Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[SE16 3LN]

24 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

As you're fond of saying, there's a time lag. The effects of England's lockdown won't come through for weeks. 

We've been in worse restrictions for weeks and our numbers haven't budged. 

Not exactly as large parts of England, covering millions of people, had a closure of hospitality weeks ago and a partial closure months ago. These were combined with variants of the rule of 6. It doesn't seem to have had a huge impact although locally they are claiming some success. 

[Lone Striker]

This Danish mink farm infection is potentially a very bad omen.  Another species becomes infected and mutates the virus so that the effectiveness of the current  vaccines in development could be reduced.   Questions such as how did the virus get into the mink farm ......  and have humans already contracted the mutated strain ...... need to be studied quickly.   

 

(Incidental issue is why are the EU allowing  obscene  animal welfare/cruelty of caged mink purely for the fashion industry within a member state ...... yet getting angry at the UK  in case it drops it's high standards in the future ?   Hypocrisy at work  !!)

 

Just read the BMJ article about this. Apparently 12 folk have been identified as having one of these 5  mutated strains - all connected to the mink farm.  Danish parliament trying to stop the proposed mass cull of mink.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Lone Striker

[coconut doug]

38 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Check, then double check if those in hospital really need to be moved at all. As we didn't run out of beds and we had spare capacity, then don't be rushed or panicked into making decision, based on flawed projections, that you may well regret. Tested patients before making the decision as to who goes and who stays. Keep positive cases either in the hospital they are in or else move them to one of the pop up ones built specifically for Covid patients. If patients unable to be tested, why they could not be tested though, then treat them as positive case and isolate for appropriate period. 

If they insisted on sending remaining negative tested patients to Care homes, informed Care home residents of what was happening and allowed families who had relatives to make other arrangements if they were able or wanted to.

They could have tried to move all hospital patients testing negative into the same place, after first moving other residents about to create space. 

Under no circumstances just disperse them into care homes without testing. 

All of these could have been done, and maybe some were but as we are only the public, those in charge have decided we do not need to know. We only pay their wages after all. 

Finally, if finding you have made terrible decision, hold hands up immediately and admit it. Do not hold quick internal review and blame everyone else, making sure that you clear yourself of any liability. 

That okay for starters. If there are gaps, and there will be, get others with knowledge and experience to help me fill in those gaps. It's called teamwork and it does the job. 

 

 

We only had spare capacity because we moved people out of hospitals. We didn't know what the extent of the pandemic was going to be so it was absolutely necessary to act swiftly and err significantly on the side of caution. 

 Isolating large numbers of people requires resources not available to the NHS. Keeping those who test positive in hospital increases the likelyhood of hospital acquired infection among the most vulnerable.

  Making other arrangements in care homes is the responsibility of the care home. Moving people who are old and ill around risks their health and increases the spread of the virus particularly as staff and visitors will move too.

  There seems to be little evidence that moving people from hospitals to care homes caused a spectacular rise in death rates. The proportion of Covid deaths in care homes has changed very little and we still have about half our deaths there despite not having moved people into the homes from hospitals for many months. The infections would appear to be coming from somewhere else.

   You still haven't managed to convince me that there actually was a policy of moving positive tested individuals into care homes never mind demonstrating that the FM or anybody else was responsible for it. Have you considered that this movement might be a least worst option and that the decision would have been taken by clinicians?

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Scientifically the risk can never be zero but that doesn’t mean it should stop them describing the risk as negligible. Saying stuff like ‘there is still a risk’ is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading. As for encouraging bravado behaviour, I agree, people still need to hear the truth though. 

Media, particularly BBC, are falling over themselves to exaggerate every piece of fear that they can from public. We laugh, rightly so, at Fox news in US, and are served the same pile of shite from BBC. 

[Taffin]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

We both know what was meant in the words and sentences used.  The meteor comment could be understood by a 12 year old to be a lighthearted,  throw-away comment.  You tried to twist it at first.  If you can't conduct an honest discussion then it's your loss.  

 

How did I try to twist it? I made reference to newspaper articles reporting it being scare mongering too. Do you really think there would be a report saying to wear a mask if you go outside because there may be a meteor strike? Of course not, it was similarly light hearted.

 

Then off you went down the usual no integrity spiel simply because you didn't like it being pointed out that you didn't appear to know what the words you were using meant whilst you tried to make out I was stupid because you thought I'd taken what you said seriously.

