here.  

 

 

Give the guy a chance.

[Ulysses]

Just now, Auldbenches said:

But it doesn't reflect on our ability to govern ourselves.  It is tbe biggest political part story for year up here but I can't see how this effects our ability to run things ourselves. 

The snp aren't guaranteed to be the party in power if we go it alone. 

 

 

Yes, but are you yourself falling for the trap of conflating the SNP and independence?  If so, you'd be in the same place as the OP and many others posting on the thread.  This thread is supposed to be about the SNP itself.  It's not of course, and I understand why.

 

In an ideal world, we should be able to separate questions of politics from questions of constitution.  Our systems and structures, including national sovereignty, should be capable of being built and thriving regardless of politics, political parties and personalities.  But they aren't.  We've seen recently in the United States how a constitutional system can fall foul of politics and personalities.  History (and current affairs) shows that independence or sovereignty movements often depend on a single political party or campaign to carry them out.  In 1918, Sinn Féin won a landslide in Ireland at the general election, effectively voting part of Ireland out of the UK.  They got 47% of the vote in Ireland, but won 65% in the area that would become independent.  In its own way, the ANC in South Africa is a similar example.

 

Does that mean that Scottish independence has to be linked to the SNP?  Is it possible to have an independence movement that genuinely transcends party loyalties?  Catalonia faces a similar question.

 

For now, the immediate issue is how the tensions in the SNP will affect election support.  It has no meaning at all for Scotland's ability to govern itself.  Countries have political shenanigans going on all the time while getting on with running their affairs.

[jack D and coke]

44 minutes ago, Auldbenches said:

I agree and think Sarwar will have the same effect up here.  

I thought the Holyrood system was designed to avoid all this.  

They set holyrood up to foil the SNP. It was meant to ensure they never got this amount of power. 
#fail 

Galloway was saying it was a design fault the other day too  

Sarwar is soiled goods. Scottish Labour are ****ed until the day they attempt to engage with the possibility of independence.
You actually think someone would’ve seen that by now but they still have an arrogance that Scotland should be theirs. 

More years in the wilderness awaits and another few leaders to go through yet.