Corruption in Scottish Football

[Jamhammer]

16 hours ago, Restonbabe said:

We need VAR. Simple. 

I honestly still think you'd see the same kind of nonsense we did Sunday from that goon. None of the fouls on Boyce given the other way would have been up for review. Both the the ridiculous challenges would have been upheld as yellows. The handball wouldn't have been given. (To be fair I haven't seen it in any of the highlights so not sure it was). It's not just the major decisions that kill us v the uglies it's the none fouls for us that are given for them and break up the play, stop us getting a hold of games. Plus Sportscene would probably just ignore it anyway and the same fear that governs refs would govern whoever is doing the VAR.

It couldn't hurt but I don't think it would change much

[N Lincs Jambo]

Corruption or incompetence? If the latter then both teams will be left feeling aggrieved at refereeing decisions. If the former, then just one. To any Hearts fan who seriously believes it is the latter could you please provide at least one example of a game between Hearts and either of the arse cheeks where we were actually the beneficiary of dodgy refereeing decisions and please don't give examples which happened if we were 4 or 5 down at the time? Cheers!

 

Ps I took a look at Bears Den after yesterday's game (fancied a bit of a gloat  ) and to a man they were saying that the ref had a good game. To me this means they got their usual supply of dodgy decisions.

[Neverforgetfiveone]

16 hours ago, jamb-oz said:

I thought our ref's were bad in the a-league but I was at the game yesterday and was absolutely astounded at how blatant and obvious the bias was, not even trying to hide it, especially being live on TV. 

 

 

 

I’ve been on about this since we hit the bottom, which is our fault admittedly but there is definitely an agenda directed by the SFA/SPFL to purposely give opposition teams the rub of the green, all the 50/50’s. 

 

I reckon this is so that if we are to be relegated our support, ticket sales, will massively boost the Championship clubs takings and drive interest in the division... 

 

when Dundee Utd come up and say Hamilton or St Mirren go down no one is watching that division! NO ONE!! If we go down there will be a big interest in the Division!

 

TV will also benefit! BBC would love us in that division....

[kila]

It is all the 50/50’s going to them, and the turning of a blind eye at their rough tackles while at the same time punishing Hearts.

 

The OF get a much easier ride from the officials despite their fan complaints who look at big decisions rather than all the wee ones during the game which help dictate the tide.

 

 

[Boab]

Just now, N Lincs Jambo said:

Corruption or incompetence? If the latter then both teams will be left feeling aggrieved at refereeing decisions. If the former, then just one. To any Hearts fan who seriously believes it is the latter could you please provide at least one example of a game between Hearts and either of the arse cheeks where we were actually the beneficiary of dodgy refereeing decisions and please don't give examples which happened if we were 4 or 5 down at the time? Cheers!

 

Ps I took a look at Bears Den after yesterday's game (fancied a bit of a gloat  ) and to a man they were saying that the ref had a good game. To me this means they got their usual supply of dodgy decisions.

I think it is a combination of both. Some seriously bad refereeing over the years. Some because they were cheats, others because they were really bad at their jobs.

 

Some will probably howl but after I’d sobered up after the 1998 Final....around Tuesday !.....I watched the whole thing again on TV and the first minute penalty tackle was a close thing. It would have been easy for Young to give a free kick on the line if he was tainted !

We deserved to win of course, and the foul on McCoist at the end was close, but the gods were on our side that day.

 

 

[John Findlay]

11 minutes ago, N Lincs Jambo said:

Corruption or incompetence? If the latter then both teams will be left feeling aggrieved at refereeing decisions. If the former, then just one. To any Hearts fan who seriously believes it is the latter could you please provide at least one example of a game between Hearts and either of the arse cheeks where we were actually the beneficiary of dodgy refereeing decisions and please don't give examples which happened if we were 4 or 5 down at the time? Cheers!

