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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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I see the council workers have voted for strike action and refused 2%
 

Will this be because they see what the SNP are giving NHS workers and they want the same 🤷‍♀️
 

Any council workers on here?  

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20 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As much as I don't like seeing NO in the lead, maybe you should look back at the previous polls by scotsman/times. They had no in the lead before too

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5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Is it? Not sure what contradictions you see.

I suspect you are seeing what you want.

 


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

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coconut doug
5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

 

Contradictions abound. Wants to properly fund the NHS but complains he is not getting paid enough despite GPs in the UK being second only to Germany in their pay.

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Article from the Times. 

Support for Scottish independence has fallen to its lowest level in more than a year, according to a new poll.

Research for The Times found that 47 per cent of voters want Scotland to be an independent country when undecided voters are excluded. That represents a dip of two percentage points compared with the last time YouGov asked the question in early March and is the smallest return for separation since December 2019.

With all voters included, 45 per cent said they would vote “no” and 39 per cent “yes” in a referendum asking if Scotland should become independent. Ten per cent were undecided, 4 per cent would not vote and 2 per cent refused to disclose their intentions.

There was also pushback against plans by Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to quickly return focus to the constitution after next month’s Holyrood election. The first minister has said that she wants another referendum to take place in the first half of the parliament, so before the end of 2023, while Salmond, her predecessor who now leads the Alba Party, wants breakaway negotiations with Whitehall to begin immediately if a pro-independence majority of MSPs is secured.

Only 34 per cent of voters think there should be another ballot on Sturgeon’s timetable, with 49 per cent opposed.

There was greater support for a referendum being held in the next five years, with 44 per cent in favour, 40 per cent opposed and 16 per cent unsure.

The Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) said yesterday that recovering from the pandemic should be the immediate priority for the incoming Scottish government.

Union leaders voted to back another independence referendum if a majority of MSPs are in favour of the move after the election but rejected the idea of a “supermajority”, which has been promoted by Salmond.

The annual STUC conference voted that it was for the Scottish parliament to decide when or if another referendum should be held.

Powers over the constitution are reserved to Westminster and Boris Johnson has said he will not countenance agreeing to another vote while he is prime minister.

Roz Foyer, the STUC general secretary, said: “Our vote today has reaffirmed the right of the Scottish people to self-determination and recognised that as the central democratic institution in Scotland, our parliament should have the power to determine whether and when to hold a second referendum.

“But we have also asserted that economic and social recovery is our priority and that radical policy is needed to achieve that in a way that redresses current imbalances of power and wealth. We will hold to account all parties of all political colours who take their eye off that ball.”

She added that any second vote would not have to be a straight choice between independence and remaining in the UK if a “meaningful third option is developed”.

A campaign, which includes Professor James Mitchell, of Edinburgh University, was launched last weekend to include “devo max” on any future ballot paper.

Such an option has been considered, including by Salmond, since before the 2014 independence referendum. It would mean that Scotland remains part of the UK but is given substantially more powers than are currently held at Holyrood, with only major portfolios such as defence and foreign affairs reserved to Westminster.

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doctor jambo
45 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

Housing is a basic human right , 

laptops and meals for well off kids and free childcare for the wealthy is not 

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6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Housing is a basic human right , 

laptops and meals for well off kids and free childcare for the wealthy is not 


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

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Governor Tarkin
14 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

 

I'm sure that the doc' is sociopathic megalomaniac, Gizmo, but that isn't even close to what he means. 🤷‍♂️

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doctor jambo
47 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

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Unknown user
4 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

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7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

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Unknown user
Just now, Norm said:

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

Is that right? I'd be interested to read about that.

 

I think it was maybe University of Utrecht actually when I think about it

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Unknown user
3 minutes ago, Norm said:

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

I looked it up, it looks like Hull wants to be the first place to try it, with everyone getting 50-100 a week each. 

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doctor jambo
7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

Maybe, but the whole thing needs looked at   Properly.

And by that I mean the evidence .

UBI is fine if it is cost effective.

The war on immigration , drugs, prostitution everything needs looked at .

Taxation too.

Evidence based government policy, NOT pandering to the mob.

No guts anywhere for it though.

