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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


The thing you fail to realise or never mention is independence supporters find westminster the greatest threat to Scotland than any single person or leader. So whilst I hate sturgeon and dislike much that the SNP stand for if it between that and independence then I’ll choose independence every time. So SNP and Alba will be getting my votes. 

 

I thought Independence was seen more positively. Free to set own way.

 

Not so much a negative about having to follow the defence or benefits or vaccine policies of the UK. 

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1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I thought Independence was seen more positively. Free to set own way.

 

Not so much a negative about having to follow the defence or benefits or vaccine policies of the UK. 


Getting rid of Westminster means we can set our own ways so I think I already said that. 
 

There are many things about being part of the UK that I like. I like the English, Irish and Welsh and wish it didn’t have to be like that. However Westminster is now going to be Tory led and dominated by right wing politics. Scotland doesn’t need that and it’s politics are at odds with it. 
 

 

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14 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I thought Independence was seen more positively. Free to set own way.

 

Not so much a negative about having to follow the defence or benefits or vaccine policies of the UK. 

You're absolutely right, there's lots of reasons to embrace the concept of an independent Scotland, some positive about Scotland and some negative about how things are now. Thanks for pointing that out.

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19 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I thought Independence was seen more positively. Free to set own way.

 

Not so much a negative about having to follow the defence or benefits or vaccine policies of the UK. 

 

Yeah, I think as a whole that's generally true. But Alim's view of it will be held by quite a few people too, and as I've said before, I think the narrative has shifted: It's now “what has being in the Union cost Scotland—and what will continuing to be a part of it cost Scotland going forward” much more than “what will Scotland gain from being independent?”

 

For the unionists, it's now up to them to make the case for many people. Quite the seismic change from seven years ago.

 

Certainly, the unionist media will do everything it can to pretend that's not the case, but the attitude shift is noticeable, and the boring, primary school, black-and-white rants from the likes of Jack above simply won't win the day.

 

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This is worth a read.
I’ve copied and pasted it as it may be behind a paywall. 
https://apple.news/AMsSvqiisTTyxBDtHOpfx5g

 

The SNP’s pledge to take an independent Scotland back into the European Union would take a decade and lead to a hard border with England, according to a report today.

An analysis of the process by which Scotland could apply to rejoin the EU if it broke with the rest of the UK found it would almost certainly have to join the euro and would not benefit from the government’s previous budget rebate.

The report by the Institute for Government (IfG), a Whitehall think tank, says that membership would be impossible unless Edinburgh was prepared to carry out checks on goods from England crossing the border. It says this would lead to the first hard land border in Britain for three centuries.

Last night Nicola Sturgeon told the first televised leaders’ debate in the lead-up to the Holyrood election of plans to use the next parliament to “get ourselves back into the European single market so that we can trade across Europe freely again, which of course is seven times the size of the UK market”.

She said that “being out of that single market, in addition to Covid is costing our exporters dear” but came under pressure from the audience and her opponents for pushing for a second independence referendum before the end of 2023, should it win a majority in the May elections. If the SNP can secure a referendum it has made clear that one of the first acts of an independent Scotland would be to ask to rejoin the EU.

The IfG report suggests that in principle Brussels would be keen for Scotland to rejoin but only after formal separation from the UK was complete.

It suggests this could lead to significant delays — potentially taking up to a decade from the point at which any independence vote is taken.

The IfG also warns that if Scotland rejoined the EU it would have very serious consequences for the UK internal market. It says that joining the EU would mean Scotland participating in the single market and customs union — and as a result the Anglo-Scottish border would become a new external customs and regulatory frontier for the EU. It adds that even if Scotland chose a looser model of integration with the EU, such as joining the European Economic Area, this could not grant frictionless access to both the EU and the UK markets.

“As an EU member state, Scotland would have no choice but to enforce customs processes, as well as regulatory checks on goods such as animal and plant products,” the paper states. “There would be a need for new border infrastructure to enforce these rules.”