 

Ps I took a look at Bears Den after yesterday's game (fancied a bit of a gloat  ) and to a man they were saying that the ref had a good game. To me this means they got their usual supply of dodgy decisions.

There is an argument to say the penalty we got against Celtic in the semi final of 2012 was of the dubious variety. If we are brutally honest we would have been up in arms if it had been awarded against us.

[kila]

Just now, John Findlay said:

There is an argument to say the penalty we got against Celtic in the semi final of 2012 was of the dubious variety. If we are brutally honest we would have been up in arms if it had been awarded against us.

Ref got his windows smashed in and regretted it ever since (guessing)

[Rogue Daddy]

2 minutes ago, kila said:

Ref got his windows smashed in and regretted it ever since (guessing)

 

again, probably won't ever happen, but the case for non-national referees should be worth considering. No OF allegiance, and would probably live far enough away so as not to be on the end of their orcs tantrums, at not getting their own way.

[Dallas Green]

3 hours ago, John Findlay said:

There was a piece last year on the BBC Iplayer about Collum as he was the cup final ref. He mentioned that the coin they use for the toss was a gift from the New Zealand association of refs to the GLASGOW ASDOCIATION OF REFEREES OF WHICH I AM A MEMBER. That sentence alone should have disbarred him from the final as a Glasgow team was participating. MacDonald should never have got 2006 as an Edunburgh team was participating.

 

Is that program worth a watch?

[John Findlay]

19 minutes ago, Dallas Green said:

 

Is that program worth a watch?

No. It was only a 5 minute skit

[chubby1973]

15 hours ago, number witheld said:

Whatever happened to announcing where the ref was from before the match?

They stopped doing so they couldn't get their windows tanned by disgruntled sevco & celtic fans. 

[NB GIN]

17 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

We need more Tom English type folk in the SFA and the media, calls it as it is and is not intimated/worried what both of the arse cheeks opinions/agendas are. He’s far too good for the BBC up here. 

This is spot on 

[colinmaroon]

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

There is an argument to say the penalty we got against Celtic in the semi final of 2012 was of the dubious variety. If we are brutally honest we would have been up in arms if it had been awarded against us.

 

"Dubious" isn't the word I would use.  "Unlikely to be given v the Uglies, yes.  After all, there were two players who handled/armed the ball and, of course, that followed on from a blatant offside goal being given to Celtic.

 

 

[DETTY29]

1998 Cup Final

Hearts Penalty

- No hesitation from Willie Young that it was a penalty.

- None of the other officials could have inetrvened due to their proximity.

- I don't recall seeing an angle that was conclusive as to whether the foul was just outside or on or inside the line but Fulton did end up significantly inside the box due to pace he was running at.  It was an understandable decision to award the penalty.

- Under VAR, if used correctly I think the penalty should stand because no conclusive evidence an error had occured.

 

Old Rangers Penalty

- It has been accredited that Willie Young was indeed going to award the penalty but checked with his asst who didn't move from his spot towards the corner flag and therefore awarded a free kick instead.

- Our soon to be SFA CEO in the commentary said no penalty as contact was on the line.

- Under VAR the decision to award a free kick would have been overturned and a penalty awarded

 

2012 Cup Semi Final

- People seem to forget that there was a double hand ball.  The block by Ledley (which would definitely be a penalty now but even given, not given back then) and Wanyama movement of hand towards ball for some inexplicable reason but I'd say accidental.  It was after the second hand ball that Euan Norris pointed to penalty spot.  I don't think it has ever been made clear which one it was given for, but it is understandable that it was awarded due to the 2 hand balls. 

- I'm not sure what would have happened under VAR if looked at again however this offset by the fact that Hearts would already be in the better position of still being 1 up as Celtic's offside goal would have been chalked off instead of having to score a penalty.  We had already missed about half our penalties that season.  Scored the 2 that really mattered though.

- Norris lasted another year.

