Gender “equality”

[Tynieman]

I’m a self-admitted socialist, however the subject of gender equality and what I deem to be the sheer ignorance when it comes “equal” treatment has really started to annoy me over the past few months.

 

In the media, I feel we read or hear frequently about how women are unfairly treated, whether it be “unequal” pay (I’ll come onto that), or how it’s unfair for woman to be sent to prison. 

 

I’ll admit that there’s a reason I have tonight chose to vent on this subject - something has happened in the place I work. In the 13 or so years I have worked there, the management team has always been dominated by women. I have absolutely no issues with this whatsoever - if the women are the best for the job. It’s never been an issue until recently.

 

I (as well as a few other people) discovered that said employer recently recruited for management roles, they actively looked for woman only, disregarding nearly all applications from men. The whole management team (roughly about ten or so) are now female. All senior management are female. 

 

To me, it is quite frankly, outrageous behaviour. I hope to god that someone whistle blows but I suspect it would be hard to prove that the recruitment was aimed towards women only. The few people who know were told be a senior source.

 

On the subject of fairness in work - I keep reading about how woman are paid less than men. The thing is - the gender pay gap is mostly a falsehood - every economist worth their salt states this. There is differences between the choices men and women make which is mainly the reason for any difference in pay. 

 

If you actually look at the Norway model of employment where women can chose any career and get a guaranteed interview - the majority choose to work in traditionally female jobs such as receptionists, hairdressers etc, which has actually swung the balance is the opposite direction.

 

Ultimately, men and women are different and make different choices. That’s just a fact of life which seems to be ignored just now.

 

I understand that sexism still occurs - but I honestly believe it’s the same between men and women. It just tends not to be highlighted when it’s against men.

 

Another example of this in my workplace is about two years ago, there was awards being delivered throughout the office. I work for a big company and the event was quite a big deal with directors and the such-like being there to hand the awards out.

 

Believe it or not, the female management team felt it appropriate to get colleagues to vote for “stud of the department”. I’m still annoyed I didn’t win of course...

 

However, in all seriousness, can you imagine if there was a vote for “babe of the department”? There would rightly be outrage.

 

You’d think it was easy being male - which evidently with the suicide rate (which is massive when compared to women) isn’t the case.

 

If equality is truly wanted - should prison sentences, maternity times, domestic violence etc not be treated exactly the same for both genders? 

 

I love women (my mum was one...) and want of course to they deserve fair treatment. What I don’t want however is men to then be unfairly treated in their place.

 

I’m really hopeful I’m not coming across as sexist, because I’m really not. I just wonder what other people’s thoughts on this are?

Edited February 21, 2020 by Tynieman

[Der Kaiser]

I've often said that life for men in general is harder mentally and for women it's harder physically. 

 

I've had plenty arguments over this view but it's what I believe. You see it from a young age....two young kids fall over and scrape their knees....the girl is comforted and treated with lots of sympathy....the boy is told to be brave and dont cry.

Ok...its very general and probably quite a cliche but it carries through life in so many facets.

 

Bill Burr is the man to go to for reasoning on gender equality though.......

[GinRummy]

At least there’ll be some nice looking birds in your office. 😎

[John Findlay]

Can of worms well and truly opened.

[obua]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Can of worms well and truly opened.

I don’t think it will end well.

[John Findlay]

Just now, obua said:

I don’t think it will end well.

Not for men, no.

[Cruyff]

Of course I agree that men and woman should be paid equally. That should go without saying but to save myself some typing. I also agree with everything Dr. Jordan Petterson says. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, obua said:

I don’t think it will end well.

I bet it'll turn into a SNP argument!!

Shame really as it's perfectly legitimate ppint to raise.

[Dawnrazor]

If women are paid so much less than men, why isn't the workforce totally remale?!

[obua]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

If women are paid so much less than men, why isn't the workforce totally remale?!

Probably not as good As men at the job

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, obua said:

Probably not as good As men at the job

Well its just aswell they can do the same amount of overtime so they can earn as much.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

If women are paid so much less than men, why isn't the workforce totally remale?!

 

Because human beings don't always act perfectly in accordance with their economic interests.

 

@Tynieman I feel your frustrations are reasonably considered and especially justified in light of your employment situation. In the end, it's a complicated issue (like anything). I do feel that many of the same negative aspects of western society and culture that drive these inequalities are the same things that lead to negative effects you cited like the male suicide epidemic.