 

All of that, simply because you can't accept that there was clearly a media drive to scare monger in order to drive compliance. 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

How did I try to twist it? I made reference to newspaper articles reporting it being scare mongering too. Do you really think there would be a report saying to wear a mask if you go outside because there may be a meteor strike? Of course not, it was similarly light hearted.

 

Then off you went down the usual no integrity spiel simply because you didn't like it being pointed out that you didn't appear to know what the words you were using meant whilst you tried to make out I was stupid because you thought I'd taken what you said seriously.

 

All of that, simply because you can't accept that there was clearly a media drive to scare monger in order to drive compliance. 

 

That's your perception I'm afraid.  I would be very confident that the vast majority of people saw no such scare mongering drive.

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Media, particularly BBC, are falling over themselves to exaggerate every piece of fear that they can from public. We laugh, rightly so, at Fox news in US, and are served the same pile of shite from BBC. 

It sadly seems to be how the news works. It’s more news worthy to run a story of an 18 year old on a life support machine than a story about the tens of thousands of 18 year olds who had mild symptoms after contracting the illness. 

[Taffin]

Just now, Victorian said:

 

That's your perception I'm afraid.  I would be very confident that the vast majority of people saw no such scare mongering drive.

 

That's also your perception too I'm afraid. I'd be very confident the vast majority would concede the media undertook a scare mongering drive.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Just now, coconut doug said:

 

We only had spare capacity because we moved people out of hospitals. We didn't know what the extent of the pandemic was going to be so it was absolutely necessary to act swiftly and err significantly on the side of caution. 

 Isolating large numbers of people requires resources not available to the NHS. Keeping those who test positive in hospital increases the likelyhood of hospital acquired infection among the most vulnerable.

  Making other arrangements in care homes is the responsibility of the care home. Moving people who are old and ill around risks their health and increases the spread of the virus particularly as staff and visitors will move too.

  There seems to be little evidence that moving people from hospitals to care homes caused a spectacular rise in death rates. The proportion of Covid deaths in care homes has changed very little and we still have about half our deaths there despite not having moved people into the homes from hospitals for many months. The infections would appear to be coming from somewhere else.

   You still haven't managed to convince me that there actually was a policy of moving positive tested individuals into care homes never mind demonstrating that the FM or anybody else was responsible for it. Have you considered that this movement might be a least worst option and that the decision would have been taken by clinicians?

What's the point. You are incapable of believing NS and her government made bad decision and are happy to blame the old folk for clogging up hospitals, care homes for being lax and anyone else in order to defend those in power in Scotland. 

NS and her government made decision and they have to live with consequences. I doubt they will lose one second of sleep over it, nor over any of the other decisions they have made. Cold hearted and focused on themselves. 

That's why they are politicians. 

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

Sick people in a hospital 'clogging up' the beds. How dare they?!

 

Old Dougie boy really showed his true colours in that post. Even the most ardent anti-lockdown posters on here never advocated just throwing sick people to the wolves. 

 

I don't advocate throwing sick people to the wolves, quite the contrary. I'm merely asking what the alternatives were and it seems that you think leaving them where they were was the best option. Trouble is Jonesy boy that the hospital space was needed for the ensuing pandemic. It's not sick people anyway it's old people, there is a difference. If they were sick they would be in hospital and getting treated. In this case to use the usual parlance they were bed blocking.

  I'm surprised you didn't immediately latch on to the obvious solution to this problem which would be to wheel them all along to the Standing Order which as everybody knows is a pub and the risk of catching Covid in one is almost zero. 

[SE16 3LN]

Test and protect data hasn't been as good as the SG said it was. Tut Tut

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

That's also your perception too I'm afraid. I'd be very confident the vast majority would concede the media undertook a scare mongering drive.

The vast majority of media saw chance to get themselves into spotlight and were assisted by scientists, advisors and politicians who saw a once in lifetime opportunity to make themselves headline news. 

Some outlets have tried to move on, but BBC are obsessed with Covid and are still projecting scare mongering tactics even now. 

Pretty sure they still have guys in PPE wandering around hospitals trying to get into ICU'S. 

