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Seymour M Hersh

I see Israeli health officials are having major concerns with CoVid vaccinations of younger people. They have recorded, primarily in young men, figures 25 times higher than normal having had the covid vaccine (Pfizer I think) of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) some of whom have died.  Should we be getting very concerned how Universities and indeed the Government are rushing to require vaccinations of the young? 

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27 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

I don’t wear a mask outdoors. Never have done. I give folk a bit of space if it’s busy or on a  narrow bit of path. I only wear a mask in a shop pub or restaurant or if a stranger visits the house really. Thought that was what I was meant to be doing ?

Official line from the school is for parents to wear a mask during pick up and drop off. 

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redjambo
32 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I see Israeli health officials are having major concerns with CoVid vaccinations of younger people. They have recorded, primarily in young men, figures 25 times higher than normal having had the covid vaccine (Pfizer I think) of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) some of whom have died.  Should we be getting very concerned how Universities and indeed the Government are rushing to require vaccinations of the young? 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sees-probable-link-between-pfizer-vaccine-small-number-myocarditis-cases-2021-06-01/

 

Main points

 

. Israel’s Health Ministry has found a small number of heart inflammation cases observed mainly in young men, 16-30, who have received the Pfizer vaccine - 275 cases reported between December 2020 and May 2021 among more than 5 million vaccinated people.

 

. Pfizer is aware of the Israeli observations and has said that no causal link to its vaccine has been established.

 

. Most patients who experienced the issue spent no more than four days in the hospital and 95% of the cases were classified as mild.

 

. A U.S. CDC advisory group has recommended further study of the possibility of a link, but said that data from another database, the VSD, did not show that rates of myocarditis or pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination differed from expectations.

 

. The European Medicines Agency has said that heart inflammation after receiving the Pfizer vaccine has been no cause for concern as such incidents are at a similar rate to those in the general population. It added that young men were particularly prone to the condition.

 

. Israel had held off making its 12- to 15-year-old population eligible for the vaccines while the report was ongoing, but in parallel to publishing its findings gave the green light for vaccinating 12- to 15-year-olds as from next week, concluding that the efficacy of the vaccine outweighs the risk.

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redjambo

Scottish numbers: 12 June 2021

Summary

  • 1,030* new cases of COVID-19 reported [-74; up from 860 a week ago]
  • 26,650 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results [-1,913]
    • 4.1% of these were positive [=]
  • 2 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive [+2]
  • 3,477,378 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,402,700 have received their second dose [+18,315; +27,454]

*PHS are aware of an ongoing delay in the laboratory processing of specimens in the Glasgow Lighthouse lab, similar to that which was reported yesterday. This delay may lead to a smaller number of tests and cases reported during the previous 48 hours as compared to the figures reported prior to that period.

Edited by redjambo
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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
49 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I see Israeli health officials are having major concerns with CoVid vaccinations of younger people. They have recorded, primarily in young men, figures 25 times higher than normal having had the covid vaccine (Pfizer I think) of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) some of whom have died.  Should we be getting very concerned how Universities and indeed the Government are rushing to require vaccinations of the young? 

 

maybe not “very concerned” but the key point being we are still learning things about these vaccines and it would be wise to know what group you are in (ie underlying issues, special blood types etc) rather than just taking the total group as a measure of your individual risk

 

they’ll soon be getting tweaked as boosters to deal with new variants etc 🙀

 

 

 

 

 

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redjambo

Here are the latest trend stats. Any errors are due to me watching the Wales-Switzerland game while compiling the data.

