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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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24 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

That's after 7 years of their fiendish plan to replace 55k nawbags each year with their free laptop and tinternet school wains. SNP are like having Attila and Genghis at the city gates offering you a quick death. 

Scummy

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4 hours ago, XB52 said:

Latest opinion poll for that nationalist rag the Times has SNP at 52% constituency votes and Greens at 13% on the list. That fall's getting worse😊😊

 

4 hours ago, pablo said:

 

You've obviously seen the front page then? Remind us where the poll has support for independence please?

 

Thought not.......

20210505_063206.jpg

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Unknown user
1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

 

Thought not.......

20210505_063206.jpg

 

Holyrood majority? Well that can't be right, that would be better than now and, as we all know, the SNP are falling

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2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Holyrood majority? Well that can't be right, that would be better than now and, as we all know, the SNP are falling

 

Not questioning that. Just wondered why @XB52 chose to reference the poll and the newspaper, but chose to omit the bit he doesn't like?

 

Just like you.

 

 

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Unknown user
2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Not questioning that. Just wondered why @XB52 chose to reference the poll and the newspaper, but chose to omit the bit he doesn't like?

 

Just like you.

 

 

 

Well this is a thread about the SNP and you showed a national headline about the SNP.

 

I rarely talk about independence opinion polls, they're so flighty, and anyway there's a pretty big one coming tomorrow I hear which will be a lot more definitive. 

 

But I am RIGHT up for a vote to see who has the majority, if you're so confident I'm sure you'll welcome the opportunity too.

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Maroon Sailor

Sturgeon has got the Scottish electorate on a piece of string.

 

She knows as long as she bangs the Indy drum she gets in but won't call for a referendum unless she knows she can win.

 

So she stays in power despite dividing the nation and numerous failings with the day job.

 

 

Edited by Maroon Sailor
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Just now, Smithee said:

 

Well this is a thread about the SNP and you showed a national headline about the SNP.

 

I rarely talk about independence opinion polls, they're so flighty, and anyway there's a pretty big one coming tomorrow I hear which will be a lot more definitive. 

 

But I am RIGHT up for a vote to see who has the majority, if you're so confident I'm sure you'll welcome the opportunity too.

 

There's no independence poll coming tomorrow and there's no democratic mandate for having a further independence referendum.

 

We've had one.

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Unknown user
Just now, pablo said:

 

There's no independence poll coming tomorrow and there's no democratic mandate for having a further independence referendum.

 

We've had one.

 

No of course, I should have said opinion poll.  But as I say, independence opinion polls themselves are of very limited interest to me given the closeness of the results and the tolerances involved.

 

Not sure why we're having an election tomorrow mind. We've had one. That's how democracy works, right?

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jack D and coke
16 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

There's no independence poll coming tomorrow and there's no democratic mandate for having a further independence referendum.

 

We've had one.

Depends on what you read or listen to. 
8 years apart not really that unusual especially when things have changed pretty dramatically with leaving the EU. I’m not abdicating for remain or leave but it’s a pretty big change in circumstance. 
 

The assertion that referenda can only happen once in a generation is not backed up by practice elsewhere. For instance, only last year New Caledonia repeated its referendum on independence from France merely two years after the initial poll of 2018. Continued association with Paris won on both occasions.

In fact, holding a second referendum after some seven or, in actual fact perhaps more likely, eight years, seems quite reasonable in a democratic society. This would be two full electoral cycles for most states. In addition, Scotland can point to the fundamental change in circumstances brought about by Brexit.

The UK as a whole opted to leave the EU with a slim majority of 51.9 to 48.1 per cent. In Scotland a more sizeable majority of 62 to 38 percent expressed itself in favour of remaining. Moreover, Nicola Sturgeon claims that the views from Edinburgh were not represented as fully in the Brexit process as had been agreed with Downing Street.

Scotland can also appeal to the principle of self-determination in international law. This principle was recently affirmed once more by the International Court of Justice in the Chagos Islands advisory proceedings brought by the United Nations General Assembly in relation to the UK. However, that case concerned a colonial territory. Colonial peoples enjoy a positive right to independence, even if the metropolitan state resists.

It is disputed whether this right also applies outside of the colonial context. But at least in this instance it cannot be doubted that Scotland is inhabited by an established nation historically tied to a clearly defined territory. Through devolution this distinct and territorially defined population has demonstrated the ability to govern itself.