[redjambo]

Scottish numbers: 11 November 2020

Summary

• 1,261 new cases of COVID-19 reported [+429]
• 64 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive [+25]
• 93 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-9]
• 1,235 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-4]
• 22,096 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results – 6.5% of these were positive [+11527, -3%]

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 minute ago, SE16 3LN said:

Test and protect data hasn't been as good as the SG said it was. Tut Tut

A project that size to be rolled out properly would take either a social infrastructure suck as Japan, South Korea or China or about 2 years to be built and properly tested. It had and has, next to no chance of complete. success. All 4 nations, or however many did own thing, made it more complicated. 

[redjambo]

Per-board per-100,000 case numbers:

 

Scotland 23 [+8].

 

Greater Glasgow 41 [+16], Lanarkshire 41 [+15], Ayrshire 22 [-2].

 

Fife 18 [-9], Forth Valley 18 [+5], Tayside 17 [+5], Lothian 16 [+3].

 

Others: less than 10.

[Taffin]

4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The vast majority of media saw chance to get themselves into spotlight and were assisted by scientists, advisors and politicians who saw a once in lifetime opportunity to make themselves headline news. 

Some outlets have tried to move on, but BBC are obsessed with Covid and are still projecting scare mongering tactics even now. 

Pretty sure they still have guys in PPE wandering around hospitals trying to get into ICU'S. 

 

In fairness, it is their job I guess. I don't blame them for it, nor do I contest that as Lone Striker points out it may well have helped to drive compliance in younger people and in turn reduce their chances of onwards transmission. I do think that was a conscious strategy though and it was achieved not through education, but instead fear targeted at younger people...a fear that wasn't representative of the actual risks.

[SE16 3LN]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

A project that size to be rolled out properly would take either a social infrastructure suck as Japan, South Korea or China or about 2 years to be built and properly tested. It had and has, next to no chance of complete. success. All 4 nations, or however many did own thing, made it more complicated. 

I agree, in fact is there are no winners in this situation.

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Scottish numbers: 11 November 2020

Summary

• 1,261 new cases of COVID-19 reported [+429]
• 64 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive [+25]
• 93 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-9]
• 1,235 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [-4]
• 22,096 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results – 6.5% of these were positive [+11527, -3%]

I know these aren't your figures but as you report them, does that mean 20,800 approx tests undertaken and came back negative? Why not report back saying 93.5% tests were negative and people were okay. It's almost like they avoid reporting anything in positive manner. 

[doctor jambo]

22 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

This Danish mink farm infection is potentially a very bad omen.  Another species becomes infected and mutates the virus so that the effectiveness of the current  vaccines in development could be reduced.   Questions such as how did the virus get into the mink farm ......  and have humans already contracted the mutated strain ...... need to be studied quickly.   

 

(Incidental issue is why are the EU allowing  obscene  animal welfare/cruelty of caged mink purely for the fashion industry within a member state ...... yet getting angry at the UK  in case it drops it's high standards in the future ?   Hypocrisy at work  !!)

 

Just read the BMJ article about this. Apparently 12 folk have been identified as having one of these 5  mutated strains - all connected to the mink farm.  Danish parliament trying to stop the proposed mass cull of mink.

Either that or having the “mink strain” could provide cross immunity from the “bat strain”, so we may be stifling a cure.

Small pox being a prime example, perhaps this is why Asia is largely unscathed - higher annual levels of other corona viruses provide some immunity?

 

Youd think someone would consider it

[redjambo]

Just now, Malinga the Swinga said:

I know these aren't your figures but as you report them, does that mean 20,800 approx tests undertaken and came back negative? Why not report back saying 93.5% tests were negative and people were okay. It's almost like they avoid reporting anything in positive manner. 

 

Because they're reporting the prevalence of Covid, not the lack of it.

 

You wouldn't report any disease by stating the number of people who don't have it.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

Because they're reporting the prevalence of Covid, not the lack of it.

 

You wouldn't report any disease by stating the number of people who don't have it.

No but they tested them and it meant that they were clear. Not as if it is random number, it is clearly definable. 

Anyway, not you doing reporting so not accusing you, just commenting. 

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

No but they tested them and it meant that they were clear. Not as if it is random number, it is clearly definable. 

Anyway, not you doing reporting so not accusing you, just commenting. 

 

No worries. Didn't think you were.

[Governor Tarkin]

46 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Careful. You might suffer from 'long SHC', which is a bit of a slow burner.

 

Underappreciated post imo. 

 

35 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

   You still haven't managed to convince me that there actually was a policy of moving positive tested individuals into care homes never mind demonstrating that the FM or anybody else was responsible for it. 