The report also warns that this could have a significant impact on Scottish businesses. It points out that at present Scottish companies trade about three times as much across the UK border as they do with the European Union. In terms of manufactured goods, exports to the rest of the UK were worth a yearly average that was in excess of £3 billion more to the Scottish economy than exports to the EU in the decade up to 2018.

The authors of the report said that before the elections the SNP needed to be “open about the trade-offs that Scotland would face” and the “costs as well as benefits” that EU membership would bring.

“Scotland was taken out of the EU against the will of a majority of its citizens,” said Akash Paun, a senior fellow at the institute and co-author of the report.

“So it is understandable that many Scottish voters now want the opportunity to vote again on independence, so that Scotland could then rejoin the EU.

“That is a choice for Scotland to make. But it should make that choice in the knowledge that it will not be able to maintain open borders with both the EU and with the rest of the UK.”
 

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20 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56580359

 

Freedumb would mean HARDSHIP. Think on anybody not fully in the cult. 

 

We need to talk about the Institute for Fiscal Studies

The IFS prides itself on being independent and objective. But its analysis often resembles ideology masquerading as science.

. . .

Another concrete example of political bias can be found in the discussion of “living standards and prospects of younger generations”. The IFS attributes the problems younger households face entering the housing market to demographics, a rising average age of the population and (strangely enough) low interest rates.

 

The financial market deregulation that has fuelled property price inflation goes unmentioned. We are warned of a “long-term change in the balance of economic power” between young and old – but not poor and rich, or labour and capital.

 

Take anything the IFS has to say with a massive dose of

 

1545458903_rocksalt.png.a4243f3312930a8eb8dcb1df8365358b.png

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30 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

This is worth a read.
I’ve copied and pasted it as it may be behind a paywall. 
https://apple.news/AMsSvqiisTTyxBDtHOpfx5g

 

The SNP’s pledge to take an independent Scotland back into the European Union would take a decade and lead to a hard border with England, according to a report today.

An analysis of the process by which Scotland could apply to rejoin the EU if it broke with the rest of the UK found it would almost certainly have to join the euro and would not benefit from the government’s previous budget rebate.

The report by the Institute for Government (IfG), a Whitehall think tank, says that membership would be impossible unless Edinburgh was prepared to carry out checks on goods from England crossing the border. It says this would lead to the first hard land border in Britain for three centuries.

Last night Nicola Sturgeon told the first televised leaders’ debate in the lead-up to the Holyrood election of plans to use the next parliament to “get ourselves back into the European single market so that we can trade across Europe freely again, which of course is seven times the size of the UK market”.

She said that “being out of that single market, in addition to Covid is costing our exporters dear” but came under pressure from the audience and her opponents for pushing for a second independence referendum before the end of 2023, should it win a majority in the May elections. If the SNP can secure a referendum it has made clear that one of the first acts of an independent Scotland would be to ask to rejoin the EU.

The IfG report suggests that in principle Brussels would be keen for Scotland to rejoin but only after formal separation from the UK was complete.

It suggests this could lead to significant delays — potentially taking up to a decade from the point at which any independence vote is taken.

The IfG also warns that if Scotland rejoined the EU it would have very serious consequences for the UK internal market. It says that joining the EU would mean Scotland participating in the single market and customs union — and as a result the Anglo-Scottish border would become a new external customs and regulatory frontier for the EU. It adds that even if Scotland chose a looser model of integration with the EU, such as joining the European Economic Area, this could not grant frictionless access to both the EU and the UK markets.

“As an EU member state, Scotland would have no choice but to enforce customs processes, as well as regulatory checks on goods such as animal and plant products,” the paper states. “There would be a need for new border infrastructure to enforce these rules.”

The report also warns that this could have a significant impact on Scottish businesses. It points out that at present Scottish companies trade about three times as much across the UK border as they do with the European Union. In terms of manufactured goods, exports to the rest of the UK were worth a yearly average that was in excess of £3 billion more to the Scottish economy than exports to the EU in the decade up to 2018.

The authors of the report said that before the elections the SNP needed to be “open about the trade-offs that Scotland would face” and the “costs as well as benefits” that EU membership would bring.

