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We Are Going Down


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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

They play teams who generally pass it out. 

They are also very, very good. 

 

In Scotland, teams are happy to fire it into the corners, turn the defence and almost play a territory game. 

 

Pressing a team that goes direct is not as effective as pressing a team that insists on possession football. 

 

 

 

 

The idea is the sane though, you have to attack far more quickly with much more tempo than we have,especially from the back.

Have you watched the EPL, most teams hoof it long especially away at the big teams, Liverpool and Man City do it every week against who ever they play.
Why did the pressing work at Barnsley in League one? It wasn’t his own players but he did have a pre season to work on it.

Every excuse for not doing it all the time falls down at the merest scrutiny I’m afraid. 

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Governor Tarkin
5 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


Pointing it out because your post seemed to place a lot more importance on the poster than the topic. 

 

Not overly fussy about laughs on Kickback, it’s far too restrictive in what you can post for that to happen these days. I just have a laugh with my mates instead. 

 

No it doesn't, it places emphasis on the type of poster - and their general approach to topics. 

 

I'm glad you're not overly fussed about laughs on Kickback, because you don't appear to be having many.

I don't think it's too restrictive in what you can post either, it's somewhere about just right, probably, if you're comfortable with the odd warning.

 

Glad you're having a laugh with your mates. 👍

 

I recall those days fondly.

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1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

They’ve played it without the right players and have still been reasonably successful, they’re not bottom of the league and have perfected it now. Better players have helped but the likes of Henderson and Milner have adapted, you have to convince the players to believe in it and most of ours seem to, you can’t change all the time or the players get confused as they did under your pal Levein. Budget is important when you want to sign Allison and Van Dijk though.
Still no answer to what manager, system and formation suits this mismatched squad?


Having our defenders in our own half would be a start. You can only play such a high line with very fast and very athletic defenders. We don’t have either. You also need an exceptional goal keeper, which we don’t have. The current squad is more than good enough to stay up played in a more pragmatic set up. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Having our defenders in our own half would be a start. You can only play such a high line with very fast and very athletic defenders. We don’t have either. You also need an exceptional goal keeper, which we don’t have. The current squad is more than good enough to stay up played in a more pragmatic set up. 

 

Despite dis-agreeing with your overall tone, I can't help but agree with this.

 

If you don't have the players available to successfully set up with a high defensive line, don't play with a high defensive line. Our squad is more than good enough to win the majority of our remaining games, however we are shooting ourselves in the face (never mind the foot) by using a tactical approach that is gifting the opposition a 2/3 goal head start.

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Pasquale for King
3 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Having our defenders in our own half would be a start. You can only play such a high line with very fast and very athletic defenders. We don’t have either. You also need an exceptional goal keeper, which we don’t have. The current squad is more than good enough to stay up played in a more pragmatic set up. 

Is it, we were bottom in a more pragmatic set up before Stendel arrived. He moved Smith to RB and if Sibbick is fit he is likely to stay there, it will impact our attacking play but hopefully will help Souttar who has been nothing short of shocking since he returned. Hopefully that slightly more pragmatic move will help us, and placate the Stendel out crowd. 

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Governor Tarkin
1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

It doesn’t have to be the case that one is to blame and the other completely without blame. I happen to think Levein failed AND Stendel is doing a really poor job so far.

 

 

Sorry, was too busy being argumentative and forgot to agree with this bit.

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Just now, Pasquale for King said:

Is it, we were bottom in a more pragmatic set up before Stendel arrived. He moved Smith to RB and if Sibbick is fit he is likely to stay there, it will impact our attacking play but hopefully will help Souttar who has been nothing short of shocking since he returned. Hopefully that slightly more pragmatic move will help us, and placate the Stendel out crowd. 


We weren’t bottom when Stendel arrived and we didn’t have all our players fit ...

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Bazzas right boot
11 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

The idea is the sane though, you have to attack far more quickly with much more tempo than we have,especially from the back.

Have you watched the EPL, most teams hoof it long especially away at the big teams, Liverpool and Man City do it every week against who ever they play.
Why did the pressing work at Barnsley in League one? It wasn’t his own players but he did have a pre season to work on it.

Every excuse for not doing it all the time falls down at the merest scrutiny I’m afraid. 

 

 

Not at all. 

We have conceded many goals and are bottom of the league. 

 

That in itself says we need to change something and it's not working atm, no scrutiny required, results and watching us screams we need to change something. 

 

You seem to be saying because it worked with x team we should just continue with it and do it all the time, it will work eventually. 

