Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It’s not about being honest or not.  Why talk about it at all in the middle of a pandemic.  What possible benefit to public health can there be to speculate (which is all it is) about a hypothetical view that Scotland would have done better if independent.  It’s absolutely totally not needed and adds nothing at all to the challenge we face here and now.  It’s irresponsible in my opinion.  

 

It's honest to express an opinion.  Especially so in the knowledge that it will inevitably enrage a certain section of people and leave one open to accusations of dishonesty and impartiality.  I think there are some aspects of governmental action that would have been easier and better achieved with independence.  Certainly not the benefits of the vaccine of course.

 

Consider the fact that members of SAGE often appear on television,  prefaced with a comment that they are speaking in a personal capacity,  always at their request.  These people are so wary of criticism that they wear multiple hats.  It's more honest and genuine to speak freely and treat the public as intelligent enough to discriminate for themselves.  If they confuse personal beliefs with official policy then it's their fault.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Victorian

[Ray Gin]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Fair point let’s come at this another way. Are you prepared to admit that being part of the United Kingdom has been a real benefit in terms of the number of vaccines we have in Scotland and as result how many people we have vaccinated as a percentage of population compared to almost every other country in the world?

 

It has been good on the vaccine front so far - about the only thing the UK government has managed to do well through this whole sorry ordeal.

 

It is impossible for me to say how different it could have been if Scotland was independent. Would we have been excluded from having the opportunity to buy our own share of vaccines? That seems unlikely.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Ray Gin

[DETTY29]

31 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You just need to have an ounce of common sense to know that the country cannot sustain throwing money at all and sundry indefinitely.  It has to be paid back and will be, by future generations.  As for Sridhar, her comments should be treated with a large degree of scepticism as she is fond of pursuing a political agenda that most other "experts " choose not to. Her elimination strategy has already been superseded by Whitty and Vallance confirming that the virus will be endemic. You can turn yourself into a hermit country or just embrace the strategy and realise that there will be cases, spread and illness but, life goes on.

 

What elimination strategy?

 

I think that's the public misconstruing what she is saying. 

 

Or she hasn't articulated well enough her thoughts.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by DETTY29

[Nucky Thompson]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

 Would we have been excluded from having the opportunity to buy our own share of vaccines? That seems unlikely.

 

Yes, if we were still part of the EU.

[Victorian]

Just now, DETTY29 said:

What elimination strategy?

 

I think that's the public misconstruing what she is saying.

 

 

 

There isn't an elimination strategy.  That's an invention of the anti-authoritarian,  anti-public health super-zealots like Enzo.  He can't find a genuine strategy to denigrate so he has to make one up.  A total cloud dweller.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

It has been good on the vaccine front so far - about the only thing the UK government has managed to do well through this whole sorry ordeal.

 

It is impossible for me to say how different it could have been if Scotland was independent. Would we have been excluded from having the opportunity to buy our own share of vaccines? That seems unlikely.

 

Furlough has been rather handy too.

 

 

[Ray Gin]

4 minutes ago, Candy said:

Furlough has been rather handy too.

 

 

 

We'd have control over our own furlough scheme as an independent nation.

 

[Victorian]

Furlough is a spectacular success of the UK gvt.  Scotland could have done fairly similar but would have been much more exposed to risk from the scale of borrowing to fund it.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

We'd have control over our own furlough scheme as an independent nation.

 

Possibly, but you'd said vaccines were about the only good thing the UK govt had done. I was simply pointing out that they'd also arranged and funded the furlough scheme.

 

Credit where its due surely?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

20 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

What elimination strategy?

 

I think that's the public misconstruing what she is saying. 

 

Or she hasn't articulated well enough her thoughts.

 

 

What actually is the UK strategy though? Or Scotland's?

 

The official strategy here is "aggressive suppression" which is effectively aiming for elimination but not quite stating that since there will be the odd positive case. We have 11 in the community here in Melbourne this morning due to this quarantine leak and now some people are calling for a lockdown again because of that. I think if it was 11 anywhere in the UK at the minute people would be raising glasses. It shows how mindsets are being impacted.

[DETTY29]

23 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

What actually is the UK strategy though? Or Scotland's?