“Scotland was taken out of the EU against the will of a majority of its citizens,” said Akash Paun, a senior fellow at the institute and co-author of the report.

“So it is understandable that many Scottish voters now want the opportunity to vote again on independence, so that Scotland could then rejoin the EU.

“That is a choice for Scotland to make. But it should make that choice in the knowledge that it will not be able to maintain open borders with both the EU and with the rest of the UK.”

 

This however is super important and needs to be addressed. Plenty of non-EU countries border EU countries, and their solutions and a workable solution on this island will need to be (and will be) studied and vetted very carefully.

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Juzzie Z, anything the SNP claim should be run through a desalination plant TWICE before consumption. A shower of salty HOODWINKERS. 

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

Juzzie Z, anything the SNP claim should be run through a desalination plant TWICE before consumption. A shower of salty HOODWINKERS. 

 

That's pretty irrelevant to the IFS. Still—this may be hard for you to accept, but people who in fact do that can and will come to different conclusions than you.

 

Also worth noting that shouting outlandish and untrue things on the internet and namecalling, as you do, is not vetting. It's simply confirmation bias in action.

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11 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

That's pretty irrelevant to the IFS. Still—this may be hard for you to accept, but people who in fact do that can and will come to different conclusions than you.

 

Also worth noting that shouting outlandish and untrue things on the internet and namecalling, as you do, is not vetting. It's simply confirmation bias in action.

 

It is the SNP who claim facts by tubthumping proclamation and their base who question the patriotism of any who differ, not me. Your conclusions are driven by ideology/cultism and not facts. Admit the truth, an iScotland would suffer a painful divorce in the form of hardship, chaos and upheaval for decades. You know it and so does anybody with a grasp on reality. Unless 2 plus 2 equals 5 and war means peace the SNP are telling lies. 

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1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

Your conclusions are driven by ideology/cultism and not facts.

 

This may be the dumbest statement you've managed to make on the thread, which is quite the accomplishment given what's already here.

 

I'm not from Scotland, meaning I've been able to form my opinion from a very neutral starting point. As a bonus, I was not pro-independence before I came here; quite the reverse. I examined the evidence over a period of years, and my position changed based on that evidence.

 

You can go on to make all the outlandish, fact- and evidence-free claims you want as you did in your post, but none of that changes the simple truth that you are the ideologue here. Soz m8.

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2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It is the SNP who claim facts by tubthumping proclamation and their base who question the patriotism of any who differ, not me. Your conclusions are driven by ideology/cultism and not facts. Admit the truth, an iScotland would suffer a painful divorce in the form of hardship, chaos and upheaval for decades. You know it and so does anybody with a grasp on reality. Unless 2 plus 2 equals 5 and war means peace the SNP are telling lies. 

Unionism.

Brainwashed by the BBC, Channel 4, Daily Mail and Sky for Decades.

You know you cant explain to folk who are brainwashed that they are...brainwashed.

Wake up. None of your post above is NOT regurgitated drivel.

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jambos are go!
30 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Unionism.

Brainwashed by the BBC, Channel 4, Daily Mail and Sky for Decades.

You know you cant explain to folk who are brainwashed that they are...brainwashed.

Wake up. None of your post above is NOT regurgitated drivel.

So in saying folk are brainwashed  you might not realize that it is you that are in fact brainwashed?

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3 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

So in saying folk are brainwashed  you might not realize that it is you that are in fact brainwashed?

 

That's why I tend to think avoiding that sort of language altogether is the best policy.

 

It is enough that the media outlets Pans mentioned have an anti-independence bias proven beyond any reasonable doubt, continually demonstrated on a daily basis. Given that reality, educating ourselves outside their confines becomes really important for getting a more accurate picture of things.

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manaliveits105
50 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

It is the SNP who claim facts by tubthumping proclamation and their base who question the patriotism of any who differ, not me. Your conclusions are driven by ideology/cultism and not facts. Admit the truth, an iScotland would suffer a painful divorce in the form of hardship, chaos and upheaval for decades. You know it and so does anybody with a grasp on reality. Unless 2 plus 2 equals 5 and war means peace the SNP are telling lies. 