 

                           
      7-day per-100,000 cases                
Council Area Tier WHO Today Yesterday     10 Jun 9 Jun 8 Jun 7 Jun 6 Jun ... 1 May
Scotland     110 107 +3   104 106 100 96 93 ... 22
Dundee City 2 4 273 266 +7   261 243 226 206 190 ... 13
South Ayrshire 2 4 212 184 +28   178 199 182 178 180 ... 25
Clackmannanshire 2 4 192 202 -10   198 206 202 211 194 ... 14
Edinburgh City 2 4 190 174 +16   181 180 175 172 166 ... 27
Midlothian 2 4 184 185 -1   178 172 158 142 118 ... 10
Glasgow City 2 4 155 159 -4   158 164 157 157 157 ... 33
Angus 1 4 151 153 -2   183 182 167 160 148 ... 7
Perth & Kinross 1 3 143 136 +7   136 137 109 96 82 ... 22
West Dunbartonshire 1 3 137 125 +12   110 98 87 69 66 ... 28
East Renfrewshire 2 3 136 140 -4   126 119 113 117 135 ... 24
East Ayrshire 2 3 127 132 -5   140 149 133 138 136 ... 45
East Dunbartonshire 2 3 127 120 +7   124 127 121 111 108 ... 51
Renfrewshire 2 3 127 126 +1   135 133 130 128 125 ... 20
East Lothian 1 3 122 113 +9   101 93 80 71 63 ... 5
West Lothian 1 3 119 114 +5   100 103 87 82 73 ... 26
North Ayrshire 2 3 112 86 +26   85 96 83 74 77 ... 17
North Lanarkshire 2 3 104 104 0   93 96 90 80 82 ... 40
South Lanarkshire 2 3 95 97 -2   87 95 92 86 85 ... 18
Stirling 2 3 61 70 -9   69 70 77 80 83 ... 11
Aberdeen City 1 3 57 54 +3   40 40 42 38 34 ... 13
Fife 1 3 57 54 +3   56 58 54 51 49 ... 32
Scottish Borders 1 3 51 43 +8   39 35 32 31 28 ... 6
Dumfries & Galloway 1 2 46 41 +5   33 30 25 24 14 ... 19
Inverclyde 1 2 41 31 +10   30 28 27 22 26 ... 15
Argyll & Bute 1 / 0 2 37 33 +4   28 29 20 19 20 ... 7
Falkirk 1 2 32 37 -5   42 43 52 51 51 ... 23
Aberdeenshire 1 2 25 23 +2   24 24 22 18 15 ... 8
Highland 1 / 0 1 11 14 -3   18 22 26 29 31 ... 9
Moray 1 1 10 15 -5   14 19 15 17 17 ... 65
Na h-Eileanan Siar 0 1 4 0 +4   4 4 4 7 7 ... 0
Shetland Islands 0 0 0 4 -4   13 17 17 17 17 ... 0
Orkney Islands 0 0 0 0 0   4 4 9 9 9 ... 0
                           
                           
7-day averages     Today Yesterday     10 Jun 9 Jun 8 Jun 7 Jun 6 Jun ... 1 May
Tests     24508 24621 -113   24392 24887 23462 23693 23145 ... 18484
Cases     856 832 +24   816 830 782 751 730 ... 171
Positivity rate %     3.7 3.6 +0.1   3.6 3.6 3.6 3.4 3.4 ... 1.1
Deaths     0.6 0.4 +0.2   0.7 1.1 1.1 1.1 1.3 ... 1.3
All Vaccinations     47384 48247 -863   48996 49098 49078 48884 48033 ... 45346
1st Dose     18791 19008 -217   19344 19453 19511 19312 18781 ... 6677
2nd Dose     28593 29239 -646   29652 29645 29567 29572 29252 ... 38669
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The Real Maroonblood
36 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Here are the latest trend stats. Any errors are due to me watching the Wales-Switzerland game while compiling the data.

 