 

2019 Scottish Cup Final

I've said before that I've spoken to the new Head Of Referee Operations and that he wouldn't overturn if VAR and in his view a penalty.  Our best hope would be  Madden, Beaton, McLean or Dallas being the VAR official and telling Collum it was clear simulation and not to bother checking any monitor.

-

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by DETTY29

[Dallas Green]

54 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

No. It was only a 5 minute skit

 

Cheers, here was me thinking it was gonna be an in depth look at a scottish ref on cup final day 😂

[SomethingAboutObua]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

There is an argument to say the penalty we got against Celtic in the semi final of 2012 was of the dubious variety. If we are brutally honest we would have been up in arms if it had been awarded against us.

But they never mention their goal was offside, 2-1 win, 1 legitimate goal scored by us overall is still a 1-0 win to us. It’s this kind of blind hipocrisy they have, only see decisions for themselves. 

 

Other teams can look at decisions objectively and question if there really is a bias towards the OF by the total non fouls they get vs fouls they make that are ignored, that we see as fans. For them it’s just about complaining of not getting decisions for them and nothing else. If they looked at it without their green/blue tinted specs they’d surely see the ridiculous ratio of fouls they get. 

 

Agree with others that the decisions they get aren’t all resolved by VAR, eg the Boyce “fouls” wouldn’t get reviewed, last VAR one I can think of is Morelos’ offside goal at Tynecastle last year 

 

[colinmaroon]

1 hour ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

But they never mention their goal was offside, 2-1 win, 1 legitimate goal scored by us overall is still a 1-0 win to us. It’s this kind of blind hipocrisy they have, only see decisions for themselves. 

 

Other teams can look at decisions objectively and question if there really is a bias towards the OF by the total non fouls they get vs fouls they make that are ignored, that we see as fans. For them it’s just about complaining of not getting decisions for them and nothing else. If they looked at it without their green/blue tinted specs they’d surely see the ridiculous ratio of fouls they get. 

 

Agree with others that the decisions they get aren’t all resolved by VAR, eg the Boyce “fouls” wouldn’t get reviewed, last VAR one I can think of is Morelos’ offside goal at Tynecastle last year 

 

 

Pity VAR hadn't been at the St Johnstone game following that Rangers game.  Most ridiculous and blatant dive by a player who will no doubt be encouraged to fling himself down even more at Aberdeen.

[kila]

Corruption:

 

 

 

 

[Beni]

I tend to think it's more bias than corruption. That said, I remember someone doing a statistical analysis of the Scottish cup semi final draws before they were done in public. The chances of the OF avoiding each other as often as they did was tens of thousands to one. Not evidence of corruption of course, just very very very unlikely.

[Francis Albert]

After Rangers failed to properly register players for a decade and got away with it despite senior Rangers employees at the SFA and SPL being beneficiaries of EBTs themselves ... people still reject the very idea that Scottish football and those who.report on it are corrupt? Really?

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

After Rangers failed to properly register players for a decade and got away with it despite senior Rangers employees at the SFA and SPL being beneficiaries of EBTs themselves ... people still reject the very idea that Scottish football and those who.report on it are corrupt? Really?

The rule book went out the window when Rangers went bust.

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

7 hours ago, John Findlay said:

There is an argument to say the penalty we got against Celtic in the semi final of 2012 was of the dubious variety. If we are brutally honest we would have been up in arms if it had been awarded against us.

Seriously? There was nothing dubious about our penalty, and as others have said, their goal was offside. 

[braveheart]

No matter the standard of the refs we should only see them 2 times maximum per season.the same wee circle of west of Scotland "top" refs is corrupt .

[Francis Albert]

6 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

1998 Cup Final

Hearts Penalty

- No hesitation from Willie Young that it was a penalty.

- None of the other officials could have inetrvened due to their proximity.

- I don't recall seeing an angle that was conclusive as to whether the foul was just outside or on or inside the line but Fulton did end up significantly inside the box due to pace he was running at.  It was an understandable decision to award the penalty.