Stop posting articles with facts Jack it just confuses them nothing anyone outside jimmy krankie and the cult can possibly be true or logical = freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedumb !!

 

images (1).jpg

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coconut doug
15 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Unionism.

Brainwashed by the BBC, Channel 4, Daily Mail and Sky for Decades.

You know you cant explain to folk who are brainwashed that they are...brainwashed.

Wake up. None of your post above is NOT regurgitated drivel.

 

The BBC, Sky Daily Mail etc have little credibilty for most of us. They don't really create much analysis themselves now such is their lack of perspective. 

   Now we have all these "Think Tanks" to tell us how crap we are like those quoted above. They are full of mega- rich, vested interests usually supported by UK government funding. The two most recently quoted have Tory donors, a blood diamonds criminal and a procuremnent manager from the UK's biggest arms dealer. 

They are able to provide a level of insight that tells us we might have to join the Euro and there could be difficulties trading with non EU countries if we join the EU. We should be indebted to them for pointing out our own stupidity in trying to run things for ourselves. You would think that by now we would realise that these people only have our best interests at heart. 

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manaliveits105

The institute of fiscal studies find that the Scottish Government used some emergency temporary covid funding to fund  permanent policies - tsk tsk - is that how many small Scottish businesses keep asking where the funding is ?

deary me .

Wee Katie Forbes another not fit for purpose

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Elections are definitely a good thing. Seems things Governments never considered or were too expensive suddenly get given.

 

Laptops for every school pupil, 18 to 20 year olds no longer paying council tax, more housing. Lots of promises by other parties too. And that's before the manifestos are published. 

 

All presumably not possible previously. 

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9 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Stop posting articles with facts Jack it just confuses them nothing anyone outside jimmy krankie and the cult can possibly be true or logical = freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedumb !!

 

images (1).jpg

 

True man, the snp and their face painting flag shaggers have a monopoly on truth. We are quislings for daring to refer to the facts and data that pull the rug from their fantasies. 2 plus 2 does not equal 5. When it does I will vote SNP.      

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15 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

True man, the snp and their face painting flag shaggers have a monopoly on truth. We are quislings for daring to refer to the facts and data that pull the rug from their fantasies. 2 plus 2 does not equal 5. When it does I will vote SNP.      

 

:lol: Then I've got some great news for you. These "facts" 105 referred to them in the articles you post... they don't even support your argument.


From the BBC piece:

 

The Scottish government now has over £1.30 per person to spend on public services for every £1 of comparable spending per person in England, according to the findings.

 

So in essence, in the face of probably the most brutal austerity campaign of the last 100 years, the Scottish government have managed to keep public services spending a fraction above the pathetic rate in England.

 

And against the backdrop of what? £30+ billion disappeared to mates on Track-and-Trace, billions more siphoned off to donors, trillions in tax cuts and offshoring for the already rich. Quite possibly worse corruption to benefit the wealthy than even the United States, and that takes some doing.

 

Now contrast that to what Scotland could've had at its disposal to deal with Covid instead, if it had not been in the Union for the past half century: a trillion dollar oil fund like Norway, who used a fraction of that to not just maintain but increase their already far higher public services spending during an emergency like Covid. Or an outcome like New Zealand's, an independent Commonwealth island nation: 26 deaths in total. Jacinda Ardern, another highly accomplished woman world leader, called every family personally to apologise.

 

Amidst the incomplete arguments about what a benefit being in the Union has been for Covid (or anything else), is the reality of what opportunity Scotland has already lost by being chained to it. What's next? Well for many, many people, they don't want to risk it anymore. Go on ignoring this reality and instead keep squealing at rational supporters of independence that they think you are a quisling—please—and you will get pumped rotten at the ballot box when the time comes.

 

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1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

:lol: Then I've got some great news for you. These "facts" 105 referred to them in the articles you post... they don't even support your argument.