                           
      7-day per-100,000 cases                
Council Area Tier WHO Today Yesterday     10 Jun 9 Jun 8 Jun 7 Jun 6 Jun ... 1 May
Scotland     110 107 +3   104 106 100 96 93 ... 22
Dundee City 2 4 273 266 +7   261 243 226 206 190 ... 13
South Ayrshire 2 4 212 184 +28   178 199 182 178 180 ... 25
Clackmannanshire 2 4 192 202 -10   198 206 202 211 194 ... 14
Edinburgh City 2 4 190 174 +16   181 180 175 172 166 ... 27
Midlothian 2 4 184 185 -1   178 172 158 142 118 ... 10
Glasgow City 2 4 155 159 -4   158 164 157 157 157 ... 33
Angus 1 4 151 153 -2   183 182 167 160 148 ... 7
Perth & Kinross 1 3 143 136 +7   136 137 109 96 82 ... 22
West Dunbartonshire 1 3 137 125 +12   110 98 87 69 66 ... 28
East Renfrewshire 2 3 136 140 -4   126 119 113 117 135 ... 24
East Ayrshire 2 3 127 132 -5   140 149 133 138 136 ... 45
East Dunbartonshire 2 3 127 120 +7   124 127 121 111 108 ... 51
Renfrewshire 2 3 127 126 +1   135 133 130 128 125 ... 20
East Lothian 1 3 122 113 +9   101 93 80 71 63 ... 5
West Lothian 1 3 119 114 +5   100 103 87 82 73 ... 26
North Ayrshire 2 3 112 86 +26   85 96 83 74 77 ... 17
North Lanarkshire 2 3 104 104 0   93 96 90 80 82 ... 40
South Lanarkshire 2 3 95 97 -2   87 95 92 86 85 ... 18
Stirling 2 3 61 70 -9   69 70 77 80 83 ... 11
Aberdeen City 1 3 57 54 +3   40 40 42 38 34 ... 13
Fife 1 3 57 54 +3   56 58 54 51 49 ... 32
Scottish Borders 1 3 51 43 +8   39 35 32 31 28 ... 6
Dumfries & Galloway 1 2 46 41 +5   33 30 25 24 14 ... 19
Inverclyde 1 2 41 31 +10   30 28 27 22 26 ... 15
Argyll & Bute 1 / 0 2 37 33 +4   28 29 20 19 20 ... 7
Falkirk 1 2 32 37 -5   42 43 52 51 51 ... 23
Aberdeenshire 1 2 25 23 +2   24 24 22 18 15 ... 8
Highland 1 / 0 1 11 14 -3   18 22 26 29 31 ... 9
Moray 1 1 10 15 -5   14 19 15 17 17 ... 65
Na h-Eileanan Siar 0 1 4 0 +4   4 4 4 7 7 ... 0
Shetland Islands 0 0 0 4 -4   13 17 17 17 17 ... 0
Orkney Islands 0 0 0 0 0   4 4 9 9 9 ... 0
                           
                           
7-day averages     Today Yesterday     10 Jun 9 Jun 8 Jun 7 Jun 6 Jun ... 1 May
Tests     24508 24621 -113   24392 24887 23462 23693 23145 ... 18484
Cases     856 832 +24   816 830 782 751 730 ... 171
Positivity rate %     3.7 3.6 +0.1   3.6 3.6 3.6 3.4 3.4 ... 1.1
Deaths     0.6 0.4 +0.2   0.7 1.1 1.1 1.1 1.3 ... 1.3
All Vaccinations     47384 48247 -863   48996 49098 49078 48884 48033 ... 45346
1st Dose     18791 19008 -217   19344 19453 19511 19312 18781 ... 6677
2nd Dose     28593 29239 -646   29652 29645 29567 29572 29252 ... 38669

👍😭

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JamesM48
16 hours ago, DETTY29 said:

If you are past 8 weeks from dose 1 and AZ pop into EICC (or Younger or Pyramids) from Monday and you should get taken.  If you aren't, I've been told guff info from a vaccination nurse.

 

If you do get taken please, make sure that your 19th appointment is cancelled, which you may need to do yourself.

 

 

Yes I managed to change it to another date 👍

22 hours ago, jonesy said:

You don't think consistently ultra-cautious behaviour and extreme risk-aversion is harmful? You don't think kids saying they prefer seeing their friends on a screen is preferable to meeting them at school because their parents have put the fear of god into them about something which will do them no harm isn't dangerous and worthy of both pity and contempt? You don't think forcing kids to don a mask to walk to school isn't normalising an unfounded fear of normal human interaction? You don't think seeing old couples - despite being double-jagged - still too terrified to go for a walk in case someone - also vaccinated - passes within a few feet of them for a couple of seconds on the pavement isn't the result of excessive and systematic fearmongering by the authorities?