- Under VAR, if used correctly I think the penalty should stand because no conclusive evidence an error had occured.

 

Old Rangers Penalty

- It has been accredited that Willie Young was indeed going to award the penalty but checked with his asst who didn't move from his spot towards the corner flag and therefore awarded a free kick instead.

- Our soon to be SFA CEO in the commentary said no penalty as contact was on the line.

- Under VAR the decision to award a free kick would have been overturned and a penalty awarded

 

2012 Cup Semi Final

- People seem to forget that there was a double hand ball.  The block by Ledley (which would definitely be a penalty now but even given, not given back then) and Wanyama movement of hand towards ball for some inexplicable reason but I'd say accidental.  It was after the second hand ball that Euan Norris pointed to penalty spot.  I don't think it has ever been made clear which one it was given for, but it is understandable that it was awarded due to the 2 hand balls. 

- I'm not sure what would have happened under VAR if looked at again however this offset by the fact that Hearts would already be in the better position of still being 1 up as Celtic's offside goal would have been chalked off instead of having to score a penalty.  We had already missed about half our penalties that season.  Scored the 2 that really mattered though.

- Norris lasted another year.

 

2019 Scottish Cup Final

I've said before that I've spoken to the new Head Of Referee Operations and that he wouldn't overturn if VAR and in his view a penalty.  Our best hope would be  Madden, Beaton, McLean or Dallas being the VAR official and telling Collum it was clear simulation and not to bother checking any monitor.

-

 

 

On the 2012 penalty the ref indicated when he pointed to the spot that it was for the second hand ball by Wanyama. The Ledley hand ball (the only one noticed and analysed by the media at the time)in the rules of the time would have been soft but the Wanyama hand ball was clearly a penalty. That's what we appealed for and what the penalty was given for. Slow motion replays made that clear to anyone neither corrupt nor blinded by media propaganda.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Francis Albert

[DETTY29]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

On the 2012 penalty the ref indicated when he pointed to the spot that it was for the second hand ball by Wanyama. The Ledley hand ball in the rules of the time would have been soft but the Wanyama hand ball was clearly a penalty. That's what we appealed for and what the penalty was given for. Slow motion replays made that clear to anyone neither corrupt nor blinded by media propaganda.

Thanks.

 

Yep definitely not given till after Wanyama handball.

[N Lincs Jambo]

15 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

After Rangers failed to properly register players for a decade and got away with it despite senior Rangers employees at the SFA and SPL being beneficiaries of EBTs themselves ... people still reject the very idea that Scottish football and those who.report on it are corrupt? Really?

And there endeth the case for the prosecution. Nail on head!

[Vlad Magic]

I used to think it was corruption as in a direct instruction to the referees to officiate games V either side of the Old Firm in such way as to give them an advantage.

 

There has been countless examples of this on this thread and that’s just ones against us.

 

I think now rather than “corruption” it’s simply a case of “that’s how it’s always been” and “that’s how it will always be”.

 

I think some refs go about officiating games with the weight of expectation on them to give the OF everything so they do.

 

I’m no referee obviously but putting myself in their position, if the weight of expectation to referee a particular match in a certain way was so great, I would probably buckle and do it.

 

To sum up I just think it’s the easier option for them to give the OF every decision and not some ingrained corruption from within the game itself.

[Ex member of the SaS]

18 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

I tend to think it's more bias than corruption. That said, I remember someone doing a statistical analysis of the Scottish cup semi final draws before they were done in public. The chances of the OF avoiding each other as often as they did was tens of thousands to one. Not evidence of corruption of course, just very very very unlikely.

Been saying for years, give each team a number and use a lottery style machine to make the draws. See how many times A) The bigot twins play each other in the earlier rounds and B)See how often Sevco get a home tie.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

I used to think it was corruption as in a direct instruction to the referees to officiate games V either side of the Old Firm in such way as to give them an advantage.

 

There has been countless examples of this on this thread and that’s just ones against us.