 

Good post on a sensitive topic.

[obua]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Well its just aswell they can do the same amount of overtime so they can earn as much.

how can they do overtime, who’s going to cook the dinner 😇😂

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, obua said:

how can they do overtime, who’s going to cook the dinner 😇😂

Good point well made, i forgot about her domestic chores but that's a fine argument for flexi time is it not?

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Because human beings don't always act perfectly in accordance with their economic interests.

 

Spoken like a true compassionate capitalist. 

[Cade]

Two people doing the same job should be paid the same money.

It's not difficult.

 

Doesn't matter what gender, sex, race or religion someone is or what physical or mental problems they may have. 

If they are the best person for the job, they should be doing the job.

If all the best people in that role are old white blokes, then I have no issue with the boardroom being nothing but old white dudes. 

 

Quotas and exclusive lists are the wrong way to go, all you do is shoehorn incompetent people into jobs they can't do.

 

 

[crooky]

Do you work for the BBC?

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

Two people doing the same job should be paid the same money.

It's not difficult.

 

Doesn't matter what gender, sex, race or religion someone is or what physical or mental problems they may have. 

If they are the best person for the job, they should be doing the job.

If all the best people in that role are old white blokes, then I have no issue with the boardroom being nothing but old white dudes. 

 

Quotas and exclusive lists are the wrong way to go, all you do is shoehorn incompetent people into jobs they can't do.

 

 

Pretty much sums it up imo.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Dawnrazor

[Lovecraft]

I blame the SNP

 

The Tories wouldn't be having any of this women working crap.

 

They would be either wives or prostitutes.

 

 

[Shanks]

1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Of course I agree that men and woman should be paid equally. That should go without saying but to save myself some typing. I also agree with everything Dr. Jordan Petterson says. 

 

Spot on 

[rudi must stay]

It's a woman's world right now

 

 

 

[Dagger Is Back]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Two people doing the same job should be paid the same money.

It's not difficult.

 

Doesn't matter what gender, sex, race or religion someone is or what physical or mental problems they may have. 

If they are the best person for the job, they should be doing the job.

If all the best people in that role are old white blokes, then I have no issue with the boardroom being nothing but old white dudes. 

 

Quotas and exclusive lists are the wrong way to go, all you do is shoehorn incompetent people into jobs they can't do.

 

 

Saves me typing my thoughts

 

Thanks

 

👏

[obua]

2 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

I blame the SNP

 

The Tories wouldn't be having any of this women working crap.

 

They would be either wives or prostitutes.

 

 

Don’t you get one of each.

[TheOak88]

To the OP.

 

How did you find out that Management disregarded all male applicants in favour of hiring a woman? 

 

Even if your right and they did do it, I doubt they would be flapping their gums to that effect. They would be running the risk of getting some serious pushback from HR if they are telling people that. 

 

On that point, if you know this is the case why not go to HR and ask them to investigate the recruitment process for said role? 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, TheOak88 said:

To the OP.

 

How did you find out that Management disregarded all male applicants in favour of hiring a woman? 

 

Even if your right and they did do it, I doubt they would be flapping their gums to that effect. They would be running the risk of getting some serious pushback from HR if they are telling people that. 

 

On that point, if you know this is the case why not go to HR and ask them to investigate the recruitment process for said role? 

 

My guess would be that the management have seniority over HR, and raising such issues - in thel private sector at least - isn't going to end well for you.

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, Tynieman said:

I’m a self-admitted socialist, however the subject of gender equality and what I deem to be the sheer ignorance when it comes “equal” treatment has really started to annoy me over the past few months.

 

In the media, I feel we read or hear frequently about how women are unfairly treated, whether it be “unequal” pay (I’ll come onto that), or how it’s unfair for woman to be sent to prison. 

 

I’ll admit that there’s a reason I have tonight chose to vent on this subject - something has happened in the place I work. In the 13 or so years I have worked there, the management team has always been dominated by women. I have absolutely no issues with this whatsoever - if the women are the best for the job. It’s never been an issue until recently.

 

I (as well as a few other people) discovered that said employer recently recruited for management roles, they actively looked for woman only, disregarding nearly all applications from men. The whole management team (roughly about ten or so) are now female. All senior management are female. 