 

And what if both teams press... 

 

This championship manager mindset of some posters is baffling. 

Common theme as well on here in regards to transfers and tactics. 

 

 

Edited by Smith's right boot
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Pasquale for King
Just now, Mr Elwood P said:


We weren’t bottom when Stendel arrived and we didn’t have all our players fit ...

Joint bottom on goal difference, we don’t have all our players fit now and no team in football ever does in this day and age.

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Just now, Pasquale for King said:

Joint bottom on goal difference, we don’t have all our players fit now and no team in football ever does in this day and age.


We’ve got a lot more fit players now than we had previously...

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Pasquale for King
8 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Not at all. 

We have conceded many goals and are bottom of the league. 

 

That in itself says we need to change something and it's not working atm, no scrutiny required results and watching us screams we need to change something. 

 

You seem to be saying because it worked with x team we should just continue with it and do it all the time, it will work eventually. 

 

And what if both teams press... 

 

This championship manager mindset of some posters is baffling. 

Common theme as well on here in regards to transfers and tactics. 

 

 

Never played it im an adult 😜. Both teams pressing produces great exciting games, it is supposed to be entertainment after all.

At no point have I said we should continually play it no matter what. One of my biggest concerns about Levein was his inability to realise something needed changed. 

Stendel tried a change at Falkirk, it didn’t work. He tried Smith at RB on Saturday and it did, he should and probably will stay there.

Quite a few folk still say Levein didn’t have a settled side due to injury, can we afford Stendel that leeway?

Edited by Pasquale for King
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Pasquale for King
5 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


We’ve got a lot more fit players now than we had previously...

Amazingly enough, Stendel has shaken up the medical department “went through them” apparently. Naismith not at full pelt but playing every week. Still missing Sibbick and Haring currently and a few playing with problems Clare/Smith/Boyce.

Edited by Pasquale for King
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1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Amazingly enough, Stendel has shaken up the medical department “went through them” apparently. Naismith not at full pelt but playing every week.


Worked wonders playing an injured Boyce on Saturday, right enough!

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29 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:


ok it’s usually the premier team, who are favoured by the set up (playing the second leg at home). But you have to go back four years for anything at all convincing by the premier team. Three years ago the premier team won 1-0 at home after a 0-0 draw. Two years ago it was the championship team (Livi) who won both games, 2-1 at home and then 1-0 away. Last season St Mirren won only on penalties after 0-0 and 1-1 draws. Nothing there to suggest a gulf in class.

 

It's a tie in which the superior team more often than not wins, they almost always do enough. No point busting a gut to do anything other than that and the inferior team generally ups their game.

Celtic beat us 2-1 in the cup final last year yet we all know there is a gulf between us.

Edited by graygo
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Pasquale for King
2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Worked wonders playing an injured Boyce on Saturday, right enough!

Levein did it constantly yet you still back him, even after injuring players such as Uche/Naismith and Hating whilst doing so. We are desperate now, partly due to Levein signing and playing injured players.

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2 hours ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Your lack of footballing knowledge is equally astounding. The clue is that Liverpool have the players to play the system, we clearly do not. That is why we are getting relegated.

This right here shows what you know about football, can I ask how much do you actually know about English football?. 

 

Then I put the question to you in Jurgen Klopps first season were did Liverpool finish, furthermore in Pep Guardiolas first season were did Man City finish?. 

 

Edit so we are relegated now are we i must of missed that one, sure we still have 11 games to play?. 

Edited by Bongo 1874
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Bazzas right boot
7 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Never played it im an adult 😜. Both teams pressing produces great exciting games, it is supposed to be entertainment after all.

At no point have I said we should continually play it no matter what. One of my biggest concerns about Levein was his inability to realise something needed changed. 

Stendel tried a change at Falkirk, it didn’t work. He tried Smith at RB on Saturday and it did, he should and probably will stay there.

Quite a few folk still say Levein didn’t have a settled side due to injury, can we afford Stendel that leeway?

 

 

I'm all for Stendel. 

But in the context of this thread if we go down it will be on his watch and I can't see how a Hearts manager in this context survives that. 

 

 

 

 

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We need to play a back three until Souttar and Halkett are fit enough (if ever)

 

Consistency in the defensive lineup will help. Clare and Hickey/White as wing backs worth another shot.

 

 

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Pasquale for King
1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

I'm all for Stendel. 

But in the context of this thread if we go down it will be on his watch and I can't see how a Hearts manager in this context survives that. 