 

The official strategy here is "aggressive suppression" which is effectively aiming for elimination but not quite stating that since there will be the odd positive case. We have 11 in the community here in Melbourne this morning due to this quarantine leak and now some people are calling for a lockdown again because of that. I think if it was 11 anywhere in the UK at the minute people would be raising glasses. It shows how mindsets are being impacted.

Flippantly, try and appease as much of the population we can.

[Enzo Chiefo]

37 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

There isn't an elimination strategy.  That's an invention of the anti-authoritarian,  anti-public health super-zealots like Enzo.  He can't find a genuine strategy to denigrate so he has to make one up.  A total cloud dweller.

I tend to ignore most of your posts but as an aficionado of countering fake news, I have to correct you. The word "eliminate" has been used regularly by Sturgeon and the Devi woman who appears to pull the strings in her back. If they don't actually support that flawed strategy then perhaps they should choose their words more carefully.  They would be well advised to follow Boris's lead and consider formulating a road map out of this authoritarian nonsense,  instead of allowing it to drag on purely to further their own personal agendas. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

24 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

What actually is the UK strategy though? Or Scotland's?

 

The official strategy here is "aggressive suppression" which is effectively aiming for elimination but not quite stating that since there will be the odd positive case. We have 11 in the community here in Melbourne this morning due to this quarantine leak and now some people are calling for a lockdown again because of that. I think if it was 11 anywhere in the UK at the minute people would be raising glasses. It shows how mindsets are being impacted.

A good point, Geoff. At some point , all nations are going to have to accept that elimination or elimnation-lite is a pipe dream. Roll out the vaccination programme and accept that the virus will circulate,  in the knowledge that the majority of people that catch it will suffer no or mild symptoms only.

[sadj]

3 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

Flippantly, try and appease as much of the population we can.

Accurate

[Enzo Chiefo]

52 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

What elimination strategy?

 

I think that's the public misconstruing what she is saying. 

 

Or she hasn't articulated well enough her thoughts.

 

 

I agree . She hasn't articulated her thoughts well enough. Publishing an exit strategy would be a start

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yeah, it’s a fair point that I made a mistake comparing her to Whitty given the different nature of their roles.

 

You are also right that she is free to express opinion but I just feel being so explicit on topics like an independent Scotland could do better is clearly going to alienate half of the population and I can’t help feel that is counter productive during a pandemic when we want the views of experts, which she is, to be listened to and followed.  Just feel there are some things she could and should hold back until this is all over.  

Not disagreeing with your point but to suggest she alienated half the population is an exaggeration when I reckon 90% of the population have no idea who she is (or at least no idea of her role)

[Taffin]

So the all knowing adviser to the Scottish government that apparently everyone should listen to is in favour of a zero-covid strategy, yet it's not the Scottish government strategy.

 

Are we saying it should be the strategy, but isn't? Or that in this instance we shouldn't listen to Devi Sridhar? Or that we don't actually know what the Scottish government strategy is?

[Brighton Jambo]

13 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

Not disagreeing with your point but to suggest she alienated half the population is an exaggeration when I reckon 90% of the population have no idea who she is (or at least no idea of her role)

Fair!

[Nookie Bear]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Fair!

I imagine a decent percentage of the nation believe Nicola and Boris decide what to do with zero advice ! 

[Victorian]

50 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

I tend to ignore most of your posts but as an aficionado of countering fake news, I have to correct you. The word "eliminate" has been used regularly by Sturgeon and the Devi woman who appears to pull the strings in her back. If they don't actually support that flawed strategy then perhaps they should choose their words more carefully.  They would be well advised to follow Boris's lead and consider formulating a road map out of this authoritarian nonsense,  instead of allowing it to drag on purely to further their own personal agendas. 

 

You don't ignore posts.  You're kidding nobody there.  Apart from yourself as usual.  Safe trip back to your cloud.

[Taffin]

7 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

She is one voice, she only advises, she doesn’t decide policy. Surely you can separate the two? Should we not have various different views and opinions advise the government? 

 

Of course we should.

 

However, we've just been given the mPhil and Dphil lowdown of why Devi Sridhar knows best but on the same hand the complete refute that Scotland is following an elimination strategy. Given its what she wants, who are we to listen to in this instance? 