Child support as well, chasing people to pay for their kids...... governments are hugely wasteful.

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25 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

 

Is it though? It doesn't seem to be the case for capitalism over the past 70 years. 'Just stick it on the tab' or takle this money I printed at home seems to work apparently.

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The problem with means testing is that is costs almost as much to means test things as the savings you get from clawing back the money.

 

But yes, it's annoying that middle class families use their universal child allowance to pay for family holidays and rich retirees get free TV licenses and winter fuel allowance.

 

But when it comes to school meals, it's not good to have rich kids and poor kids on dinner tickets.

Teaching kids that social division, class, two-tier systems and all the rest of it is normal is not a good way of starting life.

State schools are paid for by general taxation, that everybody puts in to.

Everybody gets the same treatment. Free lunches for all.

Especially when higher earners pay more in tax anyways; they've already paid for their kid's lunches.

 

Housing being a human right and the absolute state of the UK housing/rental/serfdom market is another thread all by itself.

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1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.


I liked the idea of UBI - cheaper to give it to all than run expensive admin schemes to figure out who shouldn't get benefits. It would also stop the punishing, deliberately unhelpful regime that Duncan-Smith put in place at the DWP. 

However, when you consider the % of jobs that we could lose to admin - do you really want the government in complete control of your only source of income when a zealous neoliberal right-wing mob could reduce the taxes on, say, a figurehead company with a token human workforce and a raft of AI bots generating their income, which in turn reduces the UBI you receive. Or having to fight in a reduced jobs market to top up a UBI that can't actually be lived comfortably on?

The more I read from the WEF of late makes me quite concerned about something that, used correctly, could be a game changer.  

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Unknown user
34 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


I liked the idea of UBI - cheaper to give it to all than run expensive admin schemes to figure out who shouldn't get benefits. It would also stop the punishing, deliberately unhelpful regime that Duncan-Smith put in place at the DWP. 

However, when you consider the % of jobs that we could lose to admin - do you really want the government in complete control of your only source of income when a zealous neoliberal right-wing mob could reduce the taxes on, say, a figurehead company with a token human workforce and a raft of AI bots generating their income, which in turn reduces the UBI you receive. Or having to fight in a reduced jobs market to top up a UBI that can't actually be lived comfortably on?

The more I read from the WEF of late makes me quite concerned about something that, used correctly, could be a game changer.  

Most systems are under threat if a bunch of radges get in but there are all sorts of other things that could happen which is why we need trials. If I was getting 100 quid a week I'd probably go down to 4 day working, I'd imagine a lot of people would, and if so there would be spaces for more people to be employed.

 

Not only that, but with everyone having more money, everyone has more money to spend, leading to a strong economy.

 

I don't know if it would work but surely it's worth a shot. Trickle down economics doesn't work, never had, so let's try trickle up.

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56 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Most systems are under threat if a bunch of radges get in but there are all sorts of other things that could happen which is why we need trials. If I was getting 100 quid a week I'd probably go down to 4 day working, I'd imagine a lot of people would, and if so there would be spaces for more people to be employed.

 

Not only that, but with everyone having more money, everyone has more money to spend, leading to a strong economy.

 

I don't know if it would work but surely it's worth a shot. Trickle down economics doesn't work, never had, so let's try trickle up.


I'd be on board for 4 day weeks, absolutely. It's whether we can retain enough jobs once AI can do them better and much cheaper. They have to do something as one Bezos type trillionaire sitting on a pile of bots will have no one to sell product/services to if the wealth generation all flows to him alone. 

I'm just cynical of that WEF guy who said by 2030 we will - as in you and I, not the "Davos universe" as he put it, "own nothing and be happy about that". 

Another thing is rent protection and price gouging. Those slumlords would love to rinse that £100 a week out of your hands and into theirs, and the fact they get the £100 a week too won't stop them. 

Edited by Gizmo
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dobmisterdobster
4 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

A campaign, which includes Professor James Mitchell, of Edinburgh University, was launched last weekend to include “devo max” on any future ballot paper.

Such an option has been considered, including by Salmond, since before the 2014 independence referendum. It would mean that Scotland remains part of the UK but is given substantially more powers than are currently held at Holyrood, with only major portfolios such as defence and foreign affairs reserved to Westminster.