From the BBC piece:

 

The Scottish government now has over £1.30 per person to spend on public services for every £1 of comparable spending per person in England, according to the findings.

 

So in essence, in the face of probably the most brutal austerity campaign of the last 100 years, the Scottish government have managed to keep public services spending a fraction above the pathetic rate in England.

 

And against the backdrop of what? £30+ billion disappeared to mates on Track-and-Trace, billions more siphoned off to donors, trillions in tax cuts and offshoring for the already rich. Quite possibly worse corruption to benefit the wealthy than even the United States, and that takes some doing.

 

Now contrast that to what Scotland could've had at its disposal to deal with Covid instead, if it had not been in the Union for the past half century: a trillion dollar oil fund like Norway, who used a fraction of that to not just maintain but increase their already far higher public services spending during an emergency like Covid. Or an outcome like New Zealand's, an independent Commonwealth island nation: 26 deaths in total. Jacinda Ardern, another highly accomplished woman world leader, called every family personally to apologise.

 

Amidst the incomplete arguments about what a benefit being in the Union has been for Covid (or anything else), is the reality of what opportunity Scotland has already lost by being chained to it. What's next? Well for many, many people, they don't want to risk it anymore. Go on ignoring this reality and instead keep squealing at rational supporters of independence that they you are a quisling—please—and you will get pumped rotten at the ballot box when the time comes.

 

 

Impenetrable serpentine twaddle. You need to check back into the Royal Edinburgh for another 'stay' my man. Care in the community is clearly not addressing your needs.

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12 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Impenetrable serpentine twaddle. You need to check back into the Royal Edinburgh for another 'stay' my man. Care in the community is clearly not addressing your needs.

 

To quote one of my favourite films, Fight Club:

 

tumblr_miw10wZGwQ1rmtenjo3_250.gifv

 

In other words, you've got nothing, as per. :thumbsup: Cheers.

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Enzo Chiefo
15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

:lol: Then I've got some great news for you. These "facts" 105 referred to them in the articles you post... they don't even support your argument.


From the BBC piece:

 

The Scottish government now has over £1.30 per person to spend on public services for every £1 of comparable spending per person in England, according to the findings.

 

So in essence, in the face of probably the most brutal austerity campaign of the last 100 years, the Scottish government have managed to keep public services spending a fraction above the pathetic rate in England.

 

And against the backdrop of what? £30+ billion disappeared to mates on Track-and-Trace, billions more siphoned off to donors, trillions in tax cuts and offshoring for the already rich. Quite possibly worse corruption to benefit the wealthy than even the United States, and that takes some doing.

 

Now contrast that to what Scotland could've had at its disposal to deal with Covid instead, if it had not been in the Union for the past half century: a trillion dollar oil fund like Norway, who used a fraction of that to not just maintain but increase their already far higher public services spending during an emergency like Covid. Or an outcome like New Zealand's, an independent Commonwealth island nation: 26 deaths in total. Jacinda Ardern, another highly accomplished woman world leader, called every family personally to apologise.

 

Amidst the incomplete arguments about what a benefit being in the Union has been for Covid (or anything else), is the reality of what opportunity Scotland has already lost by being chained to it. What's next? Well for many, many people, they don't want to risk it anymore. Go on ignoring this reality and instead keep squealing at rational supporters of independence that they think you are a quisling—please—and you will get pumped rotten at the ballot box when the time comes.

 

Ffs, do you actually believe any of this stuff? It's scary to think the views that have ended up in people's heads. And they can vote, which scares the fecking daylights out of me🤣. Where do you think the extra funding comes from? When Sturgeon talks about spending x amount more per head on the NHS, she's arguing FOR the union. The Barnett formula gives us £2k per head more in public spending than the rUK gets. You didn't think Scotland "magics" that money up itself did you?

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16 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Ffs, do you actually believe any of this stuff? It's scary to think the views that have ended up in people's heads. And they can vote, which scares the fecking daylights out of me🤣. Where do you think the extra funding comes from? When Sturgeon talks about spending x amount more per head on the NHS, she's arguing FOR the union. The Barnett formula gives us £2k per head more in public spending than the rUK gets. You didn't think Scotland "magics" that money up itself did you?