 

 

 

 

Quite possibly 👍🏽

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We don’t need to change formation or even the philosophy really. We just have to cover the glaring weaknesses within it. 
 

                            Bobby 
 

Smith.          Halkett.      Souttar.      Hickey. 
 

                    Sibbick    Irving 

Clare.                                                  Walker.
 

                         Naismith        
 

                            Boyce                      
 

4231. The back four stay exactly where they are and defend as a unit and in line. Press together and defend together.  If a right or left back goes, then the other stays and Sibbick or Irving drop back to keep the back 4 in shape. We can’t have every ball over the top a 2 vs 2, it’s suicide. Naismith, Clare and Walker interchange and press high up the park trying to win the ball for Boyce. Same again, when we have the ball, Sibbick or Irving go whilst the other stays. That way we are constantly in the shape and always have the overload. This is exactly how I think Stendel wants us to play. I watched him numerous times on Saturday calling for Smith or Irving to drop. He was constantly trying to get the players over to support and cover the wing back areas. When we lost the ball in those positions he was livid. We lost the ball on Saturday in positions where we had the overload and the cover.
 

Individual errors are costing us more than the shape. Smith doesn’t fling his boot at the first ball, Hearts have possession and Hamilton don’t score. If Halkett wasn’t running on treacle, he could’ve pressured 99. If bobby dives with his arms by his side, he saves it. If the linesman had flagged for offside at both goals. If Clare doesn’t make a suicide tackle. If Bobby actually attempted to save the penalty. Walker/Uche/Naismith/Boyce could take a chance. Donis doesn’t smash the ball out of play every opportunity he gets. The errors surrounding the basic, fundamentals of football are killing us. Yes the shape has its weaknesses but tell me a system that doesn’t. Celtic Park aside, although we more than competed for 45 minutes, every other game this has been our down fall. 
 

If Stendel continues to ignore these flaws then he’s every bit as bad as Levein. Everyone knows that he’s been working with one hand tied behind his back and he walked into a shit show. We all know that. He has however had loads of opportunities to drop Joel and he never. Joel cost us against St Johnston, he shouldn’t have started against Killie, he did and cost us again. He very nearly costs us at Falkirk. He then costs us at Celtic Park in a morale crushing 5-0, he is finally dropped. Halkett has been culpable as well. One of the killie goals, doesn’t track his man at the corner. Running on treacle on Saturday and his penalty at St Johnston. Stendel can’t ignore the growing case for Halkett to be dropped. You can add in Souttar with that. Clare has been class at right back but he is constantly caught to far up the pitch. We can’t continue to ignore that. Killies first goal comes from a corner won due to Clare being to

high up the park. The Rangers goal and the first celtic goal, all Clare’s side. Stendel has to adapt or die. If we fail to then we will be relegated. 

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9 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

This right here shows what you know about football, can I ask how much do you actually know about English football?. 

 

Then I put the question to you in Jurgen Klopps first season were did Liverpool finish, furthermore in Pep Guardiolas first season were did Man City finish?. 


Can you read?

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annushorribilis III
2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

I'm all for Stendel. 

But in the context of this thread if we go down it will be on his watch and I can't see how a Hearts manager in this context survives that. 

 

 

 

 

Well you'd expect the fans to show even a bit of the (misplaced ?)  loyalty that the fans and AB showed to CL during  the shambles of the last 2 years in particular. CL has pissed all the money away on many shit signings & ludicrous contracts and so there was nothing done about this mess in the last transfer window. Quite why a manager should be binned just because his predecessor left us skint and with a squad that has been gutted of just some of the dross that remains seems really odd to me when SO many fans were unstinting in their loyalty to CL. 

Happy for him to stay and start another glorious 5 year plan. 

Whether or not he chooses to stay is another matter , especially if relegated. 

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32 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Sorry, was too busy being argumentative and forgot to agree with this bit.


Oh you... I do feel better now though. 

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17 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


Can you read?

Yes I can read what you fail to understand is that it took time, for liverpool and man city to play the way they are playing, pep and jurgen didn't just come in and start ripping it up right away. 

 

You are being ignorant to this fact, it took Levein time to get things settled. 

 

How come you were willing to give him time but not stendel i don't get it? 

 

If we stay up we will have done well 👍, how come as soon as anyone had anything bad to say about Craig, you were always defending him yet your the  opposite for stendel? 