 

Article here...

https://www.lcil.cam.ac.uk/blog/could-scotland-stage-independence-referendum-without-uk-approval-what-law-says-prof-marc-weller

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manaliveits105

ok we will go half way between Times and IPSOS - so yes 47.5% - even if it was 50/50 which it aint - the snp are pavement dancers they wouldnt chance an indyref unless its 60/40 in their favour - snivelling cowards .

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Scottish Government would be crazy to call another referendum unless it was polling at least 60/40 for.

Best way to get there is to run the country as best they can and prove that Scotland has what it takes.

 

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jambos are go!

Ardent and respected nationalist Ian Mcwhirter saying in the Herald today that there will not be another referendum because none of the major parties want one. That includes the SNP.

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Ron Burgundy
58 minutes ago, Cade said:

Scottish Government would be crazy to call another referendum unless it was polling at least 60/40 for.

Best way to get there is to run the country as best they can and prove that Scotland has what it takes.

 

Exactly. If they actually put independence on the back burner and improved schools, health and followed through on a few of their promises then their support would increase.

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The real argument right now is whether the ScotGov has the legal right to call a referendum.

 

Boris says no.

Boris is also clawing back previously devolved powers with his Internal Market Bill.

Boris is also taking the ScotGov to court to overturn two ScotGov bills (on children's rights and local government).

The day after the last referendum, the "Solemn Vow" was ripped up and Call Me Dave introduced "English votes for English laws", relegating ALL Scottish, Welsh and NI  MPs to second class MPs in the Westminster parliament, which is supposed to be the federal parliament but is in fact, first and foremost the English parliament, with Union-wide matters only given scant thought, if any at all.

 

Things are going backwards at an alarming rate.
England doesn't like the tiny wee bit of autonomy that we have and is actively undermining it.

Scotland has less power than the member States of the USA or Germany.

It's barely above a regional council in terms of actual powers.

 

Edited by Cade
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dobmisterdobster
8 minutes ago, Cade said:

The real argument right now is whether the ScotGov has the legal right to call a referendum.

 

Boris says no.

Boris is also clawing back previously devolved powers with his Internal Market Bill.

Boris is also taking the ScotGov to court to overturn two ScotGov bills (on children's rights and local government).

The day after the last referendum, the "Solemn Vow" was ripped up and Call Me Dave introduced "English votes for English laws", relegating ALL Scottish MPs to second class MPs in the Westminster parliament, which is supposed to be the federal parliament but is in fact the English first and foremost.

 

Things are going backwards at an alarming rate.
England doesn't like the tiny wee bit of autonomy that we have and is actively undermining it.

Scotland has less power than the member States of the USA or Germany.

It's barely above a regional council in terms of actual powers.

 

 

The Internal Market bill does not affect any previously devolved powers. All the relevant powers came from the EU. Holyrood will gain powers over agriculture and food labelling but they cannot block the import of produce from other parts of the UK because that would be ridiculous.

 

The 2016 Scotland Act gave Holyrood powers over the Crown Estate, Income Tax, welfare powers etc.

English Votes for English Laws is vital post-devolution. It would be hideously unfair for Scottish or Welsh MPs to vote on entirely English legislation which has been devolved to the other nations parliaments.

Westminster is NOT supposed to be a federal parliament because we are not a federation.

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jack D and coke
1 hour ago, jambos are go! said:

Ardent and respected nationalist Ian Mcwhirter saying in the Herald today that there will not be another referendum because none of the major parties want one. That includes the SNP.

Ian McWhirter lost patience with the SNP a long time ago tbh. 
He’s like a lot of nationalists in that he doesn’t believe they want it. They’re careerists in his eyes. 

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Swahili Jambo
On 03/05/2021 at 01:43, Zlatanable said:

If this was the 2021 Scottish Election thread, your many, many, many, many, many words might have been relevant. 

I do enjoy this thread.  Current odds for a SNP majority 1/200.  Tick tock.

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dobmisterdobster
9 minutes ago, Swahili Jambo said:

I do enjoy this thread.  Current odds for a SNP majority 1/200.  Tick tock.

 

1/200 for most seats. EVS for a majority.

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Swahili Jambo
3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

1/200 for most seats. EVS for a majority.

Vive la difference.  It's still a landslide.   

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4 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Exactly. If they actually put independence on the back burner and improved schools, health and followed through on a few of their promises then their support would increase.