 

Personally I do think the Scottish Government have an elimination strategy, but they're unable to fully execute by virtue of being part of the UK.

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

You don't ignore posts.  You're kidding nobody there.  Apart from yourself as usual.  Safe trip back to your cloud.

💤

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Anyone who listened to some of Nicola Sturgeon’s briefings in the summer would know what the SG desired strategy was. 
 

Im no fan of NS, but she clearly held her council when the UK government wanted to open and she didn’t. It will be interesting to see what happens in next few weeks. 

 

It was quite clearly a zero-covid strategy imo, as per her suggestion that the UK nations unite around elimination of the virus. It was also recognised by SAGE that it was the strategy of NI and Scotland.

 

Why it's no longer the strategy? I don't know. I must be honest, I thought it still was, but not living in Scotland means I don't pay as much attention and get most of my info from here or family back home.

 

Yeh, it'll be fascinating to see how the UK and NS play it when it comes to restrictions reviews. 

[Shanks said no]

[Shanks said no]

[Dennis Reynolds]

15 minutes ago, The Frenchman Returns said:

 

Wow. Quite something seeing it like that. Pwoud of us Edinburgers.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

We'd have control over our own furlough scheme as an independent nation.

 

Lol what money ? 

2 hours ago, Brian Dundas said:

If we were going independent we could find our own furlough schemes. 

Lol as above fantasy island 

1 hour ago, Brian Dundas said:

Anyone who listened to some of Nicola Sturgeon’s briefings in the summer would know what the SG desired strategy was. 
 

Im no fan of NS, but she clearly held her council when the UK government wanted to open and she didn’t. It will be interesting to see what happens in next few weeks. 

She will have to converge with U.K. policy or won’t get any furlough money . That’s the only thing dictating her policy it’s not “the science “ 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

7 hours ago, fancy a brew said:

 

The same Carl Heneghan who was so badly sidelined that he was able to meet Boris Johnson and RuIshi Sunak, and talk them out of an autumn circuit breaker lockdown as advised by Sage?

That Carl Heneghan?

 

Of course subsequent events have shown Heneghan's 'evedince based' approach of 2nd wave denial to be bollocks, resulting in a longer lockdown with more deaths than if he had been sidelined.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/14/herd-immunity-boris-johnson-coronavirus

 

 

 

 

 

people talking of confirmation bias and then exhibit that very thing (not you brew - that I’ve noticed anyway)

 

 

 

im going to try to not do that - just put forward an alternative view

 

the likes of (my hero) heneghan wanted the government to consider opinions and proposed solutions from a broader range of scientists - that in theory sounds like a good thing to me

 

if mr heneghan has got this one sadly wrong no-one should be surprised or shocked - with issues of such complexity it is understood that no individual or single group (see point above) will have all the right answers all the time - that’s largely why consultation and peer review exists - so interpretation of supposed mistakes as defining moments can betray a lack of understanding of the processes involved

 

he appears to have been able to ‘sell’ his wrong idea better than the others could ‘sell’ their right idea so complicit in the eff-up are boris and his experts plus the real experts who as part of “the science” couldn’t ‘sell’ the right answer

 

mr heneghan and his fellow experts appear to be more concerned with the picture including covid not just a picture of covid - that includes globally and a time horizon of greater than a few months - so judging them over a short-period of time on pretty much covid only while everyone’s free to do it again betrays a bit of lack understanding of their intentions (for good or bad)

 

he also proposed a lockdown at Christmas - my interpretation of his interview was that he feared punters will not follow restrictions for a long period of time and he predicted things would go seriously tits-up in jan so suggested limiting the time of lockdown but locking down hard at the point of most effect ie december

 

coming out of lockdown is a function of going into lockdown (unless we you stay locked down forever - who knows) - lives saved during lockdown and lives lost on the way out they all need counted

 

 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

17 minutes ago, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

 

people talking of confirmation bias and then exhibit that very thing (not you brew - that I’ve noticed anyway)

 

 

 

im going to try to not do that - just put forward an alternative view

 

the likes of (my hero) heneghan wanted the government to consider opinions and proposed solutions from a broader range of scientists - that in theory sounds like a good thing to me