 

Unless countries like the Nordic ones, New Zealand, most of western Europe—basically anywhere with higher public services spending than England—are doing magic, then no. You knew that, of course. :thumbsup:

 

And no, no she's not, since Scotland only receives a fraction of its own money back to spend under the Barnett formula. Of course, no one's ever been allowed by Westminster to see the figures, wonder why that is. :interehjrling:

 

That the Scottish government has able to pull off what it has in spite of the limitations imposed on it by having a chunk of its own budget whiled away by an external force every year, is really quite an accomplishment, and testament to how much better the politics and governance are here.

 

Let me know if you'd like to actually engage with the information in the previous post instead of laughing off things that kick on your cognitive dissonance. You admit that it's scary to you that people might argue things like this, and it's because of beliefs you already hold, that you've never seriously challenged. You've always taken them for granted. Maybe it's time to exercise that ol' grey matter, eh?

 

But then, that post wasn't for the benefit of you or any other arch-unionist type who already know everything. It's for folks who are after a sober assessment of the situation.

 

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Enzo Chiefo
56 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Unless countries like the Nordic ones, New Zealand, most of western Europe—basically anywhere with higher public services spending than England—are doing magic, then no. You knew that, of course. :thumbsup:

 

And no, no she's not, since Scotland only receives a fraction of its own money back to spend under the Barnett formula. Of course, no one's ever been allowed by Westminster to see the figures, wonder why that is. :interehjrling:

 

That the Scottish government has able to pull off what it has in spite of the limitations imposed on it by having a chunk of its own budget whiled away by an external force every year, is really quite an accomplishment, and testament to how much better the politics and governance are here.

 

Let me know if you'd like to actually engage with the information in the previous post instead of laughing off things that kick on your cognitive dissonance. You admit that it's scary to you that people might argue things like this, and it's because of beliefs you already hold, that you've never seriously challenged. You've always taken them for granted. Maybe it's time to exercise that ol' grey matter, eh?

 

But then, that post wasn't for the benefit of you or any other arch-unionist type who already know everything. It's for folks who are after a sober assessment of the situation.

 

You are far too deluded to debate with. You have no understanding of economics, politics or real life. "External forces"?🤣

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manaliveits105
6 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You are far too deluded to debate with. You have no understanding of economics, politics or real life. "External forces"?🤣

To be fair its never held the Scottish cabinet back

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2 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

So in saying folk are brainwashed  you might not realize that it is you that are in fact brainwashed?

:berra:

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So what I'm getting after 195 pages of this shite is that Scotland should stay in the union because it cannot go it alone.

 

JUST CANNAE DAE IT.

 

Any positive cases for staying part of the union????? Anyone????? Anything?????

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14 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You are far too deluded to debate with. You have no understanding of economics, politics or real life. "External forces"?🤣

 

And strike two!

 

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

In other words, you've got nothing, as per. :thumbsup: Cheers.

 

Not a bad day's work already, tbf.

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Enzo Chiefo
4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

To be fair its never held the Scottish cabinet back

🤣. Wedded to an ideology that involves dodging or changing the facts, to arrive at the desired outcome. No matter the problem or the question, Independence always has to be the answer. 

We get comparisons with Ireland or Norway but no mention of there not being an NHS and paying to see a GP in Ireland or the sky high taxes in Norway. How people in power get away with attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of the population is beyond belief. Thankfully,  the majority can see through the lies and obfuscation. 

 

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Enzo Chiefo
4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

So what I'm getting after 195 pages of this shite is that Scotland should stay in the union because it cannot go it alone.

 

JUST CANNAE DAE IT.

 

Any positive cases for staying part of the union????? Anyone????? Anything?????

Apart from the economic, security, cultural, trade, political, social reasons, no, can't think of any off hand.

Ask Nicola Sturgeon why, even now, she wants to join the discredited, corrupt, EU??  Just one credible reason would be good.