 

That is not what they are about. Division and rancour are what they're good at, wasting other folks money while sitting on fat salaries and biting the hand that feeds them. The few smart ones amongst them know any divorce from the UK would mean a Scotland surviving on much less and an economic spiral but they will never admit this despite study after study and glaringly obvious facts like the end of fossil fuel dependency, our aging population and what Brexit means for a breakaway Scotland. They have no argument at all except the same bankrupt emotional one from 2014. Good government is not and never will be their main priority, if the last 14 years have proven anything it is that.

Edited by JackLadd
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39 minutes ago, Swahili Jambo said:

I do enjoy this thread.  Current odds for a SNP majority 1/200.  Tick tock.

Have any of your 24 posts been about Hearts?  From what I can see they are politics and/or calling Hearts fans Rangers fans.

 

Stinks worse than Seafield

Edited by Candy
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Konrad von Carstein
Just now, Candy said:

Have any of your 24 posts been about Hearts?  From what I can see they are politics and/or or calling Hearts fans Rangers fans.

 

Stinks worse than Seafield

To be fair,  many of us are swerving the Terrace just now...

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8 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

To be fair,  many of us are swerving the Terrace just now...

Fair point, myself included for a large part, and whilst I may disagree with loads of people in the shed political wise, at least I know most of them are Hearts fams

 

Mr 24 posts has had at least 2 calling Hearts fans huns and a barrel load about politics    

Edited by Candy
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Konrad von Carstein
6 minutes ago, Candy said:

Fair point, myself included for a large part, and whilst I may disagree with loads of people in the shed political wise, at least I know most of them are Hearts fams

 

Mr 24 posts has had at least 2 calling Hearts fans huns and a barrel load about politics    

Ah, I can see why the hackles may be up...

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Governor Tarkin
11 minutes ago, Candy said:

 

Mr 24 posts has had at least 2 calling Hearts fans huns and a barrel load about politics    

 

Stick on Cheltic Mhinded wum.

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Back on topic, I've no idea why anyone gives a shiney shite about polls.  The ones actually that matter are the actual elections/referenda.  The rest of it is just catnip for the media and folk seeking confirmation of their own entrenched position.

 

That said, the Scottish voting system has been shown up to be inadequate and unfair.. The likes of AFU and Alba  have proved that.

Edited by Candy
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dobmisterdobster
2 minutes ago, Candy said:

Back on topic, I've no idea why anyone gives a shiney shite about polls.  The ones actually that matter are the actual elections/referenda.  The rest of it is just catnip for the media and folk seeking confirmation of their own entrenched position.

 

That said, the Scottish voting system has been shown up to be inadequate and unfair.. The likes of AFU and Alba  have proved that.

 

Not as bad as single transferable vote used in the Scottish local elections. Absolutely horrid system, very confusing. Tons of spoilt ballots.

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Konrad von Carstein
Just now, jonesy said:

You look tired, Konnie. Away and get some kip, you'll be up celebrating tomorrow night, by the looks of things... :) 

Certainly hope that I will be Jonesy...Too early for kip am sitting in the extension watching a TV series on Netflix that Mrs KvC would never sanction :lol: and enjoying the quiet.

She has retired early as  she's out on her feet after a stressful few days at work.

 

Good that we can disagree on things but keep it relatively civil....

 

 

 

You bumbder!

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Konrad von Carstein
4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Are you Peter Murrell? 😛 

 

Either way, I pride myself on my civility and ability to see things from other people's perspectives, ya narrow-minded prick. :teu26:

 

At the end of the day, as long as my family, friends and neighbours are happy and healthy, and I'm free and unhindered to travel to the hills whenever I want, I couldn't really care less which bunch of liars, thieves and charlatans wins any election - it's merely a form of tribalism akin to football but without the pies :) 

:)

 

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Pans Jambo

Fishbowl opinion mouthpieces out in force again I see. FFS has Purdah not kicked in yet?

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26 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Certainly hope that I will be Jonesy...Too early for kip am sitting in the extension watching a TV series on Netflix that Mrs KvC would never sanction :lol: and enjoying the quiet.

She has retired early as  she's out on her feet after a stressful few days at work.

 

Good that we can disagree on things but keep it relatively civil....

 

 

 

You bumbder!

 

8 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Are you Peter Murrell? 😛 

 

Either way, I pride myself on my civility and ability to see things from other people's perspectives, ya narrow-minded prick. :teu26:

 

At the end of the day, as long as my family, friends and neighbours are happy and healthy, and I'm free and unhindered to travel to the hills whenever I want, I couldn't really care less which bunch of liars, thieves and charlatans wins any election - it's merely a form of tribalism akin to football but without the pies :) 

Oooohhh friend, political opponent friend, friend from kickback friend

 

😁

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Konrad von Carstein
3 minutes ago, Candy said:

 

Oooohhh friend, political opponent friend, friend from kickback friend

 

😁

No friend winker .... :lol:

 

 

God this place is a struggle sometimes...how is w a nker not allowed?