 

MPs in Westminster will never agree to devo max whether it gets put on a ballot paper or not. You might as well hold a referendum on whether Scotland should annex the Moon.

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Governor Tarkin
3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

You might as well hold a referendum on whether Scotland should annex the Moon.

 

:sadrobbo:

 

Merge with the Astronomy/Universe thread pls Mods.

 

 

Edited by Governor Tarkin
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Brighton Jambo
15 hours ago, XB52 said:

As much as I don't like seeing NO in the lead, maybe you should look back at the previous polls by scotsman/times. They had no in the lead before too

Fair point.  But why when it’s no ahead the polls are dodgy or misleading or biased but when yes is ahead they are to be trusted and reflect the views of the people?! 
 

Overall it’s probably pretty even but one things for sure this ‘settled will of the Scottish people’ nonsense is put to bed for the foreseeable.  

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6 hours ago, Smithee said:

Most systems are under threat if a bunch of radges get in but there are all sorts of other things that could happen which is why we need trials. If I was getting 100 quid a week I'd probably go down to 4 day working, I'd imagine a lot of people would, and if so there would be spaces for more people to be employed.

 

Not only that, but with everyone having more money, everyone has more money to spend, leading to a strong economy.

 

I don't know if it would work but surely it's worth a shot. Trickle down economics doesn't work, never had, so let's try trickle up.

 

UBI is a clever notion.  It helps if you have a tax system like Ireland's where all allowances have been replaced by credits, but the fundamental principle is a good one regardless.

 

You're entitled to a basic income by virtue of demographics.  Once you turn a certain age, you get that income regardless of age, activity or other wealth and income.  It doesn't change.

 

If you're unemployed, you get it instead of getting the dole.

 

If you're a lone parent, you get it instead of lone parents benefit.

 

If you're a student, you get it instead of a student grant.

 

If you're disabled and can't work, you get it instead of disability payments.

 

If you're retired, you get it instead of an old age pension.

 

If you're employed, you get it instead of tax credits/allowances.

 

See that last point?  The one group who get far more out of UBI than out of the current system are employees and income earners.  And that massively increases the cost of UBI, but it can be fixed.  How?  Because you can put in higher taxes on income from a lower level to balance out the extra benefit of UBI.

 

But if you switch between any of those groups by working, leaving a job, getting old, getting sick or having kids nothing changes because you're still entitled to your UBI.  So no more administrative guff about assessing who you are and what you can claim.  You just get your entitlement all the time.

 

So you can run the system through your tax administration, whether people are working or not.  You may still need pensions and social security functions, or student grant/loan administration bodies, because some of those groups may be entitled to other benefits beyond the basic income.  But you can reduce the size of those agencies, or even eliminate them completely.

 

So it'll never happen. :laugh:

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manaliveits105

:greggy:Those pesky polls c- latest yougov poll shows NAW 53% up 2 % AYE 47% Down 2% 

and 22nd April Savanta Comres poll

 

 

BE677BFC-EDDC-4802-BDB4-B203FB10E84F.png

Edited by manaliveits105
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Swahili Jambo

And so it begins.  Airdrie and Shotts by-election odds (you know, that hot bed of Labour support), SNP 1/10, Labour 6/1, the rest are an irrelevance.  Tickety tick tock.  Alba Gu Brath.

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Governor Tarkin
11 hours ago, Swahili Jambo said:

  Alba Gu Brath.

 

:rofl:

 

The mark of a loon if ever there was one. 

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manaliveits105

Big dark rings under Sturgos eyes as she flails on Andrew Marr by trying to talk non stop without answering questions - oh beauty of a question by Marr there - you criticised the UK Gov for not having done an economic forecast during Brexit but you admit you havent done one  for independence - he is ripping her apart now 

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6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Big dark rings under Sturgos eyes as she flails on Andrew Marr by trying to talk non stop without answering questions - oh beauty of a question by Marr there - you criticised the UK Gov for not having done an economic forecast during Brexit but you admit you havent done one  for independence - he is ripping her apart now 

 

She looked rough as........ and you're right, didn't handle that very well at all.

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Mars plastic
14 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Anas came across very well on the Marr show 

I can't help but like the big guy actually. Presents himself very well.