 

I'm all for looking out for each other, which is why, as a society, our attention should, nay must, now shift to educating the remaining members of our communities who still fear for their lives that it's safe to come out from behind the mental sofa we were told would save us.

 

There's a sound reason the auld dear in third gear trundling down the motorway at 30mph gets pulled over and assisted by the police, while the average punter doing 75mph is allowed to carry on their merry way.

👍👍

15 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Great post. The fear of Covid, deliberately engendered by Govts worldwide, while rolling out more dangerous population and traffic control measures, is many times worse than the virus itself. The psychological affect on children and the elderly, in particular, along with the economic damage to the country is truly frightening.  

 

👍

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Ray Gin
2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I see Israeli health officials are having major concerns with CoVid vaccinations of younger people. They have recorded, primarily in young men, figures 25 times higher than normal having had the covid vaccine (Pfizer I think) of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) some of whom have died.  Should we be getting very concerned how Universities and indeed the Government are rushing to require vaccinations of the young? 

 

Should we be very concerned about 0.005% being affected, and of those 0.005%, 95% only being mild cases?

 

I'd say no. 

 

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Smithee
3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I see Israeli health officials are having major concerns with CoVid vaccinations of younger people. They have recorded, primarily in young men, figures 25 times higher than normal having had the covid vaccine (Pfizer I think) of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) some of whom have died.  Should we be getting very concerned how Universities and indeed the Government are rushing to require vaccinations of the young? 

 

25 times higher? Source?

What I'm seeing is that it's at the same rate as usual in the same demographic as usual and there isn't much concern at all 

Edited by Smithee
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Smithee
1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes I managed to change it to another date 👍

👍👍

👍

 

Covid friend

friend1.jpg

 

Maybe you can explain the jump from me walking down the street wearing a mask to I'm harming myself and possibly my family, seeing as you're agreeing with the post

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Nucky Thompson

Great to see a big crowd at the Denmark v Finland game. 

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DETTY29
2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Yes I managed to change it to another date 👍

👍👍

👍

Sorry, not made myself clear.

 

If it has been 8 weeks since your first AZ dose, you can jump the queue for your second and go to EICC from Monday, as a walk in.

 

All good though if new date and appt venue suits.

 

 

Edited by DETTY29
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Ray Gin
37 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Covid friend

friend1.jpg

 

Maybe you can explain the jump from me walking down the street wearing a mask to I'm harming myself and possibly my family, seeing as you're agreeing with the post

 

Causing far greater harm than Covid. Sure, there are over 128k confirmed Covid deaths in the UK and zero mask-related deaths. But don't let evidence get in the way of blind prejudice. 

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JamesM48
1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Covid friend

friend1.jpg

 

Maybe you can explain the jump from me walking down the street wearing a mask to I'm harming myself and possibly my family, seeing as you're agreeing with the post

 

5A266FB1-4CF5-4E5C-B22F-0B0B8A26AD06.gif

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Smithee
3 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

5A266FB1-4CF5-4E5C-B22F-0B0B8A26AD06.gif

Ok, but how am I harming myself and possibly my family if I wear a mask down the street?

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CavySlaveJambo
2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Should we be very concerned about 0.005% being affected, and of those 0.005%, 95% only being mild cases?

 

I'd say no. 

 

Also consider the ancestry of the population of Israel. It is one that actually increases the risk for something genetic being triggered.  
 

In other news This seems to back up the findings from the Covid Symptom Study as to who is actually getting Covid right now 

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Enzo Chiefo

I would hope that, today, with what has happened at the Euros that Covid can be given a contextualised downgrade to the minimal threat level that it presents,  to a minority of the population.  Thousands of youngsters with sniffles do not represent "cases"

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MoncurMacdonaldMercer
1 hour ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

Also consider the ancestry of the population of Israel. It is one that actually increases the risk for something genetic being triggered.  
 