Edited by Konrad von Carstein
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38 minutes ago, jonesy said:

You look tired, Konnie. Away and get some kip, you'll be up celebrating tomorrow night, by the looks of things... :) 

Count doesn't start until Friday morning. No late night political happenings.

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34 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Not as bad as single transferable vote used in the Scottish local elections. Absolutely horrid system, very confusing. Tons of spoilt ballots.

Begs the question, if folk can't understand the system, do they deserve the vote?

It's not that hard.

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2 minutes ago, Boris said:

Begs the question, if folk can't understand the system, do they deserve the vote?

It's not that hard.

Who decides what level of understanding  is required to vote?

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7 minutes ago, Boris said:

Parliament

Indeed they do.

 

Your post questions if people who don't understand the system don't deserve a vote. This could include 16/17 year olds, the elderly, prisoners, people with learning difficulties, those who have fell out of the education system and those that have just been too busy to read it properly

 

Understanding the voting papers may not be hard to you or me, but it may be to others who are fully deserving of the vote. 

 

Keeping things as simple and straightforward as possible benefits everyone.

Edited by Candy
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John Findlay
3 minutes ago, Candy said:

Indeed they do.

 

Your post questions if people who don't understand the system don't deserve a vote. This could include 16/17 year olds, the elderly, prisoners, people with learning difficulties, those who have fell out of the education system and those that have just been too busy to read it properly

 

Understanding the voting papers may not be hard to you or me, but it may be to others who are fully deserving of the vote. 

 

Keeping things as simple and straightforward as possible benefits everyone.

In a nutshell. You want a first past the post system for all elections in Scotland?

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Enzo Chiefo
11 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Sturgeon has got the Scottish electorate on a piece of string.

 

She knows as long as she bangs the Indy drum she gets in but won't call for a referendum unless she knows she can win.

 

So she stays in power despite dividing the nation and numerous failings with the day job.

 

 

Propped up by the Greens. Seriously,  who votes for that rag tag shower? The guilty middle class, doing their bit to reduce Scotland's 0.15% contribution to climate change? Idealistic freshers yet to embark on real life?

If anyone cares to look at their proposition,  they'll find it's the most dangerous of all the parties, by a country mile. They condemn the "pursuit of economic growth" and want life stripped back to "essentials". Basically,  the erosion of living standards, permanent recession and huge cuts to public services. Throw in a 4 day week, on the same pay no doubt, and it must be the most economically illiterate manifesto since devolution began. Morally superior, it aint. Think before you vote!

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3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

In a nutshell. You want a first past the post system for all elections in Scotland?

One vote per qualifying voter seems fair.

 

I've no idea what the outcome would be on that system.

 

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It's perfectly simple.

 

Vote once for the Constituency seat, with is FPTP.

Exactly the same as a UK General election.

 

Then vote again for the Regional sets which are a form of weighted PR.

Parties with lower numbers of Constituency seats get a positive multiplier on all their Regional list votes so they get more extra seats.

Parties with higher numbers of Constituency seats get a negative multiplier on all their Regional list votes so they get less extra seats.

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18 minutes ago, Candy said:

Indeed they do.

 

Your post questions if people who don't understand the system don't deserve a vote. This could include 16/17 year olds, the elderly, prisoners, people with learning difficulties, those who have fell out of the education system and those that have just been too busy to read it properly

 

Understanding the voting papers may not be hard to you or me, but it may be to others who are fully deserving of the vote. 

 

Keeping things as simple and straightforward as possible benefits everyone.

I don't, in theory, disagree, however at a Westminster level we have the most basic and undemocratic electoral systems.

 

Scottish parliament electoral system works well, imo, and could be used for local elections.

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13 minutes ago, Candy said:

One vote per qualifying voter seems fair.

 

I've no idea what the outcome would be on that system.

 

Party list system then. Vote for the party, seats divvied up on share of the vote. Lose the constituencies, but arguably a fair representation of the national will.

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Enzo Chiefo
14 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Being an idealistic fresher, I'm voting Green.

I had you in the guilty middle class, Guv. Apologies, I'll update my spreadsheet 😃

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Governor Tarkin
1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I had you in the guilty middle class, Guv. Apologies, I'll update my spreadsheet 😃

 

:lol:

 

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