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5 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

🤣. Wedded to an ideology that involves dodging or changing the facts, to arrive at the desired outcome. No matter the problem or the question, Independence always has to be the answer. 

We get comparisons with Ireland or Norway but no mention of there not being an NHS and paying to see a GP in Ireland or the sky high taxes in Norway. How people in power get away with attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of the population is beyond belief. Thankfully,  the majority can see through the lies and obfuscation. 

 

Perfect.

Focus on what YOU think are the negatives. What else is negative in Ireland or Norway or is that it? Lots of foodbanks perhaps? High child mortality? Huge unemployment? Brutal public transport? Bad pensions? What else???????

 

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1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Apart from the economic, security, cultural, trade, political, social reasons, no, can't think of any off hand.

Ask Nicola Sturgeon why, even now, she wants to join the discredited, corrupt, EU??  Just one credible reason would be good.

Economic? explain the positive case for that?

Cultural? Explain the positive case for that?

Trade? Not sure what you mean. Do independent countries not trade with each other? Ruk doesnt sell anything at all to Scotland then?

Political? WTF?

Social reasons? Are they switching off the mobile signals again?

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manaliveits105

Although Enzo and many other people have already its not up to the good Scotish people who are happy to remain in the union at the moment after indyref1 - brexit and covid and let things settle - its up to separatists to convince them otherwise and apart from Tories bad the snp are firing blanks - 7 years on they still cant answer any of the important questions that they couldnt answer in 2014 .Their record on many aspects of government has been dreadful not to mention the lies smoke and mirrors - they can  the for the forseeable - RAM IT 

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Must be amazing to be a SNP politician. Blame Westminster for everything with zero accountability given or asked for by their supporters. Wtf these people will do if they ever get independence, who will they blame ? 

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Enzo Chiefo
10 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Perfect.

Focus on what YOU think are the negatives. What else is negative in Ireland or Norway or is that it? Lots of foodbanks perhaps? High child mortality? Huge unemployment? Brutal public transport? Bad pensions? What else???????

 

All cured by Independence.  Great news. Where do I sign up?

It's incumbent on those proposing constitutional change to lay out the facts, warts and all that make them think we would be better off. They won't though, because, it is all about an ideology that only involves woolly ideas like creating a "fairer society", whatever that is. Fairer to whom? Who decides? How do you achieve it? And "decisions made by the people of Scotland ". By the same people who are making them now? It's good decision making we need. You can argue about better decisions being made at a local level. Fair enough. Why then do Scot Gov centralise the powers in Edinburgh instead of devolving them to local level?? We have a stack load of powers already. Why move them from Westminster to Edinburgh? Then give them away to Brussels? 

 

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Enzo Chiefo
2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Must be amazing to be a SNP politician. Blame Westminster for everything with zero accountability given or asked for by their supporters. Wtf these people will do if they ever get independence, who will they blame ? 

I was playing Boris Johnson Bingo last night. Had a full house after Sturgeon's first couple of answers, aided and abetted by that shouty, Green nutter. Like Mrs Thatcher before him, if they hadn't existed, they would have to have invented them. 

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Enzo Chiefo
27 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Although Enzo and many other people have already its not up to the good Scotish people who are happy to remain in the union at the moment after indyref1 - brexit and covid and let things settle - its up to separatists to convince them otherwise and apart from Tories bad the snp are firing blanks - 7 years on they still cant answer any of the important questions that they couldnt answer in 2014 .Their record on many aspects of government has been dreadful not to mention the lies smoke and mirrors - they can  the for the forseeable - RAM IT 

Well said M105. More or less what the audience were telling Sturgeon last night.  No wonder she looked punch drunk.

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3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

All cured by Independence.  Great news. Where do I sign up?