 

if mr heneghan has got this one sadly wrong no-one should be surprised or shocked - with issues of such complexity it is understood that no individual or single group (see point above) will have all the right answers all the time - that’s largely why consultation and peer review exists - so interpretation of supposed mistakes as defining moments can betray a lack of understanding of the processes involved

 

he appears to have been able to ‘sell’ his wrong idea better than the others could ‘sell’ their right idea so complicit in the eff-up are boris and his experts plus the real experts who as part of “the science” couldn’t ‘sell’ the right answer

 

mr heneghan and his fellow experts appear to be more concerned with the picture including covid not just a picture of covid - that includes globally and a time horizon of greater than a few months - so judging them over a short-period of time on pretty much covid only while everyone’s free to do it again betrays a bit of lack understanding of their intentions (for good or bad)

 

he also proposed a lockdown at Christmas - my interpretation of his interview was that he feared punters will not follow restrictions for a long period of time and he predicted things would go seriously tits-up in jan so suggested limiting the time of lockdown but locking down hard at the point of most effect ie december

 

coming out of lockdown is a function of going into lockdown (unless we you stay locked down forever - who knows) - lives saved during lockdown and lives lost on the way out they all need counted

 

 

Did anyone follow restrictions at Xmas? I live in a cul-de-sac where we have an old witch that has members of her family visit every day since the 1st lockdown and a drug dealer who seem's to think lockdown is just for him to be able to punt more.

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Lol what money ? 

Lol as above fantasy island 

She will have to converge with U.K. policy or won’t get any furlough money . That’s the only thing dictating her policy it’s not “the science “ 

Wow. Now I have full confirmation you're a unionist . Oh dear. 

[ri Alban]

@Nucky ThompsonHow many people do you have to infect unt your happy or are you addicted to being a traveller. 

[mrmarkus1981]

9 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

The thing for me about holidays is not that we should all rush abroad as I accept that this year that might be a sacrifice we have to make it’s the view from some people that any form of holiday is an absolute luxury that people shouldn’t be talking about. 
 

For many people who have been absolutely knocking their pan in for a year in hugely difficult circumstances the opportunity for a break from it all is probably one of the main things keeping them going.  A proper break from the stresses of work and home life is not some nice to have it’s an essential part of many peoples mental and physical well-being especially after a year like this.  

I had two days off last year. I 100% want a chuffing holiday/break 👌

[Victorian]

6 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Chris Whitty et al have been very non-political.

Devi Sridhar in comparison seems like Tom, of Tom and Jerry, stepping into as many mousetraps as Nicola pushed her onto. 

 

Chris Whitty is a civil servant.  On the government payroll.  He can't be political.

[Brighton Jambo]

34 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Chris Whitty is a civil servant.  On the government payroll.  He can't be political.

Doesn’t seem to stop Nicola Sturgeons chief of staff and she is a civil servant.  

[Governor Tarkin]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Or she's not white. 

 

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Wow. Now I have full confirmation you're a unionist . Oh dear. 

 

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

@Nucky ThompsonHow many people do you have to infect unt your happy or are you addicted to being a traveller. 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Or she's not white. 

It’s ironic that the person who so frequently and casually throws around racist terms on this thread then thinks others may be racist.  You use more racist terminology on this thread than any other poster.  

[ri Alban]

10 year prison sentence for superspreaders. Thought it was harsh, now, it should be life. 

[Governor Tarkin]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

10 year prison sentence for superspreaders. Thought it was harsh, now, it should be life. 

 

Have anyone in mind? 

[Taffin]

Do we know what causes some people to be superspreaders but not some others yet?

[Governor Tarkin]

5 minutes ago, Taffin said:

Do we know what causes some people to be superspreaders but not some others yet?

 

The amount of shite they talk.

[Victorian]

41 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Doesn’t seem to stop Nicola Sturgeons chief of staff and she is a civil servant.  

 

Who? Steedman? Never seen her make political points.  

[Governor Tarkin]

16 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

All ‘naw’ voters I think

 

We need more naw voters imo.