 

I think now rather than “corruption” it’s simply a case of “that’s how it’s always been” and “that’s how it will always be”.

 

I think some refs go about officiating games with the weight of expectation on them to give the OF everything so they do.

 

I’m no referee obviously but putting myself in their position, if the weight of expectation to referee a particular match in a certain way was so great, I would probably buckle and do it.

 

To sum up I just think it’s the easier option for them to give the OF every decision and not some ingrained corruption from within the game itself.

The fact that referees who give "controversial" decisions against the OF have often had truncated careers at the highest level may also be a factor and an example of corruption IMO

[John Findlay]

18 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

The rule book went out the window when Rangers went bust.

Went out the window long before they went bust too.

[Vlad Magic]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The fact that referees who give "controversial" decisions against the OF have often had truncated careers at the highest level may also be a factor and an example of corruption IMO

 
I agree totally.

 

However I’m leaning more to my theory that it’s the refs themselves doing the favouring rather than following instructions.

 

Either way the refs are terrible and anyone outside the OF are on the receiving end of some disgusting officialdom.

[ToadKiller Dog]

I certainly think there is institutionalised bias towards the ugly sisters within the SFA .

Most so within the ref dept .

The Fyssas red card in the 3-2 Celtic game still gets to me as much as the Miko red . Balde only saw yellow, Maloney dived .changed the game ,arguably we should have held onto a 2 goal lead but that red gave them a way back .

That day pointed to the fact that to challenge and possibly win this league you need more than just a good team.

The refs dept allows bias to flourish because its closed and secretive and recruits to strongly from 2 areas .

But I blame the clubs owners for not challenging for change and being more worried about teams they see less than them getting a slice of their bit of the pie .

 

 

[niblick1874]

20 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

After Rangers failed to properly register players for a decade and got away with it despite senior Rangers employees at the SFA and SPL being beneficiaries of EBTs themselves ... people still reject the very idea that Scottish football and those who.report on it are corrupt? Really?

 

I'm wondering whether TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO Hearts (and everyone else) had a chance to vote on whether we should have a good look into what really went on with that.

 

Not aimed at you Francis. 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by niblick1874

[colinmaroon]

5 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

I used to think it was corruption as in a direct instruction to the referees to officiate games V either side of the Old Firm in such way as to give them an advantage.

 

There has been countless examples of this on this thread and that’s just ones against us.

 

I think now rather than “corruption” it’s simply a case of “that’s how it’s always been” and “that’s how it will always be”.

 

I think some refs go about officiating games with the weight of expectation on them to give the OF everything so they do.

 

I’m no referee obviously but putting myself in their position, if the weight of expectation to referee a particular match in a certain way was so great, I would probably buckle and do it.

 

To sum up I just think it’s the easier option for them to give the OF every decision and not some ingrained corruption from within the game itself.

 

I understand what you're saying but it is still corruption.

 

To choose to give an unfair advantage to the powerful, plus the cabal, secretive, unaccountable institutions of Scottish football, all are quite simply corrupt.

 

What has the outcry been like where NHS,  police etc., have tried to make sure that enquiries into poor standards, illegal activities remain inhouse?

 

The principle is the same at all levels of society.

 

 

 

[JamboAl]

Tonight:  The Rangers v Ross County

 

 

The Rangers are a Glasgow team

The match is being played at their home ground  in Glasgow

The ref comes from Glasgow.

 

Just saying.

[DETTY29]

49 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Tonight:  The Rangers v Ross County

 

 

The Rangers are a Glasgow team

The match is being played at their home ground  in Glasgow

The ref comes from Glasgow.

 

Just saying.

Robertson is Celtic apparently.

 

And Rangers Beaton takes St. Johnstone, Celtic game.

Edited January 29, 2020 by DETTY29

[OBE]

Bump!

 

Rangers Goldson on the deck, stops the ball from being cut across goal with his left arm...no penalty.