 

To me, it is quite frankly, outrageous behaviour. I hope to god that someone whistle blows but I suspect it would be hard to prove that the recruitment was aimed towards women only. The few people who know were told be a senior source.

 

On the subject of fairness in work - I keep reading about how woman are paid less than men. The thing is - the gender pay gap is mostly a falsehood - every economist worth their salt states this. There is differences between the choices men and women make which is mainly the reason for any difference in pay. 

 

If you actually look at the Norway model of employment where women can chose any career and get a guaranteed interview - the majority choose to work in traditionally female jobs such as receptionists, hairdressers etc, which has actually swung the balance is the opposite direction.

 

Ultimately, men and women are different and make different choices. That’s just a fact of life which seems to be ignored just now.

 

I understand that sexism still occurs - but I honestly believe it’s the same between men and women. It just tends not to be highlighted when it’s against men.

 

Another example of this in my workplace is about two years ago, there was awards being delivered throughout the office. I work for a big company and the event was quite a big deal with directors and the such-like being there to hand the awards out.

 

Believe it or not, the female management team felt it appropriate to get colleagues to vote for “stud of the department”. I’m still annoyed I didn’t win of course...

 

However, in all seriousness, can you imagine if there was a vote for “babe of the department”? There would rightly be outrage.

 

You’d think it was easy being male - which evidently with the suicide rate (which is massive when compared to women) isn’t the case.

 

If equality is truly wanted - should prison sentences, maternity times, domestic violence etc not be treated exactly the same for both genders? 

 

I love women (my mum was one...) and want of course to they deserve fair treatment. What I don’t want however is men to then be unfairly treated in their place.

 

I’m really hopeful I’m not coming across as sexist, because I’m really not. I just wonder what other people’s thoughts on this are?

I hear there's a vacancy in Saudi Arabia. 

[JFK-1]

Which genders? I have lost count of how many there supposedly are. Were only two when I was growing up but now genders appear to be like stars in the universe. The number is constantly rising.

[A Boy Named Crow]

I’m all for people getting paid the same for doing the same job, regardless of gender, race, age (assuming experience levels are the same in the case of age) etc. It’d be fascinating to hear an argument to justify paying a woman less than a man for doing the same job, to the same standard, for the same company.

 

What really annoys me though is the wilful dishonesty that you see though. Two examples spring to mind:

 

1 - A company I used to work for introduced an initiative they called Project Venus. One aspect of this was that any team deemed to contain too high a proportion of men would have to consider women first in any hiring decisions, to rebalance the inequality. However, there was no imperative to hire men first for teams that were predominantly female. There was a huge presentation to announce this, at which it was suggested to the CEO that this was sending out the message to men that their opportunities in the company were now limited. He just couldn’t admit it, he kept wittering on about great opportunities for women, redressing and imbalance etc. didn’t change the fact that men were obviously now going to be overlooked when going for certain jobs, just because they’re men.

 

2  Female tennis players deserve equal prize money to the men. This would be true, if the men’s game wasn’t much more popular, drove much more revenue and if they actually did the same amount of work - 5 set matches like the men, rather than the 3 sets the women currently do.

[jake]

11 hours ago, rudi must stay said:

It's a woman's world right now

 

 

 

It's really not.

Not even close.

[Mikey1874]

So the examples seem concerning and the individual experiences of unfairness may be valid. 

 

But the overall picture remains of male dominance. Paid more, less inconveniences (pregnancy etc). People trying to do something to reverse that may not always get it right. Incompetent delivery of broad policies doesn't surprise me. 

 

Stepping back I am more concerned about the dominance of wealth including those who went to private schools. Who is most disadvantaged? Who has the most benefits? I think there is a lot more to do there than over gender. And then there is race. 

 

So depends on your starting point. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Mikey1874

[AlimOzturk]

16 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

So the examples seem concerning and the individual experiences of unfairness may be valid. 

 

But the overall picture remains of male dominance. Paid more, less inconveniences (pregnancy etc). People trying to do something to reverse that may not always get it right. Incompetent delivery of broad policies doesn't surprise me. 

 

Stepping back I am more concerned about the dominance of wealth including those who went to private schools. Who is most disadvantaged? Who has the most benefits? I think there is a lot more to do there than over gender. And then there is race. 

 

So depends on your starting point. 

 

You can hardly call pregnancy an inconvenience. That's a choice that was given to women through the introduction of birth control...ironically invented by a man. 