 

Whether there was a policy or not is immaterial. It happened, and it happened on NS's watch. The buck stops there. 

If she is the woman of integrity we'd all like to think she is she would fall on her sword. 

[Weakened Offender]

23 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I know these aren't your figures but as you report them, does that mean 20,800 approx tests undertaken and came back negative? Why not report back saying 93.5% tests were negative and people were okay. It's almost like they avoid reporting anything in positive manner. 

 

Why are you asking him, they're not his figures, he just reports them. It's almost like you go out of your way to be negative. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Weakened Offender

[Malinga the Swinga]

8 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Why are you asking him, they're not his figures, he just reports them. It's almost like you go out of your way to be negative. 

Please see my mail above where I said wasn't questioning Red and then the one from Red saying no problem. Other than that, carry on. 

[frankblack]

14 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Outrageous and abhorrent. 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, who the hell drinks in the Standing Order?  

 

Not anyone just now.

[frankblack]

Just now, jonesy said:

Warming to these policies.

 

🤔

[graygo]

15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Although, saying that - Wetherspoons' pubs are the kind of places that hoover up the type of people I don't want to be near in establishments I frequent. 

 

Late contender for the snobbiest post of the year award imo.

[GinRummy]

18 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Although, saying that - Wetherspoons' pubs are the kind of places that hoover up the type of people I don't want to be near in establishments I frequent. 

The Foot of the Walk is an absolute tragedy of a pub. Lots of beetroot faced solo drinkers staring blankly at bbc news 24 (with no volume). 
 

the David Macbeth moir in Musselburgh is ok though. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by GinRummy

[graygo]

13 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

The Foot of the Walk is an absolute tragedy of a pub. Lots of beetroot faced solo drinkers staring blankly at bbc news 24 (with no volume). 
 

the David Macbeth moir in Musselburgh is ok though. 

 

The Foot of the Walk is a hovel but there are over 900 pubs in the chain, thankfully they're not all like that. 

[Don Dan]

On the downside 😟

 

COVID-19: Number of UK coronavirus deaths passes 50,000, government figures show

 

 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

3 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

On the downside 😟

 

COVID-19: Number of UK coronavirus deaths passes 50,000, government figures show

 

 

 

Positive results and hospital admissions are leveling off and ICU numbers are dropping a bit. 

Deaths will take a few more weeks to drop off

[graygo]

9 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

On the downside 😟

 

COVID-19: Number of UK coronavirus deaths passes 50,000, government figures show

 

 

I'm not aiming this at you but you would think that 49,999 is nowhere near as bad as 50,000.

[graygo]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

TBF the only one I've drunk in regularly was Yr Hen Orsaf in Aberystwyth. Wasn't bad. My impression of the S.O. is that it went downhill quite badly in recent years, although given I was absolutely gubbed any time I went near the place in my younger years, it could well have always been shite.

 

You sound like the type of person I don't want to be near in establishments I frequent. 😉

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

What's the point. You are incapable of believing NS and her government made bad decision and are happy to blame the old folk for clogging up hospitals, care homes for being lax and anyone else in order to defend those in power in Scotland. 

NS and her government made decision and they have to live with consequences. I doubt they will lose one second of sleep over it, nor over any of the other decisions they have made. Cold hearted and focused on themselves. 

That's why they are politicians. 

 

The point is you made an accusation that Nicola Sturgeon is responsible for a policy that required old people to be moved from hospital to care homes even if they had tested positive for Covid.  I don't believe that is true and you have not so far been ab;e to show that it is.

 

 Another point is that the proportion of deaths in care homes has been quite stable and so i'm not sure that the policy of moving old patients to care homes has resulted in the "massive number of deaths that you allege.

 

  Nobody in government is blaming old folk for clogging up hospitals, care homes for being lax and neither am i. Any reasonable person can see that mistakes were made but how anybody could contrive that the victims in this i.e. the old people are to blame is beyond me. Nobody has done this but you think it alright to accuse them and me of doing so. I have accused care homes of not being as efficient as they could have been and some have had to be put in special measures because they are not up to the job. Nevertheless i do not accuse people of acting in bad faith or being cold hearted and focused on themselves, as you do and you should have the good grace to at least try and back up your allegations rather than than repeat that i am incapable of believing anything bad about the government.

[frankblack]

I see the "take away pints" scheme is being abused by students in Edinburgh's worst-hit covid region.