Edited by Bongo 1874
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1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Yes I can read what you fail to understand is that it took time, for liverpool and man city to play the way they are playing, pep and jurgen didn't just come in and start ripping it up right away. 

 

You are being ignorant to this fact, it took Levein time to get things settled. 

 

How come you were willing to give him time but not stendel i don't get it? 

 

If we stay up we will have done well 👍, how come as soon as anyone had anything bad to say about Craig, you were always defending him yet your the  opposite for stendel? 


You need to go back and actually read all my posts on this thread. I was making the exact same point that you are! I stated That it’s taken Liverpool 4 or 5 years to be able to play the system to it’s full potential. They needed key players in key positions. We simply don’t have time to do this. The simple reason that Stendel won’t get time is because we don’t have any time left. 11 games to go, bottom of the league and no sign of any improvement or any kind of learning curve from the new management team.

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1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

He’s still skulking about the corridors talking to players, I know that for a fact and should be removed from every aspect of the club. I’m sick of hearing about him too, doesn’t mean you can disregard the fact that the squad he assembled is incapable of playing any system or formation as they have shown all season. How would you have us set up?

 

2 hours ago, Rudy T said:

 

 

You can't say he has ZERO influence on what goes on, on the pitch, when he bought the majority of the players on it. Levein is hugely responsible for this mess. He's still at the club and should be long gone.

 

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact we're going down, I don't see where the points are coming from tbh. Perhaps if Sibbick and Harring return we'd have a chance but the majority of the teams in the league will have enough to beat us. Stendel needs to quickly find a formula to win however that's done - I can't see it however.

 

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

I don’t think he needs to tell them to play pish, they already do. Wee chats in the corridors, what do you reckon he’s saying to them? Asking about their Social media posts at Nando’s, I’m sure he’s right behind Daniel and loved telling his duds they had to go. I hadn’t read that about him supporting Stendel, he is prone to lying though. 
Must be awkward seeing him around, especially when some players have said it’s great being coached again.


Honestly this sinister bogeyman characterisation some of you are determined to create is about the most paranoid and delusional stuff I’ve ever seen on here. You’d think we were talking about the Child Catcher, John Wayne Gacy and ****ing Skeletor all wrapped in to one.

 

Hes got **** all to do with the performances on the pitch right now, other than his signings being at the club still. I’ll tell you what though, if we were to release Craig Levein’s players and Hamilton and Midden has the opportunity to pick them up on an affordable wage, do you honestly think they would turn that chance down?

 

Our current results are down to Stendel not getting a tune out of them, and the players not being able to play the way we are setting up.

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Just now, Mr Elwood P said:


You need to go back and actually read all my posts on this thread. I was making the exact same point that you are! I stated That it’s taken Liverpool 4 or 5 years to be able to play the system to it’s full potential. They needed key players in key positions. We simply don’t have time to do this. The simple reason that Stendel won’t get time is because we don’t have any time left. 11 games to go, bottom of the league and no sign of any improvement or any kind of learning curve from the new management team.

We can play the system maybe it just takes time for the players to fully understand it 👍

 

And who's fault is it that we don't have any time left, and these players confidence was shot to pieces, you weren't worrying about the position we were in a 11 games in?. 

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5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

We can play the system maybe it just takes time for the players to fully understand it 👍

 

And who's fault is it that we don't have any time left, and these players confidence was shot to pieces, you weren't worrying about the position we were in a 11 games in?. 


You can’t get relegated after 11 games. In Levein’s last few games we came from behind to win at a Easter Road, came from behind to knock Aberdeen out the League Cup and were the first team to take points off Rangers. Not sure the confidence was anywhere near as low as folk like to make out? 

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13 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

 


Honestly this sinister bogeyman characterisation some of you are determined to create is about the most paranoid and delusional stuff I’ve ever seen on here. You’d think we were talking about the Child Catcher, John Wayne Gacy and ****ing Skeletor all wrapped in to one.

 

Hes got **** all to do with the performances on the pitch right now, other than his signings being at the club still. I’ll tell you what though, if we were to release Craig Levein’s players and Hamilton and Midden has the opportunity to pick them up on an affordable wage, do you honestly think they would turn that chance down?

 

Our current results are down to Stendel not getting a tune out of them, and the players not being able to play the way we are setting up.

 

Are you suggesting CL should still be manager? Do you think he'd be doing any better than Stendel?

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Do we have enough centre backs to move to a back 3 and then use Clare and Walker(?) as wingbacks?

Then we can still bomb forwards the way Stendel wants but leave an extra man back to cover.