 

Men dominate some sectors but other sectors such as engineering and manual labour jobs but women dominate others such as nursing, health care ect...

 

The gender pay gap is a myth. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by AlimOzturk

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

You can hardly call pregnancy an inconvenience. That's a choice that was given to women through the introduction of birth control...ironically invented by a man. 

 

There are really a lot of reasons why a woman either might choose not to be on birth control or cannot be for the sake of her own health.

 

[AlimOzturk]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

There are really a lot of reasons why a woman either might choose not to be on birth control or cannot be for the sake of her own health.

 

 

She should insist on a bloke wearing a condom then. And religious beliefs are also a choice. 

 

Not buying that women arent in control of getting pregnant or not. They also have the choice to either share or let their partners have maternity. They dont have to give up their careers. 

 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

You can hardly call pregnancy an inconvenience. That's a choice that was given to women through the introduction of birth control...ironically invented by a man. 

 

Men dominate some sectors but other sectors such as engineering and manual labour jobs but women dominate others such as nursing, health care ect...

 

The gender pay gap is a myth. 

Jordan Peterson has done a video about that. It’s apparently to do with how we’re wired. Men are better at certain jobs because we’re interested in things. Women much better at others because they’re interested in people. 
Genetics drive a lot more of it than to suddenly say women should have more people in this sector just because. 

[AlimOzturk]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Jordan Peterson has done a video about that. It’s apparently to do with how we’re wired. Men are better at certain jobs because we’re interested in things. Women much better at others because they’re interested in people. 
Genetics drive a lot more of it than to suddenly say women should have more people in this sector just because. 

 

Yep. He knows his stuff when it comes to gender arguments. 

[rudi must stay]

3 hours ago, jake said:

It's really not.

Not even close.

 

It is my view. They may not have equal pay but they are treated better than men, alot better

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, rudi must stay said:

 

It is my view. They may not have equal pay but they are treated better than men, alot better

Where?

[rudi must stay]

29 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Where?

 

Everywhere 

[Justin Z]

4 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

She should insist on a bloke wearing a condom then. And religious beliefs are also a choice.

 

All birth control has a failure rate. Don't buy it or not, I guess, but it's a fact.

 

I also wasn't talking about religious beliefs at all because I don't have any respect for regressive religious beliefs. It was more, have you ever read the list of side effects on a birth control insert? It's mental--and indeed--often results in the taker acting mental.

 

It's not even 1% as simple as you're making it out to be. Apparently we're not far off from male birth control though, so I'm sure we'll see you waiting in line at the Boots the day it's made available. Then again, you've undoubtedly already gotten your free snip from the Scottish NHS, so no need.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Justin Z

[Justin Z]

"You may say, 'Well, dragons don't exist'. It's, like, yes they do — the category predator and the category dragon are the same category. It absolutely exists. It's a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists. What exists is not obvious. You say, 'Well, there's no such thing as witches.' Yeah, I know what you mean, but that isn't what you think when you go see a movie about them. You can't help but fall into these categories. There's no escape from them." -- Jordan Peterson

 

Makes about as much sense as anything he's ever said, tbf.

 

[gjcc]

29 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

All birth control has a failure rate. Don't buy it or not, I guess, but it's a fact.

 

I also wasn't talking about religious beliefs at all because I don't have any respect for regressive religious beliefs. It was more, have you ever read the list of side effects on a birth control insert? It's mental--and indeed--often results in the taker acting mental.

 

It's not even 1% as simple as you're making it out to be. Apparently we're not far off from male birth control though, so I'm sure we'll see you waiting in line at the Boots the day it's made available. Then again, you've undoubtedly already gotten your free snip from the Scottish NHS, so no need.

 

Have you ever read the ibuprofen side effects? Seems you’re flipping a coin with every pill.  

[Justin Z]

12 minutes ago, gjcc said:

Have you ever read the ibuprofen side effects? Seems you’re flipping a coin with every pill.  

 

Fair shout!

 

[jambopilms]

.

Edited February 22, 2020 by jambopilms

[TheOak88]

1 hour ago, gjcc said:

Have you ever read the ibuprofen side effects? Seems you’re flipping a coin with every pill.  

 

Yep. If you read the side effects page of Vitamin C there is a crazy list of side effects from vomiting to heart attack. Sometimes people aren’t great at putting things in perspective tho.