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Mars plastic
17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

She looked rough as........ and you're right, didn't handle that very well at all.

When it comes to the sums there's not anyone in the SNP who can string a coherent sentence together. JUST GEE US OOR FREEEEEEDUMMMMMMMMM!!!!

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4 minutes ago, Mars plastic said:

When it comes to the sums there's not anyone in the SNP who can string a coherent sentence together. JUST GEE US OOR FREEEEEEDUMMMMMMMMM!!!!

 

Think by the look of the nick of her, she's been given a pre-read of the report on Scotland's new deficit that the institute for fiscal studies is publishing next week. 

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Mars plastic
1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

Think by the look of the nick of her, she's been given a pre-read of the report on Scotland's new deficit that the institute for fiscal studies is publishing next week. 

Ffs, Pablo, do you not know Scotland doesn't have a deficit?? Pfffft.

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1 minute ago, Mars plastic said:

Ffs, Pablo, do you not know Scotland doesn't have a deficit?? Pfffft.

 

Leaks from the report suggests that Scotland's new fiscal deficit is 8 times the limit set by the EU for membership. 

 

The gap between public spending is now between 22% and 25% of GDP.

 

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Roxy Hearts
3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Leaks from the report suggests that Scotland's new fiscal deficit is 8 times the limit set by the EU for membership. 

 

The gap between public spending is now between 22% and 25% of GDP.

 

Who's responsible for Scotland's economy? Who sets rates, ensures our exports are managed properly? 

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6 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Who's responsible for Scotland's economy? Who sets rates, ensures our exports are managed properly? 

 

The all UK gap between public spending and tax revenue is 14.5% of GDP.

Edited by pablo
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Roxy Hearts
1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

The all UK gap between public spending and tax revenue is 14.5%

Do you Scotland contributes to the UK or is it a drain on resources?

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1 hour ago, manaliveits105 said:

Big dark rings under Sturgos eyes as she flails on Andrew Marr by trying to talk non stop without answering questions - oh beauty of a question by Marr there - you criticised the UK Gov for not having done an economic forecast during Brexit but you admit you havent done one  for independence - he is ripping her apart now 

 

Never seen it but I’m sure she just talked and talked just so she couldn’t get asked any hard questions 

 

I think she just keeps talking none stop so no one asks her anymore questions as they are sick of listening to her

Edited by theshed
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Roxy Hearts
5 minutes ago, theshed said:

 

Never seen it but I’m sure she just talked and talked just so she couldn’t get asked any hard questions 

 

I think she just keeps talking none stop so no one asks her anymore questions as they are sick of listening to her

Don't watch her then!

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manaliveits105
15 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The all UK gap between public spending and tax revenue is 14.5% of GDP.

Dont confuse the separatists with facts 

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Roxy Hearts
6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Dont confuse the separatists with facts 

What do hard working Scottish people provide for the UK?

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Governor Tarkin
5 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What do hard working Scottish people provide for the UK?

 

Soldiers for illegal wars. 

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manaliveits105
22 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

What do hard working Scottish people provide for the UK?

We send them a professional clown gurning act in Ian Blackford to keep them amused 

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Roxy Hearts
3 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

We send them a professional clown gurning act in Ian Blackford to keep them amused 

He's not the people and don't watch that soap opera in that backward, archaic place so hope he shoves it right up the ignorant lot.

 

What do we provide that Westminster needs us for?

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JudyJudyJudy
1 hour ago, theshed said:

 

Never seen it but I’m sure she just talked and talked just so she couldn’t get asked any hard questions 

 

I think she just keeps talking none stop so no one asks her anymore questions as they are sick of listening to her

Yes she is looking dreadful now . The of being  a tinpot dictator depriving everyone of their Civil liberties and freedoms has taken its toll . Im

not religious but thank you God .

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Soldiers for illegal wars. 

Canon fodder as per usual 

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Roxy Hearts
37 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes she is looking dreadful now . The of being  a tinpot dictator depriving everyone of their Civil liberties and freedoms has taken its toll . Im

not religious but thank you God .

Canon fodder as per usual 

She's done a fairly decent job through a pandemic. It's her job to look after all citizens. Dictator ffs!

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