 

 

:cornette_dog:

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Ray Gin
18 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I would hope that, today, with what has happened at the Euros that Covid can be given a contextualised downgrade to the minimal threat level that it presents,  to a minority of the population.  Thousands of youngsters with sniffles do not represent "cases"

How is what happened today related in any way? 

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3 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Covid friend

friend1.jpg

 

Maybe you can explain the jump from me walking down the street wearing a mask to I'm harming myself and possibly my family, seeing as you're agreeing with the post


giphy.gif

 

I'm convinced once this is over, the mask decriers will start on air bags and seat belts before eventually becoming full-on coal-rollers. When Gammon TV has been on air for a couple of weeks, at least we'll be able to trace the origin of the critical thinking right back to the source. 
 

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Enzo Chiefo
1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

How is what happened today related in any way? 

Context Raymondo, context. There's a big wide world out there, Covid-free.👍

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Nucky Thompson
1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

How is what happened today related in any way? 

Maybe that a super fit guy could have died without contracting Covid???

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Smithee
3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Context Raymondo, context. There's a big wide world out there, Covid-free.👍

:what:

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Enzo Chiefo
26 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


giphy.gif

 

I'm convinced once this is over, the mask decriers will start on air bags and seat belts before eventually becoming full-on coal-rollers. When Gammon TV has been on air for a couple of weeks, at least we'll be able to trace the origin of the critical thinking right back to the source. 
 

While the left wing dafties that have poisoned university and academic life for decades will still not accept that there ARE bad people, everyone is NOT equal and you CAN offend others without closing down debate. As for communism, well, anyone who thinks that, despite the decades of real life evidence, it's credible, really is a lost cause.

Fox UK TV will bring a balance to the mms and I, personally,  can't wait.

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Savage Vince
1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I would hope that, today, with what has happened at the Euros that Covid can be given a contextualised downgrade to the minimal threat level that it presents,  to a minority of the population.  Thousands of youngsters with sniffles do not represent "cases"

 

You do try so hard to be noticed on this forum, particularly on this thread, so here you go. You've been noticed. 

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Enzo Chiefo
6 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Maybe that a super fit guy could have died without contracting Covid???

Exactly NT. Covid is the least of most folks worries

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Enzo Chiefo
1 minute ago, Savage Vince said:

 

You do try so hard to be noticed on this forum, particularly on this thread, so here you go. You've been noticed. 

Would rather avoid folk like you ..

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Ray Gin

A man dies playing football and has to be revived, therefore Covid-19 concerns are invalidated. That's where you're now going with this?

 

Bizarre path to go down, but you crack on.

 

Edited by Ray Gin
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Enzo Chiefo
8 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

A man dies playing football and has to be revived, therefore Covid-19 concerns are invalidated. That's where you're now going with this?

 

Bizarre path to go down, but you crack on.

 

For "invalidated" replace with "put into perspective " and you will have nailed it👍

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Nucky Thompson
2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

A man dies playing football and has to be revived, therefore Covid-19 concerns are invalidated. That's where you're now going with this?

 

Bizarre path to go down, but you crack on.

 

Context. Young fit people die every day, but still the obsession is with old and fat people dying with a virus.

Now most of them aren't dying anymore because of vaccines 

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Smithee
13 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Context. Young fit people die every day, but still the obsession is with old and fat people dying with a virus.

Now most of them aren't dying anymore because of vaccines 

Isn't the obsession more with trying to suppress the virus so it doesn't mutate into something that really will cause problems?

 

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Nucky Thompson
1 minute ago, Nunya Business said:

I suppose it's better than "mental health is the REAL pandemic".

Mental health must be an issue now. I don't have any mental heath issues, but I found myself struggling really badly in the Winter just passed

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Enzo Chiefo
2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Isn't the obsession more with trying to suppress the virus so it doesn't mutate into something that really will cause problems?

 

Even though it appears to be mutating into something that will cause less problems? 

Why haven't the revised symptoms -runny nose, headache etc not been publicised and flogged to death? Is it because they are more akin to the common cold?

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Nunya Business
2 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Mental health must be an issue now. I don't have any mental heath issues, but I found myself struggling really badly in the Winter just passed

 

I genuinely wonder if there was this much resistance, mis-information and downright pig headedness when they started vaccinating people against Polio.