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-locals-hit-out-crowd-19263000

 

This is exactly why well run hospitality should not have been closed, and a massive own goal by the SG.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I see the "take away pints" scheme is being abused by students in Edinburgh's worst-hit covid region.

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-locals-hit-out-crowd-19263000

 

This is exactly why well run hospitality should not have been closed, and a massive own goal by the SG.

This.

[westbow]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I see the "take away pints" scheme is being abused by students in Edinburgh's worst-hit covid region.

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-locals-hit-out-crowd-19263000

 

This is exactly why well run hospitality should not have been closed, and a massive own goal by the SG.

Is it the Southern Bar that is supplying the booze? I think that is the nearest.

[GinRummy]

11 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Sometimes even I don't like the company when I drink alone.

 

   

Foot of the Walk for you then. Right up your street 😀👍

[the general]

A lot of the cafe bar type places that opened last week are closing already until we go down a tier

[Heartsmad1874]

7 minutes ago, westbow said:

Is it the Southern Bar that is supplying the booze? I think that is the nearest.

Could be a few, Greenmantle is close by also.

 

Kudos to them all for supporting local businesses.

 

  
 

[redjambo]

39 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

I'm not aiming this at you but you would think that 49,999 is nowhere near as bad as 50,000.

 

Indeed. On a separate issue, I'm looking forward to my 16,000th post on JKB very shortly. Milestones and all that...

Edited November 11, 2020 by redjambo

[Nucky Thompson]

50 minutes ago, frankblack said:

I see the "take away pints" scheme is being abused by students in Edinburgh's worst-hit covid region.

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-locals-hit-out-crowd-19263000

 

This is exactly why well run hospitality should not have been closed, and a massive own goal by the SG.

Good on the students for using their initiative.

 

I'm a wee bit annoyed that they weren't blasting tunes to annoy the curtain twitchers some more though

[Victorian]

The Scottish Government is torn into on a daily basis by the same people who defend,  make excuses for and encourage that kind of rule breaking.  No matter how you spin it,  it's a diabolical bit of hypocrisy.

 

The government has made mistakes and not every decision is correct.  Perhaps even some of the rules are imperfect.  But some of the rules are more obviously correct.  Generally rules are pointless when people are at will to opt in or out.

 

It's a certainty that there will be pub or restaurant owners who will be livid at seeing that.  People without a chip in the game should think twice about trivialising and validating it.  Especially those who let rip at the government for not getting things right.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

I see the "take away pints" scheme is being abused by students in Edinburgh's worst-hit covid region.

 

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-locals-hit-out-crowd-19263000

 

This is exactly why well run hospitality should not have been closed, and a massive own goal by the SG.

Whats the big deal? They have all probably had it months ago 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, jonesy said:

WTF did they expect to happen when they close pubs, bring in measures that prevent people from visiting each other and other 'nudges' and guilt trips?

 

Folk will gather, and folk will drink. We've done it since the beginning of time. Quite impressed these students are giving it a big FU to these nonsensical laws. Good luck to them.

 

 

👍👍

[Victorian]

This sort of thing is perfect for showing up the chancers from the genuine sceptics.  I see a few have already broken cover.

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

People without a chip in the game should think twice about trivialising and validating it.  Especially those who let rip at the government for not getting things right.  

 

[Nucky Thompson]

14 minutes ago, Victorian said:

The Scottish Government is torn into on a daily basis by the same people who defend,  make excuses for and encourage that kind of rule breaking.  No matter how you spin it,  it's a diabolical bit of hypocrisy.

 

The government has made mistakes and not every decision is correct.  Perhaps even some of the rules are imperfect.  But some of the rules are more obviously correct.  Generally rules are pointless when people are at will to opt in or out.

 

It's a certainty that there will be pub or restaurant owners who will be livid at seeing that.  People without a chip in the game should think twice about trivialising and validating it.  Especially those who let rip at the government for not getting things right.  

You really shouldn't take what random people post on a football forum so seriously 

 

[Victorian]

Students agitate to get their wee yoony experience.  Some students take the absolute ***** out of the chance they were given.  Students now demand to get home for Christmas.  Now the SG has been hamstrung into using a lot of time,  effort and resource to test them all before they bugger off home... and again when they come back after Christmas.

 

The SG having to jump through hoops to cater for a small section of society.  No wonder it's a tough job they've got.