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5 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


You can’t get relegated after 11 games. In Levein’s last few games we came from behind to win at a Easter Road, came from behind to knock Aberdeen out the League Cup and were the first team to take points off Rangers. Not sure the confidence was anywhere near as low as folk like to make out? 

 

But we were bottom of the league and we'd won about 2 league matches in 40 games???

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1 minute ago, Cade said:

Do we have enough centre backs to move to a back 3 and then use Clare and Walker(?) as wingbacks?

Then we can still bomb forwards the way Stendel wants but leave an extra man back to cover.

 

Sibbick can play there and would probably make a huge difference with his mobility?

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2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


You can’t get relegated after 11 games. In Levein’s last few games we came from behind to win at a Easter Road, came from behind to knock Aberdeen out the League Cup and were the first team to take points off Rangers. Not sure the confidence was anywhere near as low as folk like to make out? 

Think it goes way back than just 11 games though mate 👍 unless you are willing to right off the two seasons before that. 

 

Tbf Stendel managed to do what Levein was never able to, and that's beat rangers. 

 

He got a draw against Aberdeen that should of been a win only Clare getting sent off stopped that. 

 

Levein knocked Aberdeen out on pens. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Rudy T said:

 

Are you suggesting CL should still be manager? Do you think he'd be doing any better than Stendel?


No. Far from it. What I’m saying, is:

 

1) Levein failed.

 

2) Now Stendel is failing.

 

Too many people have refused to move on from point 1) and are still trying to ignore point 2) being a different problem to point 1).

 

Trying to blame Levein for our current shite performances is a total cop out. It’s like folk were so swept up in the hysteria around Levein, they thought that removing him was more important than replacing him. Now when his replacement is failing, everyone is still too fixated on the Levein out stuff and they aren’t watching what’s going on with the new guy. (Not you - that last part).

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Just now, Mr Elwood P said:


Were we bottom?


10th, joint bottom on 12 points.

But you knew that already !

It was bad enough to see the back of Levein so let’s not quibble !

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2 hours ago, weehammy said:

Not disputing their effort mate, but I still think we’d have lost if it stayed 11 v 11.

As you say though, we move on.

Another way of looking at it is if the Hamilton boy hadn't handled the ball we would likely have scored. 

Going in at the break only 2-1 down with an early goal in the second half different story entirely. 

We battered them in the second half and missed enough chances to win comfortably. 

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Selkirkhmfc1874
19 minutes ago, Cade said:

Do we have enough centre backs to move to a back 3 and then use Clare and Walker(?) as wingbacks?

Then we can still bomb forwards the way Stendel wants but leave an extra man back to cover.

Smith, halkett and souttar 

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Selkirkhmfc1874
Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

We've also been top under CL. 

 

We weren't bottom when he was removed as manager. 

 

 

Let it go 

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1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

They play teams who generally pass it out. 

They are also very, very good. 

 

In Scotland, teams are happy to fire it into the corners, turn the defence and almost play a territory game. 

 

Pressing a team that goes direct is not as effective as pressing a team that insists on possession football. 

 

 

 

 

 

If a high press is that easy to overcome, how come Burnley don't win the EPL every year?

 

Whilst I agree with the calls for pragmatism, a large part of the reason that we currently concede so many goals, is that we are not particularly great at the pressing part either. Not pressing and a high line = soft goals conceded every game.

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Just now, Smith's right boot said:

We've also been top under CL.


The reason he got some time. Stendel hasn’t managed to put together a run yet - a winning one anyway.

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Nicholas Brody
2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:


That’s not when Levein left though is it?

 

You were talking about Leveins 'last few games' no?

 

Cherry picking a win, and two draws and leaving out the fact that he took us to the bottom of the league.

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1 minute ago, Nicholas Brody said:

 

You were talking about Leveins 'last few games' no?

 

Cherry picking a win, and two draws and leaving out the fact that he took us to the bottom of the league.


I was saying we weren’t bottom when he left. As another poster pointed out we were in 10th position which would now be a great position to finish in!

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Bazzas right boot
4 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Let it go 

 

Just stating a wee fact. 

Unsure why that annoys some. 

2 minutes ago, Nicholas Brody said:

 

You were talking about Leveins 'last few games' no?

 

Cherry picking a win, and two draws and leaving out the fact that he took us to the bottom of the league.

 

If CL taken us bottom, he then got us off bottom. 

 

He never left us bottom. 

 

Hopefully Stendel can get us off bottom after taking us there. 

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