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Smithee
Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

Even though it appears to be mutating into something that will cause less problems? 

Why haven't the revised symptoms -runny nose, headache etc not been publicised and flogged to death? Is it because they are more akin to the common cold?

 

It doesn't evolve into one thing, there's thousands of variants been identified already, with only the more significant ones making the news.

 

Millions and millions of generations with slight mutations all the way make it increasingly likely that at some point there'll be a virus that vaccinations don't protect against and/or is much more deadly.

 

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JamesM48
1 hour ago, Gizmo said:


giphy.gif

 

I'm convinced once this is over, the mask decriers will start on air bags and seat belts before eventually becoming full-on coal-rollers. When Gammon TV has been on air for a couple of weeks, at least we'll be able to trace the origin of the critical thinking right back to the source. 
 

 

CC507827-7E3D-41E8-BCDE-763AA41F5296.gif

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Enzo Chiefo
1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't evolve into one thing, there's thousands of variants been identified already, with only the more significant ones making the news.

 

Millions and millions of generations with slight mutations all the way make it increasingly likely that at some point there'll be a virus that vaccinations don't protect against and/or is much more deadly.

 

Virus in mutation shocker. You do realise that flu mutates regularly too. Don't believe the media generated fear, just a word of advice👍

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Smithee
3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Virus in mutation shocker. You do realise that flu mutates regularly too. Don't believe the media generated fear, just a word of advice👍

Didn't you ask if there was any evidence of the virus mutating and evolving recently?

 

Yes, yes you did.

 

None so blind

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Enzo Chiefo
Just now, Smithee said:

Didn't you ask if there was any evidence of the virus missing and evolving recently?

 

Yes, yes you did.

 

None so blind

The more transmissible a virus gets, the weaker it becomes.  That's the reality although the govt have only publicised one side of the equation.  Again, I ask why we are not hearing about the virus evolving -mutating if you like - in to the common cold? 

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Enzo Chiefo

Odds of catching Covid unvaccinated...1 in 2225. After 1 dose...1 in 7500. After 2 doses ...1 in 22500. Even if you catch it, it doesn't affect the vast, vast majority of people in any way.

 

Do we pull up the duvet and hide for the rest of our lives, just to "staaaay safe" or live? Mmmm

 

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JimmyCant

Having been very compliant for over a year and often been dismayed at those who just flat out refused to comply, I’m now of the view that there is no longer any justification or basis or benefit in continuing any form of restriction in this country. This includes people who have had double dose vaccinations being allowed to travel freely anywhere they want and for any reason they want.

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redjambo
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

Isn't the obsession more with trying to suppress the virus so it doesn't mutate into something that really will cause problems?

 

 

It's not worth the bother, Smithee. Quite a few people refuse to recognise this, despite it having to be mentioned ad nauseam.

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The Mighty Thor
6 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

It's not worth the bother, Smithee. Quite a few people refuse to recognise this, despite it having to be mentioned ad nauseam.

Which is remarkable given that we've had 3 different, and increasingly virulent, variants in 15 months. 

It's almost like the virus is changing to target people as the available host groups reduce. What's the chances?

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12 hours ago, Smithee said:

Ok, but how am I harming myself and possibly my family if I wear a mask down the street?

You are perpetuating the fear and excessive caution we now need to move on from. And, possibly (assume we're talking about folk in general, not you, Smithee), your mask hygiene may be such that you are exposing yourself to higher levels of the pathogen.

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Suppose 24hr surge vaccinations are off the table. 

 

Government's really have to ramp up the process in the next 4 weeks, & WM have to facilitate this.

 

Or Summer is done. And so are people's livelihoods. If they aren't already.

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Governor Tarkin
11 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

It doesn't evolve into one thing, there's thousands of variants been identified already, with only the more significant ones making the news.

 

Millions and millions of generations with slight mutations all the way make it increasingly likely that at some point there'll be a virus that vaccinations don't protect against and/or is much more deadly.

 

 

Might as well just top ourselves now then.

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