It's incumbent on those proposing constitutional change to lay out the facts, warts and all that make them think we would be better off. They won't though, because, it is all about an ideology that only involves woolly ideas like creating a "fairer society", whatever that is. Fairer to whom? Who decides? How do you achieve it? And "decisions made by the people of Scotland ". By the same people who are making them now? It's good decision making we need. You can argue about better decisions being made at a local level. Fair enough. Why then do Scot Gov centralise the powers in Edinburgh instead of devolving them to local level?? We have a stack load of powers already. Why move them from Westminster to Edinburgh? Then give them away to Brussels? 

 

That a rabble of shite.

Especially your last part. Westminster controls near on 70% of everything Scotland decides and its encroaching on that as we speak. Brussels would be what? 15% or something.

 

Think we would need another referendum to decide if we wanted to rejoin anyway. And we will.

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1 minute ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I was playing Boris Johnson Bingo last night. Had a full house after Sturgeon's first couple of answers, aided and abetted by that shouty, Green nutter. Like Mrs Thatcher before him, if they hadn't existed, they would have to have invented them. 


It’s embarrassing, mumping about with a chip on their shoulders. Blame, blame blame then promise the end of the rainbow. You see the types lapping it up as well wasting their life away blaming other people instead of getting on with life. Scaffs most of them trying to drag the country to its knees for some sort of freedom. I’ve no idea what being part of the union is stopping them doing. 

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Delusional wee souls.

 

Flag waving wee brits (now TOLD to fly the apron from all government buildings and they've got the cheek to call Scots "Nationalists :lol:. What's next, accusing jonnie foreigner of stealing our jobs...oh wait!)

 

The one sided union is OVER.

 

Dry yer eyes lads. Boris hibsed it!

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dazo said:


It’s embarrassing, mumping about with a chip on their shoulders. Blame, blame blame then promise the end of the rainbow. You see the types lapping it up as well wasting their life away blaming other people instead of getting on with life. Scaffs most of them trying to drag the country to its knees for some sort of freedom. I’ve no idea what being part of the union is stopping them doing. 


How about moving or living anywhere in the EU without needing a Visa? 

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1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Economic? explain the positive case for that?

Cultural? Explain the positive case for that?

Trade? Not sure what you mean. Do independent countries not trade with each other? Ruk doesnt sell anything at all to Scotland then?

Political? WTF?

Social reasons? Are they switching off the mobile signals again?

STILL WAITING!!!

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1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Perfect.

Focus on what YOU think are the negatives. What else is negative in Ireland or Norway or is that it? Lots of foodbanks perhaps? High child mortality? Huge unemployment? Brutal public transport? Bad pensions? What else???????

 

WAITING ON A POSITIVE REASON>>>>>>STILL!!!

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2 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Ffs, do you actually believe any of this stuff? It's scary to think the views that have ended up in people's heads. And they can vote, which scares the fecking daylights out of me🤣. Where do you think the extra funding comes from? When Sturgeon talks about spending x amount more per head on the NHS, she's arguing FOR the union. The Barnett formula gives us £2k per head more in public spending than the rUK gets. You didn't think Scotland "magics" that money up itself did you?


"Scares me these people can vote" says one of the most zealous and hyperbolic posters on this thread. You don't possess a shred of self-awareness to your own zealotry which clouds your ability to think critically. 🙄

Where do you think Westminster gets this money from - it couldnae be from Scottish taxpayers, per chance? The treasury used to publish an annual table showing the difference between income and spend in Scotland - and it was always more in than came back. Then they stopped publishing it - wonder why...

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1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

We get comparisons with Ireland or Norway but no mention of there not being an NHS and paying to see a GP in Ireland or the sky high taxes in Norway.

 

Ah yes, that sky high top tax rate in Norway of... er, 38%, which is towers over England's top rate of... what, 45%? That can't be right.

 

Silly me thinking you'd attempted to engage with the facts for a moment there. :thumbsup:

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Enzo Chiefo
16 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


How about moving or living anywhere in the EU without needing a Visa? 

Without needing a Visa or being able to get a Vaccine.

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19 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


How about moving or living anywhere in the EU without needing a Visa? 


So a few more hurdles to jump through. If it’s something important to you or you want to do then you get a visa, is that a big deal ? Do we need spoon fed to get on with things ? 

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