[Brighton Jambo]

There is no road map for Scotland as she will wait for the UK one on the 22nd then will critique it, criticise it and find a way to adapt something similar but tweaked to inject more caution.  So predictable.

 

Next she will want to say she wants furlough extended knowing it won’t be, why? Simply to create yet another division and grievance with the UK government.  She knows the social and economic damage that’s being done but the opportunity to stoke grievance is just to great.  
 

Another example, she talked about elimination and a zero Covid policy yet this is not being pursued seriously but any other major European counties and she knows with the interconnected nature of the Uk and Europe it is not a realistic approach . Even the WHO don’t advocate that approach for Europe.  So of course it’s the one she advocates as again it creates a division with the UK.  
 

It’s as tiresome as it is predictable and watch the next few weeks.  That will be her playbook.  Even Wales are talking about opening up not our Nicola . 

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Or she's not white. 

Accusing someone if being a racist, whilst in other threads using racist terminology is some going, even for you. Still, not unexpected. 

[Ray Gin]

11 hours ago, Candy said:

Possibly, but you'd said vaccines were about the only good thing the UK govt had done. I was simply pointing out that they'd also arranged and funded the furlough scheme.

 

Credit where its due surely?

 

Countries across the world did the same thing, the UK is not unique in this.

[Ray Gin]

8 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Lol what money ? 

Lol as above fantasy island 

She will have to converge with U.K. policy or won’t get any furlough money . That’s the only thing dictating her policy it’s not “the science “ 

 

LOL the UK gov is 2 trillion in debt. 

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

8 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

There is no road map for Scotland as she will wait for the UK one on the 22nd then will critique it, criticise it and find a way to adapt something similar but tweaked to inject more caution.  So predictable.

 

Next she will want to say she wants furlough extended knowing it won’t be, why? Simply to create yet another division and grievance with the UK government.  She knows the social and economic damage that’s being done but the opportunity to stoke grievance is just to great.  
 

Another example, she talked about elimination and a zero Covid policy yet this is not being pursued seriously but any other major European counties and she knows with the interconnected nature of the Uk and Europe it is not a realistic approach . Even the WHO don’t advocate that approach for Europe.  So of course it’s the one she advocates as again it creates a division with the UK.  
 

It’s as tiresome as it is predictable and watch the next few weeks.  That will be her playbook.  Even Wales are talking about opening up not our Nicola . 

Until she gets "whacked " by Alex Salmond.

[Nookie Bear]

11 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

There is no road map for Scotland as she will wait for the UK one on the 22nd then will critique it, criticise it and find a way to adapt something similar but tweaked to inject more caution.  So predictable.

 

Next she will want to say she wants furlough extended knowing it won’t be, why? Simply to create yet another division and grievance with the UK government.  She knows the social and economic damage that’s being done but the opportunity to stoke grievance is just to great.  
 

Another example, she talked about elimination and a zero Covid policy yet this is not being pursued seriously but any other major European counties and she knows with the interconnected nature of the Uk and Europe it is not a realistic approach . Even the WHO don’t advocate that approach for Europe.  So of course it’s the one she advocates as again it creates a division with the UK.  
 

It’s as tiresome as it is predictable and watch the next few weeks.  That will be her playbook.  Even Wales are talking about opening up not our Nicola . 

Yep. Page 1 of Nicola’s COVID playbook is playing the sensible Scot role. Very little original thought though. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

LOL the UK gov is 2 trillion in debt. 

 

So you whine about austerity, despite governments having a duty to be austere, and debt. WOW. Just goes to prove there isn't such a thing as a free lunch. The chickens from the Barnett Consequential farm are now coming home to roost.

[mrmarkus1981]

12 minutes ago, Barack said:

"The Times leads on a plan being considered by ministers to keep social distancing restrictions in place until at least the autumn.

The newspaper understands the government's route out of lockdown is based on the assumption that people will have to wear face masks and remain a metre apart for months."

 

Never had the Times down to have their inside information correct before, during Covid-19.

 

Assumption. Being the mother of all ****-up's, I believe...?

Ive been compliant from the start, working from home, following all the rules and guidelines.

 

If this turn out to be true then i'm chucking it, they can ram it as far as i'm concerned. Of course i'll wear masks and whatnot but i'll be going to see my family